Appendix: poor laws, 25 February 1831

Die Veneris, 25° Februarii 1831.

The Marquess of Salisbury in the Chair.

[227]

The Reverend Thomas Whateley is called in, and examined as follows:

Where do you reside?

At Cookham, in Berkshire. Half the Town of Maidenhead is in that Parish. It is on the Confines of the County.

How long have you resided in that Part of the Country?

Turned of Three and thirty Years.

Is the Parish you reside in a large Parish?

A very large one.

Do you know the Number of Acres?

To speak in round Numbers, 7,000.

Do you know the Population?

The Population, in the Year 1821, was 2,734; I believe it is rather turned of 3,000 now. There are 640 or 650 Houses in the Parish.

What is the principal Part of the Land; Arable or Meadow Land?

Chiefly Arable; there is some Meadow Land on the Borders of the Thames.

Do you know the Amount of Poor Rates which were collected last Year in that Parish?

1s. 6d. in the Pound.

On what Valuation?

On the Valuation of 1£. an Acre to the Arable Land, 40s. an Acre to the Meadow Land, and 5s. an Acre for the Great Tithe. The Land lets from 30s. to 40s. an Acre, independent of Tithe. The Houses in the Parish are rated at Two Thirds of the Value; but it falls short of the Two Thirds; so that the Parish is rated very far below that Proportion.

Are there many People out of Employment in your Parish?

I think, in the Course of the Year, there has been perhaps from Six to Ten, or it may be a Dozen.

Able-bodied Men?

Able-bodied Men. I think I have rather over-stated that; perhaps I might say Eight, during the Frost and while the Snow was upon the Ground. I have prepared a History of each Family in the Parish, from Six Weeks old to the oldest Person in it (producing it). The Town of Maidenhead is a very large Town; it is a Corporation; and it has a Chapel entirely independent of the Vicar, and it appoints its own Chaplain; so that there is a very large Population which, though they are included within my Parish, are not under my Jurisdiction at all; and as they are Three Miles off, it is almost impossible for me to be so well acquainted with them as I could wish to be.

Do you include those in the 3,000?

Yes, and in the Number of Houses; but the taking the Account of such a Town as Maidenhead, so thronged with Population, is almost impossible.

The Witness produces the Account made out by him.

[228]

Can you inform the Committee what is the Rate that the Farmers in that Parish have paid their Labourers previous to the late Disturbances?

From 10s. to 15s. a Week: 10s. a Week for a single Man, who goes with Horses; and 15s. a Week for a Man who is thrashing Wheat. I have taken the Account of the Farmers in the Parish; and I have before me an Account of the Labourers of One Farm in the Parish, which will serve as a Criterion to the others.

Do you mean their Day Wages?

I mean their Day Wages, 10s. a Week; the 15s. a Week is for thrashing Wheat by the Quarter: 10s. a Week is the usual Earnings of a Carter's Man at Day Labour.

There are some married Men probably at Day Wages; is there any Difference in their Wages?

There is no Difference in the Wages for Day Labour.

When you say a Labourer who goes with Horses, do you mean a Carter?

Yes.

What do they give the other Labourers?

They have the same.

Have you a Statement of the Price of Labour in any One Farm in your Parish?

I have. This is the Statement of Labour in One Farm in the Parish. I dipped into the Farmer's Book, and took it out myself.

The same is delivered in and read, and is as follows:

When was the Labour so paid for?

It was in the present Winter, just before the Special Commission.

Have you any Reason to believe that the Price of Labour has been increased since the Disturbances?

I am sure it has not in my Parish.

Do not you consider that the Labouring Classes are well off in your Parish?

I think they are better off than I have ever seen them since I have known them. In the Year 1793, and for several Years before that Period, the Rate of Wages was 8s. per Week, and Wheat sold at 16£. per Load; now Wheat sells at from 17£. 10s. to 18£., and Wages are 10s., while all Sorts of Linen and Calico are not a Third of the Price they were at in the above Year of 1793.

Do you attribute that to the good Management of the Parish?

I do.

Have you prepared any Statement upon that Subject?

I have.

Have the goodness to read the same?

[229]

The System of Management introduced by the Select Vestry of the Parish of Cookham has been attended with very beneficial Effects both to the Rate Payer and to the Poor. To the former it has saved in Eight Years up to Lady Day last, compared with the preceding Eight Years, no less a Sum than 15,008£. 12s. 6d. To the latter it has been equally beneficial, by introducing Habits of Frugality, Industry and Providence, which have been strongly marked by their beneficial Effects. Only One Bastard Child has been registered in either of the Two last Years. The System is simple, and may be accommodated to the Circumstances of most Agricultural Parishes. Its leading Features are the Employment of the able-bodied Poor, who apply for Relief, at low Wages and at hard Work by the Piece, showing them that the Parish is the hardest Taskmaster and the lowest Paymaster they can apply to. Never giving any thing in aid of Labour, Rent or Rates. Dividing the Paupers in the Workhouse into Two Classes: the old, infirm and impotent form the first; the idle, improvident and vicious constitute the second. To the former is allowed an ample Supply of Butcher's Meat and other suitable Food; to the second Class nothing but Bread and Cheese. None are allowed to absent themselves from the Workhouse, or to receive Visitors within its Walls, without an express and written Order from an Overseer. Every possible Encouragement is given to honest Industry, Providence and Frugality, by the Establishment of a Saving Bank, a Friendly Society, a Lying-in Charity, and all other Means that can be devised. Young Persons going to Service are allowed an Outfit of Clothes; and a Member of the Friendly Society is always received by the Select Vestry with marked Attention. I cannot help adding, that during the late Troubles there has been no Fire, no Riot, no threatening Letter, in the Parish. In the midst of a District that has been particularly disturbed, Cookham and White Waltham (where a similar System has been adopted) have entirely escaped, although in Cookham there are several Thrashing Machines, and the only Paper Mill has been newly fitted up with Machinery. The Poor of Cookham have subscribed during the last Summer for the Purchase of Coals, which were delivered to them in November, 121s. They have purchased Linen, Calico and other Clothing during the Year, at Prime Cost, to the Amount of 160£. The Friendly Society (which insures to a subscribing Member during Sickness 8s. a Week, and 5£. for the Funeral in case of Death,) consists of about 100 Members. To a Penny Club, within the Year, in the Village of Cookham and its immediate Neighbourhood, has been subscribed 48£.; and the Contributions to the Saving Bank have been uniform and regular, and amounted at Lady Day last to the Sum of 3,544£. 7s. 1d. In speaking of the Money the Poor have expended in Clothing, I should say that they have bought their Clothing of me; therefore it is only that Part of the Parish over which I have any Superintendence. I mention that lest I should be supposed to be speaking of the whole Parish: sometimes I am speaking only of that Part which is not within the Corporation of Maidenhead.

Are the Rates higher in that Part of the Parish which is under the Corporation of Maidenhead?

No; the Rates of the Parish are the same, and the Management of the Parish is the same; but any thing of Charity, such as selling the Poor Clothing at Prime Cost, or any thing relating to private Charities, refers only to that Part of the Parish over which I have the Superintendence; not that within the Corporation of Maidenhead: they have their own Clergyman, and they have a Subscription for Coals and other Things there of which I know nothing.

What is the Price of Fuel in that Part of the Country?

From 1s. 6d. to 1s. 8d. a Bushel; in the Subscription for Coals there is 121s. put in, which insures to the Poor 121 Bushels. I paid the Difference between the 1s. and the 1s. 6d., which I am enabled to do by the Kindness of Sir William Pepys, my Brotherin-Law.

They have an Advantage from Charity?

They have an Advantage in Fuel; they put in that in the hopes of obtaining an Advantage; and they have an Advantage in Clothing, inasmuch as they are enabled to pay for the Clothing when it suits their Convenience; and I can go to a better Market than they do. I sell it for what it costs me; it costs me nothing but the little Trouble that attends it.

Is it the Practice of your Parish to bind out Persons as Apprentices?

Hardly ever; there have been One or Two Instances, but very seldom.

Can you state the Premium generally given?

I cannot.

[230]

Have you a Statement of the comparative Amount of the Poor Rates in your Parish previous to the Select Vestry, and subsequent?

I have.

Will you have the goodness to put it in?

The same is delivered in and read, and is as follows:

N.B.—£338 is the Average of County Rates, Church Rates, Law Expences and Salaries, for the Years 1823-24, 1824-25, 1825-26.

The Witness also delivers in an Extract from a Statement of the Poor Rates for the County of Berks, taken from a Paper printed by Order of the House of Commons, entitled "Local Taxation," calculated in Peck Loaves, as in the former Case.

The same is read, and is as follows:

The Witness then delivers in the Accounts of the Parish Expenditure in the Parish, which are read and are as follow:

[231]

A List of Persons who have received regular Weekly and Occasional Relief from the Overseers of the Parish of Cookham, from 25th March 1824 to 25th March 1825.

[233]

[234]

[235]

[236]

[237]

[238]

[239]

Have you a Poorhouse in your Parish?

Yes.

Under what Act of Parliament is that?

It is the common old-fashioned Poorhouse, not under any Act.

What are the Regulations of your Friendly Society?

They are the usual Regulations. 8s. a Week is allowed to a poor Man disabled from Illness, and 5£. for a Funeral.

Are they on Mr. Becher's Calculations?

They are. There is no meeting at Public Houses, or any thing of that kind.

How long has the Benefit Club existed?

Only as long as the Select Vestry; it was instituted in the Second Year of the Select Vestry by the Members of it; about Eight Years ago.

It has not failed for Want of Funds?

No; the Funds are very strong.

Do you not conceive that a Friendly Society when under good Regulations is beneficial to the Poor?

The most beneficial that can be.

Do you find the Poor are disposed to subscribe to a Benefit Society?

Yes. It was instituted by the Farmers, and is managed by them, except that the Labouring Classes are Collectors; but they shew no Jealousy of the Interference of their Superiors; on the contrary, they find that it recommends them to their Notice.

Have you any Fund in addition to the Weekly Subscription given by the Farmers?

Several of the Farmers are Members. I am a Member of the Friendly Society, among others, and my Subscription aids the Funds, but I contribute no more than the other Members, and I should be entitled to the same Benefit as other Members.

Is the Amount of Contribution limited?

Yes; 15d. a Month.

You state that there is a Penny Club established in your Parish?

That was established by Sir George Young's Sister, a little Girl, who, when she left the Country, turned it over to Mrs. Whateley. I mention that to shew that so small a Contribution produces so large a Sum. They take out the Amount of their Subscriptions in Clothing; they may take it back, or spend it in Clothing.

The Population of that Parish is not beyond the Means of Employment?

There are very few out of Employment now, but there used to be Sixty before the Select Vestry.

Do you consider that the Select Vestry has had beneficial Effects upon your Parish?

It has reduced the Rate from about 3,000l. to 1,100l.

Has your Parish appointed a permanent Overseer?

Yes.

Do you find that very beneficial?

Very much so; and the Workhouse is very beneficial too, for we find very few of the Poor like to come into the Workhouse, who would try every Trick to get a Weekly Allowance in Money.

When the dissolute are in the Workhouse, you state that they are not allowed to go out without Permission of the Overseer?

Yes.

How do you enforce that Regulation?

The Door of the Yard is kept locked, and no Pauper in the Workhouse can go out without the Door being opened by the Keeper of the Workhouse.

[240]

Have you a Governor of the Poorhouse?

Yes; and the Deputy Overseer is likewise Governor of the Workhouse, as it happens; but we sometimes have had a separate Person.

Does the Governor of the Workhouse contract for the Maintenance of the Poor?

Yes, for the Maintenance of those in the House; giving in a Bill of Fare.

What is the Rate of Cottage Rent?

It is very high inded.

What is the Average?

I can hardly say the Average; there are some 6l. 10s. to 7l. and some as low as 3l.

Have they good Gardens?

In the Part of the Parish where I reside they have very good Gardens; in the Town of Maidenhead none at all.

Do they pay their Rents out of their Wages?

Yes; they have no Assistance from the Parish; and they all pay the Poor Rate.

They pay as high as 6l. Rent for Cottages and Gardens?

I am sorry to say as high as 6l. 10s. without Gardens; that is in the Town.

What Extent have they of Garden in Cookham with their Cottages?

They have very good Gardens in the Hamlet called Cookham Town.

Have they a Quarter of an Acre, or Half an Acre?

Sometimes as much as that, and sometimes less; it is an exceedingly rich Soil, and full of Fruit Trees. I think in all that Part of the Parish they almost paid their Rent by their Fruit.

Has any Assistance been given to the Labouring Classes in your Parish by giving them an Allotment of Land?

None at all.

Would you suppose that the Neighbourhood of Windsor has taken off any of your superfluous Population?

Not at all.

You say that the Select Vestry has lowered the Rates from 3,000l. a Year to 1,100l.?

The Poor's Rates in the Year 1812 were nearly 4,000l.

You have also added that you think there were a greater Number of Poor out of Employ before the Select Vestry than now; how do you conceive that the Select Vestry have provided Employment for them?

They have provided Employment by setting them to hard Work, at low Wages, by the Grate — by the Piece. The Consequence was that they found Work for themselves. We gave them a Piece of Ground to trench, hard gravelly Ground; and many of the Farmers thought we should trench the whole Parish; but I believe we never trenched quite Half an Acre.

As soon as they were sent to work they went away and got Work?

Yes. There was One Man, who was a Postillion, and he was about Sixty Years old, with a very short Jacket and a plaited Shirt; he had married a Barmaid of about Eighteen, and had One Child; and he came to the Parish for Relief, expecting to have a Weekly Allowance. We asked him how he came to be out of Employment; he said he had had a few Words with his Master. We recommended him to have a few more, and to try whether he could not make up the Difference, for that we had nothing for him except some trenching, which we were afraid he would dislike. He went away; we never heard any thing of him from that Day to this.

You attribute the great Number of Persons who were out of Employment at that Time to their being permitted to remain idle?

[241]

Yes; they were sent to the Gravel Pits. In the adjoining Parish of Wooburn, where the Riots were very extensive and ruinous, where the Paper Mills were destroyed, which is divided from Cookham only by the Thames, they have now Sixty-five People out of Employment on the Roads. Our Rates are 1s. 6d. in the Pound; at Wooburn they are 10s. or 12s. in the Pound; and so all the Way to Berkhampstead — all the Way down to the Hoo.

You have stated that the Poor fare much better at Cookham, and are maintained at much less Expence; what Reason can you give why the same Plans are not adopted in the adjoining Parishes?

I can give no Reason except that I believe it wants a little Firmness and a little continued Exertion; and what is every body's Business is nobody's. They attend now and then at the Vestry, and then cease to attend.

Have you observed that the Morals of the Poor have improved by this Management, as well as their Condition?

So much so that those who were very disorderly Persons are very much the reverse. We have had but One Bastard Child in the Parish the last Year, and only One the Year before.

Do they marry very early in that Parish?

I think they do not marry quite so improvidently as they used to do; sometimes there are very early Marriages.

Do you think that the setting them to work has induced them not to marry so early?

The Parish refusing them Relief.

How are the Farmers in the Parish?

They are all very respectable Persons. We have no Gentlemen of large Landed Property resident in the Parish; the Landlords live at a Distance. The Farmers are all remarkably liberal, and very well-informed Men for their Stations in Life.

Are they large Farms, or small?

Considerable Farms; there are about Seventeen Farms about 300 Acres to a Farm.

Under your Plan, there has been no Emigration thought of, or at all necessary?

No Measure of the kind has been suggested.

Have the Rents been lowered?

Not at all. I do not believe that any one Farmer has had any Reduction of the Rents for the last Twenty Years. I have never heard of one.

It is good Land?

It is good Land; some of it is thin Land; but I believe the whole Rent has been paid; that no Landlord has ever relieved his Tenant at all. I heard of one considerable Farmer applying, and I heard that he was refused.

Are there any Allotments of Land given to the Labourers?

No, no Allotments at all. They have usually Gardens in Cookham, but not in Maidenhead. Some of the Farmers have given the People the Headlands of their Fields to plant Potatoes.

Have they extended to a Quarter of an Acre?

Some of them probably have extended to that.

Does not the Success of your Plan and Management depend on the Farmers understanding it to be their Interest to give liberal Wages to their Workmen?

No, I do not know that it does. The Success of the Plan has arisen from our having drawn together and having laid down a certain System of proceeding among ourselves. 'Till Eight Years ago I was never in a Vestry in my Life, excepting upon especial Business, such as appointing a Churchwarden; and I did not know what the Rates of the Parish of Cookham were when they were 3,900l. I did not know whether they were 3,000l. or 300l.

Are the Wages of Labour higher at Cookham than in the adjoining Parishes?

Not at all.

[242]

You were understood to say that they get only 15s. a Week in the Winter by the Grate?

Yes, at this Time of the Year; they get more in the Summer.

Have you much Employment for the Wives and Children of the Labouring Classes?

Not more than in other Parishes. They go out at this Time of the Year at Bean-setting; but unfortunately a great many set their Beans by the Drill.

Is there Stone-picking?

Yes, there is.

Do the Wives and Children earn any thing considerable?

Yes; and the Women are employed in the Summer a good deal at Gooch-picking. It is a very light Soil, and there is a good deal of Gooch to be burnt.

Has the Population increased much of late?

Very much. I think, in comparing the Register of Christenings from 1795 to the present Time, and I am making out an Account of the Christenings from a Period antecedent to 1795 to the same Extent, (if I can charge my Memory with Accuracy,) it was 770 Persons increased from one Period to the other.

Have you found since you have adopted this System that the Population has not increased with the same Rapidity as it did under the former System?

I cannot answer that Question accurately, for I do not recollect precisely how it was.

Shall you be able to ascertain this Fact for the Eight Years during which the Select Vestry have been established and the Eight preceding Years?

Undoubtedly.

The Witness is requested to ascertain the Fact, and communicate the Result.

Has the Straw Plait extended into your County?

No; there used to be a great deal of Employment among the Poor in Lacemaking, but that is now at an End.

Have you made any Observations as to the Age at which Persons marry now, since the Adoption of the new Regulations?

No; I do not know that there is a great deal of Difference; not a Difference that I can state. I rather flatter myself that there are fewer improvident Marriages than there were.

Is your Parish liked by the common People, and are they anxious to gain a Settlement in it?

[243]

No, I think they are not. A very singular Incident occurred at the Magistrates Meeting relating to the Question your Lordship asked me; there was a Man who was a Whitesmith, a good Workman, he said he had gained a Settlement at Cookham by renting a House in Maidenhead; Times were hard with him Two Years ago, and he wished to return to Cookham, as he said, to get a little Money to start him afresh; he was a Stranger, having only lived in the Parish for a Year and a Half, so that his Settlement was one that required Investigation; the Person of whom he had rented was dead, which made it rather suspicious, but we thought he was actually settled, and we told him if he came to us he would be put into the Workhouse and be put on the Second Class, as all Paupers were; the Year he stated himself to have gained the Settlement was the Year when the Rates were the highest: he went back to Sunning Hill, and we heard no more of him. Half a Year after this I was attending the Bench as a Magistrate; a Question arose as to a Settlement in the adjoining Parish of Wooburn, just across the Water; the Question the Magistrates had to decide was, to connect a Receipt for Rent of Lady Day with a Receipt for Rent of the Christmas following, the intermediate Receipt having been given by the Niece of the Landlord, and he stated that the Landlord was ill and in Bed with the Gout or Rheumatism, and could not write the Receipt, and that his Niece wrote it in his Presence. I looked at it with the other Magistrates, and thought there was no Doubt that the Link was properly filled up; but found, on looking at the Man, that he was the Person who said he had gained the Settlement in our Parish in 1812; the Receipts before that Bench were for the Year 1824; so that of course he, on second thoughts, thought it best to gain a Settlement in Wooburn rather than in Cookham.

You have spoken of the Advantages the Poor derive from your very kindly supplying them with Clothing at Cost Price; how much per Cent. do you think that saves them?

I cannot say how much per Cent. but it must be very considerable. We buy the Goods in large Quantities. A liberal Individual some Years ago made me a Present of 60£. which has not been exhausted. I buy that which the Poor must want, and if they ask me for any thing I take care to get it. Perhaps the great Advantage that they derive is the being able to pay for those Things out of their Weekly Earnings, because I allow them to pay in any Sum they please, from 3d. to 1s. or 2s. 6d. so that a poor Person can go and take away a Pair of Blankets in the Winter, and be the whole Summer in paying for them.

Do you not think it would be a very good Thing for the Poor, if it could be accomplished, to supply them with every Thing without going to the Chandlers?

Yes, I think it would; at the same Time there are so many conflicting Interests it would be difficult to manage it.

Without regarding other Interests, would it not be for the Benefit of the Poor?

Yes; but here is a Question which arises; I have never known a Chandler, during the Years I have known the Parish of Cookham, who has got any Money. The Poor pay more than they ought to do for the Article, and those who pay, pay for those who do not. The Poor run into Debt when the Times are hard; and if those Articles were supplied from any common Fund, I do not know how the Inconvenience could be obviated. Though those Chandlers are exorbitant in their Demands for certain Articles, they are beneficial to them in enabling them to get the Articles when they could not otherwise.

In point of fact, if you were to have a Society to sell to the poor People all those Things, and thereby ruin the Chandlers, would not they come upon the Poor's Rates?

Yes; only they would be very few in Number; they would not amount to Half a Dozen in Three Thousand. There has been a great Cry raised against the Chandlers; sometimes, no doubt, they are exorbitant in their Demands, but in many Cases they meet the Poor in Circumstances in which no other Persons could do it. Persons could not be allowed to run in Debt with Societies as they do with them. I think it would be such a complicated Piece of Machinery it could not be done.

Have you heard of any of the Societies alluded to which are called Co-operation Societies?

No; there are none of them in our Neighbourhood.

Do you not conceive that one of the great Advantages of Penny Clubs is the inducing Persons to subscribe during the Season of Prosperity, that they may purchase Clothes during the Winter?

Yes.

Have you found any Difficulty in getting Repayment from the Poor?

None at all. I think last Year I lost Eight-pence or Nine-pence.

Do not you think it would be beneficial to the Poor, if, instead of the Farmers paying their Labourers entirely in Money, they gave Part in the Produce of the Land?

[244]

No, I do not think it would. The Farmer would, perhaps, be induced to give a Part of the Produce he gave bad. I know a Farmer in an adjoining Parish who furnishes Bacon in part of Payment, and they complain that it is not good.

If it was arranged that the Labourer should have a certain Quantity of Pease or Barley, would not that be beneficial?

It is very often done by Arrangement among themselves. There are none of them who are not in the habit of taking such Things from the Farmers, and setting them against their Wages.

Would not that tend to keep the Wages at a fixed Price, the Labourer having the Produce always in proportion to his Wages?

I do not know what Effect that would have. There is hardly any Agricultural Labourer who does not deal with his own Master for what he wants for his Pig, or his Corn for Bread. Many of the Farmers allow their Labourers to take what they call Tale Wheat or other Wheat; but the Poor borrow from me Money to buy their Bread; there are great Numbers of them who do so; and I am enabled to afford them this Accommodation by the Assistance of my Friends, not from my own Pocket. All those who are provident buy a Sack of Flour at a Time, and they pay me every Week the Money they would pay to the Baker, and thus have the Advantage of buying it at the Mill at the First Hand.

In fact, in your Parish the Poor have almost every thing that they stand in need of, either from yourself or the Farmer?

Yes. I met a large Society of the Poor some Time ago, not during the late Troubles, in a District of the Parish a considerable Way off, and in a large Meeting, I suppose there were Fifty Persons in the Room, when I said, there was no Person in the Parish that need want, for there was no Person in the Parish that might not have whatever they pleased in Money or Goods if they came to me to ask for it, unless they were those who had worn out their Welcome by Fraud. I was enabled to do this by pecuniary Assistance from the late Sir W. Pepys Bart. A Clergyman has such Power over his People, and hits them in so many different Ways if they are fraudulent, that Persons that nobody else will trust I can trust with Impunity. A few Years ago there was a Man, who came to be hung very soon afterwards, and who had been a very profligate and bad Man, came and borrowed Six Guineas of me, and I lent it him, and he paid it me at 2s. 6d. a Week. He was afterwards hung.

What are the Rents in your Parish?

Very high. I think that in the Average they are from 30s. to 40s. an Acre; perhaps some are as low as 20s.

Do the Farmers send their Articles to London?

They are only Twenty-five Miles from London, consequently they send to London occasionally.

Can you state at all the Average Produce of Wheat upon the Acre?

I cannot; I am no Farmer.

When you say the Rents are high, you mean that the Land lets at a great deal per Acre in your Parish?

Just so.

Upon the whole you are decidedly of Opinion that any Publicity given to this Plan established at Cookham is likely to promote the Interests of the Poor?

Certainly; I think it may be adopted in every Agricultural Parish in the Kingdom.

Have you any Statement of the Expenditure of the Poor at White Waltham?

I have; it was given me by one of the principal Proprietors in the Parish.

The same is delivered in and read, and is as follows:

[245]

In 1822 the Population was 795.

In 1825 the County Rates were 71l. 18s. 6d.

The new System is only to relieve by Food.

The Extent of the Parish 2,600 Acres.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

John Barton Esquire is called in, and examined as follows:

Where do you reside?

At Stoughton, in Sussex.

Is that in the Rape of Chichester?

It is.

How long have you resided in that Parish?

About Five Years.

What is the Extent of the Parish?

I do not know the Number of Acres; it is several Miles in length.

Do you know the Population?

Between 500 and 600.

Are they chiefly employed in Agriculture?

Chiefly.

Are the Poor Rates heavy in that Parish at present?

The last Year they were 8s. in the Pound on the Rack Rent.

Had you many Men out of Employment during the Winter Months in that Parish?

We have not had a great many the last Two or Three Years, but I think that the Number is still in Excess, because the Quantity of Work done by the Labourer is certainly less than it used to be.

Are the Labouring Classes in that Parish in a very distressed Situation?

They are.

What Wages does an able-bodied Man earn?

At present 12s. a Week.

Before the Disturbances how much?

About 10s.

Is it the habit of the Overseers to make Allowances to married Men for their Children?

Yes.

In point of fact they make up the Price of Wages out of the Poor's Rate?

There are Allowances made to able Men.

[246]

Have you ever thought of any Plan of relieving the Labouring Classes of this Country?

I have for some Years thought a good deal about it.

Can you state to the Committee generally what you would recommend?

I should think that any Plan to be effectual must be such as to alter the Proportion between the Number of Labourers and the Quantity of Work to be done; as I apprehend the Distress arises chiefly, if not exclusively, from a Disproportion between the Demand for Labour and the Supply.

Have you ever thought that Emigration would relieve that Difficulty?

It seems the only Plan for removing the existing Excess at the present Moment, I think.

Do you believe that the People in your Part of the Country would be willing to emigrate if there was any Fund to pay their Expences and to facilitate their Emigration?

I have no reason to doubt it. I was applied to, a short Time ago, by a Shoemaker in Chichester, who wished to emigrate, and who was only prevented by the Difficulty of raising Funds; and I have known other instances of the same kind.

Have you known many Agricultural Labourers anxious to emigrate?

I have not heard them speak upon the Subject.

You have not asked them, probably?

No, I have not.

Did you ask the Shoemaker?

No; he applied to me, thinking that I might assist him in raising the Money.

Is it not notorious that in the County of Sussex there is an Excess of Population?

It is.

Are you not aware that in the neighbouring Parishes there are a great Number of Men out of Employment during the Winter?

There are.

Have you not seen a great many go to the Magistrates at Chichester asking for Work?

It very often happens.

Is it not the Practice in that Part of Sussex to employ Men in Numbers upon the Roads?

Very many.

Not that the Roads require it, but because the Overseers have no other Means of employing the People?

Yes.

Are they not placed upon the Roads at very low Wages?

At low Wages, certainly; but not so low, I believe, as in many other Parts of the Country.

Have you ever turned your Attention to Home Colonization?

I have often thought on the Subject.

Do you think that would be practicable, so as to remove the present Evil?

I should think decidedly not.

Will you state your Reasons for that Opinion?

[247]

I find it difficult to understand precisely what Land is to be considered as Waste. As far as my Observation has gone, by far the greater Proportion of Lands called Waste are already occupied in the most profitable Way of which their Quality admits; namely, in furnishing Manure to the Land of a better Quality in the immediate Neighbourhood. For instance, in my own Parish there are many Hundred Acres of Down, which consists of a very thin Soil on a Chalk Basis. The greater Part of that Down is occupied in the feeding of Sheep, which are penned every Night on the Arable Land; and even those Parts which are not fit for the feeding of Sheep, being over-run with Bushes and Gorse, are still applied to the Production of Manure, because the Surface is picked up and burnt, and the Ashes are found very serviceable for that Purpose. In fact, the only Cases that I have observed in which any considerable Tracts of Land are wholly unemployed are such as those on Dartmoor, or the Mountains of Wales, or the North of England, which are of very great Extent and extremely barren Land, and not intermixed with any of better Quality. I apprehend it would be quite impossible to bring such Land as that into Cultivation with Profit. The Labourer and the Horses employed upon it would consume a greater Quantity of Corn than would be raised upon the Land after bringing it into Cultivation.

Then your Reasoning is limited to the particular Districts which are under your Observation; those which you have described. You only mean to speak of those particular Districts which you have just alluded to, not the Waste Lands in other Parts of England?

I spoke of those I have seen in different Parts of the Kingdom. I apprehend that a very great Part of the Land called Waste is actually made useful; it is employed in the best Manner it admits of, in furnishing Manure for the other Lands.

Have you seen Stainmoor?

I have not.

Do not you think this Waste Land would have been brought into Cultivation if the present Price of Agricultural Produce would have remunerated for the Money expended in bringing it into Cultivation?

I do not see how it is possible to bring Land into Cultivation which would yield less Corn on Cultivation than would be consumed by the Men and Horses employed in cultivating it.

Have you seen large Districts in the North of England?

I have seen most Parts of the Kingdom.

Have you observed any considerable Quantity of Land fit for the Plough, which is not now under it?

None at all, or next to none.

The large Districts in the North are very useful as Sheep Walks?

Certainly.

Do you know any thing of the Parish of Singleton?

I do not know enough of that Parish to speak to it.

Do you know any thing of the Parish of Harting?

I hear about it; it lies near me.

Are you aware there are Numbers of Men out of Employment there all the Year round?

A great many; it is more overburdened than any Parish in our Neighbourhood.

Do you know that there are Sixty or Seventy?

I have heard that there are as many.

That Parish is nearly out of Cultivation, is it not?

I believe it is in the Hands of Sir Harry Featherston; I do not think it is thrown out of Cultivation.

Do you know the Parish of North Marden?

I believe that the uncultivated State of that Parish arose from accidental Circumstances; it was in Chancery.

Are there many People out of Employment there now?

[248]

I do not know. In Illustration of what I just now said on the Subject of bringing Waste Land under the Plough, I may mention a particular Case; there is a Noble Lord possesses some Land in the Parish in which I live, who happens to be Lord of the Manor; he has just let a Farm with a considerable Sheep Walk attached to it, and, as I am told, he gave Permission to the Tenant to break up the best Part of this Sheep Walk if he pleases; but I believe, in the Opinion of the Farmer and the best Judges in the Neighbourhood, it would be attended with Loss, and in fact he is not breaking it up.

Have you any Poorhouse in your Parish?

We have not.

Is it the Practice for People to marry at an early Age in your Parish?

I think it is.

Do you think that is in consequence of Farmers giving more to married Men than they do to single?

Partly so, and partly, I think, from there being no Inducement, under present Circumstances, for the Labourers to save or refrain from Marriage; they have no Hopes of raising themselves from the Caste in which they were born.

Do you conceive that Emigration would be a great Advantage, not only to the Labourers who go out, but those who remain at Home?

A very great one.

Do you see any thing wrong in lending a Man Money to go Abroad to get good Wages, whereas if he remains in England he gets hardly any at all?

I think it is the greatest Kindness that can possibly be done to the Labouring Classes.

Do you know that Mr. Henty near Worthing, who has obtained a Grant of Land in Van Dieman's Land, has had 1,500 of the Labourers in his Neighbourhood offered to go out with him to Van Dieman's Land?

I did not know that Fact.

Would they not rather get Work here, than go to Van Dieman's Land?

If they could get as good Wages here they would probably prefer to remain.

You say there are in your Part of the Country a great Number of Persons out of Employment; how is the Land cultivated, well or ill?

Tolerably well; not so well as in some of the best Parts of Norfolk.

Is there as much Labour employed upon that Land as ought to be employed?

I apprehend quite so. I should say a greater Number of Labourers are employed on the Land than would be employed if Things were in a wholesome Condition. I am persuaded Two Thirds of the Men, working with the Spirit and Animation of Men working for their own Profit, would be quite sufficient to do the whole Business of the Parish, except in the Harvest Month.

Then there is an Over-population in your Parish?

Decidedly so.

Do you consider that to have arisen from the Prevalence of early Marriages?

I think the Proportion of Marriages relatively to the Population has not increased for the last Seventy Years; nor are they earlier than they used to be.

To what then do you attribute the Increase of Population?

To a Diminution of Mortality.

You have said that you think Emigration the best and only Means of relieving the Distresses of the Poor; does not Emigration take off the best and most useful Hands, and leave the least useful at Home?

I think it would be desirable to send young and capable Men, and not the old and decrepit.

Would not the Land in your Neighbourhood be more productive if more Men were employed upon it?

I think not.

Has it arrived at such Perfection that it could not be made more productive by more Labour?

Not with Profit.

[249]

Have you ever known any Benefit arise permanently, or for any length of Time, in consequence of Emigration?

The Emigration from my own Neighbourhood has been on so very small a Scale that I cannot form a Judgment of its Effects in relieving the rest of the Population.

You would not have recourse to Emigration when there are other Means at Home?

I have no Objection to Emigration.

Do you think the Commons are all so far cultivated that they could not be improved, the whole Waste of Stainmoor and others, if Labour was bestowed upon them?

As far as my Observation extends, the Waste Lands, or those called Waste, are already employed in a Way that, upon the whole, is most calculated to increase the Quantity of Corn raised, by furnishing Manure for the better Lands in their Neighbourhood.

Have you not seen in the Enclosure of Commons, and so on, that they have been rendered more productive; otherwise why are Bills of Enclosure passed?

I should conceive that many of these Enclosures have proved unprofitable to the Persons concerned in them.

If the Price of Agricultural Produce could be raised, would not many more Hands be employed with Profit upon the Lands?

I think not more.

Do not you think so many would be employed as nearly to absorb the whole Population now out of Employment?

I should think not.

Would it not cost a great deal of Money to transport the Labourers from the County of Sussex, and to locate them upon Stainmoor?

Undoubtedly.

Do you think that the Sussex Labourers would like to live there without Houses or Cottages?

Undoubtedly not.

Do you not conceive it would be a Matter of some Time and Expence to build them Cottages there?

Undoubtedly.

Do you not believe that a Man who is constantly employed becomes a much more Moral Character than those who have no Employment?

Undoubtedly he does.

Do you not believe that if you facilitated the Emigration from England you would make more Demand for Labour, and that therefore the Labourer would be more moral?

I do, indeed.

Do you know how much it would cost to pay the Passage of Persons to Canada for instance?

I cannot answer that from my own Knowledge. I have heard it would cost about 7£. a Head.

Are you at all acquainted with the District of Stainmoor, of which you have been speaking?

No. I believe the Question was put generally as to Waste Lands, not as to Stainmoor specially.

Are you at all acquainted with the Wastes in the North of England?

Very little.

If there are any Parts you are acquainted with, can you inform the Committee whether the Cultivation of Corn has not been carried as high up upon those Wastes as can be with Profit to the Farmer?

I think so, certainly.

[250]

And all above that is employed either in Pasture or Enclosure, for the Purpose of keeping the Sheep and Cattle during the Winter?

I conceive so.

Is there any Land attached to the Cottages in your Neighbourhood?

Nothing more than Gardens.

How large are those Gardens?

Perhaps from Ten to Twenty Rods; not exceeding that.

Do you think that increasing the Quantity of Land attached to Cottages would take off any of that superfluous Labour?

Not at all.

Do you plough with Two Horses or Four?

Generally with Two.

Is it the Practice of your Parish Officers to bind over any of the Children as Apprentices?

I believe not in our Parish.

Have any Means been taken in your Parish to employ Labourers by Spade Cultivation?

There have not been any Attempts of that kind.

Have the Parish rented any Quantity of Land under the Provisions of an Act of Parliament passed in the 59th of George the Third?

No.

How many Men are employed on a Farm of One hundred Acres?

About Four Men and Boys, I should think.

Do you refer to Arable Land?

Yes; Four Men to a Hundred Acres of Arable; but then our Acre is smaller than the Statute Acre. Perhaps Five Hands to a Hundred statutable Acres of Arable.

Is that Number employed in your Parish?

It is difficult to give an exact Statement of the Number, it varies so much.

Do you conceive that Five Men upon a Hundred Acres of Arable Land can be profitably employed?

It depends upon the Way in which they work.

Are Five Men necessary to the complete Cultivation of a Hundred Acres in your Neighbourhood?

I should think Three Men would do the Work, if they worked with that degree of Skill and Animation with which Men are accustomed to work for themselves.

In point of fact, what Number is generally employed in your Parish?

The Circumstances of different Farms vary so much that I am quite unable to give a general Answer to that Question. Some Farms have more Down than others; some have no Down at all. That Down is not included in my Estimate.

In those Farms in which there is no Down at all, how many Men are employed on a Hundred Acres?

I am not able to answer that Question.

Do you occupy any Land yourself?

Not any Arable Land.

Are you acquainted with the Manner in which any Land in your Parish is cultivated?

Yes; I have some Land that I let.

How many Men per Hundred Acres are employed upon that Land?

I am unable to give a correct Answer at this Moment. I could easily ascertain the Number, if desired.

[251]

Is there any Agreement amongst the Farmers in your Parish to employ the whole Population?

There is a tacit Understanding to employ the whole; no formal Agreement.

You have no Labourers now upon the Roads?

We have a few.

How many Labourers have there been upon the Roads during the last Twelve Months?

Eight or Ten, perhaps.

What is the tacit Understanding to which you allude with regard to Employment?

There is an Understanding among the Farmers that each should employ a certain Proportion, not exactly a fixed and limited Proportion; but it would be considered an unhandsome Thing if one Farmer employed less than another, according to the Extent of his Farm.

You have no Condition in the Parish that the whole of the Labourers should be divided among the different Farmers?

Certainly not.

Do you conceive that the superfluous Labour amounts to Eight or Ten Men?

I conceive it amounts to a great deal more than that.

Then how do you account for there not being more than Eight or Ten Men employed upon the Roads?

I apprehend that when there is an Excess of Population, the Result is, not so much that a certain Number of Men are thrown completely out of Employ, but that the whole are partially employed, and do less Work.

You suppose a great Portion of the Population are partially employed in your Parish?

When I say partially employed, I mean that they do not perform the Quantity of Work the same Men ought to do, and would do, under other Circumstances.

Is there any Employment for the Women or Children in your Parish?

Scarcely any, except occasionally a little weeding; and in Harvest they go out and do a little sometimes.

Are the Men employed at all in Task Work?

Yes, frequently.

What sort of Work is that; Wood Work or thrashing?

There are both kinds of Work done in our Parish; both thrashing and cutting Wood.

What are the Earnings of the Labourer employed at Task Work?

They are various; but I think generally higher than the Average Wages of Day Labour. They earn more at Task Work than at Day Work.

How much more?

That I am unable to state correctly.

Do they earn 14s. or 15s. a Week?

There may be some few such Instances.

Do they pay for their Tools sometimes out of their greater Earnings?

I believe they do.

Is there any Limit put to the Quantity of Work those People employed by Task may do in a Day?

None at all, I believe.

Are those Individuals employed at Task Work fully employed?

They undoubtedly work more diligently than those paid by the Day.

[252]

What would be the Advantage to those Individuals if the Population of the Parish was diminished by Emigration?

They might earn higher Wages.

By doing a greater Quantity of Work, or by the Wages of Labour being higher?

By the Wages of Labour being higher.

Do those Men who are provided with Task Work get constant Task Work all the Year round?

Certainly not.

For what Periods of the Year are they idle?

I do not apprehend it occurs during any one Period of the Year, because it depends upon the particular Work they perform; some are employed on Wood Work, and others on thrashing.

What are the Wages of the Men in Harvest in your Parish?

About double the ordinary Wages at other Times; the Wages were last Year from 3s. to 3s. 6d.

Are there any Men out of Employ during Harvest?

Not many able-bodied Labourers. I have known instances of old Men, and those who were not very capable, being out of Work during Harvest.

Do any Irishmen or Welchmen, or Persons from distant Counties, come to work in your Neighbourhood?

Not in our Parish; they would meet with no Employment.

If there were a smaller Number of Labourers in the Parish, could you, without Assistance from Persons residing out of it, get in the Harvest as profitably to the Farmer as you do at present?

Not without the Assistance of Strangers.

No greater Exertion on the Part of the Labourers could get in the Harvest?

During the Harvest Month the Labourers work very industriously and well, and I should think they could not easily do more.

What is the usual Rent of Cottages in your Parish?

From 1s. to 1s. 6d. a Week.

Are the Cottages in the Hands of the Farmers or Proprietors?

Mostly in the Hands of the Farmers.

Do the Farmers pay for those Cottages the same Sum which they charge to the Labourer?

The Cottages are generally included with the Farm.

Have any Reductions of the Rent of Cottages taken place in your Parish?

I believe not.

Are the Farmers in a very bad Condition?

No, I think not.

Yours is a Down Parish?

Yes.

The Price of Wool is better this Year than it has been for some Years?

Considerably so.

Has the Improvement which has taken place this Year induced the Farmer to employ more Labourers?

I have not observed any Increase in the Quantity of Labour employed.

Have you ever turned your Attention to the possibility of employing the Men out of Employment in the Parish by Spade Cultivation in the Parish itself?

It would be impossible to do so in our Parish, on account of the Thinness of the Soil. If we were to attempt to use the Spade, we should ruin the Land.

[253]

You state that there is a tacit Understanding among the Occupiers in the Parish to employ all the Labourers; are those Labourers at this Moment beneficially employed?

I did not mean to say there was a tacit Understanding to employ the whole of them, for there are some upon the Roads; all I meant to say was, that there is a sort of honourable Understanding amongst the Farmers that each shall keep, as nearly as may be, their Proportion of Labourers.

Are the Farmers employing more Labourers than they want to employ, were it not that they would have to pay for them if they do not employ them?

Undoubtedly.

Then they are not beneficially employed upon the Farm?

I do not know whether I correctly understand the Meaning of the Question. As long as the Labourers continue to work with that sort of Indolence which prevails under present Circumstances, it might not be possible for the Farmer to do with less; but if the Labourers were to exert themselves as they do when working for their own Profit, a Farmer might be able to do with Two Thirds of those he now employs.

Would the Effect of being able to do with Two Thirds the Number they have at present be more beneficial to the Farmer than employing the full Number they do at the present Wages?

I think it would be more beneficial to the Farmer, for the Rates would be reduced, though he would pay higher Wages.

Are Allowances regularly made in your Parish on account of the Number of the Family?

Yes.

Is that by any Order of the Magistrate?

I think not.

It is the voluntary Act of the Overseers?

It is the voluntary Act of the Overseers.

Is there any regular Scale of Allowance?

No; I can hardly say a regular Scale. It is customary to give about 1s. 6d. a Head for all Children above Two, in addition to their Wages.

Do you not believe, that if a Labourer goes to the Magistrates at Chichester, and asks for an Order to the Overseer to give him Relief, they are in the habit of inquiring how much the Man earns, and then making the Order according to his Earnings, at so much a Head per Week?

Yes.

Do you know how much the Magistrates grant to the Labourer per Head a Week for himself and his Family?

No, I cannot say.

Have the Rents of Land been lowered in your Parish?

The Rents of Land are lower than they were during the War.

How much?

I cannot speak to that.

How much per Cent. has your own been lowered?

I have had it but Five Years.

Do you know how much the Rent has been lowered since 1814?

I do not; I have only a general Impression that they have been lowered; it is a Thing the Farmers do not like to talk about.

Do you mean to say that the Rents of Land have been lowered, but that the Farmers have made no corresponding Reduction in the Rents of the Cottages?

I cannot say, indeed. I have been but Five Years in the Parish.

You do not know much, of your own Knowledge, on the Subject, beyond that which you collect from talking with Persons in the Parish?

I do not on the Subject of Reduction of Rent.

[254]

With respect to the Rent of the Cottages?

I can speak to them only during the last Four or Five Years.

Whether they have been lowered within the last Fifteen Years you cannot say?

I cannot.

Are the Farmers in a thriving Condition in the Parish?

I think they are paying their Way, perhaps. They are scarcely laying by.

Are they keeping their own?

I think they are.

Have they been so for the Two or Three Years preceding the present?

I should think they have.

During the last Two bad Years, with the Poor's Rate of 8s. in the Pound?

I should think during the Time I have been in Stoughton the Farmers have, upon the whole, not been losing.

Do you know what the Poor's Rates were before that Time?

I am unable to speak positively, but I could easily get the Information.

Would not any Plan which enabled a poor Man and his Family to employ their leisure Hours profitably be a Benefit to the Public and to themselves?

I apprehend that, after a Man has been working Eight Hours for his Master, he has very little Strength left to work for himself.

Do you not see the contrary in many instances?

There may be Exceptions in some instances.

Then would not allotting a large Garden to a Family come under that Description?

I should think it a very desirable Thing for every Labourer to have a large Garden.

Would it not, in proportion to the Profits they thereby receive, become less necessary that the Poor should be obliged to emigrate?

In my own District they have already most of them good Gardens.

They have a Garden large enough to grow the Vegetables and the Potatoes for the Consumption of their Families?

Most of them.

You acknowledge that great Benefit does arise from that?

Yes.

Your Plan of Emigration would never be to oblige Persons to emigrate?

Certainly not; that would be transporting them.

You would not wish to send Persons Abroad, but only to facilitate their going if they wished to go?

Yes.

With all the Benefits of those Gardens, where they grow Potatoes and Vegetables sufficient for their Consumption, still they have not Income enough to prevent their being in a most distressed Situation?

Certainly not.

Do you not think that the Labourers in the Weald of Sussex, with which you are acquainted, are in a Situation which is very distressing?

Certainly.

Are you not aware that there are many Hundreds of Men out of Employ during the Winter?

Yes, throughout the District.

Are you not aware that they go to the Magistrate and only ask for Work?

Certainly.

[255]

And that the Magistrates, having no Work to give them, are obliged to send them to the Overseers for Relief?

Certainly.

Do you think it would be expedient to pass an Act of Parliament to force any Landholder to let his Land to the Poor for Gardens?

No, very much the contrary.

Is the Price of Fuel dear in your Parish?

Yes, it is.

It is chiefly Wood, probably?

They burn occasionally Coal; they think Coal is rather cheaper than Wood.

Do you know at all the Price of Coal in the Parish?

It costs about 8s. per Chaldron Carriage; and of course the Price at the Water Side is the same as on other Parts of the Coast.

What is that Price?

This Year it has been 34s. a Chaldron.

Has this Season suited your Lands?

Wet Seasons are not so injurious to our District as to many others.

Do you conceive that during the War there was much Employment given to the People in your Neighbourhood beyond the mere Agricultural Pursuits at those Times; that being so near the French Coast as Sussex is, there were any Public Works or Military Preparations?

Not in our Parish, I should think, nor in our immediate Neighbourhood.

Are you aware that some Disturbances took place in the West of Sussex?

Yes.

Do you know the Ground the Labourers who joined in those Disturbances gave for their tumultuous Assemblages?

They alleged the Lowness of Wages, and the Impossibility of maintaining their Families.

The Disturbances were very soon put a Stop to?

They were very soon put an End to in Sussex.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Monday next, Twelve o'Clock.