House of Commons Journal Volume 1
11 May 1621

Sponsor

History of Parliament Trust

Publication

Year published

1802

Pages

Annotate

Comment on this article
Double click anywhere on the text to add an annotation in-line

Citation Show another format:

'House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 11 May 1621', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 1: 1547-1629 (1802), pp. 616-619. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=2083 Date accessed: 30 August 2014.


Highlight

(Min 3 characters)

Veneris, 11o Maii

Hospital.

TUESDAY next, for Sutton's Hospital.

Little's Nat.

Naturalization - Little, &c. - Presently after Dinner.

Committee, for removing Actions out of inferior Courts, - Tuesday next, in the former Place.

Donwich Haven.

L. 1a. Donwich.

Mr. Denny, - for the Bill: And sheweth great Commodities, which would ensue by repairing this Haven.

Privilege.

Mr. Chancellor : - That ..... his Clerk, and giveth him Wages.

Upon Question, to have Privilege.

Recusants.

Committee for Recusants, - upon Tuesday next, at the former Place.

Voices at Committees.

Sir Tho. Hobby moveth, that it may be ordered, that, where set down, that whosoever will come, shall have Voice, that it may be explained, that they shall be Committees.

Sir Geor. Moore: - That all may come, to inform the Committee; but only they to have Voice, who named Committees. This the ancient and best Course.

Dr. Gooch: - This Provision, for all to have Voice, the Remedy, to prevent the Inconvenience of not putting in those, which sit far off from the Chair.

Sir Wm. Spencer: - That Mr. Speaker is to name no Committee.

Sir Pet. Haman: - That, in the Committee for regulating Courts of Justice, if none but the Persons named, the Officers of the Courts would have overborn it.

Recusants.

Sir Nath. Rich, Sir Tho. Hobby, Sir J. Horsey, Sir Peter Haman, Sir Edw. Sands, Sir Tho. Low, Sir J. Perrott, Dr. Gooch, Mr. Chancellor Duchy, Sir Ro. Bevyll, Sir Francis Barrington, Sir Sam. Sands, Sir Tho. Hamond, Mr. Jordan. Sir Edw. Peyton, Sir Peter Fretchwell, Sir W. Earle, Sir W. Heale, Sir Wm. Cope, Mr. Hopton, added to the Committee for Recusants : - Tuesday next. Star-chamber.

Voices at Committees.

Resolved by the House, That, when limited, all, that will come, shall have Voice, that they, in that Case, if they come, are Committees as well as those nominated.

Privilege.

The Under Sheriff of Middlesex, called to the Bar, denieth, he knew Alex. Melting was Mr. Chancellor's Man.

Mr. Speaker letteth the Under Sheriff know, the House hath ordered him to have Privilege; and therefore ordereth the Sheriff to release him.

Mynheade Election.

A Petition read, from Mr. Luttrell, for Mynheade; desiring, he may be heard by his Counsel, before a Writ go out.

Counsel to be heard herein, at the Committee for Privileges.

Mr. Noye: - Not to hear Mr. Luttrell, because not his particular Interest.

Mr. Hackwill, contra.

Sir Edw. Sa* - Not to hear Mr. Luttrell for his own Right.

Patent for Alehouses.

Mr. Noye reporteth from the Committee for Alehouses.

- That One Milton found the original Projector. That Sir J. Spence, Patrick Mawle, Chr. Villyers, and Mr. Maxwell, preferred the Petition to the King about it; whereby they informed of the Abuse in Alehouses, &c. That this referred to the now Lord Treasurer; who certified, it might do well, if well framed. - Reporteth the Patent, Proclamation, Orders, &c. - That, before the Proclamation, the Lord Chief Justice made Orders, for the Continuance of the Licences but for One Year; and For Fees; whereof 2s. to the Judge; 18d. de novo increased to the Clerk of the Peace.

That the Committee resolved, this Patent, and Proclamation, originally grievous: 1. Because maketh Provisions besides the Intention of the Statute of Ed. VI. 2ly, A new Fee of 18 d. contrary to the Statute, the Statute saying 12d. and no more. - Objected, this for a new Labour: But answered, this 18d. enforced, to the Prejudice of the Party. - Thought inconvenient, the Grant of the Moiety of the Forfeiture of the Recognizances. - Though the King come not within the Law of Champerty, for Coaction; yet within the Equity. - This also against the King's Book. - Against 1 Jac. which giveth 20 s. Forfeiture, for selling under Measure: Here to be contained in the Condition of the Recognizance, so as 20 l. to be added. - Also, by the Statute, the Penalty given to the Poor; by the Proclamation, to the King and Patentees. - That, where all the Justices of the Peace of England cannot order the Alehouse-keepers, those Two, Almon and Dixon, can less do it. - The Justices of Peace, and not Almond and Dixon, trusted by the Lawmakers, Ed. VI. -

Estimated (reckoning Three to a Parish) about 30,000l. - 100, and odd, in a Piece of a Parish by the Fleete. - Dangerous, to trust Two with so many of this kind. - Might, by this Patent, send for 60 or 80,000 l. Men to London. -

That these undertook a Reformation : So Undertakers. At first, the Recognizances certified by Certioraris, whereof almost 9,000 into the Crown-office; which not utterly against the Law : Divers other certified by Certioraris, (a whole Cloak-bag full of them) which never returned into the Crown-office. -

That another Cloak-bag full (containing many thousands) sent up, without Certioraris; but as Breviats, the Originals remaining with the Clerks of the Peace in the Country. Upon these made out Process, having no Record; and might have been sued again in the Country before the Justices.

They first began by Scire facias ; and finding, there could be but One in a Writ, they put into a Warrant 30, 40, sometimes 60. That One Process-writer made, at 1d. a-piece, 200l. per Annum , to himself. -

That, when these were Sent for up by Process, no Declaration ; but put off, newly arrested ; and so deferred several times. That the Clerk of the Crown causing his Clerks to forbear to make out Process, Sir Francis Michell said, he would have it, spite of 10 Fanshawes. -

That another Provision in the Patent, that the Patentees might appoint Committees in remote Counties. That these Patentees, having raked what they could, sold the Gleanings to others; and sell the Alehouse-keepers ; so committing a new Champerty in every Shire. -

That in Salisbury, 60 l. in Lincolne, 80 l. in Grimesby, 14l. That they sold some County for 100l. some for 100 Marks. -

That Sir Francis Michell, to advance the Bargains, commended the Abundance of Alehouses. That these Committees assigned over their Interest. - All this against the Provision of the Patent, Proclamation, &c. - If the King grant a Thing in Action to me, yet I cannot grant that over. -

That their Scope was, to set all the Realm in Farm.

Upon the Complaint by the Alehouse-keepers, in and about London, to the King and Council, Sir J. Spence and Maxwell capitulated with them, to pay 2,000 l. per Annum, or 1d. ob. upon a Barrel. Articles drawn, to this Purpose, by the Alehouse-keepers, and presented to Sir J. Spence: He allowed some of the Articles; for others, for Want of Power, could not help it; but would given them their Assistance. That the Patentees drew up a Paper Book, having above 900 Lines, and containing so many Things, against the Law, as never any : This done by the Undertakers of a Reformation. -

That then Speech of the now Lord Treasurer: Enquiry made, what he done in it: Which was, that the Committees (whereof some of them in every County principal Gentlemen) yet Sanderson, and other Farmers, made of the Quorum. That the Lord Treasurer, in Nine several Papers, gave Allowance of these Committees ; but it appeared not, that, in the List, brought to the Lord Treasurer, these Men of the Quorum. His Error, to give Allowance of those Letters ; whereby Power to compound given, the Proclamation allowing no such Power. That the Patentees dealt exceedingly doubly. That, before the Petition exhibited by the Alehouse-keepers, Michell told Weston, that, hearing they meant to petition the King in Multitudes, he said, he a Deputy Lieutenant of Middlesex, and with Muskets would scatter them. That the Lord Chief Justice, hearing they meant to petition the King in Troops, imprisoned Weston for that Purpose. -

That they examined, what should induce the Chief Justice to do this: - Will, nor Labour, wanted to search it out. - Could find but 9 l. and 22 l. either in re or spe. -

That the new Patent being brought to him, he refused to give way to it.

Mr. Mallory: - This Relation maketh his Heart ake.

- Moveth, to report this up to the Lords; and that Dixon and Almond may be in safe Custody.

Sir Francis Seymour: - That being twice questioned by a Member (of this) House, to be the Author and Inventor of the Matter against [the] Lord Treasurer; this an Affront, both to him, and all the House: This against the Liberty of free Speech. - Protesteth his Desire, rather to speak for the Lord Treasurer, than against him. - That it standeth not with the Justice of this House, to acquit one, or condemn another. - Moveth, to be cleared, not only by the Opinion but Order also, of the House, to free him from after Censures.

Sir Geor. Moore: - The Patent condemned, both by the King, and us : The only Question now, the Punishment of the Persons. - 1. The Projector, Milton, who not to be found ; who One of the Seven God hateth : A Man, that imagineth evil Things; 2. The King; whose Care great, to reform the Abuses of Alehouse-keepers: This for the King's Honour. 3ly, the Referees, Patentees

&c. - Moveth, to digest this into Writing; and to prepare this to be sent up to the Lords.

Mr. Mallett: - This the greatest Grievance, that sithence the Parliament. - That some of these Things make a greater Noise, than Matter. - Never done, nor intended, to bring up 70 or 80,000l.- - That the Granting of Recognizances over, by the Patents, lawful though something inconvenient. That the Offence in this most heinous, that it changeth the Government, contrary to an Act of Parliament; and by exacting great Sums of Money. The Patentees Offence great, in joining mean Persons with great, and making them of the Quorum. That they have abused the Lord Treasurer, in annexing his Warrant of Allowance of the Committees to their Letters: And that, if my Lord Treasurer be guilty, it may be so determined, upon the Question, or else cleared. That Sir Francis Seymor hath done him a great Pleasure, in causing his Actions herein to be searched into, and now to be cleared so as he is. That, for the Lord Treasurer's Certificate, the King hath examined it, and found no Fault with it. - If great Persons, by Commandment, give their Opinions faithfully; though Inconvenience appear after (as that of dyeing and dressing).

For the Proclamation ; liketh it not; yet hath divers Other Proclamations, of like Nature, that lay a Charge of the Subject. - That both the Lord Treasurer and Sir Francis Seymor deserve to be cleared. - To put it to the Question.

Sir Edw. Gyles: - The Grievance great: Almost 30,000 sent for. - To go to a faithful Report to the Lords, how we find Things ; and let the Lords clear, or condemn, as they see Cause.

Sir Ro. Phillippes. - To free no Man here, whom any Cause to suspect. - That the Lord Treasurer, in all his Business, hath committed as few Errors, as could possibly be expected. - To present to the Lords the Matter. - An infinite Grievance : Wrong to the Justices of Peace : - Exaction upon the poor Alehouse-keepers. - Moveth a select Committee, to view the Report made by Mr. Noye; and to apt the Matter to the Persons, to be sent up to the Lords.

Sir Francis Vane: - To have Mr. Noye make the Report above ; and that will be sufficient.

Sir H. Withrington, accordant: - And to make it neither better, nor worse, than as he hath reported it: And to clear Sir Francis Seymor by Question.

Sir Edw. Coke: - All agree to go up to the Lords: For this Patent worse than the Inns. - That Mr. Noye may draw his Report into a Parliament Narrative, and to tax no Man further than this Narrative will: When this brought into this House, and allowed, then to send to the Lords.

Sir Nath. Rich: - First to make a verbal Report to the Lords, as in G. Monperson's Case; and then, upon the Lords Desire, that we would, send up, in Writing, the Heads : So to be here.

Mr. Noye moveth, all the House would consider of all the Heads, and allow the same. 2ly, To appoint some other to speak to the Lords; because he never did speak to them, as yet. - That some good Numberers may be joined, to peruse the Recognizances in the Cloak-bags.

Upon Question, Mr. Noye his said Report to be related by him, in Manner as here, unto the Lords.

Mr. Noye moveth, he may not be tied to the. same Words: 2ly, They may not be his Words, but the Words of the House: 3ly, That some Time may be assigned him, to bring in his Notes; and read them, and allow them here: 3ly. That he may have Help assigned him.

Mr. Hackwill, Mr. Glanvyle, Mr. Sherfeild, Mr. Brooke, and Mr. Wentworth, Sir Francis Seymor, and Sir Nath. Rich, to assist him.

Mr. Secretary, - against an Order for clearing Sir Francis Seymor ; because grounded upon a Fear, he may be questioned after the Parliament: Which, hopeth, he shall never live to see.

Sir Tho. Row: - Fit to clear Sir Francis in the Opinion of the House; which may always be good Evidence to clear him, if any Man shall question him.

Mr. Chancellor Duchy - To keep Records Of our Liberty, none of our Fear.

Mr. Alford: - To clear him by Order of the House, according to former Precedents.

Master of the Wards, - That Sir Francis Seymor hath, from the Beginning of this Parliament, spoken as worthily, as any Man: - Therefore to clear him generally.

Sir Wm. Herberte : - That then every one may desire to be cleared: For others have spoken as worthily as he.

Mr. Wrenham: - To make it particular.

Sir Edw. Sands: - First for the Lord Treasurer: - A Way to clear him. - Cannot be done here, by Question ; for cannot, by the Negative, condemn him; but may do it by the general Voice, without a Question. - A general Clearing implieth a general Accusation * * it particular.

Sir Tho. Jermyn, accordant.

Upon Question, Resolved, Sir Francis Seymor hath spoken nothing, in or concerning the Business of Alehouses, but fitting, and worthily for the House.

Letter found in the hall.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle produceth a Letter, sealed, directed to the Knights and Burgesses of the Parliament.

Rosseter, the Bringer, brought to the Bar; - That his Boy found it in the Hall; and knoweth . . . whence it came, nor what is in it.

Sir Edw. Wardor : - That a Letter, put into the Upper House this Parliament, was brent.

Rosseter his Boy at the Bar, - That he found this Letter, as he came, in the Dark, by the King's Bench Bar, and then told it to his Master. That some saw him take it up; but knoweth not who. That his Master never read it. That Sir Francis Englefeild was hard by, and told his Master, his Boy had found a Letter.

Sir Tho. Wentworth : - To burn it.

Mr. Mallett: - Mr. Speaker to read it.

Sir Edw. Mountague: - Like to be a Libel. - To burn it.

Sir Sam. Sands: - Rosseter, the Bringer known. - The Gunpowder Treason discovered by a Letter.

Mr. Treasurer, Mr. Secretary, Master of the Wards, Sir Edw. Coke, Sir Sam. Sands, Sir Edw. Cecill, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Mr. Alford, to go up into the Committee Chamber, and peruse this Letter.

Which done: And found to be a Complaint against Sir Jo. Bennett's Corruption.

Conference.

Sir Edw. Coke: - To prepare for the Conference with the Lords.

Clothiers,&c.

Tuesday next, for the Clothiers, and Merchant Adventurers, in the House.

Courts of Justice.

The Committee for Courts of Justice to sit this Afternoon, in Sir Edw. Cokes Absence.

Jurisdiction of Parliament - Punishing Floyde.

Sir Edw. Coke: - That the Sub-committee, for the Conference, hath met, and unanimously agreed upon the Subject of their Conference, if the House agree to it. - Two general Parts: 1. An Inducement: sly. The Matter, how the Business may be accommodated. - The Inducement to be, but our Desire to continue the Correspondency between the Houses : And, that not the least Thought to impeach the Lords Testimonies. That we have given a Sentence, upon the Evidence and Notoriety of the Fact; and have done it with Zeal of the Honour of the King, and his Children. That now the Matter being spread, the Honour of the House at Stake. That we, having sent the Message, must now begin. -

The Committee of Opinion, neither to advise, nor contradict, the Lords (for cannot) if they will take any Examinations there. - That we desire, it they take any such Course, they will consider of the Heinousness of the Fact, and speed it with all Speed. That if the Lords press, what shall become of thePrecedent; to answer, that

shall not be drawn into Precedent, except it be warranted by other Precedents, or Power of this House. If the Lords like, not this, then to know, what other Course they will take, according to their own Message, for accommodating the Business, without Prejudice to the Liberties of either House. - To avoid all future Questions, and accord still with the Lords.

Sir Edw. Mountague: - That Sir Ro. Cotton hath delivered him some Books, and Notes; which yet thinketh fitter to conceal, than look further into it.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle to be One of the Sub-committees, for the Conference, in lieu of Sir D. Digges, who gone into the Town.

Member discharged from the Tower.

Sir Ed. Coke moveth for his Son: And his Son's Petition read.

Sir Tho. Row giveth his Assent for his Enlargement, so as there be a Course for their Reconciliation.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Sir Edw. Cecill, Mr. Alford, Sir Tho. Row, Sir H. Manwaring, Sir H. Withrington, Sir J. Jephson: These to set down, in Writing, what Satisfaction Mr. Coke shall give Sir Ch. Morrison: Which the best Way to salve both their Honours.

Out of the Respect the House hath to his Father, he shall be discharged from the Tower, and remain with his Father, in his Charge, till this Business determined, first by the Committee, and after by -