House of Commons Journal Volume 1
02 March 1607 (2nd scribe)

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1802

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'House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 02 March 1607 (2nd scribe)', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 1: 1547-1629 (1802). URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=230 Date accessed: 24 July 2014.


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Lunae, 2o die Martii, 1606

Iron Mills, &c.

1. Reading: - B. Touching Iron Mills, near the City of London; and for the Preservation of Woods in several Places.

Ecclesiastical Courts.

1. Reading: - B. For the more assured Execution of Justice in ecclesiastical Courts and Causes.

Victualling Houses.

1. Reading: - B. For Avoiding of Idleness, and for Reforming of Misdemeanors in Victualling Houses.

Union with Scotland.

Sir Fr. Bacon proceedeth with the Report. - This Part with more Attention, less Pleasure of - This keeps itself upright in his own proper Principles: Changes the Disposition. -

Q. Whether the post-nati of Scotland, whether naturalized. -

Concessa of both Sides: Confessed to be united: Confessed, distinct Laws. -

* Quest. -

Arg. 9 Reasons. -

As the Ten Commandments, Two Tables ; but One essential Form, Love. -

Whether several Allegiances, or distinct. -

1. Several Laws, several Allegiances. Law knit and beget Allegiance. -

Ex notatione nominis. - Lex, et ligeancia. Lex a ligando, legeancia a legendo. -

25 E. III. - Out of the Manner of Penning of that Statute. - Out of the Allegiance of England; not, out of the King of England.

2. Scotish post-nati not subject to the Obligation, and Jurisdiction, why should they should -

Qui sentit commodum -

3. Every Law national hath his precinct Limits; Circle, where it hath Operation. The Law works not in Scotland; ergo, how can there -

These matching of Laws -

A Degree higher. -

4. A potential Subjection to Law. - The Great Seal of England. - Ireland in the Isle of the Great Seal steers. - Declare Laws. - Potentially, not actually, subject.

5. If they were subordinate, or had Dependence, or Reliance, or did acknowledge ; like to Anjowe, Aquitaine; Where the Two Kings Writ, Habeas Corpus, &c. then some Reason, though neither potentially, nor actually, -

There was in Anjowe -

Receiver -

6. 7. Rex et regnum sunt relativa.

8. No Man could be subject to Two Allegiances. Faith and Allegiance is intire.

9. Inconvenience of Commixture of Honours, Profits. In Law Convenience. -

The other Part: - Inducement. - To cut off these auxiliary Forces, allow other Laws, but in those Cases, where it is referred to those Laws. -

First, Commendation of the Laws of -

Continuance : Price : Proceeding. -

These Laws unremoveable by any : - Romans, Brittains, Saxons, Danes, Normans. - If these Laws not the best, some, out of Affection, or Judgment, would have altered them; the Romans specially.

Price: - Written in Blood,

Proceeding. - No Tampering or Mixture of Law and Equity. -

Rather be subject to known Inconvenience, than to unknown Discretion. -

Not subject to Testimonies, wrapt up in Papers; but viva voce. -

3. - First, Reasons: Answ. Conjunction. - 3. Answ. general; 3 respective. -

Allegiance more spacious than the Laws : More -

1. In Extent of Time : Of Place. -

Three Times: Allegiance before Laws: Allegiance after Laws; Allegiance in Being, where Laws were asleep. -

After Submission grew somewhat: Kings did rule by natural Equity. The Laws begotten by [a] Allegiance, and not -

2. Time: A Case put: A King expulsed, yet a faithful Troop. - With the Laws are gone. Allegiance remains.

3. Time of War: Silent leges: Laws are asleep. Allegiance more martial Law. -

Extent of Place. -

A King travels. Sovereignty, and Allegiance, travels together. -

Fleta. - When E. I. went to Paris, a Servant purloined Silver Vessel: Both Kings demanded Cognizance: French King, for the Territory; English, for the Person. Decided for the King of England. The Party executed in St. Germain's Meadows.

2. Reason in gross. Allegiance respective to the Person, and not to the Bond politick. By the Tenor of divers Statutes, natural-born Subjects : Natural liege Lord. Politick and natural adverse. -

2. Proof. Spencer's Case. A dangerous Affirmation, that they were separable. -

2. Mistaken in the Naturalization. Protection divided, relative to Law, and not to Allegiance. -

25 E. III. as well Allegiance of England, as of the King of England, promiscue. -

In Case of Alien, the Law extends to the Person. -

The Law takes Knowledge of Treasons done beyond the Seas. -

The Law, any Englishman, born never so remote, yet natural. -

Authorities: Some Positions. -

1. Position : Wheresoever any sovereign Prince is entitled to any, by Descent, the Law creates him : The King cannot alter the Laws, which he hath by Descent. -

No Difference between a Kingdom, and a sovereign Duchy : Demonstrated by the Falling of Times. -

Lords of Ireland, Kings of Ireland: The Power all one. -

Brittaine coupled with Normandy, &c.

H. II. Four Sons ; H. Rich. Jeffrey, John. Jeffrey, married to the Dutchess of Little Brittaine, had Arthure. Arth. King of both. In this Time the Case was -

Statutes, Books, Judgments. -

Statute 17 E. II. Praerog Regis. All the Escheats, ad fidem Regis Angliae: Given to the King. -

42 E. III. Stat. Subjects of Calice were Petitioners, that they, that were born, be declared -

Answ. " Let it be according." -

Noted, the Petitioners of Calice no part of Anjowe, Normandy, Brittaine; but of Piccardie; claimed, but as Parcel of the K. of France, to which he was intirely. - Naturalization of another Kingdom. - That Statute directed by the Common Law. Calice a Member of the Kingdom of France. - Authorities : 27. Ass. Case of the Prior Alien not answ. The Matter not by way of Pleading but by Inquisition : - The special Matter. -

14 H. III. when you plead in France Alienisme, indefinitely : - In a Place certain : Not only in France. -

12 H. IV. 14 H. IV. - It might be in the Allegiance of the King of England. -

Littleton's Definition.

Precedents of Pleadings. -

Books of Entries. - Plead in a certain Place. -

Great Seal. - That much more weak. The Seals appertain to the absolute Prerogative. - He may change his Seals, not his Laws. - Coin : Conclusion of War, and Peace.

Notifying of the King's Pleasure may pass. -

Writs remedialia; Writs mandataria. The first pass only here; the other, his Pleasure, any where. -

Case of Ludlowe. -

King's Seal into Scotland. -

Earl of Angus to come, and serve in the Parliament of England. -

Writ of Error can never go, but where the same Law. -

Directions of State only to English, and not to those of Anjowe. -

A Fiction of Law. 14E. III. That Law to keep the Crowns several, but to make the Allegiance several. -

Denied. - Distracted Allegiance. - Case of all Denizens. - Ratione soli, ratione principis. -

Though any Scottishman be naturalized, hath no Ingress into the Nobility of England, by the Law : - Cannot be made Jurors, except they be returned by the Sheriff. -

The Case of Civilians, " Cum duo jura,'' &c. did not hold in personalibus. -

Marquis of Winchester - 5 Chapl. Earl 5. Baron 3. Thirteen in all, if it held in personalibus. -

Prayed, they would use some other at other Times, and not to oppress him with their Favours.

Sir Maurice Berkley: - Post-nati not naturalized. -

Those Laws written in the Blood of our Ancestors. - Never believe, that these Laws should admit such Inconveniences, as the Participation under One personal Subjection. -

Either must we declare it, as the Instrument, as it is; or declare not. -

First, against the Judges ; secondly, to the Judges. -

First to forbear the Deciding; then a Committee, to select all the Arguments pro et contra, set them down in Writing, and deliver them to the House.

Mr. Fuller: - The same Man, that is Judge in his Court, his Opinion is as another Man's in other Places, with great Reverence. -

In this Place none between us, and God; We are Judges; they but Counsellors, and Assistants. -

One Reason never made before. -

Allegiance a ligando: - Tied by Law; the King to the Subject, the Subject to the King. -

Juramentum Regis, quando coronatur, legitur by Mr Fuller. - No Part cleri Angliae. - A Reason drawn -

No Part. -

The King's Person cannot give away the Ports : Cannot naturalize.

Shall we naturalize all, the King standing still ?

Mr. Hyde differs. - A Proclamation. - Judges, saving One. -

To declare, were against Conscience, where we doubt. The Courses propounded will give just Discontent. -

As a Judge in Parliament, if there be any Rub, and not as clear as the Sun, to say, No. -

Post-nati, admitting naturalized, yet not capable of Inheritance by Ancestors: Not capable these 20 Years. -

Moves a Disability, until there be a perfect Union of Laws. -

Saving of the Prerogative: - Not at all to be put in, as it is in the Instrument. -

House to sit.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Rich. Swale, Sir John Tyndall: - My Lords have a Purpose to send a Message; therefore desire, we should sit a while the longer.

Such a Message I never saw.

Answ. That they would sit, till they hear. -

Union with Scotland.

Mr. Hoskins: - This Point being in Question in E. III. Time, it held Seven Years, before it received a Decision ; therefore we -

Sir Geo. Moore, - for Sir Maurice Berkleye's Proposition for the Arguments.

Mr. Bowes: - To go on in Debate for the Point of Conveniency, and to appoint a Committee.

Union with Scotland.

Sir John Crook, Mr. D. Stanhope -

The Messengers to come in again, and deliver it distinctly, that it may be taken, as it is, in Paper.

Message: Forasmuch as it is not unknown unto you, that, in all their Considerations and Consultations about the Union, they have kept an Uniformity with us, and that no one Part considerable hath been drawn to any Head, but by Conference; their Lordships conceiving, that no Part is yet decided, but One Branch only in. question, wherein they have delivered no Opinion, they have now thought good to move us to agree of some speedy Meeting about Naturalization in general; that both the Houses upon Conference, may the better judge of each others Inclination ; which they conceive to be the best Foundation, whereupon the whole Work may be builded.

This Message brought in Writing, and read out of a Paper, by the Messengers. The House, after the Messengers retired, called them in again, and caused them read it distinctly again, that the Clerk might write it. - Never seen before.

Answ. They will send Answer: The Matter being of great Consequence, they will consider of it, and send Answer, so soon as conveniently they may.