House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 05 May 1614

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 1, 1547-1629. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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'House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 05 May 1614', in Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 1, 1547-1629, (London, 1802) pp. 472-474. British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk/commons-jrnl/vol1/pp472-474 [accessed 19 March 2024]

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In this section

Jovis, 5o Maii

Gold and Silver.

L. 2. AN Act against the vain and wasteful Consumption of Gold and Silver, in gilding or silvering within this Kingdom. -

Mr. Hackwill: - Every Bill passing, Seven Trials. -

Will never assent to this Bill; for will never consent to any penal Law, except those which be for the Ease for the Subject; except a Probationer, that the Subject may at all Times make it die: and except a Clause in it of Proviso, that, if the King dispense with it, it shall be void. -

All the old penal Laws for the Ease and Benefit of the Subject.

Mr. Hoskyns: - That the other Bill may be read, and committed. -

Mr. Hoskyns, Mr. Hackwill, Mr. Brooke, Mr. Crew, Sir Jo. Sammes, Mr. Alford, Sir Wm. Strowde, Sir Francis Popham, Mr. Whitlocke, Sir Mervyn Awdeley, Mr. Fuller, Sir Roger Owen, Mr. Middleton, Sir Ed. Sands, Sir Jo. Savyle, Sir Robert Gardyner, Mr. Duncombe: - Friday in the Afternoon, in the Court of Wards.

Apparel.

L. 2. An Act concerning Apparel. -

Mr. Duncombe speaketh against Two Things in the Bill: 1. That left as a Prey to Catchpowles, and so Danger of Effusion of Blood: 2. Taking away the gilt Swords from all the Gentry. - That now more Number of Knights, than heretofore. That the Vanity in Women the most, yet too strait against the Women.

Mr. Fuller: - Never more Cause to provide a Law in this. - But speaketh against the Clause that disableth bearing of any Office: So for the Penalty against the Women.

Sir Robert Gardyner: - That the Greatness of the Penalty taketh away the Force of the Law ; as, Felony for hunting in Parks; false Bail; For either Judge or Jury will shew Mercy, where Blood to ensue. -

Referred to the same Committees, and at the same Place.

Supply.

Sir Edwyn Sands: - That, when Mr. Speaker offereth to speak, every Man ought to be silent. -

Impositions.

That this Day appointed for the King's Business.

Sir Jo. Savyle: - That a Report to be made, by the Order of the House. -

Marvelled, Sir Edw. Sands made not the Report. - That Mr. Speaker's Unwillingness in Fault. - That well requited for going out with so little Respect.

Sir H. Croftes: - That the ancient Order, that the Speaker ought first to rise, and go out with State ; and not to be tied to any Hour.

Sir Geor. Moore: - That the King's Supply, by an Order, upon the Question; the other, for the Report, not: Therefore the first to be embraced.

Mr. Brooke moveth to put off the Question.

Sir D. Digges, accordant.

Sir Edw. Sands: - Useth to avoid Prefaces. - Sometime, in this his Service, the Office of a Judge, which requireth Sincerity; sometimes of a Counsellor, to advise, which requireth Wisdom; sometimes of a Reporter, which requireth Fidelity.

That out of Misfortune of the former Bill, advise rather a Petition at the King's Feet, than a Bill at the Lords Bar. - That Two Petitions the last Parliament: The first particular, for Currants, and that answered; the other general, for 1100, never answered by Writing, but only by Word, by my Lord Treasurer. -

That some other Princes had imposed, but never claimed any Right: now the King had claimed it in open Parliament : They, upon Four or Five; the King, upon more than so many hundred: They, but for a few Months, and, at the Prayer of the Commons in Parliament, put down; here, made perpetual by Letters Parents. - That this Liberty of imposing holden to trench to the Foundation of all our Interests : That maketh us Bondmen : Giveth Use, but no Propriety. - May, by the same Reasons, make Laws without Parliament. - That an old written Manuscript, Tempore H. V. and Fortescue, and Sir Tho. Smyth, - that the King cannot impose without Parliament. -

That never any Impositions by Danes or Saxons, &c. till Ed. I. That he, in War, imposed; but, at the Prayer of the Commons, taken away. A Cesser in Ed. II. Time, in Ed. III. in Wars, again imposed, and a Claim; where the King prayed a Continuance for the Time: So, when

the Lion prayeth, and pleadeth Necessity, no Cause to think it his Right. - None after imposed, till Queen Marye's Time ; when Difference in Religion, Fear by the Spaniards: - Those then not many. - No good Counsellors that advised our most gracious and benign King to impose these, and make them perpetual. -

That moved at the Committee, that the Supply might stay till this determined : To which most inclined. -

Divers, to have this new debated; for that 300 new of the House, who not to judge by an implicit Faith -

Others, to crave a Conference in this with the Lords.

Mr. Fuller commendeth the Report; desireth the entertaining of a praying a Conference with the Lords. - That a Petition might go to the King, which the Lords might first see: That the Lords and Judges might see all the Causes of our Proceedings; whereby, hopeth, the Judges would satisfy both the Lords, and the King.

Mr. Brooke: - That not fit to petition the King; for his Answer before: For shall lose our Labour. - That we may take a Course not to lose our Labour. - That the framing of a Law, that the King cannot impose upon Home Commodities not exported; for that will imply the other; which he will never suffer. -

Moveth, to consider of the Bill, and pass it, as it shall be amended. - To tender this tenderly to the Lords, with special Recommendation to them; and that, if they doubtful, to desire a Conference, [where] they may be satisfied by the Judges. - If succeed ill, a fair Labour lost: The Burthen shall lie upon the Lords.

Mr. Thorpe: - That he intended the same Motion. - Addeth, that a Petition to his Majesty, if the Lords and we confer, that he would be pleased to be present. - Thinketh a Satisfaction to the King, from both Houses of Parliament, the best that may be.

Mr. Bulstroade : - That satisfied, the King no Power to impose. - Not fit to use a more hard Remedy by Bill. - Fit to present him first with a Present of Invitation, and then to petition him for Relief. -

That the King's Graces gratis datae.: - Wisheth they may be gratos facientes. - Sheweth himself to be as sensible of Impositions as any; and free from any Engagement.

Sir Ro. Gardiner: - That sets his Foot fearfully on the first Stair, - That Hanniball told Phormio he was a Fool to go about to teach him.

Sir Edw. Giles: - That the King will not have any Merchandize with us; therefore not to go with him Hand in Hand. -

Moveth for a Proceeding, both with Bill and Petition, to the Lords.

Sir H. Croftes: - That none ought to have interrupted Sir Ro. Gardyner, but the Speaker.

Sir J. Horsey findeth fault with Sir Herbert Crofte, for comparing the House to a Cock-pit: Taxeth him with assuming too much Regularity to himself.

Mr. Whitlocke : - That divers of the Things delivered by the King, which he hath merely by Information. - Moveth a joining with the Lords in this great Business, as done 13o Ed. III. Then a Petition to the King by both Houses: Advice then taken by the Judges. - Moveth first, his Majesty's Reasons may be first satisfied, whereby he is misinformed : In the Conference with the Lords, to satisfy his Majesty, that this no Flower of the Crown ; that this not used by his Predecessors; which the principal Reasons of the King's Opinion, and Resolution. - Dare affirm, that no Man can shew, upon Record, any Imposition before Ed. I. and none by him, but taken off by him; and that at the Complaint of his People, as wronged; tying himself to impose no more, without Parliament. - He a Soldier. - That Ed. II. no Soldier, imposed, but moderately, by way of Loan. That then an Ordinance against Impositions; so at his Death left them free. - Ed. III. laid some on in War; but taken off by him, as Wrongs. - That from this Time, till Queen Mary's, Time, none, without Imposition. So, if a Flower, a long Winter; not budding in 160 Year. In Queen Marye's Time, Two set on Wool and Wines: This done by Counsel of the Duke of * then a Counsellor here : Which he hath seen in Print: - None but sweet Wines (in - his Memory) in Queen Eliz. Time.

- That a Petition in 1 Eliz. of Right to take this away, as a Wrong; which referred to the Judges ; which not yet reported by them. No other Decree, or Judicial Judgment, till the Judgment in the Exchequer. - So moveth, first, to have his Majesty informed. - Moveth, not to proceed, as with a Duel with the King : Not to stand upon it, not to do for him, except he do this. The Duty from the King, Justice and Protection; from the Subject, Obedience, and Relief of his Estate. -

Moveth to proceed in our own Business, with true Hearts; in the King's, with loyal and loving Affections; and so to make it a Parliament of Love.

Mr. Mallet moveth a Proceeding by Bill. Moveth, no Treaty of Subsidies, till that determined; and that no Man may go to the King, except Mr. Speaker, to talk with him about Parliament Matters.

Sir Tho. Lake: - If desire to have the King present, some will acquaint him with it, and bring the King's Answer.

Mr. Fuller - That a Conference first with the Lords, before the King's Presence.

Mr. Ashley: - That the King's Supply calleth for Speed, the Commons Burthen, Ease. That in troubled Waters the Undertakers fish : Some for Profit, some for Preferment. - Precario, non vi. - Oportet, banisheth other Arguments. - Not fit to merchandize with the King, as petty Chapmen. - Beaten now from his former Proposition, by reason of the King's Answer of Claim of Right, and Resolution not to part with it. - The Counsellor per pestilentiam. - Excellentiam - he meaneth that Counsellor the King himself designed.

Moveth, to petition the King, but first to confer with the Lords.

That his Advice, to defer the Supply, in respect the Matter of the Undertakers. - That at his first coming to Town, informed what should be done for Four or Five Days ; and that punctually pursued. - Moveth, the King's Supply may be deferred, till the Matter for the Undertakers handled this Day.

Mr. Bawtry: - That forejudging occasioneth misjudging. - Not always Freedom of Speech here. - Liketh well, that there should be a great Care of the Country ; and that That be warmed by the Fire of a true Affection, not by Wild-fire; which consumeth all, and ceaseth not till all the Matter be spent. -

That the Two Silver Trumpets belonging to the King, ad convocandum, et demittendum, populum. - He having Power in this, whether we may defer to treat of his Supply.

He hissed at Mr. Speaker reprehendeth this.

Sir Jo. Sammes commendeth the Reprehension, but yet disliketh Mr. Bawtry's Speech. - That, till the Wild-fire quenched of Undertaking, no good Proceedings.

Mr. Hyde: - That no Power in the King to direct our Proceedings; as resolved the last Parliament: For, when we are here a free Council, to proceed as we shall think fit.

Mr. Towse moveth, to have a Conference with the Lords in Presence of the King.

Sir Edw. Sands moveth, to pray Aid of the Lords in this Matter for the Impositions. - That the King merely misinformed: That the Lords ignorant. The former Bill committed above, but not proceeded in at Committee, in respect of Respect to the King's Prerogative. - Not fit to have the Conference in Presence of the King: 1. In respect of the Length of the Business : 2. In respect, that there the King in his royal Seat, the Lords in State; we there as private Men. -

That in the Conference about the Change of the Name [of Great Britain,] and of the ante-nati. - That a Conference with the Lords, [If they join,] we shall have their Strength ; and this to be tendered in Writing, [as more durable;] if not, we may go [ourselves with our] Petitions, and annex the Reasons. - Moveth, to desire [the Lord's Advice,] whether to proceed by Bill, or Petition, or both : And [moveth a Committee,] to prepare

the Consideration of the Time, and other Circumstances [for the] Conference.

Mr. Whitson: - Not fit to have the King present; for, if he [present, none] dare reply: As Yesterday; that no Merchant a [Groat the worse] for him by Impositions : None durst reply ; yet every Merchant [there felt the Smart] thereof.

Resolved, upon the Question, to have a Conference with the [Lords] concerning Impositions.

Secondly, that a Committee, to prepare the Manner of this Conference.

All the Privy Council, Sir Edw. Sands, Mr. Attorney, Sir Roger Owen, Mr. Crew, Mr. Hoskyns, Sir Jo. Sammes, Mr. Fuller, Sir Geor. Moore, Mr. Whitlocke, Mr. Hackwill, Sir Ro. Gardyner, Sir Jo. Savyle, Sir D. Digges, Mr. Brooke, Mr. Ashley, Mr. Serjeant Mountague, Sir Herbert Croftes, Sir H. Nevill, Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Dunne, Sir Jo. Bennett, Sir Francis Lea, Mr. Jones, all the Lawyers of the House, Sir H. Wallopp, Sir H. Poole, Sir Francis Goodwyn, Sir Ro. Mansfeild, Sir Edw. Mountague, Sir Ed. Hobby, Sir Nich. Smyth, Mr. Towse, Mr. Middleton, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Sir Jo. Hollys, Mr. Delliverge, Mr. Whitson, Mr. James, Sir Maw. Berkeley, Sir Jerome Horsey, Sir Tho. Vavasor, Sir Francis Fane: - To meet To-morrow in this House.

[Mr. Middleton:] - That the Consent of Merchants never required to the [King's] imposing. - Thinketh, the Lion a Thorn in his Foot, [which] we here to pull out ; and wisheth we may do it mannerly, and with Respect to the Country. - Moveth for a [present] Supply of a Subsidy to be gathering, whilst we [are] treating of the great Things here; so pull out the Thorn. Then, if Thorns pulled out of our Feet too, we apply Balm, to heal the whole Sore. - That but One can be gathered at once.

Mr. Hoskyns: - That some like interfyring Horses, that the faster they go, the more they lame themselves. - That no Subject (not consiliarius natus) should forestall Parliament Businesses. -

Called to give Counsel, not give Money; no such Thing in the Writ. - Papers of Project cast abroad. Another, that if you give not, no more Parliaments; and that the King's Prerogative shall be extended. - That this House never in Fear. No Cause of Fear of not calling of Parliament: The King gaineth by them, not the Subject. If the Prerogative too far extended, then the Time for calling a Parliament of Love.

Mr. Alford: - His only Fear, we shall not part with the King in Love. - That imposing upon Corn, &c. in many Ports lighteth upon the Husbandman. - Moveth a deferring of the King's Supply.

Sir Tho. Lake moveth to put it to the Question, whether the King shall be supplied.

Sir A. Cope: - To proceed as Parliament-men in this. - Not fit to proceed to the Question now. - He, if it may be respited, resolved to give ; if now pressed, will deny it.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - To put it to Question, Whether a Question shall be made of the King's Supply, or not.

Sir H. Croftes: - That, To-morrow, at Nine of the Clock, to begin to treat of this.

Sir J. Horsey: - Holdeth it now unseasonable. - Preposterous to begin with Subsidies. - This at the wrong End. - Not to hazard the giving upon the Question now. Sir Tho. Grantham concurreth. Mr. Duncombe: - That those that press this now, shall do the King worst Service; for contrary to Custom: And a putting of the Question, to strain too far for the King ; which, instead of good, may do him hurt.

Sir Jo. Savyle: - That the Subsidies, in his Time, never came in this Manner, nor at this Time. That the Relation the last Time to the Country, that the King had suffered the Impositions to be treated of: Now to tell them, that the King will have Impositions, what Operation that will have. - Moveth to defer the Subsidies now.

Mr. Deliverge, accordant, in respect of the little Hope Yesterday of Relief of Impositions.

Sir Edw. Sands: - That the King desireth Supply. - Not to have One Negative at the giving of this Supply.

- Remembereth not in any Parliaments, for 25 Years, any Mention, at a Beginning of a Parliament, of Subsidies, except One, when Hannibal ad portas.

That Queen Eliz. never carried a Subsidy with One Negative : The King One Subsidy last Parliament, with about One or Two odd Voices. - That, if he should now gain divers Subsidies, with so many negative Voices, not honourable. -

Moveth also, that every Man's Demonstration of his Purpose to supply his Majesty, in due Time, may be informed by some of the honourable Persons.

Sir Wm. Cope moveth for a Message, to satisfy the King.

Sir D. Digges. -

Sir Roger Owen, - against a Message, for then the House shall be engaged. - That neither the King of Spayne, nor Fraunce, hath Power to impose without the Three Estates.

Mr. Serjeant Mountague moveth for a like Message, as the last Parliament.

Mr. Brooke. -

Mr. Secretary : - Though Annibal not ad portas; yet such the Wants of the State, as may be well said, intra portas Aquila, et Trojanus Equus. - Moveth an Assignment of a new Day.

Mr. Hackwell: - That not fit to put this now to the Question; but that the honourable Persons about the Chair, may, as voluntarily of themselves, inform the King, that generally all that have spoken (which are many) have, una voce, agreed in their Thoughts, and Speeches, to relieve his Majesty.

Sir Jerome Horsey, and Mr. Cheeke, accordant.