House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 26 November 1621

Lunae, 26o Novembris

Letters delivered to Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : - That, upon Saturday last, after the [House] rose, a Letter delivered him, open, directed to the Lord Mayor; and One, sealed, directed to this House; which some Gentleman of this House, being then at his House, thought fit to open, and found it of no Worth. That Mr. Pymme desired to have both the Letters, with Promise to bring them hither this Morning; and thereupon he delivered them to the said Mr. Pymme, who was now absent.

Supply - Palatinate,

Sir D. Digges: - To cast some Water upon the Fire.

- Rocks on the One Part, Sands on the other. - Will aim to continue the Love between the King and his People. -

That the Business put off till this Time, with Intent to further it - Upon the first News of the Battle of Prague, the King sent Al. Morton, to continue the Princes of the Union, with 30,000 l. then sent Sir Edw. Villyers, to comfort his Son-in-law and Daughter; then the Lord Digby to the Archduke, who then a great Well-willer of Peace. - Letters from the Kings of Spayne, Fraunce, Poland, Denmarke. - A Cessation of Arms upon it: Great Hopes of Peace. At length the Success not good: The Occasion, the Duke of Bavaria. - No yielding to a Truce for a very few Days. - The Question now, what to be done; Count Mansfeild now brought down with his Army: 40,000 l. already sent; this, and all, will be lost if this be not seconded. This the State of the Business. -

For the State of Christendom, which cannot be well seen into, without looking into the State of Religion; Spayne, and Italy, the principal Prop of the Romish Religion ; this Island, the Center of true Religion. For Fraunce;

the greater Part of the Romish Religion: The greater Part of Poland of the true Religion: Germany many Divisions (wherein Denmarke and Sweland wholly of the true Religion) and many of the true Religion. - Coupleth Lutherans and Calvenistes together; for both against the Romish - Means to keep all other indifferent. Spayne the Head of the Romish, our King, of the true, Religion. Spayne laboureth to keep all the Footing he hath, for Religion: - Wisheth, he do not so for Lands, &c. - The King laboureth it by Peace. In nothing an Over-balance; but the Sp. Ways open and plain; the King, upon wise and secret Ways. The first holdeth his Friends firm ; the second only [those,] which truly know his Intentions : The rest jealous * * . -

That no Man here doubteth of his Majesty's Care for Preservation of Religion. The King reconciled Denmarke and Sweden, and kept Poland from conquering Russia; by which Denmarke and Sweden preserved from Danger: Hath done the like, to settle Peace between the Dutch and Denmarke: Hath done the like for Fraunce. - That here may be Doubts and Jealousies, for Want of Knowlege of the King's Ways. -

That we must now enter into Consideration of doing and resolving somewhat; else Wrong to Religion in general, and to this Kingdom, and the King's Children, in particular. Fit to resolve to support the War, the King must be enforced to undertake; the King having tried all other Ways. - 1. To resolve upon a War. 2ly, To maintain the Army in the Palatinate. 3ly, To consult upon the Means, viz. a Diversion of the War; the King of Spayne having not been dainty to fall upon the Palatinate.

Sir Ben. Rudyard: - The Effects of this War will prove a War of Religion : Will eat up ours, if not withstood. The King of Spayne Six Armies on Foot. The Princes of the Union rest their Armies; the League continue theirs. - A thrifty Way, to maintain this Army in the Palatinate: - Much saved, in sending an Army thither. - Moveth, to take some Course for maintaining this Army; that so we do it not too late, and make the Enemies of our Religion and this House to rejoice.

Sir M. Fleetwood concurreth with Sir B. Rudyard. - This the greatest Cause he ever knew here; concerning our Religion. - A great Branch, the King's Daughter, and her Children, deprived of the Hopes of Sovereignty, and of their own particular Dominions. -

1. The Honour of God, and the Propagation of Religion : 2ly, The Honour we owe to our King in his Children : 3ly, The Good of the Kingdom. -

To part with our Livings, and Lives, for Religion.

- This moved Elyes Daughter more than the Loss of her Father. - Church, and Commonwealth, like Hippocrates' Twins. - Great Deliverances ever sithence our Profession of true Religion. - Powder Treason. - [We] a Mirror of God's Mercy : An Honour to our Friends; Terror to our Enemies. -

For the Honour of our King. - Defender of [the Faith,] by Profession, Government, Writing, - Not to * or discontent our King, by leaving this Business. -

For the Safety of our Kingdom. - No Plant well planted under a Cedar. - Not fit to suffer any One Monarch to grow too great. - King of Spayne Five great Armies, whereof One in the Lower Palatinate. The Duke of Bavaria seized of the Upper, as a Reward of his Service. - That these Princes so involved one in another, that, if any One of them continue their Forces, though the rest withdraw, we shall be in the same Hazard, and at the same Charge; the rather, because the Princes of the Union have abandoned their Forces, the Leaguers continue theirs. That this War will prove the Cause of Religion. King of Fraunce prosecuteth War against his own Subjects, for no other Cause. - Mordecai his Words to Hester applied to us, if we shall sit still, and do nothing. - A Consideration of a present Supply, whereby the Princes of the Union may be drawn to re-unite themselves again; and a future Consideration of what sitting hereafter. - Moveth, a Conference with the Lords, about the War, the Means of Maintenance of it, and the Manner ; whether by Diversion, or otherwise.

Sir J. Perrott: - He first moved the Matter, where-upon the Declaration was made. - Four Circumstances of Liberality taught by Aristotle: Cui, quare, quomodo, quando: All these necessary in this Business. -

1. Our Intention for the Maintenance of Religion in general. 2ly, Religion, and Possessions of the King's Children in the Palatinate. - Two of our Kings have restored Lands against the Turks, subdued Fraunce, conquered Ireland, upheld the Low Countries, braved and resisted Spayne. That H. VII. and H. VIII. conducted over Nine Armies: H. VII. Four, to the Support of the House of Austria against the French: H. VIII. other Five Armies into Fraunce: Four by Land, One by Sea: - General Norice at Gaunt, Lord Willoughby at Diepe and Bergen ap Some. -

That England poorer than it was: Money more scarce: Yet Money to be had. A fourth Part of the Coin in London: 200,000l. per Annum spent in Tobacco, for [which] Money; which will maintain 15,000 Men in the Field. - The great Concourse of Noblemen and Gentlemen to the [City,] and their Expences here. - The East India Company 1,500,000 l. in Stock: The Usurers as much. - Need now of lex sumptuaria. - Sending the Noblemen and Gentlemen home (without Cause, allowed by Parliament) will draw many down into the Country. - The great Quantities of Plate. - Is for a War of Diversion; as more easy, and more effectual. - A present Supply of Necessity. - To settle a Course at home, for Arms. - Not a Barrel of Powder in Two Counties; One, in Wales; another, in a Marcher County. - To look to Ireland, the Back-door. - What we give, to have it disposed to the End for which given. To have every Man pay the Sum he is in the Subsidy. - This Offer for himself; so as Assurance of our Religion at home, and the Jesuits, the Pope's Jenezaries, banished.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle: - That now the Passing-bell ringeth for Religion; but not yet dead. - Hopeth of Recovery ; and that it will be as strong again, as ever. -

Thinketh fit at this Time to do, not discourse. - To remember what we have promised. To give now what will maintain the Army in the Palatinate. Not now fit for the great Sum the Lord Treasurer spake of.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - That his Duty to God, the King, and his Country, now calleth him up. - The Proposition of Two Sorts : 1. For present Supply of the Army in the Palatinate: 2ly, For Consideration of a thorough War.

- Foreign and domestic Considerations. - In the foreign ; which like to oppose, and which to hinder, us. - The catholique States, in all the World, the great Wheel of Spayne, the little Wheel of Germany, may stand in our Way, especially fighting now with a victorious Sword. Our Friends, the Protestant Princes in Germany, in Fraunce, in the Low Countries: Little Hope of Help from these. The united Princes separated, and fallen from us. - Prayeth, our Sins have not occasioned it. - It maybe, they look not into, or like not, our Ways. - For the Low Countries (though a great Sympathy of Estate between us) hopeth, they will, notwithstanding their late Pride, and Occasions of Discontent to us, prove our best Friends, as nearest Neighbours; and will give us better Usage in Time to come. As they cannot subsist without us, we cannot well subsist, if they under any other King than us. -

[In] Fraunce, the miserable Estate of the Religion there giveth no Hope ; though hope, the King will in time see his own Error, in so lacerating his own People. - And the great Monarch of the Western World gapeth to add some Provinces of Fraunce to Navarra. - Doubteth, whether fit to trust to so great an Army, compounded of Strangers, as Count Mansfeild's is, without a Body of English to over-match him. -

That Hope of the Palatinate: For, if Spayne mean truly, as he pretendeth. Duke of Bavaria can do nothing to hurt us, without the Wheel of Spayne. -

Reputation, and Honour, a great Advancer of all great Designs. - Doubteth, we have no great Honour abroad, - God added a Crown to the Crown of England: God

took it away, If we had kept the Crown upon the Palatyne's Head (which we might have done, with as good Right, as some Christian Kings enjoy some Crowns, and with as little Charge, as now the Palatinate to be recovered) - Besides, the Palatinate, now gone ; and this by the Sp. Army, who have gotten, and kept it.- - -

The Inabilities of the State great now. Our Trade gone : Our Want of Money great: Not yet helped by Parliament, or Privy Council. - Doubteth, what we can do only for the Palatinate, without a War for Religion. -

No Security at Home, whiles the Papists, half Subjects, increase so much in Number and Confidence. Spayne hath their Hearts: What Hope then, these can be good Subjects ? - To look to these, for fear we be fought with at Home. - They grown insolent : Call us the Protestant Faction: Dispute their Religion, as if they had Laws for them. If this their Boldness be not timely prevented, great Danger from them, and nothing for us, but a late improvident Repentance. -

For present Supply for the Palatinate. - First, we began, as a Pledge of our Love, with Two Subsidies, and to sweeten the Business between the King and People. - The King's most gracious Acceptance: Yet Fear of future Precedents. - No Bill, or Pardon, passed; which, doubteth, will be offensive to the People. -

Moveth, sithence Hope of restoring of the Palatinate with Peace, to give now no Subsidy. - A small Matter will now maintain Count Mansfeild. The King may hasten the Time of 8 Febr. - To have now a Committee, for a Petition to the King : Therein to assure him, we will make it a Parliament of Union and * . Then, though Peace for the Palatinate, yet to begin with the King a * as we began.

Sir Edw. Gyles: - Our King the Chief of true Religion : The King of Spayne of the other. Either of these will do his best for their Religion. How can these Two great Kings agree in Peace, and yet have Wars ? Our King sincere: They break with, undermine us, and break all Conditions, when it concerneth their Religion. -

For the Defence of the Palatinate; to think of Queen Eliz. Course. She found out his Indies: Sought him at Home. - To fortify ourselves abroad and at Home. - Popery much increased; grown braving, and daring. Sweete, a notorious Jesuit, taken in his Country, hath confessed, 500, at least, Jesuits in England, whereof he the meanest. These come for no Good. A Popish Taylor's Boy, examined, confessed, he heard his Master say, he hoped, or wished, to see, e'er long, a new catholique King in England, who would deliver the Prisoners in London; and, for the Puritans, put them to go seek their Living. -

To secure the King's Person from these, and the Commonwealth ; then to provide for the Palatinate. - That we have to do with the King of Spayne. - The King's Navy may make us One of the richest Kingdoms in the World. -

To treat with the Emperor, and Duke of Bavaria, with our Swords in our Hands. - Hopeth of no Peace from either of them. - Not to think of Peace, or desire it, except the King of Spayne, Emperor, and Duke of Bavaria, shall desire it. Above all Things, to seek for securing true Religion amongst us.

Mr. Secretary : - Disableth himself: Applieth himself to Sir Ro. Phillippes' Speech. - That his Conclusion was, not at this Time to give Supply for the Palatinate. - 1. His Reasons were, that our Friends have left us. - True, the Princes of the Union have left us, because they could hold no longer. - Thinketh they therein not respectful, as should have been, to the Palatyne. - The Reason of the not Supplying then, because the King of Bohemia then in Possession of Bohemia; which Quarrel, the King ever disclaimed; but, after he divested of that Kingdom, the King sent Supply. Our King's not appearing in that Quarrel the Cause of their Disuniting. If the King once appear in the War, no doubt, but Denmarke, and the other united Princes, will assist. No doubt, but the Low Countries will assist, as their best Means for themselves: And so have done, notwithstanding their own Occasions. - Confesseth, no Hope of Help yet from Fraunce. -

For the Hope of Peace by Spayne, knoweth not, what Hopes: Wisheth; our King not to trust him too far. - Will hold Peace no longer, than whilst serveth his own Turn; then will break. - To have the King treat with his Sword in his Hand. - Commendeth Sir Ro. Phillippes' Motion, to look to the Papists. - Not to stay longer. - Hoc unum nunc necessarium. - Remembereth our Declaration; our Honour to Sir H. Vere's Bill; Floyde's Punishment. Not now to act in Compliment only. - This Diversion worse, than the diverting War good.

Sir Geor. Hastings: - The King's Honour now engaged. - To land 20, or 30,000 Men in the Infanta's Country: Every Parish to maintain a Man. This to be done before Christmas; because Spinola, her General, hath taken the Palatinate from us. - Easier to win twice as much in that Country, as the Palatinates worth, and with less Charge than to recover the Palatinate.- - And, sithence Spayne the Fountain, from whence all cometh, to take a Course to stop the Fountains of Spayne. This will enrich us; where relying merely upon a defensive War will exhaust our Treasure, and make us poor. - Wisheth, sithence the King resolved now to take his Sword into his Hand, the Scabbard might be thrown away, and we shew ourselves Englishmen.

Sir Geor. Moore : - Our Words will hardly be kept in here; but our Deeds must needs go abroad. - . The Cause concerneth Religion, the Child of God. Professors of Religion in Bohemia martyred; oppressed in Germany and Fraunce; we here in Peace: The King's Children displaced ; like to lose their Possessions : The Enemies known, all maintained by the King of Spayne. This discovered to us by the King: We all see it: The Letters were read to us. Quid faciemus ? the Question. We have made a Declaration in Words, let us not defer in Actions. - This will give a great Blow to Religion. - War to be entered into. Rare, to have any Matter of War handled here: Yet 27o Eliz. the Sovereignty of the Low Countries offered Queen Eliz. debated here whether to be accepted, and [how] to be maintained. - 20,000 Men in the Palatinate: Hope of many Princes to assist the King; especially, when the Love of this House, and Readiness, known. -

Queen Eliz. but Queen of England, opposed both Rome and Spayne; assisted Fraunce, and the Low Countries : How then the King of Great Brittany ? - Some Supply of Necessity; yet to respect our Countries too, who now poor: For, if we give, they must pay. - Moveth (though rare, in One Parliament, to grant Subsidies more than Once) to grant now Fifteens, for a present Supply; which will be easily borne ; and for their Encouragement, to move his Majesty, to pass some Bills, and have a liberal Pardon.

Mr. Glanvyle: - Will not play the Statesman. - The Declaration intended a parliamentary Course. - If will not find Difficulties, when none are, may presently give Supply. - Only Bills, to give the People Content. - Five Things considerable, to be presently provided for: 1. Religion : For this, Bills in good Forwardness. - The Remonstrance to his Majesty for Religion, by the Lord Chancellor. 2ly, Trade : For which also Bills quickly may be made ready. 3ly, Matter of Justice : For which Bills: Two already : Informers, and Certioraris. 4ly, Bill of Continuances. 5ly, A Pardon : Which easily will be done. - Moveth, One Subsidy, and One Fifteen, payable within Two or Three Months after the Payment of the Subsidy, already granted; and, by all Means, to have a Session. - A Committee for the Supply.

Mr. Crew: - His Speaking against giving now, proceedeth neither from Diversion, nor Denial. - Ph. Comines, - That we lose more by Treaties, than we win by Battles. - Now to be recovered by the Sword only. - Poverty, and Impossibility, the Impediments to our Love and Force. - Wools fallen from 32, to 22s. - To know our Enemy. - Five or Six Spanish Armies:

- To see who payeth them : Even Spayne; who hath the West Indy open to him, shut to us. - To petition the King, to open it. - Our Ships our Walls. - If we might have Hope, our Prince might be matched to One of our Religion, and we might know who were our Enemies, would consent to give willingly, and freely; celeri et plena manu. - To clear the Kingdom of Jesuits: To speed our Bills, which may be made ready; and a Pardon, large and bountiful, according to the King's Heart - Old Debts; debita desperato, the Title of them: Alienation, without Licence: Liveries ouster l'amains: Concealed Wardships. -

To know our true Enemy. - To have our Ships * our Hands open. - To give now, or else to promise so, as may be a Pledge sufficient for the City to lay down the Money.

Mr. Mallett: - Will neither divert nor deny giving, nor make any Contract about giving. - We are engaged ; and for a Gilt answerable to the Thing. - To go on with Subsidy presently. For an Army of our own to go into the Palatinate. - To secure our Religion at Home, from Jesuits, Papists. - Two or Three Subsidies, with so many Fifteens, with some Cautions. - To have a Committee appointed for this : Then a Conference with the Lords.

Mr. Pymme bringeth forth the Letter before-mentioned.

Business to be done.

Sir Tho. Wentworth propoundeth, this Debate may be be put off till Saturday; and, in the mean time, go on with the Propositions he made before. - To-morrow, to consider of the Course to draw to an End of a Session, without which we lose the Fruit. - 1. To have a Session before Christmas. 2ly, A Pardon. 3ly, The Bill of Continuance, 4ly, The Grievances to be reduced into a parliamentary Course, and be tendered at the End of the Sessions. 5ly, To expedite the Bills we have, and entertain no more.

Debate deferred.

Resolved, That Debate of this great Business to be deferred till To-morrow, and then to be renewed again.