House of Lords Journal Volume 19
15 June 1714

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 19: 15 June 1714', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 19: 1709-1714 (1767-1830), pp. 716-718. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=30230 Date accessed: 23 October 2014.


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DIE Martis, 15 Junii.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

Arch. Ebor.
Epus. London.
Epus. Eliens.
Epus. Bangor.
Epus. Bath & Well.
Epus. Lincoln.
Epus. Landaven.
Epus. Asaphen.
Epus. Hereford.
Epus. Meneven.
Epus. Roffen.
Epus. Bristol.
Epus. Cestrien.
Ds. Harcourt, Cancellarius.
Comes Oxon. & Mort. Thesaurarius.
Dux Bucks & Nor. Præses.
Comes Dartmouth, Custos Privati Sigilli.
Dux Somerset.
Dux Cleveland.
Dux Grafton.
Dux Ormonde.
Dux Northumberland.
Dux Bolton.
Dux Schonburg.
Dux Devon.
Dux Montagu.
Dux Kent.
March. Dorchester.
Comes Poulet, Senescallus.
Comes Derby.
Comes Pembroke.
Comes Lincoln.
Comes Suffolk.
Comes Dorset.
Comes Salisbury.
Comes Northampton.
Comes Denbigh.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Berks.
Comes Sunderland.
Comes Scarsdale.
Comes Clarendon.
Comes Anglesey.
Comes Carlisle.
Comes Radnor.
Comes Yarmouth.
Comes Berkeley.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Rochester.
Comes Abingdon.
Comes Plimouth.
Comes Portland.
Comes Torrington.
Comes Scarbrough.
Comes Bradford.
Comes Orford.
Comes Jersey.
Comes Grantham.
Comes Greenwich.
Comes Wharton.
Comes Cholmondeley.
Comes Mar.
Comes Eglintoun.
Comes Loudoun.
Comes Findlater.
Comes Northesk.
Comes Dundonald.
Comes Dunmore.
Comes Orkney.
Comes Roseberie.
Comes Portmore.
Viscount Say & Seale.
Viscount Townshend.
Viscount Weymouth.
Viscount Longueville.
Viscount Kilsyth.
Viscount Bolingbroke.
Ds. Delawar.
Ds. Fitzwalter.
Ds. Willughby Br.
Ds. North & Grey.
Ds. Hunsdon.
Ds. St. John.
Ds. Compton.
Ds. Bruce.
Ds. Rockingham.
Ds. Berkeley.
Ds. Cornwallis.
Ds. Carteret.
Ds. Ossulstone.
Ds. Guilford.
Ds. Ashburnham.
Ds. Weston.
Ds. Haversham.
Ds. Sommers.
Ds. Halifax.
Ds. Harvey.
Ds. Cowper.
Ds. Balmerino.
Ds. Hay.
Ds. Montjoy.
Ds. Mansel.
Ds. Trevor.
Ds. Masham.
Ds. Foley.
Ds. Bathurst.
Ds. Bingley.

PRAYERS.

Prendergast's Bill:

Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act, to enable Sir Thomas Prendergast Baronet, an Infant, to sell Part of his Estate, lying in the County of Waterford, in the Kingdom of Ireland, for Payment of his Father's Debts, and other Purposes therein mentioned."

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Message to H. C. with it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Orlebar and Mr. Dormer:

To carry down the said Bill, and desire their Concurrence thereunto.

Bristol Poor, Bill.

Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for making more effectual an Act, passed in the Seventh and Eighth Year of the Reign of His late Majesty King William the Third, intituled, An Act for erecting of Hospitals and Workhouses within the City of Bristol, for the better employing and maintaining the Poor thereof."

Faulkner versus Baird & al.

The House being moved, "That a Day may be appointed, for hearing the Cause wherein John Faulconer Esquire and others are Appellants, and John Mushet, Sir James Baird, and others, Respondents:"

It is Ordered, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That this House will hear the said Cause, by Counsel, at the Bar, on Friday the Twenty-fifth Day of this Instant June, at Eleven a Clock.

Tobacco Trade, Bill.

Hodie 2a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for encouraging the Tobacco Trade.

Ordered, That the said Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House, To-morrow.

Ordered, That the Paper laid before this House the Fifth Instant, intituled, "Answer of the Commissioners for Trade and Plantations, to an Order of the Right Honourable the House of Lords of the 1st of June 1714, relating to the Tobacco Trade," be referred to the said Committee; and that some of the Commissioners of the Customs do attend.

Schism, to prevent the Growth of, Bill:

Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act to prevent the Growth of Schism; and for the further Security of the Church of England as by Law established."

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill, with the Amendments, shall pass?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

"Dissentient.

Protest against it:

"1. We cannot apprehend (as the Bill recites) that great Danger may ensue from the Diffenters to the Church and State;

"Because,

"1. By Law no Diffenter is capable of any Station, which can be supposed to render him dangerous.

"2. And since the several Sects of Diffenters differ from each other as much as they do from the Established Church, they can never form of themselves a National Church; nor have they any Temptation to set up any one Sect among them; for, in that Case, all that the other Sects can expect is only a Toleration, which they already enjoy by the Indulgence of the State; and therefore' tis their Interest to support the Established Church, against any other Sect that would attempt to destroy it.

"If, nevertheless, the Diffenters were dangerous, Severity is not so proper and effectual a Method to reduce them to the Church as a charitable Indulgence, as is manifest by Experience; there having been many more Diffenters reconciled to the Church since the Act of Toleration, than in all the Time from the Act of Uniformity to the Time of the said Act of Toleration; and there is scarce One considerable Family in England in Communion with the Dissenters: Severity may make Men Hypocrites, but not Converts.

"3. If Severity could be supposed ever to be of Use, yet this is not a proper Time for it, while we are threatened with much greater Dangers to our Church and Nation, against which the Protestant Diffenters have joined, and are still willing to join with us, in our Defence: And therefore we should not drive them from us, by enforcing the Laws against them, in a Matter, which, of all others, must most sensibly grieve them, (videlicet,) the Education of their Children; which reduces them to the Necessity either of breeding them in a Way which they do not approve, or leaving them without Instruction.

"4. This must be the more grievous to the Dissenters, because it was little expected from the Members of the Established Church, after so favourable an Indulgence to them as the Act of Toleration, and the repeated Declarations and Professions from the Throne, and former Parliaments, against all Persecution, which is the peculiar Badge of the Roman Church, which avows and practises this Doctrine: And yet this has not been retaliated even upon Papists; for all the Laws made against them have been the Effect, and just Punishment, of the Treasons from Time to Time committed against the State. But it is not pretended that this Bill is designed as a Punishment of any Crime which the Protestant Dissenters have been guilty of against the Civil Government, or that they are disaffected to the Protestant Succession as by Law established; for in this their Zeal is very conspicuous.

"5. In all the Instances of making Laws, or of a rigid Execution of the Laws, against Dissenters, it is very remarkable, that the Design was to weaken the Church, and to drive them into one common Interest with the Papists, and to join them in Measures tending to the Destruction of it: This was the Method suggested by Popish Counsels, to prepare them for the Two successive Declarations in the Time of King Charles the 2d, and the following One issued by King James the 2d, to ruin all our Civil and Religious Rights: And we cannot think that the Arts and Contrivances of the Papists to subvert our Church are proper Means to preserve it; especially at a Time when we are in more Danger of Popery than ever, by the Designs of the Pretender, supported by the mighty Power of the French King, who is engaged to extirpate our Religion, and by great Numbers in this Kingdom who are professedly in his Interests.

"6. But if the Dissenters should not be provoked, by this Severity, to concur in the Destruction of their Country and the Protestant Religion, yet we may justly fear they may be driven by this Bill from England, to the great Prejudice of our Manufactures; for, as we gained them by the Persecutions Abroad, so we may lose them by the like Proceedings at Home.

"7. Lastly, The Miseries we apprehend here are greatly enhanced by extending this Bill to Ireland, where the Consequences of it may be fatal; for since the Number of Papists in that Kingdom far exceeds all the Protestants of all Denominations together, and that the Dissenters are to be treated as Enemies, or at least as Persons dangerous to that Church and State, who have always in all Times joined, and would still join, with the Members of that Church, in their common Defence, against the common Enemy of their Religion; and since the Army there is very much reduced; the Protestants, thus unnecessarily divided, seem to us to be exposed to the Danger of another Massacre, and the Protestant Religion in Danger of being extirpated.

"And we may further fear, that the Scotch in Britain, whose National Church is Presbyterian, will not so heartily and zealously join with us in our Defence, when they see those of the same Nation, the same Blood, and the same Religion, so hardly treated by us.

"And this will still be more grievous to the Protestant Dissenters in Ireland, because, whilst the Popish Priests are registered, and so indulged by Law as that they exercise their Religion without Molestation, the Dissenters are so far from enjoying the like Toleration, that the Laws are by this Bill enforced against them.

"Torrington.

"Dorchester. Somerset.

"Bolton. Dorset & Middlesex.

"T. Wharton.

"Grafton.

"Devonshire. Townshend. Carlisle.

"Scarbrough. Sunderland.

"Derby. Cornwallis.

"Lincoln. Orford.

"Nottingham.

"Radnor. Somers.

"Rockingham.

"Haversham.

"W. Lincoln. J. Ely. Jo. Bangor.

"Foley.

"W. Asaph. Jo. Landaff.

"Schonburg & Leinster.

"Montagu.

"Drlongueville.

"Halifax.

"Cowper. Greenwich."

Message to H. C. with the Bill.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Meller and Mr. Orlebar:

To return the Bill, intituled, "An Act to prevent the Growth of Schism; and for the further Security of the Church of England as by Law established;" and to acquaint them, that the Lords have agreed to the same, with several Amendments, whereunto they desire their Concurrence.

Acts, to avoid Dangers from Recurants, and for settling the

Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for rendering more effectual an Act, made in the Third

Presentations to Benefices of Papists, Bill to render more effectual.

Year of the Reign of King James the First, intituled, An Act to prevent and avoid Dangers which may grow by Popish Recusants; and also of One other Act, made in the First Year of the Reign of Their late Majesties King William and Queen Mary, intituled, An Act to vest in the Two Universities the Presentations of Benefices belonging to Papists."

Ordered, That the said Bill be read a Second Time To-morrow.

Stealing and killing Cattle, to prevent, Bill.

Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for the more effectual preventing and punishing the stealing or unlawful killing of Cattle."

Causes put off.

Ordered, That the Cause wherein Grace and Rachel Douglas are Appellants, and James More is Respondent, be heard on Thursday next; and the other Causes removed in Course.

Queen's Bounty to poor Clergy, Bill.

Ordered, That the House be put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act for the making more effectual Her Majesty's gracious Intentions, for the Augmentation of the Maintenance of the Poor Clergy," To-morrow, after the Business already appointed.

Adjourn.

Dominus Cancellarius declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque ad & in diem Mercurii, decimum sextum diem instantis Junii, hora duodecima, Dominis sic decernentibus.