House of Lords Journal Volume 3
12 April 1624

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 3: 12 April 1624', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 3: 1620-1628 (1767-1830), pp. 298-301. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=30396 Date accessed: 21 August 2014.


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DIE Lunæ, videlicet, 12 die Aprilis,

Domini (fn. *) tam Spirituales quam Temporales, quorum nomina subscribuntur, præsentes fuerunt:

p. Carolus Princeps Walliæ, etc.

p. Archiepus. Cant.
Archiepus. Eborum.
p. Epus. London.
p. Epus. Dunelm.
p. Epus. Winton.
Epus. Petriburg.
Epus. Hereforden.
Epus. Wigorn.
Epus. Norwic.
p. Epus. Roffen.
Epus. Glocestren.
Epus. Carlien.
p. Epus. Co. et Lich.
p. Epus. Bath. et W.
p. Epus. Bangor.
p. Epus. Elien.
Epus. Cicestren.
p. Epus. Oxon.
Epus. Cestren.
p. Epus. Landaven.
p. Epus. Sarum.
p. Epus. Exon.
p. Epus. Meneven.
p. Epus. Bristol.
p. Epus. Asaphen.
p. Epus. Lincoln, Ds. Custos Mag. Sigilli.
p. Comes Midd. Mag. Thes. Angliæ.
p. Vicecomes Maundevill, Præs. Conc. Domini Regis.
p. Comes Wigorn. Ds. Custos Privati Sigilli.
p. Dux Buck. Mag. Adm. Angliæ.
Marchio Winton.
Comes Oxon. Mag. Camer. Angliæ.
Comes Arundell et Surr. Comes Marescallus Angliæ.
p. Comes Cantabr. Sen. Hospitii.
p. Comes Pembroc, Camer. Hospitii.
Comes Northumbriæ.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Salop.
p. Comes Kanciæ.
Comes Derbiæ.
p. Comes Rutland.
Comes Cumbriæ.
Comes Sussex.
Comes Huntingdon.
Comes Bath.
p. Comes South'ton.
Comes Bedd.
Comes Hertford.
p. Comes Essex.
p. Comes Lincoln.
Comes Suffolciæ.
Comes Dorset.
p. Comes Sarum.
p. Comes Exon.
p. Comes Mountgomery.
p. Comes Bridgwater.
Comes Leicestriæ.
p. Comes North'ton.
Comes Warwic.
p. Comes Devon.
Comes March.
Comes Holdernesse.
p. Comes Carlile.
p. Comes Denbigh.
Comes Bristol.
p. Comes Anglisey.
Vicecomes Mountague.
Vicecomes Wallingford.
Vicecomes Purbeck.
p. Vicecomes Maunsfeild.
Vicecomes Colchester.
p. Vicecomes Rochford.
p. Vicecomes Andever.
Vicecomes Tunbridge.
Ds. Abergavenny.
Ds. Audley.
Ds. Zouch.
p. Ds. Willoughby.
p. Ds. Delawarr.
p. Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Morley et Mont.
Ds. Dacres de Her.
Ds. Stafford.
p. Ds. Scroope.
p. Ds. Duddeley.
p. Ds. Stourton.
Ds. Herbert de Sh.
p. Ds. Darcy de Men.
Ds. Vaux.
Ds. Windsore.
p. Ds. Wentworth.
p. Ds. Mordant.
p. Ds. St. John de Bas.
p. Ds. Cromewell.
Ds. Evre.
p. Ds. Sheffeild.
p. Ds. Paget.
p. Ds. North.
p. Ds.St. John de (fn. *) Bl.
p. Ds. Howard de W.
Ds. Wootton.
Ds. Russell.
p. Ds. Gray de Groby.
Ds. Petre.
p. Ds. Danvers.
p. Ds. Spencer.
p. Ds. Say et Seale.
p. Ds. Denny.
p. Ds. Stanhope de H.
p. Ds. Carew.
Ds. Arundell de W.
p. Ds. Haughton.
Ds. Teynham.
Ds. Stanhope de Sh.
Ds. Noel.
p. Ds. Brooke.
p. Ds. Mountague.
p. Ds. Cary de Lep.
Ds. Kensington.
p. Ds. Grey de W.

Monopolies.

MESSAGE from the House of Commons, by Mr. Secretary Calverte and others: That whereas this Afternoon was appointed by their Lordships for a Conference, touching the Bill of Monopolies; there intervening this Occasion, that a Lord of this House desiring to be heard by his Counsel in their House this Afternoon, they have yielded unto it; and therefore they humbly desire to be excused from that Conference; and what other Time soever their Lordships shall appoint for the same, they will attend.

Concealments.

The Messenger also recommended unto their Lordships the Bill touching Concealments, for the same Causes that the House of Commons did formerly commend the same.

Monopolies.

Answered: That the Lords have appointed the Conference touching Monopolies to be To-morrow, at Two in the Afternoon, in the Painted Chamber.

Concealments.

That their Lordships have taken the Bill of Concealments into their serious Considerations, and have given it One Reading, and will give it another with all convenient Speed.

A Lord accused in H. C.

The House was moved to consider, That it might trench deep into their Privileges, for a Lord of this House to answer an Accusation in the House of Commons, either by his Counsel, or by sending his Answer in Writing.

Lord Treasurer accused by H. C.

This was moved, in respect that the Lord Treasurer had desired to be heard before the Commons this Day by his Counsel.

And it appeared unto their Lordships, That the House of Commons were very respectful of the Privileges of this House, and did not require any Answer from the Lord Treasurer unto the Complaints exhibited to them concerning his Lordship; but that some of their House moving for a Copy of the said Complaints to be sent unto the Lord Treasurer, they Ordered, That his Lordship might have Copies thereof, if he pleased, and Liberty to answer them also if he pleased.

Leave to answer.

Whereupon their Lordships also, at the humble Request of the Lord Treasurer, gave him Leave to send his Answer to the said Complaints unto the Commons, if he pleased.

Lords accused in H. C. not to answer without Licence.

And it is Ordered, That no Lord of this House may, without Licence of the House, answer any Complaint in the House of Commons, neither in Person nor by his Counsel.

Munitions.

The Lord Archbishop of Cant. reported to the House, That a Committee being appointed to consider of the Store of Munitions, &c. somewhat happened in the Consideration thereof, which touched the Lord Treasurer in his Honour; whereupon his Lordship desired, that the utmost Truth thereof might be inquired and examined; and accordingly Witnesses have been sworn here, and a Sub-committee appointed to take their Examinations; which being done, the Lords of the Subcommittee have reported the same unto those of the Committee; the which, being in Writing, his Grace delivered to be read.

Before this Report was read, the Lord Keeper signified, That he had received a Petition from Sir Thomas Dallyson, delivered unto him by a Member of this House, who desires that it may be read before the said Report.

Which Petition was read, in bæc Verba: videlicet,

Dallyson's Petition against Lord Treasurer.

"To the Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal assembled in the High Court of Parliament.

"The humble Petition of Sir Thomas Dallyson, Son of Sir Roger Dallison, Knight and Baronet, deceased.

"Whereas there was an Examination, before a Committee of your Honours, concerning the Lands of his said Father, compounded for by the Lord Treasurer, whereupon there is an Account given to your Lordships by one Mayle, a Scrivener, on his Lordship's Behalf, of Twenty-six Thousand Pounds, or thereabouts, to be given by the said Lord Treasurer for the same Land, as the said Mayle reporteth:

"Now for that this Petitioner and his Mother were forced out of their Estate therein by his Lordship, for a very small Matter, by Colour of His Majesty's Extent; and is able to make it appear to your Honours that there hath not been much above Half the said Sum of Twenty-six Thousand Pounds really, either in Money or Money's-worth, given for the same by his Lordship; and for that the said Lands are of a far greater Value; and this Petitioner ought, in all Equity (as he conceiveth), to have the Benefit of compounding his Father's Debts, and the Benefit that should accrue by the Surplusage of the Estate:

"He most humbly desireth your Honours to stay the Report, and grant your Petitioner a Copy of the same Account, before the same pass from the Lords of the Committee; and that your Petitioner may be admitted to make such just Exceptions thereunto, as to the Honourable Lords of the Committee shall seem reasonable.

"And he shall ever pray for your Honours.

"Thomas Dalyson."

Ld. Treasurer may be present at the Report.

It was moved also, Whether, by the Orders of this House, the Lord Treasurer may be present when this Report is read, for that the same concerns his Honour.

And Agreed, That his Lordship may be present at the first Reading thereof, but not when the same shall be debated or handled by the House.

Mr. Attorney read the Report, in bæc verba:

Report from the Committee for Munitions, &c.

"The State of the Business referred to the Sub-committee for Munition.

"28 May, 6° Jac. A Privy Seal was directed to the Lord Treasurer, and Under Treasurer of the Exchequer, for the Time being, for the issuing of such Sums of Money, not exceeding Six Thousand Pounds per Annum, as by Quarter Books should appear to be due to the Office of Ordnance, for Wages or Provisions.

"This Allowance was duly paid until the First of April 1614; but then, or shortly after, by the Default of Sir Roger Dalyson, and of the Officers of the Exchequer, sundry Payments were unorderly made, whereby the Office was unfurnished; and Dalison, who had received those Moneys and not employed them as he ought, became indebted in great Arrears unto His Majesty:

"Upon Complaint whereof, in November 1617, His Majesty made a Reference to divers of the Lords of the Council, who, in December 1617, returned under their Hands a Proportion of Supply, estimated at Fifty-four Thousand and Seventy-eight Pounds, Eight Shillings, and Eight Pence.

"In February 1619, His Majesty's Commission was awarded to the Commissioners for the Navy, whereof the now Lord Treasurer was one of the chief, to survey the Office of Ordnance; and they, in July 1620, made a Return thereby, desiring their Opinions how the Magazines might be furnished with a present Supply of Thirteen Thousand Six Hundred and Forty Pounds, Fourteen Shillings, and Two Pence; how the ordinary Allowance of Six Thousand Pounds per Annum might be reduced to Three Thousand; and how, by cutting off many unnecessary Charges, and other Means, His Majesty might save yearly near Ten Thousand Pounds. And these Propositions, made by them in Michaelmas Term 1620, received Allowance from the Lords, and at last from His Majesty himself.

"In December 1620, the Lord Maundevill became Treasurer; and, in May 1621, a Privy Seal was drawn by the Officers of the Ordnance, for settling of the said Three Thousand Pounds yearly, and for Payment of the said Thirteen Thousand Six Hundred and Forty Pounds, Fourteen Shillings and Two Pence; but the same, being considered of by the Commissioners of the Navy, was rejected, because it swerved from their Propositions; and so, the Lord Maundevill leaving the Treasurership about Michaelmas next 1621, nothing was done in this Time.

"In October 1621, the Earl of Midd. became Lord Treasurer; and having continued that Place Two Years and Six Months, in all that Time none of the Three Establishments; videlicet, That of 6° Jac. by the dormant Privy Seal; that of 1617, by the Lords; nor that of the Commissioners of the Navy, in 1620; have been observed, whereas if that of the Commissioners of the Navy, being the least chargeable to His Majesty, and in which the Lord Treasurer himself was a principal Agent, had been observed; it is conceived, that the Stores had been in much better Case, and a Course had therein been settled to have retrenched a needless Charge of near Ten Thousand Pounds per Annum, as aforesaid.

"And whereas, in April 1621, a Contract was made with Mr. Evelyn, to serve His Majesty yearly with Eighty Lasts of Powder, at Seven Pence the Pound; the Want of Payment of about Five Hundred Pounds a Month hath deprived His Majesty of the Benefit of that Contract, which, for Twenty Months of the Time since that Contract, hath been forborne, for Want of Payment; which Twenty Months Proportion, if it had been served in, there would have been in Store at this present Two Hundred Sixty and odd Lasts of Powder, besides Sixty Lasts of Salt-petre, which would have made Eighty Lasts of Powder more; but, by the Want of due Payment, not only the Store is now unfurnished of so considerable a Proportion, but His Majesty, as is conceived, further hath lost the Benefit of Three Pence in every Pound of Eighty Lasts which should be sold to the Subject, amounting to Four Thousand and Fifty Pounds, or thereabouts.

"And whereas it was intimated that the Lord Treasurer hath made other Payments, less importing the Public, to the said Office of Ordnance, for old Arrears, which have a Dependancy upon another Point referred to the Sub-committees, touching the Lands and Debts of Sir Roger Dalyson; it appears that, 28° Julii 1621, which was about Two Months before the Earl of Midd. became Treasurer, he made an Agreement with the Officers of the Ordnance, for the buying their Extent and Interest in the Lands of Sir Roger Dalison and Sir Thomas Mounson, which they had by Assignment from His Majesty for a Debt of Thirteen Thousand and Sixty-two Pounds; and thereby his Lordship did agree, so soon as conveniently he might, to do his best Endeavour to procure from His Majesty a certain Assignment and Order for the Payment of the Sum of Eight Thousand Pounds, to the Use of the Servants and Creditors of the Office of Ordnance, before the last Day of November next, for and towards the Payment and Clearing of all such Sums of Money, as, by the Pay-books of the said Office, should appear to be due unto them, over and above the said Sum of Thirteen Thousand and Sixty-Two Pounds; and his Lordship was, before the same last of November, to pay them One Thousand and Sixty Two Pounds; and at the Annunciation 1623, Five Hundred Pounds; and after, Half-yearly, Five Hundred Pounds till the Thirteen Thousand and Sixty-two Pounds were paid: But his Lordship, before the prefixed last of November, becoming Lord Treasurer, did not procure any such Order, or Assignment, from His Majesty; but, by Warrant of the first-mentioned dormant Privy Seal of 6° Jac. did, in the first Michaelmas Term he became Treasurer, and in the Two Terms of Easter and Michaelmas following, being all within little more than a Year after he became Treasurer, pay to them Nine Thousand One Hundred and Thirty-one Pounds of Arrears due to the Office; and hath, at other Times since, paid to them other Sums, which make the former Payments Nineteen Thousand and Thirty-four Pounds, Eight Shillings, and Eleven Pence; whereof was paid, since the Beginning of this Parliament, Two Thousand Four Hundred and Eighty Pounds, Eleven Shillings, and Two Pence; and, touching the Payments which, by the aforesaid Agreement, his Lordship was to make unto them of his own Money, it appeareth, that, upon a Second Agreement, those Payments were discharged, and, in Lieu thereof, his Lordship assigned to them his Part in the Petty Farms of the Wines and Currants; they estimated to be worth, for the Two first Years One Thousand Pounds per Annum, and for Seven Years after Fourteen Hundred Pounds per Annum; howbeit, the first Two Years have yielded but Fourteen Hundred and odd Pounds: It also appeareth that, about the same Time when he made the said Agreement with the Officers, he bargained with Sir Thomas Munson for his Estate in Dalison's Lands, for which he agreed to give Three Thousand Pounds in Money, the making of Six Baronets, and some fit Suit from His Majesty when Sir Thomas could find it, which Three Thousand Pounds was duly paid by his Lordship. The Baronets were not procured; but, in Lieu thereof, his Lordship gave Way to a Suit, which Sir Thomas made to His Majesty, for the Benefit of compounding with the Copyholders of Wakesyld, for reducing their Fines to Certainty, which his Lordship did estimate at Two Thousand Pounds; and promised him further Recompence; yet Sir Thomas Mounson affirms he had neither Benefit thereby nor further Recompence.

"In this Bargain, nevertheless, there are some Things considerable for the Lord Treasurer, especially Two: First, that, by this Bargain, His Majesty is clearly freed of all future Demands from the Officers of the Ordnance, concerning the Debt of Thirteen Thousand and Sixty-two Pounds, owing by Dalison; which His Majesty, upon the assigning those Extents, had covenanted to satisfy, in case the Incumbrances should hinder them of Satisfaction; and this appeareth to be true: Secondly, some Intimation hath been, that this Bargain was no Bargain of Advantage; but of Loss, to the Lord Treasurer, and therefore not probable that he would have undertaken (fn. *) it but for His Majesty's Service and the Good of the Office; and touching this Point, it appears, by the Testimony of Sir Thomas Dalison, that, before the Troubles of his Father, the Lands and Leases, being of about Sixty Years to come, bought by the Lord Treasurer, were rented at Fifteen Hundred Pounds per Annum, or thereabouts; whereof the Lease Lands are about Three Hundred Pounds per Annum; and that, besides the Recompence given to the Officers of the Ordnance and Sir Thomas Mounson, there is allowed to him and his Mother, for clearing their Interests, Two Hundred Pounds per Annum for their Lives; but Sir Arthur Ingram offereth to lett the whole for Forty or Fifty Years, or any other reasonable Time, at Eleven Hundred Pounds by the Year; and it appears, by the Testimony of him and Mr. Mayle, that the Lands were incumbered with an Annuity of Two Hundred Pounds per Annum to Mrs. Bedingfyld, for Life, for which and the Arrears about Twelve Hundred Pounds hath been given, by Way of Composition; and with One Hundred and Forty Pounds to Mr. Smith for Life, for which and the Arrears hath been given, by Way of Composition, about the Value of Eight Hundred Pounds; and with an Assurance of Part to Sir Richard Smyth and Sir John Davy, for which is to be given Three Thousand Pounds; besides many other Incumbrances not yet brought in; but the Certainty thereof appears not, nor that any of them of any considerable Value are precedent to Sir Roger Dalison's becoming Officer."

L. Treasurer's Answer.

This Report being read; the Lord Treasurer remembred their Lordships of the Imputation laid on his Lordship by Sir Robert Pye, touching the Extent of Sir Roger Dallyson's Lands; and that therein he had desired Witnesses to be sworn and examined; and he hopes he hath fully satisfied their Lordships in that Cause. But, as for any other Matter, touching the Ordnances and Munitions, &c. they never came into his Thoughts as yet what Answer to make; wherefore he desired he might have a Copy thereof in Writing, with Liberty to examine his Witnesses; and he will answer the same fully in Writing.

He also desired, that his Actions may not be examined by Pieces, but totally and together; and then he doubted not, but that his Care touching the Store for Munitions, &c. will appear to be such that their Lordships will clear his Honour therein; and this being said, his Lordship departed out of the House, whilst the Matter reported was in Debate.

Mr. Attorney read the Report again; and it was Agreed, That the Lord President, who had shewed unto the House what Points or Heads were observable in the same concerning the Lord Treasurer, shall be added to the former Sub-committee touching the Munitions; and Mr. Attorney General is added to the Attendants.

Charge against the Lord Treasurer to be drawn up.

And they are to draw up the Heads of the Charge against the Lord Treasurer out of the Brief and the Examinations reported by the Committee this Morning.

To meet To-morrow, at Nine, in the Little Committee Chamber.

The Names of the Lords of this Sub-committee: videlicet,

L. Archbp. of Cant.
L. President.
L. Chamberlain.
L. Bp. of Co. et Lich.
L. Walden.
L. Russell.
L. Donvers.
L. Say.
Mr. Serjeant Crewe;
Mr. Attorney General,
Mr. Serjeant Crooke
To attend the Lords.,

Adjourn;

The Lord Archbishop of Cant. moved the House, That Sir Thomas Dallison might have a Copy of so much of this Report (fn. *) as concerns him.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem crastinum, videlicet, 13m instantis Aprilis, hora nona, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Footnotes

* Orig. Bas.
* Deest in Origin.
* Deest in Originali.
* Origin. which.