House of Lords Journal Volume 3
20 May 1628

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 3: 20 May 1628', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 3: 1620-1628 (1767-1830), pp. 803-807. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=30596 Date accessed: 23 November 2014.


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DIE Martis, videlicet, 20 die Maii,

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales, quorum nomina subscribuntur, præsentes fuerunt:

Archiepus. Cant.
Archiepus. Eborum.
Epus. London.
Epus. Dunelm.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Petriburgen.
Epus. Hereforden.
Epus. Wigorn.
Epus. Norwicen.
Epus. Roffen.
Epus. Co. et Lich.
Epus. Bangor.
Epus. Cicestren.
Epus. Oxon.
Epus. Cestren.
Epus. Meneven.
Epus. Lincoln.
Epus. Sarum.
Epus. Bath. et W.
Epus. Bristol.
Epus. Asaphen.
Epus. Gloucestren.
Epus. Carliol.
Epus. Exon.
Epus. Landaven.
Ds. Coventrey, Ds. Custos Mag. Sigilli.
Comes Marleborough, Magnus Thesaur. Angliæ.
Comes Maunchester, Præs. Concilii Domini Regis.
Dux Buckingham, Magnus Admirall. Angliæ.
Marchio Winton.
Comes Lindsey, Magnus Camer. Angliæ.
Comes Arundell et Surr. Comes Marescallus Angliæ.
Comes Pembroc, Senesc. Hospitii.
Comes Mountgomery, Camerar. Hospitii.
Comes Oxon.
Comes Northumbriæ.
Comes Salop.
Comes Kantii.
Comes Derbiæ.
Comes Wigon.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Cumbriæ.
Comes Sussex.
Comes Huntingdon.
Comes Bath.
Comes South'ton.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Hertford.
Comes Essex.
Comes Lincoln.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Suffolciæ.
Comes Dorsott.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Exon.
Comes Bridgewater.
Comes Leicestriæ.
Comes North'ton.
Comes Warwic.
Comes Devon.
Comes Cantabr.
Comes Carlile.
Comes Denbigh.
Comes Bristol.
Comes Angles.
Comes Holland.
Comes Clare.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Comes Westmerland.
Comes Banbury.
Comes Berk.
Comes Cleveland.
Comes Mulgrave.
Comes Danby.
Comes Tottnes.
Comes Monmouth.
Comes Norwich.
Comes Rivers.
Comes Sunderland.
Comes Newcastle.
Comes Dover.
Comes Petriburgh.
Comes Standford.
Vicecomes Mountague.
Vicecomes Purbeck.
Vicecomes Tunbridge.
Vicecomes Say et Seale.
Vicecomes Wimbleton.
Vicecomes Savage.
Vicecomes Conway.
Vicecomes Newarke.
Vicecomes Bayninge.
Vicecomes Campden.
Ds. Clifford.
Ds. Abergavenny.
Ds. Audley.
Ds. Percy.
Ds. Strange.
Ds. Delawarr.
Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Morley et M.
Ds. Dacres.
Ds. Dudley.
Ds. Stourton.
Ds. Darcy.
Ds. Vaux.
Ds. Windsore.
Ds. St. John de Bas.
Ds. Cromwell.
Ds. Evre.
Ds. Pagett.
Ds. North.
Ds. Compton.
Ds. Wootton.
Ds. Petre.
Ds. Spencer.
Ds. Stanhope de H.
Ds. Arundell.
Ds. Stanhope de Sh.
Ds. Noel.
Ds. Kymbolton.
Ds. Newnham.
Ds. Brooke.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Grey.
Ds. Deyncourt.
Ds. Ley.
Ds. Robarts.
Ds. Conway.
Ds. Vere.
Ds. Tregoze.
Ds. Carleton.
Ds. Tufton.
Ds. Craven.
Ds. Mountioy.
Ds. Fawconbridge.
Ds. Lovelace.
Ds. Pawlett.
Ds. Harvy.
Ds. Brudnell.
Ds. Maynard.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Weston.
Ds. Goringe.
Ds. Mohun.

Petition of Right.

THE House having considered of the Reasons given by the Commons against the Alterations propounded by their Lordships in their Petition, they agreed to insist only upon that of ["unlawful Oath"]; and, in Place thereof, to admit ["an Oath not warrantable by the Laws and Statutes of the Realm"].

Message sent to the Commons, by
Mr. Attorney General, and
Sir Edward Salter:

Message to the Commons, for Conference touching the Amendment of this Petition.

That the Lords desire a present Conference, with the Commons, in the Painted Chamber, by a Committee of both Houses, concerning the great Business conferred of Yesterday; wherein the Lords will declare somewhat of their Opinions debated of here, which they conceive may shorten the Debate thereof amongst them.

Answered:

Answer.

They will attend presently.

Agreed, That, at this Conference, the Lord Keeper shall deliver unto the Commons, "That the Lords desire their Consent to change the Words ["unlawful Oath"] into ["an Oath not warrantable by the Common Laws and Statutes of the Realm"]: That the Lords do wave all the other Alterations: That the Lords desire the Commons to take into their Consideration the Addition for the King, and to expedite the same, considering the Danger and Necessity of the Times, and to sit this Afternoon, as the Lords will also do."

The Commons being come, and the House adjourned ad Libitum, the Lords went to the Conference.

Conference reported.

Their Lordships being returned, and the House resumed; the Lord Keeper reported, "That his Lordship delivered to the Commons what he had in Charge from this House; who answered, They came but with Ears."

Confirmation of Letters Patent to the Earl of Bristol.

Hodie 1a et 2a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Confirmation of Letters Patents made by our late Sovereign Lord King James, to John Earl of Bristol, by the Name of John Digby, Knight.

Committed unto the same Committee unto whom the Bill for Restitution of Carewe Raleigh, is committed; and the Earls of Clare and Bolingbrooke are added unto the said Committee.

To meet presently.

Witnesses in Sir John Savage's Case.

Upon the Motion of the Earl of Cleveland, it is Ordered, The Parties here underwritten forthwith to appear before the Lords in Parliament, ad testificandum in causa Johannis Savage, Militis, so as the said Sir John doth bear and pay their Charges for their coming and attending herein:

Sir George Dauglos, Knight,
Sir William Sanders, Knight,
Sir William Whitmore, Knight,
William Ingram,
Samuel Persons,
Francis Thraile,
Penelope Fitzherbert,
William Moore,
Elianor Winter,
William Smith,
John Moore, Doctor of Paysick,
Nicholas Jordan, Esquire,
Toby Mathewe,
William Ingram,
John Holland,
Ejanor Holland,
William Tidner,
Abraham Burrell,
Daniell Burrell,
Nic. Hooker.

Respect of Homage.

The Committee of Privileges is to consider of an Order for Discharge of those Lords who have done their Homage to the King at the Coronation, from doing any further Homage.

And the Lord Chief Baron is to attend the said Committee.

Confirming Sutton's Hospital.

Hodie 2a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Establishing and Confirming of the Foundation of the Hospital of King James, founded in Charter-house, in the County of Midd. at the humble Petition, and only Costs and Charges, of Thomas Sutton, Esquire, and the Possessions thereof.

Committed unto the

L. Archbp. of Cant.
L. President.
E. Marshal.
E. of Huntingdon.
E. of Essex.
E. of Clare.
L. Bp. of Norwich.
L. Bp. of Rochester.
L. Bp. of Lincoln.
L. North.
L. Mountague.
L. Grey.
L. Fawconbridge.
L. Lovelace.
L. Maynard.
Mr. Justice Yelverton, To attend the Lords.
Mr. Serjeant Crewe,

To meet To-morrow Morning, in the Painted Chamber, by Eight of the Clock.

Confirmation of Letters Patent to the Earl of Bristol.

The Bill concerning the Earl of Bristol reported, and Ordered to be ingrossed.

Message from the Commons, by
Sir Thomas Edmonds and others:

Message from the H. C. that they will sit P. M.

That the Commons will sit this Afternoon, as was propounded unto them at the Conference.

Witnesses in Sir Francis Connisby's Cause.

Jurati in causa Francisci Connisby, Militis:

Thomas Mylls.

Thomas Woodward.

Elizabeth Mills.

Lower House of Convocation's Privilege.

Witney's Servant's Arrest.

According to the Order of the 16th of this May, John Dyos, the Under Sheriff of Hereford, was brought to the Bar, upon the Petition of the Lower House of Convocation, to answer his Contempt, for the Arrest of one of their Members Servants.

Ordered, Dyos to submit himself to the House of Convocation, and then to be discharged, paying his Fees.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in pomeridianum hujus dici, hora secunda, Dominis sic decernentibus.

DIE Martis, videlicet, 20 die Maii, in pomeridiano, Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales, quorum nomina subscribuntur, præsentes fuerunt:

Archiepus. Cant.
Archiepus. Eborum.
Epus. London.
Epus. Dunelm.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Petriburgen.
Epus. Hereforden.
Epus. Wigorn.
Epus. Norwicen.
Epus. Roffen.
Epus. Co. et Lich.
Epus. Bangor.
Epus. Cicestren.
Epus. Oxon.
Epus. Cestren.
Epus. Meneven.
Epus. Lincoln.
Epus. Sarum.
Epus. Bath. et W.
Epus. Bristol.
Epus. Asaphen.
Epus. Gloucestren.
Epus. Carliol.
Epus. Exon.
Epus. Landaven.
Ds. Coventrey, Ds. Custos Mag. Sigilli.
Comes Marleborough, Magnus Thesaur. Angliæ.
Comes Maunchester, Præs. Concilii Domini Regis.
Dux Buckingham, Mag. Admirall. Angliæ.
Marchio Winton.
Comes Lindsey, MagnusCamerar. Angliæ.
Comes Arundell et Surr. Comes Maresc. Angliæ.
Comes Pembroc, Senesc. Hospitii.
Comes Mountgomery, Camer. Hospitii.
Comes Oxon.
Comes Northumbriæ.
Comes Salop.
Comes Kantii.
Comes Derbiæ.
Comes Wigorn.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Cumbriæ.
Comes Sussex.
Comes Huntingdon.
Comes Bath.
Comes South'ton.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Hertford.
Comes Essex.
Comes Lincoln.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Exon.
Comes Bridgewater.
Comes Leicestriæ.
Comes North'ton.
Comes Warwic.
Comes Devon.
Comes Cantabr.
Comes Carlile.
Comes Denbigh.
Comes Bristol.
Comes Angles.
Comes Holland.
Comes Clare.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Comes Westmerland.
Comes Banbury.
Comes Berk.
Comes Cleveland.
Comes Mulgrave.
Comes Danby.
Comes Tottnes.
Comes Monmouth.
Comes Norwich.
Comes Rivers.
Comes Sunderland.
Comes Newcastle.
Comes Dover.
Comes Petriburgh.
Comes Standford.
Vicecomes Mountague.
Vicecomes Purbeck.
Vicecomes Tunbridge.
Vicecomes Say et Seale.
Vicecomes Wimbleton.
Vicecomes Savage.
Vicecomes Conway.
Vicecomes Newark.
Vicecomes Bayninge.
Vicecomes Campden.
Ds. Clifford.
Ds. Abergavenny.
Ds. Audley.
Ds. Percy.
Ds. Strange.
Ds. Delawarr.
Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Morley.
Ds. Dacres.
Ds. Dudley.
Ds. Stourton.
Ds. Darcy.
Ds. Vaux.
Ds. Windsor.
Ds. St. John de Basing.
Ds. Cromwell.
Ds. Evre.
Ds. Pagett.
Ds. North.
Ds. Compton.
Ds. Wootton.
Ds. Petre.
Ds. Spencer.
Ds. Stanhope de H.
Ds. Arundell.
Ds. Stanhope de Sh.
Ds. Noel.
Ds. Kymbolton.
Ds. Newnham.
Ds. Brooke.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Grey.
Ds. Deyncourt.
Ds. Ley.
Ds. Robarts.
Ds. Conway.
Ds. Vere.
Ds. Tregoze.
Ds. Carleton.
Ds. Tufton.
Ds. Craven.
Ds. Mountioy.
Ds. Fawconbridge.
Ds. Lovelace.
Ds. Pawlett.
Ds. Harvy.
Ds. Brudnell.
Ds. Maynard.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Weston.
Ds. Goringe.
Ds. Mohun.

Sir Robert Dyell and Kirk's Naturalization Bill.

HODIE 1a et 2a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Naturalizing of Sir Robert Dyell, Knight, one of the Gentlemen of His Majesty's Privy Chamber, and George Kirke, Esquire, one of the Grooms of His Majesty's Bed-chamber.

Committed unto the

E. of Dorsett.
E. of Clare.
L. Bp. of Norwich.
L. Bp. of Lincoln.
L. Weston.
L. Goring.

Sir Ch. Cæsar to attend the Lords.

To meet presently.

Who returned, and reported the Bill fit to pass, without any Amendment.

Jenor's Petition.

The Petition of Kenelme Jenor. read; shewing, "That his Son, Henry Jenor, was elected from Eaton College, in July 1626, into the Fifth Place in King's College, in Cambridge. And prayeth, that his Son may be admitted before the next Election, which will be in July next, or else his Place will be void."

This Petition is recommended to the Lord Bishop of Lincoln, that his Lordship would be pleased to expedite the same; and his Lordship did promise to expedite this Cause.

The Petition of Thomas Haynes read.

Grey released, on Payment of Costs.

Upon reading the Petition of Thomas Grey, which was formerly read 12 May; and the Warden of The Fleet then Ordered to certify the Lords for what Causes the said Grey is detained Prisoner; and, upon reading of Two Orders of the Star Chamber, and a Petition of William Digby and others; it is Ordered, The said Thomas Grey to pay the Costs and Fees, taxed and moderated, according to the former Order of 17 Maii 1626.

Message to the Commons, by
Mr. Attorney General, and
Sir Charles Cæsar:

Message to the H. C. to know if they will be ready this Afternoon for the Conference.

That the Lords have sat long this Afternoon, as was propounded, and desire to know whether they shall be ready to send unto them about Business; if not, they intend to adjourn.

Answered:

Answer.

They are now in Debate thereof, and hope to be ready instantly; if not, they will send Word.

Confirming Sutton's Hospital.

Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Confirmation of Sutton's Hospital, &c.

Put to the Question, and generally Assented unto, nemine dissentiente.

This Bill was first reported by the Lord President, one of the Committees thereof.

Message from the Commons, by

Sir Thomas Edmonds and others:

Message from the Commons for a Conference.

That the Commons are now ready for a free Conference with the Lords.

Answered:

Answer.

The Lords will meet them presently, in the Painted Chamber.

The House was adjourned, during Pleasure. The Lords returned from the Conference; and the House was resumed.

Conference reported, touching the Amendment of the Petition of Right.

The Lord Keeper reported, "That, at this Conference, Sir Edward Cooke spake to the Alteration of the Words ["unlawful Oath"]; and, besides Compliments, the Effect of his Speech was, That their House assented unto the same, that, in Lieu of "[unlawful Oath"], it should be ["an Oath not warrantable by the Common Laws and Statutes of this Realm."]"

His Lordship further reported, "That Mr. Noye spake touching the Addition propounded by the Lords; and the Effect of his Speech was, That they conceived the Addition was only propounded by their Lordships, but not concluded; and propounded to them to be debated. Then he read the Addition, "We humbly present, etc." That they had debated it, and called to Mind the Care of their House not to question or to dispute the King's Sovereign Power: That they presented to the King a Petition of Right; and if, in setting forth their Right, they should put a Saving, to leave entire the King's Sovereign Power, it was to add somewhat that was not in the Laws. In Magna Charta against Commitments, and in 25 E. III against Loans, there is no Saving. This might imply a Saving, where none was before, to the destroying of their Petition. That it is not the Use to express any new Thing, but to follow the old Manner of Saving in Parliaments in their Petitions. He observed, That the Saving hath been of ill Consequence, prout in the Confirmation of Magna Charta, Anno 25° E. I. A Saving of antient Aids and Prises bred an ill Exposition and Jealousy thereupon, that the King means not to observe Magna Charta; and therefore Commissions went forth, 27 E. I, to enquire of those who spread these Rumours.

"They called to Mind the Question that arose Auno 1° Jacobi, concerning Purveyances; and that then the Saving in Articulis super Chartas was objected against them, and that Business came to no good Issue. And they doubted that this Addition might be the Occacasion of making ill Expositions in future Times.

"That these Words ["of Sovereign Power"] were not Words used to be inserted in the Law, nor legal.

"That they proceed in a legal Course. Their Petition was their own Act. They petitioned only for their own Rights, and had no Ground, in respect thereof, to meddle with the King's Sovereignty; and therefore this Saving is not necessary. The Desire of their whole House was, That your Lordships would let this Petition pass, and to resolve hereon with all Expedition, that the great Business of the King might go on."

Amendment of the Petition debated.

This Report ended, it was propounded to the House, to consider of their Resolution herein. And it was also propounded by some to defer the Resolution thereof at this Time. But, for that the Commons stayed in the Painted Chamber, expecting some Answer from the Lords, the Lord Keeper (having first adjourned the House during Pleasure) and some other Lords went and told the Commons, that their Lordships are entering into Debate, and, when they are resolved, they will send them Word.

The House was resumed.

Motion for the Judges to give their Opinions touching it.

The Lords beginning to debate this Business of the Addition, the Earl of Bristol required, That the Opinion of the Judges herein, in Point of Law, might be first heard; and that this his Demand of their Opinions to be heard might be entered.

The House was put into a Committee, for the more free Debate concerning this Addition; and, after much Time spent therein, and nothing agreed on, resumed again.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem crastinum, videlicet, diem Mercurii 21m diem instantis Maii, hora 9a, Dominis sic decernentibus.