House of Commons Journal Volume 1
03 December 1621

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1802

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'House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 03 December 1621', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 1: 1547-1629 (1802), pp. 655-658. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=3163 Date accessed: 28 August 2014.


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Lunae, 3o Decembris

Several Orders.

BILL for Clothing, - Wednesday Afternoon, Exchequer Chamber.

Bill for wearing Cloth, - at the same Time and Place.

Sea-marks; - To-morrow in the Afternoon, Court of Wards.

Secret Inquisitions: - To-morrow, in the Exchequer Court.

Scandalous Ministers; and Ministers Leases : - Star-chamber. To-morrow.

Magdalen College.

Dr. Gooch moveth for a second Reading of Magdalen College Bill: But the House not thought yet to be full enough.

Wyse's Estate.

L. 1a. An Act to enable Rich. Wyse, Gentleman, to sell Lands, for Payment of his Debts, and Preferment of his Wife and younger Children.

Donwich Haven.

L. 2a. - Donwich. -

Sir Tho. Riddall: - Not to lay such great Impositions upon Coals, Corn, &c. -

16,000 l. per Annum already granted upon Coals. -

The Question Three times put, because the Voice doubtful; and then, upon the double Question, of Commitment, and ingrossing, rejected.

Privilege - Subpoenaing a Member.

A Petition from Mr. Napper, read.

Sir Ro. Phillippes : - That, by the Serving this Subpoena, the Privilege of this House broken. - Will be proved, that he knew Mr. Brereton was a Parliament-man; for had oft before told him so.

Agreed by the whole House, that the Serving a Subpoena upon a Member of the House, knowing him to be a Parliament-man, a Breach of the Privileges of this House.

Mr. Brereton ; - That he told him, before the Serving the Subpoena, that he was a Parliament-man.

Sir Sam. Sands: - That Mr. Brereton is to . . believed in this, as a Judge here; and not to suffer Napper to contest with him in this.

Napper called in to the Bar, kneeling, charged by Mr. Speaker for a Contempt, against the Privilege of this House, in serving a Subpoena upon him: - Who confesseth, his Man, in his Presence, and by his Direction, served a Subpoena upon him : Denieth, he knew he was a Parliament-man : And that Mr. Brereton desired to be sued.

Being withdrawn ;

Mr. Brereton: - That he never consented to be sued ; and that Napper, with his own Hands, served the Subpoena on him.

Mr. Brereton pardoneth him, for his Part.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - For his Punishment, to be committed Three Days to the Serjeant; and then to be dismissed, paying his Fees.

Serjeant Ashley: - He goeth to Church. - Moveth, to remit him.

Upon Question, to be committed for Three Days to the Serjeant; and then to be dismissed, paying his Costs to Mr. Brereton, and his due Fees to the Clerk and Serjeant.

Privilege.

Mr. Speaker moveth for Mr. Goldsmyth. - Appointed To-morrow, Nine of the Clock, to be heard.

Informers.

Sir Edw. Coke reporteth from the Conference with the Lords, concerning the new-written Bill of Informers. - That he informed the Lords, that the Amendments, sent down by the Lords, and assented to here, so many, as could not be put into the old ingrossed Bill, for Decency and Conveniency. That he read the Bill, and Mr. Attorney the old Bill, and Amendments; and found to agree. That he delivered the Lords the Bill; and the House there agreed to it; and there it is left with them, as passed both Houses.

Petition to the King - Religion, Prince's Marriage, &c.

Sir Edw. Coke reporteth from the Grand Committee, concerning the Petition to his Majesty, concerning Religion, and the End of a Session before Christmas. -

For the first, the Causes of the Papist Insolency : 2ly, The Remedies. - The King the true Beauclerk, that ever was in England.

The Petition being read over;

Sir Edw. Sackvyle: - Qui facet, consentire videtur. -

Had he as many Voices, as Fame is said to have, should not have One of them, this Clause of the Prince's Marriage. - That this will distate all the rest to the King. -

We have, all this Parliament, been chary, not to touch upon any Point of the King's Prerogative, much less the King's undoubted Prerogative, which is the Bestowing of his Son. - A Prince, young in Years ; old in Wisdom : Well trained in Religion. - Princes Marriages not drawn on by Beauty, &c. as private are. - He liker to convert, than to be converted. - Not to propose that, which we think will be denied. - This his Opinion, and now hath discharged his Conscience.

Sir James Perrott, contra. - 1. A Petition, to this Purpose, the last Parliament; at which Time a Petition drawn, and had been tendered to the King, but for the sudden Dissolution of the Parliament. The Mischief great, where Man and Wife of different Religion : Example of One at Acton ; where a Recusant Wife, fearing her Husband would train them up in Religion, killed One or Two of her Children, with her own Hands. Greater Dangers to be feared here. - The King's own Assurance, sithence this Parliament, not to match his Son, but to the Glory of God, and Good of Religion.

Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer: - Liketh the general Frame of the Petition : If the House give him a good Answer, will fortify it. - Desireth to know, whether ever from this House moved Counsels of War, Peace, Marriages, &c. - Well for Kings to advise with his People, but not for People to enter into it, without Direction from Prince. - To have it therefore strengthened with some Examples, and those of the better Times.

Mr. Wentworth: - The Remembrance of the Powder Treason must needs make us look to the present Danger by the staggering State of Religion. The King's Zeal to Religion great. He, the Head, will likewise like this Zeal in us, the Body. We only intermeddle petitionarily, not by any Act of Parliament. God directeth us to petition him for Matters concerning his Kingdom ; so may we do to his Lieutenant. -

Ob. That War, and the Prince's Marriage, too high for us. -

In H. V. Time, in Parliament, Chicheley moved the King to undertake the War against Fraunce. - - For the

Prince his Marriage : The King our Head. - The Body to have special Care, the Head continue sound. - This Petition, in Parliament, cannot be ill taken by the King.

25o Ed. III. 33 H. VIII. Statutes have a special Caution about the Prince his Wife. 25o H. VIII. a Statute, the which Act petitionary from the Parliament. - Hopeth well, the Prince will never be perverted by a Wife. - A Part of Rome, demolished, made to be built again by the same Prince, by the Marriage and Persuasion of a Romish Wife. -

To qualify this Petition. - To let him know, we desire no Answer in this Point: So to give it by way of our Advice only.

Sir Geor. Moore: - For resolving this Question, to consider, what we are: - Parliament-men, trusted by our Country, and Subjects to a great King. The Institution of Parliaments to redress Grievances, daily happening. The Decay of Religion the greatest Grievance. -

Their Insolency - the Dangers. - Cannot but deal plainly herein; and that must be, that the Hope of the Match with Spayne is a principal Cause. - To inform the King of this, fit for us, as Parliament-men. - No Good by Queen Marye's Match, but the Loss of Calice, her Death, and the Consumption of Treasure.

For the Matter of War; declared by the Lords, that the King now enforced to War: So as this put into us.

- To let the King know the Sore, and leave the Cure unto him : Which as far as we can go, as Subjects.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - That the King told both Houses of Parliament, we should speak freely to him, what they thought good, or hurtful, to the Commonwealth. - That we meddle not with the Propositions of the Marriage. - Doubteth, if sifted, there will neither Honour, Profit, nor Safety to be found in this Match. - If no Precedent already, Time now to make a Precedent. Reason requireth it. This concerneth us, as Men, and Christian Men; and concerneth both us, and our Posterity : Where therefore more fitly to be treated of, than here ? - Matter of State, the Preservation of State. - The Match with Spayne, in Queen Marye's Time, treated of in Parliament. The King of Spayne, before the Treaty now about, consulted with about 30 of his principal wise Men : - Was after brought to their Parliament. - Look to the End, which but to express our Duty to his Majesty.

Sir Henry Fane: - That the State of the Question, whether Matter of Marriage fit for the Conusance of this House. - Desireth Precedents, in this Kind, from Sir Edw. Coke; for hath heard from him, that no Cognisance of War, Marriage, till the King acquaint us with it. Desireth a Precedent for it: for then shall have his Vote : For desireth the Good of Religion.

Mr. Recorder : - Never so great Matters in Parliament, as in this Petition; yet knoweth nothing unwarrantable in this Proceeding. Though we forbear to speak in Matter of the King's Prerogative, yea, even where we think it over-strained; yet, in this humble Manner to petition the King, knoweth not, but may well stand (for we claim no Interest in determining any thing) especially the King telling us, no Hope of Peace; the Debate whereof hath brought on Consequences of looking into Religion.- - That fit for us to wish and pray against it, as he doth. - Better to have never stirred it, than now to desert it: For will make us Neutrals at least. - That nothing in the Petition, but fit for the House to do: Only petitioning the King, and laying all down at his Feet:

- Else a Deserting of God, and his Religion.

Mr. Brooke: - On Saturday last, when he went away, expected no Opposition against this Petition, but Matter of Form: Was glad of it; that Posterity might see, we saw the Storm, and desired to prevent it. - Confesseth, if we prescribed any thing to the King, concerning Marriage of the Prince, it were unfit. We only shew our humble Desire of his Marriage with a Protestant Prince. This no taking Conusance of a Cause, as if we would determine it. This Case of the Prince not like the Son of an ordinary Father. The Prince a publick Person, in whom we have all Interest. The Imputation by Floyde upon the Queen of Bohemia, the Lady Princess Palatine, here embraced, because she the King's Daughter. -

We primarily move not War here, but receive it from the King by the Lords. The Consequences of a defensive and offensive War therefore, of necessity, considerable and debateable here. - The Head of Gilead and Manasses. - The Prince his Marriage but a Consideration upon the State of Religion. - A general Conspiracy of Popish Princes against Religion.

Mr. Crew: - Mordecai her Words : - " Who knew whether she came thither to that End ? If she should refuse, God would otherwise deliver," &c. - The good Success -

The Papists now fall in Love with the Beast, grown an old Hag.

That the King telleth us, now no Way but War. That our Silence may make the King say hereafter, if evil Consequences, " You never told me of it." - Therefore to do it by Way of humble Petition. -

34o H. VIII. Six Articles, whereby Reading of the Gospel made Felony by Act of Parliament. - Phil. and Mary, - having Books of our Religion, Felony. -

God commandeth us to petition him : How can we then but petition the King for that, which every good Christian Man desireth, that our Prince may be married to One of our Religion ?

Confesseth, we are not to intermeddle with mere Prerogatives, and with dealing with that above our Reach; as in the Business of Floyde. -

War, Peace, calling and dissolving Parliaments, belong to the King; so, as a Father the Marriage of his Child : Yet there every Subject interessed. - We assume no Power, to conclude about War, or Marriage : To petition, we may. - Floyde's Case a mere Case of Right of Conusance. - For Precedent; good Laws oft made in ill King's Times; as in R. III. Time. Ed. II. the Roll, - That the Marriage of the King's Son not fit to be determined, but in Parliament. Right of Imposing debated in Parliament. Queen Eliz. Marriage treated of here, and she petitioned by this House for it. She graciously accepted it; because they neither prescribed Time, Place, nor Person ; but left it generally. So is our Petition, in this Point: - Is with Generally, and Duty. - Salomon, the wisest King that ever, withdrawn from true Religion to Idolatry. 8o Eliz. in the Statute at large, the Parliament gave the Queen a Subsidy, and One Fifteen ; where Thanks to the Queen, for her gracious Answer to the House, that she accepted her Motion for Marriage. Our Hearts pray to God, the Prince may marry in our true Religion: Why therefore may we not now petition his Lieutenant here ? If ever, Time now, to have Religion, not only in corde, but in fronte.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Melius est recurrere, quam male currere. - Many material Objections against this Petition : 1. The Father hath the Marriage of his Child; yea, against the King, where a Descent on the Mother's Part. a. Wars and Leagues arcana imperii. These indisputable Prerogatives of the King ; not such, as every Day handled in Westmynster Hall.- -

If would distaste the King, or Prince, would never speak in it: If this a Petition of Right, requiring an Answer, would never prefer it: But this a Petition of Grace, only by way of Advice. -

Good Precedent for Treating of War here, when originally moveth from the King. We heard from the Lords, that Janus Temple must be open, and the Voice of Bellona, and not of the Turtle, now only to be heard : That the King must either desert his Children, or take his Sword in Hand ; - and a standing War. Every one of our States in this Ship. We only now desire the King to fight with Spayne, and not with the Spaniards only; for we know he payeth them. - That the Lords told us, the King abused by Treaties, and Peace denied. We the Members, the King the Head : Not fit therefore for us to conceal any thing from our Head. -

That every Honest Man in England thinketh,the Hope of the Match with Spayne a principal Cause of the Insolency of the Papists: The Remedy then for this, to petition

the King, that the Prince may be married to one of our Religion. - -Certissime enim -

The last, a Desire of good Christians, to prevent the dangerous Hopes of ill-affected Subjects. -

Excellent for the King (we going now by Petition, and not by Bill) to make Use of. He may give Life to it, when he pleaseth ; or let it rest, without Answer, till he please to quicken it. Every Man's Heart here concurred, in these Things here desired, but the King not knowing our Hearts, as God, we must do it by Words.

King Ed. III. conferred with his Parliament concerning his Marriage; as patet per the Parliament Roll: But that moved from the King. -

42o Ed. III. n. 7. great Variance between a foreign King and Ed. III. besides Fraunce: He had Treaty with him, and was abused in it, as now: He communicated this to his Commons. - A Coward never wise : For dare not utter it. - The Commons desired him to take his Sword into his Hand; for a just War better than a dishonourable Peace: And yet he propounded no War, but the Consideration of the Treaty. -

Great Dispute heretofore, whether the Subsidies to move only from the Commons; and whether the Commons might meddle with Matter of State, and the Kingdom. - The Precedent of Indemnity, " les Seignieurs et Commons." - That the Commons may consult of the State of the Kingdom and of the Remedies thereof, - 9 H. IV. his Time; who a potent King, and in the Height of his Kingdom. 4 H. V. a League, to be made between England and the King of the Romans, was enacted by Parliament. - In all Kings Times hitherto this allowed. The Parliament called ad consultandum de arduis regni, nos, statum et defensionem regni, et statum et defensionem ecclesiae Angliae. - This never so useful, as now. -

Ob. That this Writ directed only to the Lords.

Resp. - "Parliamentum tenere decrevimus:" - Whereof we a Part. - Ardua, for the Greatness; urgent, for the Necessity; concerning the Church, and Commonwealth.

- Six Armies : - All dangerous to Religion. - The Presenting this Petition standeth with Duty, and Necessity. Mr. Noye: - Doubteth of some Things. - The Petition - Religion, a Marriage, and War. - For the Two first concurreth, for Matter and Manner. - Their Increase, and Insolencies of Papists, most properly lie in our Conusance: Fit to give Notice to the King of it. For War ; the Effects doubtful: The Charge may be great. War Physick. - Loth to let Blood, without a Cause. - Doubteth, whether sufficient Matter laid down in the Petition, to require War against the King of Spayne. - Not to make a Breach against the Law of Nations. - A League between Spayne, and us; Wars between the Emperor, and the King's Son : Aid given by the King of Spayne on the one, and by us on the other. - Whether this stand not with the League. - Would consent to the Petition, if any Wrong by the King of Spayne to any of our Possessions; whereof Complaints heretofore in Parliament: as 7o Jac. - Difference, between a Prince invading our Possessions, or detaining our Possessions; and aiding an Ally.

- Desireth Satisfaction herein.

Mr. Solicitor; - Not fit to answer now Mr. Noy his Doubt, - Will answer it with Silence: For proper only to Kings to determine what the Breach of a League, and when to take Knowledge of the Breach of it. We only offer this to the King's Judgment. - Is satisfied with the Matter of the Petition, drawn to the General by Direction from the King: The Particulars follow, as Consequents. - Moveth, for the Form of the Petition, that, through the King only to determine of Peace, and War, and Marriage, yet we may, with Duty, petition his Majesty, as we may do to God. -

Two Scruples in our Petition, which desireth may be explained; viz. In precise Terms to acknowledge, we take not upon us to determine: 2ly, Sithence the Petition of divers Natures, the last, for Laws at home; therefore, to those, which require at present Answer, to desire it ; to the rest, to leave it to the King's Majesty's Time, and good Pleasure in all Respects,

Mr. Speaker : - That no Prayer, to the first Part, of any Answer; so as, for that, no Petition, but a mere Remonstrance, to his Majesty, of the Causes, Dangers, and Remedies: For the latter Part, viz. the domestique, for Laws, and a Pardon; there is a Petition, which requireth an Answer: But not so for the other. The Word is, " represent:" 1. Causes: 2. Dangerous Effects: 3ly. The Remedies.

Sir Edw. Gyles reneweth Mr. Solicitor's last Motion;

- and to have it done, either in the Petition, or by Word of Mouth.

Sir Tho. Wentworth: - To have the Remonstrance and Petition go dividedly. - So Sir Ro. Phillippes: - And to have Two or Three go together presently into the Committee Chamber, and divide it.

Sir Chr. Hildyard: - To re-commit it.

Sir H. Poole, Concordat with Sir Ro. Phillippes and Mr. Solicitor.

Mr. Glanvyle: - Not now to dispute, what we may do in treating of War, Peace, Marriages, &c. neither have we now done in it: But yet not to have any Words inserted, which may have any Privilege or Power of ours.

Sir D. Digges, as Mr. Solicitor and Sir Ro. Phillippes.

- To have some go up, and add some Words, to avoid Interpretation.

Mr. Sherfeild : - To add, that, sithence his Majesty hath declared to us, by the Lords, that he must either have War, or abandon his Children. -

Sir Francis Fane moveth, that they, which drew the Petition before, shall presently go up into the Committee Chamber, to alter the Petition, as hath been moved.

Statutes.

The Bill for Continuance and Repeal of Statutes. - To-morrow, in the House, at Two of the Clock.

Remonstrance and petitions to the King.

The said Committee went up, and brought down again the Petition, with an Addition in Paper: Which read,

Upon Question, this Remonstrance, and Petition; with the addition in Writing, and the former Petition annexed, to be presented to his Majesty, - without One Negative.

Sir Nath. Rich; - To send To-morrow Morning. -

Twelve sufficient: - Some of the Privy Council, with some other Courtiers.

Mr. Chancellor Exchequer, Sir Geor. Goring, Sir M. Fleetewood, Sir Geor. Chaworth, Lord Compton, Sir H. Mildmay, Lord St. John, Sir Geor. Manners, Mr. Murray, Sir Edw. Villyers, Mr. Chancellor Duchy, Sir John Brooke.

Sir Nath. Rich; - To spare all those, which drew the Petition.

Sir Edw. Coke : - That those, which go, may present this from the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses of this House; without any Power to confer, or speak about it, or delivering any Speech, except, to desire his Majesty to hear it read, and the former Petition.

Mr. Alford: - That One may be appointed to read it, if the King shall require to have it read.

Mr. Recorder: - To move. That his Majesty will be pleased to hear it read.

Mr. Pymme: - That the Speaker should be here early To-morrow Morning, that, when the Remonstrance, and Petition, with the Instruction, fair written, it may be read in the House.

Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring his Majesty's Answer to what he shall please to give Answer to.

Moved, those, which drew the Petition, to examine it again, after it is fair written.

Mr. Alford: - To have it read in the House.

Mr. Speaker to be here again at Four of the Clock, for the Hearing of the Remonstrance and Petitions read after they are new-written,

Time of Meeting.

ORDERED, Mr. Speaker to be here To-morrow Morning, by Eight of the Clock that the Petition may be read in the House.