House of Lords Journal Volume 7
21 December 1644

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History of Parliament Trust

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 7: 21 December 1644', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 7: 1644 (1767-1830), pp. 108-111. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33187 Date accessed: 30 October 2014.


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Contents

DIE Sabbati, 21 die Decembris.
Answer from the H. C. Earl of Thanet's Ordinance. Ordinance to make the Precinct of Newport Parochial. Pay for Colonel Fiennes's Regiment. Answer delivered to the Lords who are come from the King. They desire to present somewhat further to the Houses. Message from the H. C. with an Ordinance to exclude the Members of both Houses from holding any Office, Civil or Military. Answer. Scots Commissioners and the Committee to meet, to receive somewhat further from the Lords who are come from the King. Message from the H. C. for that Purpose. Answer. Message to the H. C. for the Meeting to be P. M.; and about receiving the Swedish Minister. Archbishop of Cant's Attainder. Demergue, Surgeon to Ld. Willoughby's Regiment, freed from an Arrest. Answer from the H. C. Ordinance to clear the E. of Thanett from Delinquency. Adjourn. Post meridiem. Report of the Paper from the Lords who are come from the King, for an Answer to the King's Desire about treating by Commissioners. Answer of the Committees and the Scots Commissioners to it. Reply of the Lords from the King. Message to the H. C. for the Committee to meet again about it. Message from thence, that the Lords may be desired to return to the King with an Answer. Answer from the H. C. Answer to them. Petition of the Lord Generals Officers, for their Arrears. Message from the H. C. for the Committees to meet about the Answer to the Lords from the King. Report of the Answer. Message to the H. C. to concur in it. Message from thence, to the same Effect. Answer to the Paper delivered by the Lords who are come from the King. Delivered to them. Adjourn. Footnotes

DIE Sabbati, 21 die Decembris.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Marshall.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker this Day.

L. General.
L. Admiral.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Kent.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Northumb.
Comes Nottingham.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Denbigh.
Ds. North.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Bruce.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Dacre.
Ds. Willoughby.

Answer from the H. C.

Mr. Doctor Heath, &c. return this Answer from the House of Commons:

That they have appointed their Committee to meet with the Committee of Lords, for Reception of the Commissioner from the Queen of Sweden, and the Regents thereof, at the Time appointed.

Earl of Thanet's Ordinance.

Next, the Ordinance for taking off the Delinquency of the Earl of Thanett, was read Thrice, and Agreed to.

(Here enter it.)

Ordinance to make the Precinct of Newport Parochial.

An Ordinance concerning the making of the Borough and Precinct of [ (fn. *) Newport, in] the Isle of Wight, Parochial, was read Twice, and committed to these Lords following, to consider of the same, and report the same to this House:

L. Admiral.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Ds. North.

Any Three, to meet on Monday next, in the Afternoon, at Three a Clock; and Mr. Serjeant Whitfield to attend the Committee.

Pay for Colonel Fiennes's Regiment.

Ordered, That Colonel John Fiennes shall have the Remainder of the Fortnight's Pay, assigned unto him by Ordinance for his Regiment of Horse, forthwith paid and satisfied unto him.

Answer delivered to the Lords who are come from the King.

The Earl of Northumberland reported, "That the Committee of both Houses met Yesterday with the Commissioners of Scotland, and delivered to the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of South'ton the Answer to the King's Message; which having been read by the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of South'ton, they said they had some Things to deliver by Command from the King; which he delivered in Writing, videlicet,

They desire to present somewhat further to the Houses.

"My Lords and Gentlemen,

"We shall obey your Commands, in presenting this to His Majesty; and withall desire we may present you what we have in Command from Him. We observed, when we waited on you last, your Lordships desired to receive all in Writing; in Conformity to it, if your Lordships please to assign how it shall be received To-morrow Morning, we shall accordingly prepare the best we can, to give you Satisfaction."

Upon this, their Lordships withdrew, and the Committee took this into Consideration; and finding that their Powers from the Houses was but to deliver the Answer to the Two Lords, called them in again, and told them, "That the Committee of both Houses hath considered their Orders, and likewise their Lordships Desires; and do find, that they have only for the present Power to deliver that Answer unto His Majesty's Message. If their Lordships have any further Commands from the King, they know the Way of Addresses unto the Houses."

Message from the H. C. with an Ordinance to exclude the Members of both Houses from holding any Office, Civil or Military.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Pierrepont, &c.

That he was commanded by the House of Commons to deliver to their Lordships an Ordinance of Parliament, "That the Members of either House shall not have or execute Offices or Commands, Military or Civil, during this War, conserred or granted by Parliament; and they conceive it a Business so much concerning the Armies, they desire their Lordships would presently take it into Consideration."And further he was commanded to acquaint their Lordships, "That the House of Commons hath appointed a Committee, to consider of the Necessities of the several Members of both Houses; and to present what Allowance they think fit to be made for their present Support and Maintenance."

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will take their Message into Consideration, and return an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Scots Commissioners and the Committee to meet, to receive somewhat further from the Lords who are come from the King.

The Speaker acquainted this House, "That the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of South'ton sent to him, to desire him to acquaint this House, That they have something further in Command from the King, to deliver to the Parliament and the Commissioners of Scotland."

Hereupon this House Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons, to acquaint them with this Information, and desire that their Committee of Twenty-eight may meet the Committee of Fourteen Lords this Afternoon, at Three of the Clock, to receive what the Two Lords have to deliver further from the King; and that the Scotts Commissioners may have Notice of it, and Desire to meet accordingly.

Message from the H. C. for that Purpose.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Holles, &c.

To let their Lordships know, that their Speaker informed their House, "That the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of South'ton were with him, to let him know, that they had something in Command from the King, to deliver further to both Houses of Parliament and the Commissioners of Scotland."Therefore the House of Commons desire their Lordships, that the Committee formerly appointed may presently meet, to receive what the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of Southampton have to deliver to the Houses; and, after the Delivery thereof, to know of them if they have * any Thing further in Charge from His Majesty, to deliver unto the Houses; and that if they have, that this Committee hath Power presently to receive it; and likewise to send Intimation to the Scottish Commissioners, to desire them presently to meet with the Committee for this Purpose; and to desire that their Lordships will sit this Afternoon, at Two of the Clock.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this (fn. *) House will send an Answer to this Message with Messengers of their own.

Message to the H. C. for the Meeting to be P. M.;

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Rich and Mr. Page:

To let them know, that the Lords do agree to all that was last sent concerning the Two Lords sent from the King, saving to the Point of Time; and that the Lords have appointed Three of the Clock this Afternoon for that Purpose, and the House to sit at Four this Afternoon.

and about receiving the Swedish Minister.

2. To let them know, the Committee of Lords are ready to receive the Swedish Commissioner presently, in the Painted Chamber; and to desire that the Committee of their House may meet accordingly.

Archbishop of Cant's Attainder.

Ordered, That the Business concerning the Archbishop of Canterbury shall be taken into Consideration on Monday Morning next, the First Business.

Demergue, Surgeon to Ld. Willoughby's Regiment, freed from an Arrest.

Upon reading the Petition of Isaacke Demergue, Chirurgeon to the Lord Willoughbye's Regiment of Horse, and hath Commission from him to serve the Parliament; yet he is arrested:

Hereupon this House Ordered, That [ (fn. *) the Petitioner] shall be released from his present Restraint.

Answer from the H. C.

Sir Rob't Rich and Mr. Page return with this Answer from the House of Commons:

That their Committee will meet presently, to give Reception to the Swedish Commissioner; and they have appointed their Committee to meet with the Lords Committee, at Three a Clock; and that their House will sit at Four of the Clock this Afternoon, as is desired.

The Lords went to give Reception to the Swedish Commissioner; and the House was adjourned till 4ta post meridiem.

"An Ordinance for Discharge of the Delinquency of the Earl of Thanett.

Ordinance to clear the E. of Thanett from Delinquency.

"Whereas John Earl of Thanett hath been adjudged a Delinquent within several Ordinances of Parliament, and his Estate seized and sequestered in several Counties, and he hath since come in before the First Day of March last, and submitted, and humbly desired the Benefit of the Declaration of Parliament, whereunto he was admitted; and hath thereupon agreed to pay for his Discharge the Sum of Nine Thousand Pounds, whereof Six Thousand Pounds is paid in Hand, and Security given to the Treasurers of Goldsmiths Hall for the Payment of the Residue by Three Payments, as by the Order of the House of Commons, dated 19 Octobris, 1644, is directed: It is therefore Ordered, Declared, and Ordained, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, and the said Lords and Commons do hereby Order, Declare, and Ordain, That the said Sum of Nine Thousand Pounds, so paid and secured as aforesaid, shall be, and is accepted as, a full Fine and Composition, from the said Earl of Thannett, for his Delinquency; and that, in Consideration thereof, the said Earl shall be, and is hereby, clearly acquitted and discharged of his Delinquency, and of all Forfeitures, Seizures, and Sequestrations, of or upon any Part of his Estate, by reason thereof; and that the said Earl of Thannett, by the Authority aforesaid, is hereby to be restored, and shall receive and have the Benefit of his Rents due at the Feast of St. Michaell th' Archangell last past, and the Profits then due; and all Committees, Sequestrators, and Collectors, are to take Notice hereof, and conform themselves hereunto; any former Direction, Declaration, or Ordinance, notwithstanding."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 4a post meridiem.

Post meridiem.

Ds. Grey of Warke, Speaker.

L. General.
L. Admiral.
Comes Northumb.
Comes Kent.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Suffolke.
Comes Denbigh.
Ds. North.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Bruce.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Dacre.

Report of the Paper from the Lords who are come from the King, for an Answer to the King's Desire about treating by Commissioners.

The Earl of Northumberland reported, "That the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of South'ton delivered to the Select Committee of both Houses and the Commissioners of Scotland a Paper, by Command from the King;" which was read, as followeth:

"My Lords and Gentlemen,

"We are commanded by His Majesty to let you know, that it is His Desire, that, before our going from hence, we might receive a Resolution to that Part of His Majesty's Desire, expressed in his Message in the 13th of December, 1644, concerning your treating with Him by Persons to be appointed on either Part, that so, according to what shall be agreed upon, we may have Opportunity to offer what else we have in Charge from His Majesty, in order to the procuring a happy Peace. But yet His Majesty earnestly desires, that the Way proposed by Him may be agreed unto, as that which He conceives to be the most likely Means speedily to draw on a happy and well-grounded Peace; whereas otherwise the Distance of that Place which His Majesty is most likely to reside in (as also many other respects) will extremely lengthen the Treaty, and defer the attaining to that happy End, a blessed Peace (which His Majesty above all other Things so earnestly desires), and consequently be a Cause of the further Effusion of His Subjects Blood (besides the many other Losses to the Kingdom); which His Majesty is so desirous to prevent, that, as He will readily do what else shall be requisite on His Part, so He will most willingly give such Powers to the Persons employed by Him, as there shall be little or no Loss of Time upon that Occasion; the compassionate Sense His Majesty hath of the Miseries and Calamities the Kingdom doth suffer by this unnatural War prevailing so far upon Him, that He is as earnest in seeking out the Remedy as if He Himself were the only Sufferer.

21 Decembris, 1644.

"J. Richmond & Lenox.

"T. South'ton."

Answer of the Committees and the Scots Commissioners to it.

"Upon the receiving this Paper, the Committee, with the Concurrence of the Commissioners of Scotland, returned this Answer:

"We shall presently report this Paper delivered in by your Lordships; but we are directed by the Houses of Parliament to know of your Lordships, if you have any Thing further in Charge from His Majesty to deliver unto the Houses; if your Lordships have, this Committee hath Power and Order now to receive it."

Reply of the Lords from the King.

"The Reply of the Duke of Richmond and Earl of South'ton was this:

"We conceive that we may have something further in Charge from His Majesty to deliver to your Lordships, &c. after you shall have declared your Resolution concerning the managing of the Treaty betwixt His Majesty and your Lordships by Persons on either Part; but have nothing else at this Time to offer."

Message to the H. C. for the Committee to meet again about it.

Upon this, a Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Serjeant Whitfield and Dr. Heath:

To let them know, the Lords think fit to refer the Consideration of the Two Papers delivered by the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of South'ton to the Committee which was appointed by both Houses to receive what those Lords were to deliver from His Majesty, that they may meet with the Scotch Commissioners, and prepare an Answer to those Papers which were now delivered to the Committee of both Houses, and make their Report to the Houses; and the Committee to meet presently, in the Painted Chamber.

Message from thence, that the Lords may be desired to return to the King with an Answer.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Peter Wentworth Knight, &c.

To desire their Lordships (fn. *) Concurrence in this Vote; videlicet,

"That the Select Committee may presently meet, and, in the Name of both Houses, desire that their Lordships will forthwith repair to His Majesty with the Answer already given; and that the Scotts Commissioners may be (fn. †) conferred with herein."

Answer from the H. C.

Mr. Serjeant Whitfield and Dr. Heath return with this Answer from the House of Commons:

That they will send an Answer to the Message by Messengers of their own.

Answer to them.

The Answer returned to the Messengers of the House of Commons was:

That their Lordships will take their Message into speedy Consideration, and will send an Answer by Messengers of their own (fn. ‡) .

Petition of the Lord Generals Officers, for their Arrears.

A Petition of the Colonel and Captains of the Lord General's Infantry was read; desiring, "That some Course may be settled, for the Maintenance of the Army, and paying their Arrears."

Message from the H. C. for the Committees to meet about the Answer to the Lords from the King.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Denzell Holles Esquire, &c.

That they agree to their Lordships Desire, for meeting of the Committee presently, their Committee being now ready.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure; and the Committee of Lords went to meet with the Committee of the House of Commons and the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland.

Report of the Answer.

The House being resumed, the Earl of Northumb. reported the Draught of the Answer to be given to the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of South'ton, to their Papers delivered in this Day: Which being read, this House approved; and Ordered, To desire the Concurrence of the House of Commons therein.

Message to the H. C. to concur in it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Serjeant Whitfield and Dr. Heath:

To communicate this Paper unto the House of Commons, and desire their Concurrence therein; and to let them know, if they cannot give an Answer to it presently, that they would give an Answer on Monday Morning.

Message from thence, to the same Effect.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Denzell Holles Esquire, &c.

To desire their Lordships Concurrence in an Answer to be given to the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of South'ton to their Two Papers; and desire that the Committee may meet presently, and deliver it, if their Lordships concur.

The Answer was read, as followeth:

Answer to the Paper delivered by the Lords who are come from the King.

"My Lords,

"The Desire expressed in the last Papers given in by your Lordships is a Part of His Majesty's Message of the 13th of December, and concerns the Manner of Treaty, which (according to the Answer already given) will require some Time to be resolved upon; and therefore it is the Desire of both Houses of Parliament, and of the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland, that your Lordships would be pleased speedily to make your Repair unto His Majesty with the Answer already given to His Majesty's Message brought by your Lordships."

Delivered to them.

The Lords Committees went to meet with the Committee of the House of Commons, and the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland, to deliver this Answer to the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of South'ton.

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 9a, Monday Morning next.

Footnotes

* Deest in Originali.
* Deest in Originali.
* Origin. he Petition.
* Deest in Originali.
Origin. confer.
After this, in the Original, follows a Message to the H. C. about Committees meeting with the Scots Commissioners, concerning an Answer to be given to the Lords from the King; with the following Marginal Note, "Re-called, not sent."