DIE Sabbati, 11 die Januarii.
PRAYERS, by Mr. Marshall.
Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Witnesses concerning Mr. Thayne, at Haberdashers Hall.
Ordered, That Rob't Powell, Wm. Cooke, Eliz.
Holmes, and Anne Lane, shall be summoned to attend
this House, to take their Oath at this Bar, concerning the
Examinations given in at Haberdashers Hall, concerning
Mr. Thayne, Gentleman Usher of this House.
Petit, De Liques, and Faucault, Petition, for a Protection whilst they and employed in weighing some Ships with their new-invented Engines.
Upon reading the Petition of Dominique Petit, Peter
De Liques, and Claudius Fawcault; shewing, "That
whereas, by an Ordinance of both Houses of Parliament, the Petitioners have framed some Engines, and
set them upon Two Ships belonging to them, the
one of Three Hundred Tuns Burthen called The Box
Tree, the other of One Hundred and Twenty Tuns
named The Pearle Hoy, to be employed at Sea, for
Benefit of the State, in which Service, and maintaining Four Ships, and waiting a great while for a fair
Opportunity, they have disbursed and expended about
Three Thousand Pounds; and being indebted to
some Persons that are very urgent upon them at this
Time, when they want Money, and are Strangers in
this Kingdom, they are like to be exposed to much
Distress, and their said Service to be hindered.
"Therefore the Petitioners humble Suit, that
their Lordships will be pleased to give some
Order or Directions to the Right Honourable
the Lord Admiral, that he may protect their
Persons and Ships from all Arrests and Molestations, till the 20th of July next, that the
said Engines may be put in Execution, the
Season for the same not being fit till Summertime."
Ordered, That the Petitioners shall have the Protection
of this House, as is desired, in regard of the Public Business they are about; and the Lord Admiral is hereby
appointed to see that they have (fn. *) and enjoy it.
Heads for a further Conference, concerning the Ordinance for excluding Members from holding Offices.
The Earl of Manchester reported, "That the Committee hath considered of what Answer is fit to be returned to the Conference (fn. †) lately had with the House of
Commons, concerning the Ordinance touching the
exempting of the Members of the Houses from having Office, Civil or Military."
The Paper being read; it is Ordered, To have a Conference with the House of Commons, and communicate
the same to them.
Message to the H. C. for it.
And accordingly a Message was sent to the House of
Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:
To desire a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, concerning this Business.
Message from thence; with Ordinances;
A Message was brought from the House of Commons,
by Mr. Whitlocke Esquire, &c.
To desire their Lordships Concurrence in these Ordinances:
1. Concerning paying of One Thousand Pounds to
Mr. Estwicke, &c. (Here enter.)
2. An Ordinance concerning the Gaol at Yorke.
(Here enter it.)
3. An Ordinance concerning the regulating the billeting of Soldiers.
and that the Business of the Army, Navy, Church, and Treaty, shall be first taken into Consideration.
4. To acquaint their Lordships with a Vote made by
the House of Commons, "That the Armies and the
Treaties, the Church and the Navy, shall be taken
into Consideration peremptorily the First Business;
and that no other Business shall intervene, or be admitted, whatsoever, until these Businesses be settled."
The Answer returned was:
That their Lordships agree to the Ordinance for paying One Thousand Pounds to Mr. Estwicke, and to the
Ordinance concerning the Gaol of Yorke; as to the rest
of the Particulars of this (fn. *) Message, their Lordships
will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.
Answer from the H. C.
Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page return with this Answer from the House of Commons:
That they will give a present Conference, in the Painted
Chamber, as is desired.
Order to pay Mr. Estwick 1000 l. borrowed for the Ld. General's Army.
"Whereas the Honourable Committee of Lords and
Commons sitting at Habberdashers Hall, London, and
the Committee of the Militia of the City of London,
did, upon the 13th of October, 1643, borrow of Stephen
Estwicke the Sum of One Thousand Pounds, upon an
emergent Occasion, towards the Supply of the pressing Necessities of the Lord General's Army, when the
Fifty Thousand Pounds lent the Parliament by the
City of London came not in Time enough to supply the
said Necessities; and whereas the said Mr. Estwicke,
at the Time of his lending the said One Thousand
Pounds, was promised, not only by the said Committee
of Lords and Commons, but also by the said Committee of the Militia, to be re-paid the said One Thousand Pounds out of the First Monies that should come
in of the said Fifty Thousand Pounds then in Arrear;
and, to the End the Arrears of the said Fifty Thousand
Pounds might be paid, and Mr. Estwicke satisfied, the
Committee of the Militia did, upon the 9th of October,
1644, present a Paper to the said Committee of Lords
and Commons, under Eleven of their Hands, to put
the Ordinance of Parliament in Execution, to compel the several Companies of the said City to pay in
their Arrears, to the End the said Mr. Estwick might
be satisfied, which the said Committee of Lords and
Commons have done accordingly; and whereas it
was the Intention of the said Committee of Lords and
Commons, and the Committee of the Militia, to repay Mr. Estwick the said One Thousand Pounds immediately after the borrowing thereof: It is therefore
Ordained, by the Lords and Commons assembled in
Parliament, That the Treasurers of Money and Plate,
at Guildhall, London, do forthwith pay unto the said
Stephen Estwick the Sum of One Thousand Pounds,
out of the said Companies Money lately received, and
to be received by the said Treasurers by Order of the
said Committee of Lords and Commons; which Money, so paid by the said Treasurers, is to be accounted
Part of the Fifteen Thousand Pounds lent the Parliament by the said City, about the 11th of August, 1643."
Ordinance concerning the Gaol at York.
"It is this Day Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That The Back GateHouse of St. Maryes in Yorke, with the Rooms over it
and adjacent unto it, and also the Room called Garners
within the said Mannor Yard, together with the said
Mannor Yard, be appointed for keeping the County
Gaol in, till the Castle be restored to its former Use;
and that it be referred to the Lord Fairefax, Governor, to appoint the said Places accordingly; and that
Sir William Strickland acquaint the Governor with this
Order: And it is further Ordered, That the Commissioners of Parliament residing at Yorke do allow
Money for making the Gaol strong and sufficient,
and Irons for the Prisoners, out of the Assessments of
Heads for the Conference concerning the Lords rejecting the Ordinance for excluding Members of both Houses from holding Offices, Civil and Military.
"The Lords have considered the Paper delivered by
the House of Commons, at a Conference, the Ninth
Day of this Month, in Answer to another Paper delivered by the Lords, at a like Conference, Two Days
before, wherein were contained the Reasons and
Grounds of their Lordships dissenting from them in
the Ordinance for exempting the Members of either
House from any Office, Civil or Martial; and the
Lords do find, that the House of Commons have in
their Paper wholly mistaken the State of the Question;
for the Lords do admit it for Truth, what is said by
them, "That, in a Bill or Ordinance, when either
House makes Alteration or Amendment, the Bill or
Ordinance itself is returned, together with such Alteration or Amendment; and that otherwise Mistakes
cannot be avoided, nor the Way of transacting Bills
and Ordinances in both Houses be certain and regular:" But their Lordships do not understand how
this Rule hath been broken by them, or that it is at
all applicable to the present Case, for that they had
not then any Thought of making Alterations or Amendments in that Ordinance; and cannot but wonder it
should be so far mistaken, since they did (as they conceived) offer strong and satisfactory Reasons against
the main Body of the Ordinance so penned, it being
such as no Amendment or Alteration could in their
Opinions make it fit for them to pass, except such
as should alter it to be quite another Thing; so as
it could not be expected their Lordships should,
together with those Reasons, send down the Ordinance,
because the Ordinance and those Reasons could not
stand together: Therefore, whereas it is further expressed, by Way of Complaint, that no particular
Amendments or Alterations were delivered, that is
very true, for their Lordships did not then intend it;
but, by the Way, it is observable, that the House of
Commons do, by their own Saying, clear the Lords
of the Breach of the Rule laid down by them in the
Beginning; for if the Lords delivered no Amendments or Alterations, they could not be liable to any
Exception for not sending down the Ordinance; and
for what is said besides, that, if the Reasons be admitted, yet no Ordinance would thereby pass, it is acknowledged; for in Truth those Reasons were for that
End given, that the Ordinance so penned should not
pass: But that which their Lordships are tenderly affected with is, that other Expression, "That the Paper
sent down by them is a Breach of Privilege, and contrary to the constant Course of Parliaments." Their
Lordships cannot here be silent, knowing how forward the House of Peers hath been (which all the
World will witness with them) to afford a yielding
Compliance to almost all the Desires of the House
of Commons, and how careful not to break any of
their Privileges, even to the Prejudice of some of their
own: Therefore they desire the House of Commons
will reciprocally express some Tenderness of them, and
not to entertain such an Opinion, especially in a Particular of this Nature, wherein their Lordships are
strongly persuaded that the House of Commons have
formerly delivered a clean contrary Sense; for the
Lords well remember, that when they had rejected an
Ordinance sent up by the House of Commons, concerning an Oath of Secrecy to be taken by the Committee of the Two Kingdoms, and not imparted their
Reasons for so doing before unto that House, the
House of Commons desired a Conference upon it; and
there it was delivered, by a worthy Member, Mr.
Rowse, "That a direct Denial seemed to cut off
further Consideration and Conference concerning the
Matter proposed, especially where a Negative is returned before any Reasons proposed or heard, and
which, being heard, might have altered the Opinion
of either House; which (as was then said) the Commons had the more Reason to resent, because the
Lords, having voted Reasons in their own House,
would not vouchsafe to communicate them to the
Commons." This was the Opinion then of the House
of Commons, who found Fault, because the Lords had
thrown out that Ordinance without communicating
their Reasons before. The Lords have now avoided
that which the House of Commons conceived to be
an Inconvenience, their Lordships being desirous to
preserve the good Understanding which ought to be between the Two Houses; and therefore would not cast
out this Ordinance so penned, before they had imparted the Grounds and Reasons of their so doing unto
the House of Commons, that so they might either satisfy them with their Reasons, or be satisfied by them
with better, and both come to be of One Mind,
which they desired should be in this and in all Things
else, and conceived this to be the ready Way to it, not
suspecting it possible to be disliked by the House of
Commons, especially having been so lately moved unto
it by the House of Commons themselves: Yet this is
now said to be a Breach of Privilege of Parliament,
and contrary to the constant Course of Parliaments.
The Lords are very sorry to find their Actions to be
so misconstrued; and do assure you, they had no such
Intention. The Privileges of Parliament being sacred
unto them, they are bound by Protestation and Covenant to maintain them, which they have done with
Hazard of their Lives and Loss of their Fortunes.
They wished with all their Hearts some Course were
taken, by the Wisdom of both Houses, to search out
and to ascertain these Privileges, that neither House
might fail in the Observation of their own and of each
other's Privileges; so to avoid all Inconveniencies of
this Nature between the Houses for the Time to