DIE Sabbati, 8 die Februarii.
PRAYERS, by Dr. Wincupp.
Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.
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L. Admiral.
Comes Rutland.
L. General.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Kent.
Comes Bolingbrooke. |
Ds. North.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Dacres.
Ds. Bruce. |
Mr. Harborne to be Minister of Chevering.
Ordered, That Mr. Harborne shall supply the Cure,
and officiate at the Parish, of Chevering, in the County
of Kent, until the further Directions of both Houses of
Parliament.
The Speaker acquainted the House, "That he hath
received a Letter and a Packet from the Commissioners
of Uxbridge;" which were read, as followeth:
Letter from the Commissioners for the Treaty, with the Proceedings on the Propositions concerning the Militia.
"To the Right Honourable the Speaker of the
House of Peers pro Tempore.
"My Lord,
"By the several Papers now sent unto you, you will
see the Result of Three Days upon the Militia, and
the Return of our Expectation of that full Answer
which was promised us. We did not trouble you
before upon this Subject, because what we had from
them was but promissory, till Yesterday towards the
Evening, when they gave us the long Paper; and
afterwards we continued in Debate till One of the
Clock in the Morning, which is the Cause the Account of it comes to you so late. Thus, my Lord,
we rest
"Your Lordship's Humble and faithful Servants,
Uxbridge, Febr. 7, 1644.
"A. Northumberland.
Salisbury.
Pembrooke & M.
B. Denbigh."
Next, the Papers in the Packet was read, giving an
Account of the Proceedings of the Treaty at Uxbridge.
(Here enter them.)
Answer from the H. C.
Dr. Aylett and Dr. Heath returned this Answer from
the House of Commons to the Message sent Yesterday:
That they will return an Answer by Messengers of
their own.
Lady Delawar's Privilege, concerning a Debt sued against her at Haberdashers Hall.
Upon reading the Petition of Isabella Baroness of
Ellawarr, Dowager; shewing,
"That she hath received Summons to appear at Habberdashers Hall, concerning a Debt, for which her
Lands were engaged, and forfeited by the Default,
who, upon the Marriage of the Petitioner's Son, had
undertaken, and ought to have seen it discharged:
Therefore the Petitioner humbly prayeth, that she
may be allowed the Privileges of a Peer's Wife; and
that her Appearance and present Business be transferred from Habberdashers Hall to the Hearing of this
House, as hath been formerly allowed to Persons of
her Quality."
Hereupon it is Ordered by this House, That all
Proceeding concerning this Business shall be stopt; and
that the Committee at Habberdashers Hall
(fn. *) do certify to
this House, why the Petitioner was summoned before
them at Habberdashers Hall, and why she ought not
to have the Privilege of a Peer's Wife, to have Business heard in this House, before the Peers.
Ordinance for Tonnage and Poundage.
Next, the House was adjourned during Pleasure into
a Committee, to take into Consideration the Ordinance
for Tonnage and Poundage.
The House being resumed, the said Ordinance for
Tonnage and Poundage was read the Third (fn. †) Time, and
agreed to with the Additions.
Message to the H. C. with it.
A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by
Sir Edward Leech and Dr. Heath:
To let them know, that this House agrees to the Ordinance concerning Tonnage and Poundage, with the
Additions, to which their Lordships do desire their Concurrence.
Order for Mr. Elliot's Ordinance to be in full Force;
"Whereas (fn. †) on an Ordinance of both Houses of Parliament, in Consideration of the Losses sustained by
John Elliott Esquire, for his adhering to the Parliament and otherwise, dated the 10th of June, 1644,
there have been Doubts raised, whether the said
Ordinance be valid; for that it is not published in
Print, according to a Clause therein: Be it therefore
Ordained, this present Day, by the Lords and
assembled in Parliament, That the said John Elliott
have as much Benefit and Privilege by the said Ordinance unprinted, as he should have had had it been
published in Print the very Day of the Date thereof;
any Thing in the said Ordinance to the contrary notwithstanding."
To be sent to the H. C.
Ordered, That this Ordinance be sent down to the
House of Commons by the next Message, and desire
their Concurrence therein; and to recommend it to them,
in regard Sir John Elliott, the Father of the said Mr.
John Elliott, was a Person that had merited and suffered.
much for the Public Good of this Kingdom.
Paper from the Parliament's Commissioners, with their Demands concerning the Militia.
"4 Febr. 1644.
"We desire that, by Act of Parliament, the Subjects
of the Kingdom of England may be appointed to be
armed, trained, and disciplined, in such Manner as
both Houses shall think fit.
"The like for the Kingdom of Scotland, in such
Manner as the Estates of Parliament there
shall think fit.
"That an Act of Parliament be passed, for the settling of the Admiralty and Forces at Sea; and for
the raising of such Monies, for the Maintenance of the
said Forces and of the Navy, as both Houses of Parliament shall think fit.
"The like for the Kingdom of Scotland, in such
Manner as the Estates of Parliament there
shall think fit.
"An Act for the settling of all Forces by Sea and
Land in Commissioners, to be nominated by both
Houses of Parliament, of Persons of known Integrity,
and such as both Kingdoms may confide in, for their
Faithfulness to Religion, and Peace of the Kingdoms,
of the
House of Peers, and of the
House of Commons, who shall be removed or altered
from Time to Time, as both Houses shall think fit;
and when any shall die, others to be nominated in
their Places by the said Houses; which Commissioners
shall have Power,
"1. To suppress any Forces raised without Authority of both Houses of Parliament, or, in
the Intervals of Parliaments, without Consent
of the said Commissioners, to the Disturbance
of the Public Peace of the Kingdoms; and to
suppress any Foreign Forces that shall invade
this Kingdom; and that it shall be High Treason in any who shall levy any Force without
such Authority or Consent, to the Disturbance
of the Public Peace of the Kingdoms; any
Commission under the Great Seal, or other
Warrant, to the contrary notwithstanding; and
they to be incapable of any Pardon from His
Majesty, and their Estates to be disposed of as
both Houses of Parliament shall think fit.
"2. To preserve the Peace now to be settled, and
to prevent all Disturbances of the Public Peace
that may arise by Occasion of the late Troubles.
"So for the Kingdom of Scotland.
"3. To have Power to send Part of themselves,
so as they exceed not a Third Part, or be not
under the Number of to reside in the Kingdom of Scotland, to assist and
vote as single Persons, with the Commissioners
of Scotland, in those Matters wherein the
Kingdom of Scotland is only concerned.
"So for the Kingdom of Scotland.
"4. That the Commissioners of both Kingdoms
may meet as a joint Committee, as they shall
see Cause, or send Part of themselves as aforesaid, to do as followeth:
"1. To preserve the Peace betwixt the Kingdoms and the King, and every One of
them.
"2. To prevent the Violation of the Articles
of Peace as aforesaid, or any Troubles
arising in the Kingdoms by Breach of the
said Articles; and to hear and determine
all Differences that may occasion the
same, according to the Treaty; and to
do further according as they shall respectively receive Instructions from both
Houses of Parliament in England, or the
Estates of Parliament in Scotland; and,
in the Intervals of Parliament, from the
Commissioners for the Preservation of the
Public Peace.
"3. To raise and join the Forces of both
Kingdoms, to resist all Foreign Invasion,
and to suppress any Forces raised within
any of the Kingdoms, to the Disturbance
of the Public Peace of the Kingdoms,
by any Authority under the Great Seal,
or other Warrant whatsoever, without
Consent of both Houses of Parliament in
England, and the Estates of the Parliament in Scotland, or the said Commissioners of that Kingdom whereof they
are Subjects; and that, in those Cases of
joint Concernment to both Kingdoms,
the Commissioners to be directed to be
there all, or such Part as aforesaid, to
act and direct as joint Commissioners of
both Kingdoms.
"We desire that the Militia of the City of London
may be in the Ordering and Government of the Lord
Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons, in Common Council assembled, or such as they shall from Time to
Time appoint, whereof the Lord Mayor and Sheriffs
for the Time being to be Three; and that the Militia
of the Parishes without London and the Liberties,
within the Weekly Bills of Mortality, may be under
the Command of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and
Commons, in Common Council of the said City, to be
ordered in such Manner as shall be agreed on and
appointed by both Houses of Parliament.
"We desire that The Tower of London may be in the
Government of the City of London; and the Chief
Officer and Governor thereof, from Time to Time,
be nominated and removeable by the Common
Council.
"We desire that the Citizens or Forces of London
shall not be drawn out of the City, into any other
Parts of the Kingdom, without their own Consent;
and that the drawing of their Forces into other Parts
of the Kingdom, in these distracted Times, may not be
drawn into Example for the future.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary."
The King's Commissioners desire to know how long the Militia is to be settled for, on the new Establishment.
"4 Febr. 1644.
"We conceive the Propositions delivered by your
Lordships concerning the Militia import very great
Alterations in the main Foundation of the Frame of
Government of this Kingdom, taking by express
Words, or by necessary Consequence, the whole Military and Civil Power out of the Crown, without any
Limitation in Time, or Reparation proposed; therefore we desire to know for what Term you intend
the Militia shall be settled, in such Manner as may be
a reasonable and full Security (which we are ready
and desirous to give) to preserve the Peace now to
be settled, and to prevent all Disturbance of the
Public Peace that may arise by Occasion of the late
Troubles; for the better doing whereof, we are ready,
by Conference, to satisfy your Lordships in any Particulars.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners will give a Conference about it.
"4 Febr. 1644.
"Our Paper given to your Lordships concerning the
Militia doth not contain the Alterations mentioned in
your Lordships Answer; but desire that which by
the Wisdom of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms is
adjudged necessary at this Time, for the Security of
His Majesty's Kingdoms, and Preservation of the
Peace now to be settled: And, until your Lordships
shall declare an Assent unto the Matter therein expressed, we conceive it will not be seasonable to give
any Answer unto the Time; and we are ready to
confer with your Lordships upon what shall be offered
by you to our Paper concerning the Militia formerly
delivered.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary."
Whether the King may except against any Person to be intrusted with the Army or Fleet.
"4 Febr. 1644.
"We desire to know who the Commissioners shall be,
in whose Hands the Forces by Sea and Land shall be
intrusted; and whether you intend His Majesty shall
be obliged to consent to such Persons; or whether
He may except against them, and name others in their
Places, of known Affection to Religion and Peace.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nich. Oudart."
The Persons to be named by the respective Parliaments of each Kingdom.
"4 Febr. 1644.
"The Commissioners, in whose Hands the Forces by
Sea and Land shall be intrusted, are to be nominated
for England by both Houses of the Parliament of
England, and for Scotland by the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, as is expressed in our Paper formerly delivered to your Lordships concerning the
Militia.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary."
Whether the London Militia is to be independent.
"4 Febr. 1644.
"We desire to know, whether your Lordships intend
that the Militia of the City of London shall be independent, and not subordinate to those Commissioners
in whose Hands the Forces by Sea and Land shall be
intrusted.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."
To be determined by both Houses.
"4 Febr. 1644.
"It appears, by the Proposition concerning the Militia of the City of London, that the same is to be ordered in such Manner as shall be agreed on and appointed by both Houses of Parliament.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary."
King's Commissioners desire Time to consider of these Propositions, as they take the whole Military and Civil Power from the Crown.
"4 Febr. 1644.
"We are of Opinion, that the Propositions in your
Lordships Paper contain the Alterations mentioned in
the Paper we lately delivered to your Lordships; and
take, by express Words, or necessary Consequence,
the whole Military and Civil Power out of the Crown;
which Alterations we are ready to make appear in
Debate: And the Alterations being so great, we have
Reason to desire to know the Limitation of Time, the
Consideration of which makes the Proposition more
or less reasonable.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nich. Oudart."
King's Commissioners desire to know the Names of the Persons to be intrusted with the Militia;
"4 Febr. 1644.
"We desire a full Answer to our Paper concerning
the Persons to be intrusted with the Militia, it being
very necessary to know the Persons before Consent
can be given to the Matter; and whether His Majesty may except against any such Persons, and nominate others in their Rooms, against whom there can
be no just Exception.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."
and an Answer whether the London Militia are to be independent of the Commanders by Sea and Land.
"4 Febr. 1644.
"We desire an Answer to our Paper concerning the
Militia of the City of London; whether the same shall
be subordinate to the Commissioners in whose Hands
the Forces by Sea and Land are to be intrusted.
Your Lordships answer, That the same is to be ordered in such Manner as shall be agreed on and appointed by both Houses of Parliament (which yet doth
not appear by the Propositions), being no Answer to
that Question.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."
King's Commissioners will give an Answer about the Militia.
"5 Febr. 1644.
"Having with great Diligence perused your Lordships Paper concerning the Militia, and being very
desirous to come to as speedy a Conclusion in that Argument as we can; we will be ready To-morrow to
give your Lordships our full Answer, which, we are
confident, will give your Lordships Satisfaction concerning the Matter of the Militia of this Kingdom.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."
Propositions from the King's Commissioners, for settling the Militia.
"6 Febr. 1644.
"To suppress any Forces that may be raised to the
Disturbance of the Public Peace of the Kingdom, or
that shall invade this Kingdom, and to preserve the
Peace now to be settled, and to prevent all Disturbances of the Public Peace that may arise by Occasion of the late Troubles; and that His Majesty
and all His People may be secured from the Jealousies
and Apprehensions they may have of Danger; we do
consent, that all the Forces of the Kingdom, both by
Sea and Land, shall be put into the Hands of Persons
of known Faithfulness to the Religion and Peace of
the Kingdom, in such Manner, and for such Time; as
is hereafter mentioned.
"That the Number of these Persons be Twenty, or,
if that be not accepted by your Lordships, such greater
or lesser Number as shall be agreed upon between
us; and that His Majesty may name Half the Persons
to be so intrusted, and the Two Houses the other
Half.
"That such Forts and Towns in which Garrisons
have been before these Troubles, and such other as
shall be agreed upon between us to be necessary for
a Time to be kept as Garrisons, shall be intrusted
likewise to Persons to be chosen by the Commissioners,
or the major Part of them, and to be subordinate to
the said Commissioners, and to receive Orders from
them, and no others; and all other Places, which
have been fortified since the Beginning of these
Troubles, shall be left as they were before; and the
Fortifications and Works slighted and demolished; and
all Forces with all possible Expedition to be disbanded,
that the Kingdom may be eased of that intolerable
Burthen.
"That an Act of Parliament shall be passed, for the
raising of such Monies, for the Maintenance of the
Navy and Sea Forces, as His Majesty and both Houses
shall think fit.
"That, when any of the said Commissioners shall die
who was nominated by His Majesty, His Majesty shall
name another; and when any shall die of those named
by the Two Houses, another shall be chosen by them,
and, in the Intervals of Parliament, by the major Part
of the said Commissioners named by the Two Houses;
and neither the one or the other to be removed but
by the joint Consent of His Majesty and both Houses;
except it shall be desired by your Lordships, that His
Majesty and the Two Houses respectively may remove
the respective Persons named by them as often as they
shall see Occasion; to which, if it shall be insisted on,
we shall consent.
"These Commissioners, or the major Part of them,
or such other Number of them as shall be agreed
upon; shall have Power, by Act of Parliament, to suppress any Forces, sitting a Parliament, without the
joint Consent of His Majesty and both Houses of Parliament, or, in the Intervals of Parliament, without
Consent of the said Commissioners, or the major Part
of them, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of
the Kingdom; and to suppress any Forces that shall
invade the Kingdom; and that it shall be High Treason in any who shall levy any Forces, without such
Authority or Consent, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace; that they shall have like Power to preserve
the Peace now to be settled, and to prevent all Disturbances of the Public Peace, that may arise by Occasion of the late Troubles; and if any Forces shall
be brought into the Kingdom without the joint Consent of the King and the Two Houses of Parliament,
it shall be lawful for any Four of the said Commissioners to levy Forces, for the suppressing, resisting,
and destroying, the said Forces so brought in
"We are content that this Power to such Persons
shall continue for the Space of Three Years; which
we doubt not, by the Blessing of God, will be abundantly sufficient to secure all Persons from their
Doubts and Fears, and in which Time such a mutual
Confidence may be got between His Majesty and all
His People, that the Peace will be firm and lasting.
"That the Commissioners, before their Entrance
upon the said Trust, shall take an Oath for the due
Execution of the said Commission; and that, after the
Expiration of the said Term of Three Years from the
Time of the issuing the said Commission, they shall
not presume to continue any Execution of the said
Authority; and it shall be High Treason in any of
them to execute the said Authority after the Expiration of the said Three Years; and all the Commanders in Chief of the Garrisons, Forts, and His Majesty's Ships, shall likewise take an Oath for the due
Execution of their Trust; that the Commissioners
shall have Power to prevent the Violation of the Articles of Peace, or any Troubles arising in the Kingdom by Breach of the said Articles, and to hear and
determine all Differences that may occasion the same.
"We shall be willing that any just Privileges and
Immunities be granted by His Majesty to the City of
London, as being the chief City of this Kingdom, and
the Place His Majesty desires to honour with His most
usual and most constant Residence; but we conceive
it too envious a Thing, and may prove very prejudicial to the Happiness of that great City, to distinguish it, in a Matter of so high Importance as the Business of the Militia, from the Authority that the
whole Kingdom is to submit to.
"If your Lordships shall not consent to the Election
of Persons in that Manner as we have proposed, Half
by His Majesty, and the other Half by the Two
Houses; we do then propose to your Lordships, That
the said Persons, who shall have the said Powers in
Manner and Form abovementioned, may be named by
mutual Consent, upon Debate betwixt us; in which,
Consideration may be taken for the Fitness or Unfitness of those who shall be named; and in Case that
any of them who shall be thus agreed upon shall die
within the said Term of Three Years, the Survivors,
or the major Part of them, shall nominate and choose
another in his Place who shall be deceased: This
Way we should have most desired; but, in regard the
Consideration of Persons may take up a long Time in
Debate, which neither the Time allotted for the
Treaty nor the present Distractions will permit, we
do propose the former as the most expedite and certain Way, but leave the Election to your Lordships;
and whatsoever shall be found deficient in the settling
this according to the present Agreement, or shall be
thought fit to be added to it upon any Inconveniences
or Defects that shall be hereafter discovered, the
same shall be mended or supplied, in such Manner as
shall be thought reasonable, by the joint Consent of
His Majesty and the Two Houses of Parliament.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners desire an Answer to their Paper about it, and that of Scotland.
"6 Febr. 1644.
"Your Lordships Paper, which we have received so
late at the End of the Third Day appointed to treat
upon the Militia, on which we expected a satisfactory
Answer to our Demands concerning it, is very far
differing from what we have proposed, and unsatisfactory to our just and necessary Desires, for securing
of the Peace of the Kingdoms, and wherein we cannot but observe that the Kingdom of Scotland is
wholly omitted: We do therefore insist upon our
Paper formerly delivered concerning the Militia, and
desire your Lordships full and clear Answer; being
ready, by Conference, to remove all Objections which
may be made to the contrary.
"By Command of the Commissioners for
the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"John Thurloe Secretary.
John Cheislei Secretary."
King's Commissioners will give an Answer about Scotland, at the next Meeting.
"6 Februarii, 1644.
"We shall be ready, against the Time that the Militia is again in Order to be treated upon, to give your
Lordships an Answer to your Demands concerning
the Militia of the Kingdom of Scotland; the which
for the present we have not had Time to do, having
wholly spent these Three Days in the perfecting the
Paper delivered to your Lordships this Day, and the
Debate in Preparation thereof.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
King's Commissioners will give a Conference, to shew the Reasonableness of their Propositions concerning the Militia.
"6 Febr. 1644.
"We conceive the Paper delivered by us to your
Lordships may justly satisfy your Lordships for securing the Peace of this Kingdom against all Forces
that may any Ways endanger it at Home or from
Abroad, and for securing the Performance of all
Things that shall be agreed on in this Treaty; and
we are ready, by Conference, to make the Reasonableness thereof appear, and to receive any Reason from your Lordships to the contrary; and as
touching Scotland, we hope your Lordships will be
satisfied by the last Paper delivered to you.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners desire an Answer about the Militia of both Kingdoms jointly.
"6 Febr. 1644.
"In our last Paper, we insisted upon our former Demands for the Militia, and offered by Conference to
satisfy your Lordships of the Reasonableness of them,
if any Doubts remained with you to the contrary;
which we are still ready to do, they being the proper
Subject of this Part of the Treaty: And whereas your
Lordships have, in your Paper, referred what concerns the Kingdom of Scotland unto another Time,
and seem to intend it a several Answer; both Kingdoms being united in the same Cause, and under the
same Danger, and mutually providing for the joint
Safety and Security of both and of each other, our
Propositions are jointly made by both, and are inconsistent with a divided Answer.
"By Command of the Commissioners for the
Parliaments of both Kingdoms."
"Exam'r.
King's Commissioners desire a Conference about it.
"6 Febr. 1644.
"Whereas your Lordships have offered, in your last
Paper, to satisfy us by Conference of the Reasonableness of your Demands, if any Doubts remain with us
to the contrary; we desire to receive Satisfaction, by
Conference, that it is reasonable for us to grant the
Nomination of the Persons by the Two Houses only,
and that the Time ought not to be limited.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Dani'l Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners desire a full Answer to their Paper, in Writing.
"6 Februarii, 1644.
"As we have given to your Lordships our Propositions
for the Militia of both Kingdoms in Writing, so do
we again desire your Lordships full and clear Answer
to them both in Writing; and we are ready to answer
any Doubts you shall make upon them, in Order as
we delivered them, and as they do relate to both Kingdoms; but we cannot treat upon your Lordships Answer, which divides them.
"By Command of the Commissioners for the
Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisly."