DIE Sabbati, 15 die Februarii.
PRAYERS, by Mr. Rayner.
Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.
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L. General.
L. Admiral.
Comes Kent.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Suffolke.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
L. Viscount Say & Seale. |
Ds. North.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Bruce. |
Committee to draw up Reasons concerning the Ordinance for putting the Army under the Command of Sir T. Fairfax, &c.
Ordered, That these Lords following are appointed
to consider of the Reasons of the Conference Yesterday
with the House of Commons, and what is fit to be given
by Way of Answer to the House of Commons:
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L. General.
L. Admiral.
Comes Manchester. |
Comes Stamford.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Ds. Howard. |
To meet presently.
Message from the H. C. with a Letter to the French King;
A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by John Lisle Esquire;
To desire their Lordships Concurrence in these Particulars:
1. A Letter to be sent to the French King.
(Here enter it.)
Agreed to.
for Mr. Stroud to be of the Assembly;
2. That Mr. Stroude may be added, to be a Member
of the Assembly, in the Place of Mr. White, lately deceased. (Here enter it.)
Agreed to.
and to expedite Two Ordinances.
3. To desire Expedition in the Ordinance formerly
brought up, concerning the swearing of the Sheriff of
the County of Lancashire.
4. To desire Expedition in the Ordinance for the new
Model of the Army, it being a Thing which concerns
the Safety of the Kingdom.
The Answer returned was:
Answer.
That their Lordships do agree in the Letter to the
French King, and adding Mr. Stroude to be of the Assembly; to the Ordinance for Lancashire, and the Ordinance concerning the new Model of the Army, their
Lordships will send an Answer by Messengers of their
own.
Packet from the Commissioners for the Treaty.
Next, the Speaker acquainted the House with a
Packet received from the Commissioners at Uxbridge;
and the inclosed Letters and Papers were read, as followeth. (Here enter them.)
Ordered, That it be referred to the Committee of
both Kingdoms, to consider of the King's Letter to the
Commissioners at Uxbridge, concerning enlarging the
Time of the Treaty, aud whether the Three Sabbathdays are to be exclusive or inclusive the Twenty Days.
Reasons to be offered at a Conference, concerning the Ordinance for putting the Army under the Command of Sir T. Fairfax.
The Earl of Manchester reported from the Committee,
the Reasons to be offered to the House of Commons, in
Answer to the Conference with the House of Commons
Yesterday, concerning the Ordinance touching the new
Model of the Army. (Here enter them.)
And also was reported an Amendment to the Addition of the Proviso for disabling the Officers that refuse
to take the Covenant. And, after Consideration, it was
Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees to
these Reasons as now reported, and also to the Penalty
in the Proviso now read.
Ordered, That these Reasons and the Alteration in
the Proviso shall be communicated to the House of
Commons, at a Conference.
Message to the H. C. for a further Conference about it.
A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by
Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:
To desire a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, touching the late Conference concerning the Ordinance of the new Model of the Army.
Ordered, That the Lord General hath Leave, at the
next Conference, to speak somewhat concerning the Expression in the Letter Yesterday received from the House
of Commons, touching Dulbeir.
Proctor to attend, for exhibiting Bills in the Exchequer, intituled, "To Ld. Cottington and Sir E. Hyde."
Upon Information to this House, "That there have
(fn. *) been divers Bills of late exhibited into the Court of
Exchequer, intituled, "To Lord Cottington Lord
Treasurer, and Sir Edward Hyde Chancellor of the
Exchequer," which Titles and Places have been confirmed contrary to the Votes of both Houses;" and
upon the Perusal of One Bill assigned, so intituled, subscribed by one Richard Proctor, a Lawyer: It is Ordered, That the said Ric'd Proctor shall attend this
House on Monday Morning next, and answer the same.
And it is further Ordered, That the Officers of the
Exchequer do, on Monday next, bring in to this House
such Informations as have been exhibited into that Court
within Two Years, that so this House may see what
Titles have been used in other Informations.
Answer from the H. C.
Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page return with this Answer from the House [ (fn. *) of Commons]:
That they will give a present Conference, as is desired.
The Speaker is to read this at the Conference, as followeth:
Reasons to be offered to the H. C. at a Conference, concerning the Ordinance for putting the Army under the Command of Sir T. Fairfax, and for new modeling it.
"My Lords have considered of your Reasons, which
you brought up at the Conference Yesterday: And,
in the First Place, they desire that we may call to
Mind the Grounds upon which both Houses did enjoin the taking of this Solemn League and Covenant
throughout the whole Kingdom: They have therefore commanded me to read unto you that Part of
the Ordinance which mentions it; and they think it
most worthy of our great Care and Consideration,
that we do nothing that may carry any Semblance to
the World, as if we had not the same Esteem and
Regard of the Solemn League and Covenant as formerly we had.
"In Answer to your Reasons, they have commanded
me to let you know, that they do acknowledge that the
Addition, which the House of Commons have made to
the Proviso offered by them, (fn. *) doth give more Strength
unto the Ordinance than before it had; and they
account it of the happy Privileges of Parliament,
that each House may make what supplemental Additions they think fit (whilst the Bills or Ordinances
are in their Houses), in order to that End for which
the Bill or Ordinance is framed; and therefore they,
finding this Ordinance defective through the Want
of a penal Clause, did make an Addition thereof in
their last Proviso.
"They do not conceive this Penalty to be of an
unusual Nature, it being the same with that which
is imposed upon the City of London, and all Officers
and Pleaders in the Courts of Westm.
"Read the Ordinance, Foll. 88 and 160.
"And, in their Opinion, the Parliament does not
fully discharge their Duty, in Pursuance of their own
Ends, if they shall make Laws or Ordinances without Penalties; for the penal Part of every Law or
Ordinance is that which gives Life, otherwise the Law
in itself will grow a dead and insignificant Letter.
"They conceive that, where Obedience is required
in reference to a Religious Duty, there prejudicial
Considerations are not so to take Place, as to occasion
any Alteration in the Rule, or Dispensation in the
Observation, of what is enjoined; but they look upon
this Conjuncture of Time the most proper Season to
press the Covenant in the Manner set down in this
Proviso which they now tender to you; for we are
now modelizing an Army, which will have the greatest Power and Strength in their Hands; and therefore it is necessary to take Care, that such as bear Office
in this Army should be such as do agree unto that
Form of Church Government, which (fn. †) the Parliament holds forth to the World to be their Desire;
otherwise the Danger will be great, to have our chiefest
Military Power in their Hands, who shall refuse to
be united in that Solemn League and Covenant
which both Kingdoms have sworn inviolably to observe and maintain. My Lords do therefore insist
upon the Proviso formerly delivered to you, with these
Alterations and Additions.
"The Amendments:
"After the Word ["displaced"], leave out the Words
["and made uncapable to have any Charge and
Command within the said Army"]; and, instead thereof, add these Words, ["and shall not be admitted to
any Office or Command in this said Army, until they
shall have taken the said Solemn League [ (fn. ‡) and Covenant] as aforesaid, and such their Conformity certified and approved of by both Houses of Parliament"]."
The Letter and Papers received this Day from the
Commissioners at Uxbridge.
Letter from the Commissioners, for the Treaty about the Propositions concerning Religion, and the Time limited for the Treaty.
"My Lord,
"By the several Papers now sent unto you, you will
see the Result of the Second Three Days upon the
Matters of Religion, wherein we have had many
large Debates, and received not their First Answers
until Five or Six of the Clock Yesterday in the Afternoon, nor their last Answers to our Replies till One
of the Clock this Morning, so as, the Time allotted
for this Subject being expired, we could proceed no
further for the present; but expect your Pleasure,
how you intend that the Twenty Days for the Treaty
shall be accounted, in regard we could not begin the
First Three Days upon Religion till Friday the 31th
of January, and that there will happen Three Lordsdays within the Time, which are no Days of Treaty.
According to your Directions herein, we shall govern
ourselves; who are,
"Your Lordship's Faithful and humble Servants,
Uxbridge, 14 Feb. 1644.
"Northumb.
Pembrooke & Mount.
Salisbury.
B. Denbigh.
"Since the finishing our Letter, we received a Paper, with a Letter from
His Majesty to His Commissioners,
concerning Enlargement of the
Time of the Treaty; Copies whereof are herewith sent you, together
with our Answer."
King's Commissioners desire to know, if the Parliament's have received Instructions about the King's Propositions.
"10 Feb. 1644.
"1a Paper. Having now spent Three Days severally
upon each of your Lordships Three Propositions, concerning Religion, the Militia, and Ireland; we desire to know, whether your Lordships have received
any Instructions concerning His Majesty's Propositions, that we may prepare ourselves to treat upon
them, when your Lordships shall think fit.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"Jo. Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniell Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners Answer.
"11 Feb.
"2a. We have received Instructions concerning His
Majesty's Propositions; and when the Houses of Parliament shall be satisfied in the good Progress of the
Treaty, upon their Propositions concerning Religion,
the Militia, and Ireland, they will give Time for the
Treaty upon those Propositions sent by His Majesty.
"By Command of the Commissioners
for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Examinatur,
"Dan. Earle.
Jo. Cheisley."
Parliament's Commissioners desire an Answer to the Propositions about Religion.
"11 Feb. 1644.
"3a. Having received no Satisfaction in the First
Three Days appointed to treat upon the Propositions
for Religion, we do now desire your Lordships clear
and full Answer to our former Demands on this
Subject, that no further Time may be lost in a Matter which doth so much concern the Glory of God,
the Honour of the King, and the Peace and Happiness of His Kingdoms.
"By Command of the Commissioners
for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"Dan. Earle.
Jo. Cheiseley."
King's Commissioners desire a Conference, to shew the Impropriety of passing the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy.
"11. Februarii, 1644.
"4a. We gave your Lordships as much Satisfaction,
in the First Three Days appointed to treat upon the
Propositions for Religion, as in so short Time, and
upon so little Information from your Lordships, could
reasonably be expected, in a Matter of so great and
high Importance; and as we have given your Lord
ships already many Reasons concerning the Injustice
and Inconveniency which would follow upon passing
the Bill for abolishing of Episcopacy according to
your First Proposition, so we are now ready, by Conference, to satisfy your Lordships why we conceive
the passing the said Bill is not for the Glory of God,
or the Honour of the King, and consequently cannot
be for the Peace and Happiness of His Kingdoms:
And if your Lordships Reasons shall convince us in
those Particulars, we shall willingly consent to what
you desire; if otherwise, we shall offer to your Lordships our Consent to such other Alterations as we
conceive may better contribute to the Reformation
intended, and such as may stand with the Glory of
God, and in Truth be for the Honour of the King,
and the Peace and Happiness of the Kingdoms.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners desire the King's will consent to the Propositions concerning Religion.
"11 Februarii, 1644.
"5. We have received no Satisfaction from your
Lordships, concerning the Propositions delivered in
by us for Religion, in the Name of the Parliaments
of both Kingdoms; nor have you made appear unto
us any Injustice or Inconveniency in the passing of
the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy; and, as it cannot
be denied but the settling of Religion is a Matter
which doth highly concern the Glory of God, the
Honour of the King, and the Peace and Happiness
of His Kingdoms, so do we desire your Lordships
will grant those Demands which have been made
unto you by us to that End; and we are ready, by
present Conference, to receive what your Lordships
will offer upon any of those Propositions, and to return that which may give your Lordships just Satisfaction.
"By Command of the Commissioners for
the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"Daniel Earle.
John Cheisly."
King's Commissioners desire to know all the proposed Alterations, before they consent to any.
"11 Februarii, 1644.
"6a. Your Lordships having expressed, in your Paper of the First of February, that there are other
Things touching Religion to be propounded by your
Lordships to us, we presume that by this Time you
may be enabled by your Instructions to propose the
same, and therefore we desire to receive them from
your Lordships; which we hope your Lordships will
think very reasonable, when you consider how incongruous a Thing it will appear to most Men, to consent to real and substantial Alterations in the Matter
of Religion, without having a View of the whole Alterations intended, when at the same Time there is
Mention of further Alterations.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Examinatur,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners will deliver them; but desire an Answer to the others in the mean Time.
"11 Februarii, 1644.
"7. We shall deliver in very speedily that which remains with us, touching Religion, to be propounded
unto your Lordships; but we do desire, as before,
your Lordships Answer unto our Demands, in the
same Order that we have proposed them; not conceiving it reasonable there should be any Time spent
in Debates, or Answers, upon what we shall hereafter offer, till we have received Satisfaction in our former Propositions; which we desire may be speedily
done, lest otherwise the Treaty be retarded, and
the Expectations of both Kingdoms altogether frustrated.
"By Command of the Commissioners
for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurlowe.
Jo. Cheisly."
Proposition, concerning Religion, from the Parliament. Commissioners.
"11 Febr. 1644.
"8. In Answer to your Lordships Paper this Day
delivered to us, we desire that His Majesty do give
His Royal Assent to an Act of Parliament for the due
Observation of the Lords-day; and to the Bill of
suppressing of Innovations in Churches and Chapels,
in and about the Worship of God, &c. and for the
better Advancement of the Preaching of God's Holy
Word in all Parts of this Kingdom; and to the Bill
against enjoying of Pluralities of Benefices by Spiritual Persons, and Non-residences; and we shall, in
due Time, give in to your Lordships our Demands
concerning Papists, contained in the Sixth, Seventh,
Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth Propositions; and for His
Majesty's assenting to an Act, to be framed and agreed
upon in both Houses of Parliament, for the regulating and reforming of both Universities, of the Colleges of Westm'r, Winchester, and Eaton; and for the
Education and Marriage of His Majesty's Children,
and the Children of His Heirs and Successors, in the
true Protestant Religion, as is in the One and Twentieth Proposition.
"By Command of the Commissioners
for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe.
John Cheisley.
Parliament's Commissioners desire a positive Answer to their Demands about Religion.
"12. Febr. 1644.
"9. (fn. *) There having now been several Days spent
in Debate upon the Propositions for Religion; and
all Objections alledged to the contrary, either from
Conscience, Law, or Reason, being fully answered,
and the Time allotted for that so important a Part of
the Treaty almost elapsed; we should be wanting to
the Trust reposed in us, if we should not press and
expect, as we do now, a clear and positive Answer
to these Demands concerning Religion, which we
have offered unto your Lordships from the Parliaments of both Kingdoms, as most necessary for the
settling of a safe and well-grounded Peace in all His
Majesty's Dominions.
"By Command of the Commissioners
of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe.
Jo. Chesley."
King's Commissioners are not satisfied with the Reasons offered for abolishing Episcopacy; and desire the Time of the Treaty may be enlarged.
"12 Febr. 1644.
"10. We deny that the Objections alledged by us
against the passing the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy,
from Conscience, Law, or Reason, have been fully
answered by your Lordships, or that indeed we have
received any Satisfaction from your Lordships in those
Particulars: We have received no Information from
your Lordships, to satisfy us that Episcopacy is, or
hath been, an Impediment to a perfect Reformation,
to the Growth of Religion, or that it is prejudicial to
the Civil State, which we have often desired from
your Lordships without Effect, and which are the
Grounds upon which your Lordships propose the
abolishing Episcopacy; and we shall be very willing,
and are desirous, to receive your Lordships Reasons
in those Particulars; and how short soever the Time
allotted is for the Treaty (for which we cannot be
answerable, being not bound up in Point of Time
by His Majesty, as your Lordships say you are by
your Instructions; and we should be glad that the
same might be enlarged proportionably to the Importance of the Things to be treated on), we should
be wanting to the great Trust reposed in us, if we
should consent to those Demands as they are proposed to us by your Lordships, otherwise than as they
are agreeable to our Consciences and Understandings; and such an Answer your Lordships shall receive from us to your Demands concerning Religion,
upon which we hope a safe and well-grounded Peace,
by the Blessing of God, may be established.
"By Command of His Majesty's
Commissioners.
Examinatur,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners insist upon an Answer to the Propositions concerning Religion.
"13 Febr. 1644.
"11. We did assure ourselves, that, after so many
Days Debate concerning Religion, and our Removal
of whatever Objections have been offered by your
Lordships, and our making it appear how great a
Hindrance Episcopal Government is, and hath been,
to a perfect Reformation of the Growth of Religion,
and prejudicial to the Civil State, that your Lordships would have been ready to have answered our
Expectation with the Grant of our Demands; but,
if still your Lordships remain unsatisfied, we conceive
it cannot with any Justice be imputed unto us; and
therefore we again desire your Lordships full and
clear Answer to what we have delivered unto you concerning Religion.
"By Command of the Commissioners for
the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe.
Jo. Chesly."
King's Commissioners Reasons against agreeing to the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy; and their Proposals concerning Church Government, and against Pluralities and Nonresidence.
"13 Febr. 1644.
"12. We are not yet satisfied, that the Bill insisted
on by your Lordships, which remains in His Majesty's
Hands, for the utter abolishing of Archbishops, Bishops, Deans and Chapters, &c. ought to be enacted;
believing it not agreeable to Conscience and Justice
to alienate the Lands therein mentioned to Lay-uses,
and not understanding that the Alienation thereof is
necessary at all to the Reformation of Religion; that
there is no certain Provision made for any of those
who are now legally vested in those Possessions, whereby they and their Families shall be in evident Danger
of Want of Bread; and it appearing, by your Lordships Propositions, which relate to the Articles of the
late Treaty, of the Date at Edinburgh, 29 November,
1643, and the joint Declaration of both Kingdoms,
to which you require our Assent as well as to the
Bill, that Part of the Church Lands may be, after
the passing this Bill, assigned to other Uses than is
expressed in the said Bill. Upon these Considerations, and upon the Debate which hath passed between us upon this Bill, whereby it hath appeared
that there should be so great an Alteration in the
Civil State, by this Bill being enacted, in the Failure
of Justice at the Common Law, and otherwise in
many several Particulars of great Importance to the
Subjects of this Kingdom, which, for aught appears
to us, is not yet provided for; and that, by a particular Clause in the Bill, His Majesty's ancient and
undoubted Power of the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction
is wholly taken away: Besides, it may be very considerable, what Inconveniencies would ensue by passing this Bill now, which looks back, and is to begin
from November was Twelve-month, whereby all those
Acts of Jurisdiction exercised by Bishops since that
Time are declared void, which would produce great
Inconveniencies and Mischiefs, touching the Probates of Wills and Administrations throughout the
Kingdom; not to speak of the Doubts which may
arise in many conscientious Men who have been ordained by Bishops since that Time, which may seem
to be likewise declared void by this Bill, and so at
least to discountenance all Acts which have ensued
by virtue of that Ordination, and thereby many Questions may arise in Law, concerning Marriages, Legitimations, and Descents of Inheritances; and, for
many other Reasons expressed in our Conference and
Debate, we conceive that your Lordships may be
satisfied that this individual Bill ought not to pass.
"For the Matter then of the said Bill, the Extirpation of Episcopacy, we desire your Lordships to consider, that it is evident, and we conceive consented
to on all Parts, that it hath continued even from the
Apostles Times, by continual Succession, in the
Church of Christ, till within these few Years, without Intermission or Interruption; and then how perilous a Thing it must be, and prejudicial to the
Public Peace, to remove and destroy a Form of Government so long exercised in this Kingdom, and
under which we have enjoyed as great a Measure of
Happiness (to say no more) as any Nation in Christendom (and which your Lordships have not pretended
to be unlawful), before we particularly see the Model
of that Government and Jurisdiction which is to be
established in the Place thereof, that thereby we may
be assured that it be such to which as well those who
like, as all those who dislike, the present Government, will submit; otherwise Peace, which is the
main End and Pretence for Alteration, cannot be
established: And therefore we very earnestly beseech
your Lordships, to consider and weigh, whether, without shaking Foundations, it be not much better, and
more agreeable to Christian Prudence and Charity,
to remove those Particulars from the present Government, and make such Alterations therein as may most
probably give Satisfaction to all Persons seriously
disturbed or afflicted in their Consciences, than, by
destroying the whole, to give just Offence and Scandal to very many pious and religious Persons.
"Under these Considerations, and for the uniting
and reconciling all Differences between us in the
Matter of Religion, and procuring a blessed Peace;
we are willing,
"That Freedom be left to all Persons, of what
Opinions soever, in Matters of Ceremony;
and that all the Penalties of the Laws and
Customs which enjoin those Ceremonies be
suspended; that the Bishop shall exercise no
Act of Jurisdiction or Ordination, without
the Consent and Counsel of the Presbyters,
who shall be chosen by the Clergy of each
Diocese, out of the learnedest and gravest
Ministers of that Diocese.
"That the Bishop keep his constant Residence in
his Diocese, except when he shall be required
by His Majesty to attend Him on any Occasion; and that (if he be not hindered by the
Infirmities of old Age or Sickness) he preach
every Sunday in some Church within his Diocese.
"That the Ordination of Ministers shall be always in a public and solemn Manner; and
very strict Rules observed concerning the Sufficiency and other Qualifications of those
Men who shall be received into Holy Orders; and the Bishops shall not receive any
into Holy Orders without the Approbation
and Consent of the Presbyters, or the major
Part of them.
"That competent Maintenance and Provision be
established, by Act of Parliament, to such
Vicarages as belong to Bishops, Deans and
Chapters; out of the Impropriations, or according to the Value of those Impropriations,
of the several Parishes.
"That, for the Time to come, no Man shall be capable of Two Parsonages, or Vicarages with
Cure of Souls.
"That, towards the settling of the Public Peace,
One Hundred Thousand Pounds shall be raised,
by Act of Parliament, out of the Estates of
Bishops, Deans, and Chapters, in such Manner as shall be thought fit by the King and
Two Houses of Parliament, without the Alienation of any of the said Lands.
"That the Jurisdiction, in Causes Testamentary,
Decimal, Matrimonial, be settled, in such
Manner as shall seem most convenient, by the
King and Two Houses of Parliament; and
likewise that One or more Acts of Parliament
be passed, for regulating of Visitations, and
against immoderate Fees in Ecclesiastical
Courts, and the Abuses of frivolous Excommunications, and all other Abuses in the
Exercise of Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction, in such
Manner as shall be agreed upon by His Majesty and both Houses of Parliament.
"And if your Lordships shall insist upon any
other Thing which your Lordships shall think
necessary for Reformation, we shall very willingly apply ourselves to the Consideration
thereof.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners cannot agree to the Proposals concerning Religion from the King's Commissioners; but insist on the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy, and their other Propositions concerning Religion.
"13 Februarii, 1644.
"Whereas we expected your Lordships Resolution
for His Majesty's Assent unto the Bill for the utter
abolishing of Archbishops, Bishops, &c.; we find,
by your First Paper given in this Evening, that your
Lordships are not yet satisfied that the Bill should
pass; and you are pleased to express several Reasons
and Objections against it, which were at large answered and cleared in the Public Debate; but what
was then said by us, is now by your Lordships wholly
omitted, nor may we in Writing represent it again
unto your Lordships, it not being agreeable to the
Usage of Parliament to deliver Reasons for or against
a Bill, though we were willing, by Conference in the
Treaty, to satisfy all Doubts, and remove all Scruples, which remained with you.
"And so far were we from consenting that Episcopacy hath continued from the Apostles Times by
continual Succession, that the contrary was made evident unto your Lordships, and the Unlawfulness of
it fully proved; and for that which your Lordships
have propounded, for uniting and reconciling all Differences in the Matter of Religion, it is a new Proposition which wholly differs from ours, is no Ways
satisfactory to our Desires, nor consisting with that
Reformation to which both Kingdoms are obliged by
their solemn Covenant; therefore we can give no
other Answer to it, but must insist to desire your Lordships, that the Bill may be passed, and our other Demands concerning Religion granted.
"By Command of the Commissioners of
the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisley."
Paper from the King's Commissioners, against the Ordinance for the Assembly, and the One for taking the Covenant.
"14 Februarii, 1644.
"14. For the Confirmation of the Ordinances concerning the Calling and Sitting of the Assembly of
Divines, and the Taking the Covenant, we conceive
neither of them need be insisted on, if the Alterations
of Church Government be agreed upon between us;
and if it be not, it will not be reasonable that we consent to those Ordinances; and for the Covenant, we
cannot advise His Majesty to swear and sign the same,
nor consent that an Act of Parliament should pass,
for the enjoining the Taking thereof by His Majesty's Subjects.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners desire to know if these Two Ordinances are absolutely refused.
"13 Febr. 1644.
"15. We conceive your Lordships Second Paper,
this Day delivered to us, is a Denial to our Demands;
that the Ordinance for the Calling and Sitting of the
Assembly of Divines be confirmed by Act of Parliament; and that His Majesty take the Solemn League
and Covenant; and that the Covenant be enjoined to
be taken according the Second Proposition; wherein
if we misconceive your Lordships Intents, we desire
you would explain your Meaning, and accordingly
shall make our Reports to the Parliaments of both
Kingdoms.
"By Command of the Commissioners
for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"Daniel Earle.
Jo. Cheisley."
Paper from the King's Commissioners, desiring the former Liturgy may remain, and the Directory for Public Worship may be laid aside; and concerning Church Government.
"13 Februarii, 1644.
"16. We do not yet conceive that the Directory for
Public Worship, delivered to us by your Lordships,
ought to be enacted, or that it is so likely to procure
and preserve the Peace of this Kingdom, as the Liturgy or Common-Prayer-Book already established by
Law, against which we have not yet received from
your Lordships any Objections; which Liturgy (as
the same was compiled by many Learned and Reverend Divines, of whom some died Martyrs for the
Protestant Religion) we conceive to be an excellent
Form for the Worship of God, and hath been generally so held throughout the Kingdom till within these
Two or Three Years at the most; and therefore, since
there are no Inconveniencies pretended to arise from
the Book of Common-Prayer to which we conceive
the Directory is not more liable, and since there is
nothing commendable in the Directory which is not
already in the Book of Common-Prayer, we conceive
it much better, and more conducing to the Peace of
this Kingdom, still to observe the said Form, with
such Dispensations as we have expressed in our First
Paper now presented to your Lordships; and if there
shall be any Alterations proposed by your Lordships
of such Particulars in the Book of Common-Prayer
as good Men are scrupled at, we shall willingly endeavour to give your Lordships Satisfaction in those
Particulars; but as yet can make no further or other
Answer than we have already done, but shall be ready
to receive such Objections as your Lordships shall
think fit to make against the Book of CommonPrayer, and your Reasons for introducing the Directory; and for the Propositions concerning Church
Government annexed to your First Paper, we have no
Information how that Government shall be constituted
in particular, nor what Jurisdiction shall be established, or by whom it shall be granted, or upon
whom it shall depend; and therein also we desire
further Information from your Lordships.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners take this for a Denial to the Directory and Church Government.
"13 Febr. 1644.
"17. We do conceive your Lordships Third Paper
is a Denial of our Demands concerning the Directory of Public Worship, and the Proposition for
Church Government, against which your Lordships
have made no Objections; and your Queries are already satisfied by Conference; and we shall accordingly make our Reports to the Parliaments of both
Kingdoms.
"By Command of the Commissioners
of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"Daniel Earle.
Jo. Cheisly."
Paper from the King's Commissioners, desiring some Bills about Church-matters, about the Marriage of the King's Children, Suppression of Popery, &c.
"13 Februarii, 1644.
"18. We desire to see the Bills for the Observation
of the Lords-day, for Suppression of Innovations in
Churches and Chapels, and for the better Advancement of the Preaching of God's Holy Word, which
are mentioned in your Lordships Paper of the 11th
of February, we being very ready to consent to the
Subject-matter of those Bills; we have expressed, in our
Paper delivered to your Lordships, what we conceive
fit to be done in the Business of Pluralities, which
will prevent many Inconveniencies that Way; and
when your Lordships shall give us your Demands
concerning Papists, and when we shall see the Acts
for the regulating and reforming of both Universities,
of the Colleges of Westm. Winchester, and Eaton, and
for the Education and Marriage of His Majesty's
Children, and the Children of His Heirs and Successors, in the true Protestant Religion, we shall give
your Lordships such Answers as shall be fit, being
very willing to concur with your Lordships in any
good Means for the suppressing of Popery, and Advancement of the Protestant Religion; and we are
well assured, that His Majesty hath taken a pious
Care for the Education of all His Children in the
true Protestant Religion; and having already married One of His Children, to the Satisfaction, we
conceive, of all His good Subjects, we are confident,
in due Time, His Majesty will so dispose of the rest
in Marriage, as shall be most for the Advancement
of Religion, and the Good and Welfare of all His
Dominions.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Parliament's Commissioners Answer.
"13 Februarii, 1644.
"19. To your Lordships Fourth Paper, we answer,
The Bill for suppressing of Innovations in Churches
and Chapels, in and about the Worship of God, &c.
and for the better Advancement of the Preaching of
God's Holy Word in all Parts of this Kingdom, and
against the enjoying of Pluralities of Benefices by
Spiritual Persons, and Non-residences, were heretofore presented to His Majesty, and remain with
Him; and we herewith deliver to your Lordships
the Ordinance for the due Observation of the Lordsday; and we insist on our former Demands concerning them: And when your Lordships have given us
your full Answers to our Desires already with you
concerning Religion, we then shall deliver unto your
Lordships our Demands concerning Papists, the regulating the Universities, the Education and Marriage of His Majesty's Children in the true Protestant
Religion, contained in Our Paper of the 11th of this
Instant February.
"By Command of the Commissioners
for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"Daniel Earle.
Jo. Cheisley."
King's Commissioners further Arguments against the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy; and desire an Answer to their Objections to them in Writing.
"13 Februarii, 1644.
"20. We conceive that our Answer to your Lordships, concerning the Bill for the utter abolishing of
Archbishops, Bishops, &c. was so reasonable, that it
clearly appears thereby, that the passing that individual Bill is not agreeable to Conscience and Justice,
and that it would be very prejudicial to the Civil
State, and to the Peace of the Kingdom; neither
have the Reasons and Objections given by us against
it, first in Debate, and since in Writing, been answered in Debate by your Lordships; and therefore
we know no Reason why your Lordships may not
give an Answer to those Objections in Writing; for,
as it is not agreeable to the Usage of Parliament for
the Two Houses to give His Majesty Reasons why
(fn. *) He should pass any Bill presented by them, so it
is no more agreeable to the same Usage, for His
Majesty to give Reasons, why (fn. *) He doth not pass
Bills so presented: But we desire your Lordships to
consider, that we are now in a Treaty; and we conceive the proper Business thereof to be, for your Lordships to give us Reasons why His Majesty should
consent to those Propositions made by you, or for us
to give Reasons to your Lordships why we cannot
consent to those Propositions; otherwise it would only
be a Demand on your Lordships Part, and no Argument of Treaty between us. And we must prosess to your Lordships, that, as we conceived in our
former Paper, that as the Succession of Episcopaey
by continual Succession from the Apostles Time was
consented to on all Parts, so we cannot remember
that the contrary thereof was so much as alledged,
much less that the Unlawfulness thereof was proved,
the Question of the Lawfulness thereof having never yet
come into Debate; and we shall be very ready to receive
any Assertion from your Lordships to that Purpose,
not doubting but we shall give your Lordships full
Satisfaction in that Point; and we conceive the Alterations proposed by us to your Lordships to be a
very proper Answer to your Lordships Propositions,
and most agreeable to the End for which those Propositions seemed to be made: And since it appears
that the utter abolishing of Episcopacy in the Manner proposed is visibly inconvenient, and may be
mischievous; the regulating of Episcopacy, being
most consonant to the primitive Institution, will produce all those good Effects towards Peace and Unity;
which regulated Episcopacy is the Sum of our former Paper, and we desire your Lordships to consent
to the same. And we again offer to your Lordships,
that, if you shall insist upon any other Thing necessary for Reformation, we will apply ourselves to the
Consideration thereof.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
Answer to them.
"13 Februarii, 1644.
"Concerning the Ordinances for the Calling and
Sitting of the Assembly of Divines, and the taking
the Covenant, we can give no further Answer than
we have done in our Second Paper delivered to your
Lordships this Day.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
King's Commissioners desire to know the Objections to the Common-Prayer Book, and the Reasons for establishing the Directory;
"13 Febr. 1644.
"22. Our Expressions, in our Answer to your Lordships Demands concerning the Directory for Public
Worship, import only what we as yet conceive concerning that Matter, there having hitherto been no
Debate touching the same, or concerning the Common-Prayer-Book now established by Law, and thereby (fn. †) intended to be abolished; and therefore we did
and what Form of Church Government is proposed.
in that Paper, and do still, desire to receive your
Lordships Objections against the Book of Common
Prayer, and your Reasons for introducing the Directory; neither can our Answer to the Propositions for
Church Government, annexed to your First Paper,
be otherwise taken, than as our Desire to receive Information how that Government should be constituted in particular, and what Jurisdiction should be
established, by whom granted, and upon whom it
should depend; which Queries were not satisfied
by any Conference, your Lordships (as we conceive)
having declared yourselves, that the particular Form
or Model of that Government, mentioned in those
Propositions only in general, were not then particularly
agreed on, and we have since desired and expected to
receive it; and therefore your Lordships cannot conceive we have denied that which we have not yet seen,
nor been informed of.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
They desire Copies of Papers formerly sent to the King, about Religion; and will treat about Papists, the Marriage of the King's Children, &c.
"13 Febr. 1644.
"23. We have not the Bills here which we desired
of your Lordships in our Fourth Paper to see, and
which you now say were heretofore presented to His
Majesty; but we shall take speedy Care to have those
Bills if they remain with His Majesty, and in the
mean Time desire your Lordships to give us Copies
of them; and we shall give your Lordships a speedy
Answer, as we shall to the Ordinance for the due Observation of the Lords-day, which we received from
your Lordships this Night, and had never before
seen; and we shall be ready to receive your Lordships Demand concerning Papists, the regulating the
Universities, the Education and Marriage of His Majesty's Children; and shall return our Answers accordingly.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
"14 Februarii, 1644.
They desire the Time for the Treaty may be lengthened.
"We have this Day received Direction from His
Majesty to move your Lordships, that you will endeavour to procure an Addition of Time for this Treaty,
after the Expiration of the Days limited for the same,
upon the Reasons mentioned in His Majesty's Letter;
which Letter we herewith deliver unto your Lordships.
"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.
"Exam'r,
"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."
King's Commission, authorizing His Commissioners to prolongue the Treaty.
"CHARLES R.
"Right Trusty and Right Entirely-beloved Cousins
and Counsellors, Right Trusty and Right Wellbeloved Cousins and Counsellors, Right Trusty and
Well-beloved Counsellors, and Trusty and Wellbeloved, We greet you well Having received from
you a particular Account of your Proceedings in the
Treaty, and observing thereby how impossible it is,
within the Days limited, to give such Answers to the
Three Propositions you are now upon, as you might,
if, upon Consideration had of the rest of the Propositions, you could clearly see what Fruit such Answers will produce, in order to a blessed Peace for the
present, and the future Good and Happiness of this
Kingdom: We have thought it fit to advise you, that
you propose and desire of the Commissioners with
whom you treat, that they will procure such further
Time to be allowed, after the Expiration of the
Twenty Days, as may be sufficient for you, upon a
full Understanding one of another, upon the whole to
make such a Conclusion, that all Our Subjects may
reap the Benefit good Men may pray, for Deliverance
from these bloody Distractions, and be united in
Peace and Charity; and, if you think fit, you may
communicate this Our Letter unto them. And so
We bid you heartily Farewell.
"Given at Our Court at Oxford, the 13th of February, 1644.
"To Our Right Trusty and Right Entirelybeloved Cousins and Counsellors, and
Our Right Trusty and Right Wellbeloved Cousins and Counsellors, and
Our Right Trusty and Well-beloved
Counsellors, and Our Trusty and Wellbeloved, Our Commissioners for the
Treaty at Uxbridge.
"Exam'r,
"By His Majesty's Command.
"John Thurloe Secretary.
George Digby."
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Parliament's Commissioners will apply to the House about it.
"14 Febr. 1644.
"Concerning the Paper delivered by your Lordships
for Addition of Time for the Treaty, we can give
no other Answer, than that we will send Copies of
His Majesty's Letter, and of the Paper, unto the
Houses of Parliament; and, after Signification of
their Pleasure, we will give further Answer.
"By Command of the Commissioners of
the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.
"Exam'r,
"Jo. Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisley."
Letter to the French King, to release the Goods of English Merchants, and to restore English Ships, &c. taken by the French.
"Your Royal Majesty may please to understand, by
this Address, that the Parliament of England having
received Information, by the Complaints of the Merchants of this Nation, that, by Order from Your
Majesty, their Goods have been lately seized, arrested, and sold, at the Instance of some of Your Majesty's
Subjects, pretending that Justice is here denied to
them, do think it necessary to give Your Majesty this
real Assurance, that their Endeavours are wholly bent
to keep inviolably the ancient Amity and Commerce
between both Kingdoms; and, to that End, have
been and are both desirous and ready to cause speedy
Justice to be admitted to Your Majesty's Subjects,
when they shall demand it in a legal Way: Mean
while they most earnestly entreat Your Majesty, that,
according to Justice and Equity you will please to
command Your Ministers concerned therein forthwith to revoke the Arrests, to release all Seizurcs
made of the English Merchants Goods, and likewise
to free and restore all Ships of War, and of Merchants, belonging to this Crown; and if any Sale be
already made of any such Ships or Goods, that Satisfaction be forthwith given to the Owners, that thereby Trade and Commerce may be restored to its just
Liberty, and the mutual Friendship and Correspondence between these Two anciently-allied Crowns
may be happily continued, to the Honour and Advantage of both Nations, which is the unfeigned Desire of the Parliament of England, who have authorized and commanded us to subscribe ourselves, in
their Names,
"Your Majesty's Most humble Servants,
"Gray of Warke, Speaker of the
House of Peers pro Tempore."
Adjourn.
House adjourned till 9a cras.