DIE Jovis, 1die Januarii.
PRAYERS, by Mr. Vynes.
Ds. Grey de Warke. Speaker.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Message from the H. C. with a Proposition about the Militia;
A Message was brought from the House of Commons,
by Sir Henry Vane Junior, &c.
To desire Concurrence in these Particulars following:
1. A Proposition concerning the settling of the Militia of this Kingdom. (Here enter it.)
Read, and Agreed to.
and for an Answer to be prepared to the King's last Letter.
2. In an Order, as follows:
"It is this Day Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That the King's Letter
of the 29th of December be referred to the Members
of both Houses that are of the Committee of both
Kingdoms, to communicate the same to the Scotts
Commissioners; and to advise with them, and prepare
(fn. *) an Answer thereunto, and report the same to the
The Answer returned was:
That this House agrees to the Particulars of this
Montrel, Leave to return to London.
Ordered, That Montrele, the French Agent for
Scotland, shall have Liberty to return out of Scotland
Lady Harcourt's Ordinance.
The Earl of Manchester reported, "That the Committee have considered of the Ordinance concerning
the Lady Harcourt; and they think it fit to pass as
it came from the House of Commons."
And, upon further Consideration, the House Ordered, That the said Ordinance be re-committed; and
the Lord Viscount Say & Seale and the Lord Wharton
are added to the Committee.
Ordinance to continue the Committee for the Army, and the Treasurers at War.
Next, the Ordinance for continuing the Treasurer at
Wars, and the Committee for the Army, was read Twice,
and committed to these Lords following:
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Any Five, to meet on Saturday Morning.
L. Say & Seal's Claim to be L. Warden of the Cinque Ports, &c.
Next, the Lord Viscount Say & Seale presented a Petition to this House; which was read, as follows.
(Here enter it.)
Ordered, That, upon Thursday next, this House
will hear the Counsel of the Lord Viscount Say & Seale;
and that a Copy of this Petition be shewed to the King's
Counsel, that so they may be heard on the King's Behalf if they shall desire.
Proposition for settling the Militia.
"That both Houses of Parliament shall arm, train,
and discipline, or cause to be armed, trained, and disciplined, all the Forces of the Kingdoms of England
and Ireland, and Dominion of Wales, the Isles of
Guernesey and Jernesey, and the Town of Berwicke
upon Tweede, already raised, both for Sea and Land
Service; and shall from Time to Time raise, levy,
arm, train, and discipline, or cause to be levied,
armed, trained, and disciplined, any other Forces, for
Land and Sea Service, as in their Judgements they
shall from Time to Time think fit and appoint.
"That the Monies be raised and levied for the Maintenance and Use of the said Forces for Land Service,
and of the Navy and Forces for Sea Service, in such
Sort, and by such Ways and Means, as both Houses
of Parliament shall from Time to Time think fit and
appoint, and not otherwise.
"That all the said Forces, both for Land and Sea
Service, so raised or levied, or to be raised or levied,
and also the Admiralty and Navy, shall be from Time
to Time employed, managed, ordered, and disposed,
by both Houses of Parliament, in such Sort, and by
such Ways and Means, as they shall think fit and
appoint, and not otherwise.
"To suppress all Forces raised, or to be raised,
without Authority and Consent of both Houses of
Parliament, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace
of the Kingdoms of England and, Dominion of
Wales, the Isles of Guernesey and Jernesey, and the
Town of Berwick upon Tweede, or any of them.
"To suppress any Foreign Forces who shall invade,
or endeavour to invade, the Kingdoms of England and
Ireland, Dominion of Wales, the Isles of Guernesey
and Jernesey, and the Town of Berwick upon Tweede,
or any of them.
"And that it shall be High Treason in any Person
or Persons, who shall levy, conduct, or command, any
Forces, without such Authority or Consent, to the
Disturbance of the Public Peace of the said Kingdoms, any Commission under the Great Seal or other
Warrant to the contrary notwithstanding; and he or
they to be uncapable of any Pardon from His Majesty; and their Estates shall be disposed as both
Houses of Parliament shall think fit, and not otherwise.
"To conjoin such Forces of the Kingdom of England with the Forces of the Kingdom of Scotland as
the said Houses of Parliament shall from Time to
Time judge fit and necessary, to resist all Foreign Invasions, and to suppress any Forces raised, or to be
raised, against or within either of the said Kingdoms, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of the
said Kingdoms, or any of them, by any Authority
under the Great Seal, or other Warrant whatsoever,
without Consent of both Houses of Parliament of
England, and the Parliament or the Estates of the
Parliament of Scotland, respectively.
"Resolved, &c. That the Lords and Commons, upon
reading the King's Letters of the 26th and 29th of
December, do find a greater Necessity to continue in
their Resolution, That the Militia of this Kingdom
shall be put in the Power of both Houses of Parliament, and not otherwise, according to the Propositions above expressed.
"That the Propositions before-mentioned, concerning
the Militia of this Kingdom, be communicated by the
Members of both Houses that are of the Committee
of both Kingdoms to the Scotts Commissioners, and
their Concurrence desired in the said Propositions,
and that with their Consent they may be presented to
the King, in the Place of the former Propositions
concerning the Militia, on the Behalf of the Kingdom of England, with the rest of the Propositions
that shall be agreed on by the mutual Consent of
Lord Say & Seale's Petition, claiming the Wardenship of the Cinque Ports, &c.
"To the Right Honourable the Lords assembled
"The humble Petition of William Viscount
Say & Seale;
"That the Constableship of Dover and Wardenship
of the Cinque Ports was very anciently the Inheritance of the Fines, by Gift of William the First,
called The Conqueror, to John Fynes his Kinsman, and
his Heirs for ever, which they successively have enjoyed, from Father to Son, for Five Generations together, till that, about the Time of King John,
the Fiens were removed from the actual Enjoyment of
the said Places, and so continued until the Reign of
King Henry the Sixth, which King, by His Letters
Patents, in the 25th Year of His Reign, having
revived upon Sir James Fynes the Barony of
Sey & Seale, by other Letters Patents, bearing
Date the 24th of February, in the same Year of
His Reign, He annexed unto the said Barony, for
the Support thereof, the Office of the Constableship
of Dover, and Wardenship of the Cinque Ports,
with the Profits and Emoluments thereunto appertaining, and also with a Pension of Two Hundred Pounds
per Annum; all which (as by the Letters Patents
themselves upon Record doth appear) were granted
to the said Sir James Fynes, and the Heirs Males
of his Body, for the Support of the said Honour
and Dignity; and the said Sir James Fynes accordingly enjoyed the same during his Life; but being
barbarously murthered by that most execrable Rebel
Jack Cade, and immediately the Civil War ensuing
between the Houses of Yorke and Lancaster, the
great Men that were Partizans on either Side, and
in Effect Masters of the King and Kingdom by Turns,
(videlicet,) Humfrey Duke of Buckingham, and Richard
the Great Earl of Warwicke, possessed themselves of
the said Castle and Office, for the better strengthening
and carrying on that Party; by which Means, William Fynes Lord Say, Son and Heir to the said Sir
James Fynes, was kept from his Right, being also
slain himself, before the End of those Troubles, at
Barnett Feild, on the Party of Edward the Fourth,
when he was in a very hopeful Way to have recovered his Right with Advantage, had he survived that
Day; but being unfortunately slain therein, and his
Son Henry Lord Say not over living his Father above
Four or Five Years, and dying within the Years of
his Minority or soon after, and his whole Estate being
detained from him by his Mother (who survived him),
he left his Son Richard Lord Say, a Child of Two
Years old; who, also dying soon after he came to
Age, left his Son Edward Fynes, a Child of One
Year old; who, likewise dying within Four or Five
Years after he came out of his Minority, left his Son
Richard Fynes, your Petitioner's Grandfather, a Child
of Eight Years old; by means of which continual
Wardship and Minority of your Petitioner's Grandfather, and the said Grandfather's Father, Grandfather, and Great Grandfather successively, the Office
of the Constableship of Dover, and Wardenship of
the Cinque Ports, being in the mean Time in the
Hands of the King's Sons, and others the greatest
Men of the Kingdom, your Petitioner's Ancestors
were so far from any Likelihood of recovering their
Right out of their Hands, that the very Barony itself
whereunto the said Office with the Appurtenances
and Pension were annexed, by the like Means and
Occasion, was discontinued in the Time of your Petitioner's Great Grandfather; neither could his Son,
through the Opposition of some great Men at that
Time, recover the same; but his Son, your Petitioner's Father, pursuing his Claim in the Time of
Queen Elizabeth, the said Queen, upon due Information of his Right from divers Noble Lords appointed as Commissioners to examine the same, caused
a Warrant to be issued forth, for recognizing and
confirming of the said Barony upon him: But being
prevented by Death before She had accomplished the
same, in the First Year of King James, upon the
like Petition and Information, it was recognized and
confirmed unto your Petitioner's Father; but with a
Clause of Non obstante, that he should take Prececedency only as from the Time of the said Recognition
and Confirmation; which your now Petitioner conceiving to have been wrongfully procured, by means
of some that were then powerful in Court, to maintain their own Precedency, and haply also to bar your
Petitioner's Father and his Heirs from the claiming of
other the Consequences of the said ancient Barony
(amongst which the Office of the Constableship of
Dover and Wardenship of the Cinque Ports is One);
upon the Addresses of your Petitioner to His late
Majesty, for the Restitution of his ancient Precedency
belonging to the said Barony, the said King did,
by his Letters Patents, recognize and confirm the
same unto him, without any Restraint; and was
graciously pleased to add thereunto the Title of a
Viscount, as by His Letters Patents, bearing Date
the 7th of July, in the 22th Year of His Reign, doth
"In Consideration of the Premises, and that your
Petitioner's ancient Barony is now fully recognized unto him as his Right, having (as
he humbly conceiveth) the same Right to the
said Office of the Constableship of Dover, and
Wardenship of the Cinque Ports, with the
Appurtenances, and to the said Pension of
Two Hundred Pounds per Annum, as Heir
Male Lineal descended from the Body of the
said Sir James Fynes Lord Sey, to whom,
and the Heirs Males of his Body, the said
Office and Pension were granted for the Support of his Barony (and not without some Relation also, as your Petitioner conceiveth, to
that more ancient Right of Inheritance, which,
from the very Time of the Conquest, the
Fynes had in the same Office), the Discontinuance of the Right only happening through
the Injury of distracted Times, the Power of
Princes and their Favourites, and the Calamity of so many of your Petitioner's Ancestors
through continual successive Wardship and
Minority; by which Means the Barony itself
was also discontinued for a while; as, by the
Justice of His late Majesty, his Right therein
hath been recognized and restored to him, so
he humbly prayeth this Honourable House,
that they would take his Right to the said
Office likewise into their Consideration, and
the rather, because in the said Grant, not only
Matter of Trust, but also several Particulars
of Profit are contained, some whereof were
then first granted with express Declaration,
that they were given as well for Support of
the said Barony, as for the Fee and Wages
of the said Office: And, if it shall be thought
requisite for the Public Good that the said
Office should, from Time to Time, be disposed of by both Houses of Parliament, as
your Petitioner is most ready to submit all his
particular Interests to be disposed of in such a
Way as to the Wisdom of both Houses of
Parliament shall be thought most expedient,
for the greater Advantage of the Commonwealth; so he doth also wholly refer himself
to the Consideration and Justice of the said
Houses, for his Satisfaction in some other
Way, according as, upon the Examination
of his Right, and Hearing of his Counsel,
they shall find Cause.
"And your Petitioner shall daily pray, &c.
W. Say & Seale."