DIE Lunæ, 5 die Januarii.
PRAYERS, by Mr. Vynes.
Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Mr. Serle's Ordinance.
The Earl of Manchester reported, "That the Committee hath considered of the Ordinance concerning
Mr. Serle; and they think it fit to pass, with some
Alterations:" Which being read, this House Agreed
thereunto, and Ordered to be sent to the House of
Commons, for their Concurrence.
Ordinance for paying Mr. Pym's Debts.
The Earl of Kent reported, "That the Committee
hath considered of the Ordinance for paying the
Debts of Mr. Pym; and they think it fit to pass, with
some Alterations and Additions:" Which being
read, the said Ordinance was Agreed (fn. *) to, with the
Alterations and Additions.
Message from the H. C. for a Conference about the Propositions.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Pye Knight, &c.
To desire a Conference, touching the Propositions
for a safe and well-grounded Peace, at such Time as
their Lordships shall please to appoint.
Ordered, To give a present Conference, in the
The Answer returned was:
That this House will give a present Conference, in
the Painted Chamber, as is desired.
Message to them, with Mr. Pym's and Mr. Serle's Ordinances;
A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by
Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:
1. To desire their Concurrence in the Alterations and
Provisions to the Ordinance concerning paying Mr.
2. To desire Concurrence in the Alterations in Mr.
about the Devon Committees;
3. To desire Expedition in the Addition of Names to
the Committee of Devonshire formerly sent down.
and the Ordinance concerning Covent Garden Church.
4. To desire, at this next Conference, this House may
communicate (fn. *) to them some Alterations in the Ordinance concerning The Covent Garden Church.
Letter from the Committee sent to the Army, with Papers between them and the Scots.
The Speaker acquainted this House with a Letter received from the Earl of Rutland and the Lord Willoughby, dated at Nottingham, Jan. 2, 1645; which
was read. (Here enter it.)
Also divers Papers which passed between them and
the Scotch. (Here enter them.)
Answer from the H. C.
Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page return with this
That they agree to the Alterations in the Ordinance
concerning Mr. Pym's Debts: (Here enter it.) And
that the Conference may be concerning the Ordinance
touching The Covent Garden: To all the rest, they
will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.
L. Say & Seal's Claim.
Ordered, That the Hearing of the Counsel concerning the Lord Viscount Say & Seale's Petition is deferred till Thursday next come Sevennight.
E. of Suffolk versus the Executors of Sir R. Hitcham.
Upon hearing the Counsel of the Earl of Suff. † Plaintiff, and the Counsel of the Executors of Sir Rob't
Hitcham, concerning the Demurrer of the Defendants
to the Petition of the said Earl of Suff. It is Ordered,
That this House will take the same into Consideration
on Wednesday next.
Message from the H. C. with Ordinances, &c.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Greene, &c.
To desire Concurrence in these Ordinances:
1. An Ordinance concerning the Commissioners of the
2. An Ordinance to make Commissioners of the Navy
Justices of the Peace.
3. An Ordinance concerning the Commissioners of
the Customs to sell Goods in Warehouses.
4. Instructions for Reprizals.
The Answer returned was:
That this House will take these Particulars into Consideration, and send an Answer by Messengers of their
Paper from the Scots Commissioners, about the Answer to the King's Letters.
The Earl of Essex reported, "That the Members of
the Committee of both Houses that are of the Committee of both Kingdoms have communicated the
Answer of both Houses to the King's Two Letters;
and they have returned a Paper."
Which was read. (Here enter it.)
Ordered, That this Business be taken into Consideration To-morrow Morning.
Conference about the Propositions.
The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the
Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the
House was resumed.
And the Report of the Conference to be To-morrow.
Message from the H. C. with Ordinances.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Lile, &c.
To desire Concurrence in divers Ordinances:
1. For Colonel Birch to have Martial Law at Hereford.
2. For Colonel Morgan to have Martial Law at
3. Concerning the Garrison of Shrewsbury.
4. An Ordinance concerning Martial Law.
The Answer returned was:
That this House [ (fn. *) will take] this Message into Consideration, and will send an Answer by Messengers of
Letter from the Committee with the Army, about agreeing with the Scots General to pay him an Allowance for his Forces, in Lieu of Free Quarter.
"For the Right Honourable the Lord Gray of
Warke, Speaker of the House of Peers.
"The next Night after we came to Grantham, the
Carriages with the Cloaths and Money came to us,
with a Convoy of Three Hundred Scottish Horse and
Dragooners. We have received what was appointed
for us; and the same Night gave Orders for the
Cloaths and Fifteen Thousand Pounds in Money to go
to Nottingham the next Day; and sent to the Committee there, to provide Waggoners to carry them to
the Scottish Quarters; and writ to Lieutenant General David Lesley accordingly: The Money and
Cloaths were received, as by the Acquittance returned to Goulds. Hall will appear. We have used
our best Endeavours towards the reducing of Newarke
and Belvoior, and find very ready Compliance by
the Answers we have received to our Letters from the
several Committees, and do not doubt but that their
Actions will be suitable. The Countries adjacent
are very forward in this Service, and the Officers and
Soldiers vigilant and full of Courage. We desired
to meet Lieutenant General David Lesly at Nott'gham; we naming the Place, left the Time to him:
But afterwards receiving the Petition herewith sent
from the County of Nott'gham, we wrote unto him
on Tuesday in the Afternoon, to meet us on Thursday;
and received from him a Letter (as you will perceive)
without Date; which not coming till Tuesday Seven
at Night, we imagined it Tuesday in the next Week,
till we heard about Midnight from the Governor at
Nottingham, that he had stayed there most of that
Day for us. Lieutenant General David Lesly met
us Yesternight at this Town; and his Letter expressing no Committee of that Kingdom to be with
their Army, we desired to know what Authority he
had to join with us, which, with the Results of our
Conference, is herewith sent unto you.
"The Country alledgeth the Number of their Soldiers to be under their List given to us. We desired to take Musters of the Scottish Army, according to our Instructions; and shewed him the Ordinance for our disposing Six Thousand Pounds to
them after Musters taken by us. He returned this
Answer, "He could not consent to it, till he received
Authority from his Superiors." We desired to know
whom he meant. He said, "From the Committee
of both Kingdoms at Lond'n, or any other that
could give him Leave;" and for which he agreed
to write to the Commissioners of Scotl. now at Lond'n.
Being for the present debarred from taking Musters,
we proceeded to do this distressed County the best
Service we could; and thereon delivered our Offer
of Ten Thousand Pounds Monthly to them, which
we pressed him to accept; and amongst other Arguments, for that by the Treaty there should be
Twenty-one Thousand Men for Thirty Thousand
Pounds Monthly; and Ten Thousand Pounds a
Month was more than proportionable to their Forces,
if they were betwixt Six and Seven Thousand. He
told us, "The Number of the Horse increased the
Charge." We answered, "By the Treaty, there
were to be Eighteen Thousand Foot, and but Two
Thousand Horse, and One Thousand Dragoons."
Our Papers are figured in the Order as we received
them; and upon our last, the Lieutenant General
desired to know, if we intended to take off the Restriction in our Letter, which was in these Words
till we meet", or whether we did leave him to
provide for himself. After Consultation with the
Committee of Nottingham, they agreed with him for Two
Thousand Five Hundred Pounds for this County for a
Week, which ends on Wednesday next. We beseech
your Lordships to take speedily into your Consideration how these great Inconveniencies may be remedied, and the Ruin of these Parts and of this
wasted County may be prevented.
Nott. Jan. 2d, 1645, at One in the Morning.
"Your Lordships humble Servants,
Their Letters to the Scots, that the Cloaths, &c. are arrived for their Army; and desiring a Meeting with them, to conser.
"1. My Lords and Gentlemen,
"The Convoy is come this Night hither. We have
conferred with Lieutenant Colonel Urrey; and because we desire the Money and Cloaths may come
with all Speed to you, and lest the breaking of the
Frost should make the Ways very ill for Carriages,
we have made Use of the same which came from
London to come to Nottingham; but, by reason of
the Orders given to their Convoy of Dragoons for
their speedy Return to London, we cannot send them
to your Quarters; we have therefore sent to the
Committee at Nottingham, to provide Twelve Carriages, to be ready at Nottingham on Monday Morning, to meet the Money and Provisions there, and
to bring them to you. We desire you to appoint
your Commissary to meet them at Nottingham, to
give Mr. Squire (who is sent down by the Committee at Gouldsmithes Hall) your Acquittance and
Discharge for the Receipt of these Particulars, which
are according to this Note inclosed. And, if you
please, we will meet you at Nottingham, which we
suppose the most convenient Place, to advise for the
carrying on the Service intrusted with by both Kingdoms. The Time we leave to you, as may best suit
with your own Occasions.
Grantham, Dec. 26, 1645.
"and humble Servants."
Gen. Lesley's Answer.
"2. Right Honnorable,
"I have received yours of the 26 of this Instant;
and shall, according to your Desire, forthwith dispatch our Commissary to attend our Carriages at
Nottingham. I am sorry there are none of the Committee of the Parliament here for the present to meete
with your Lordships; but, if it may please you,
I doe intend to waite upon you at Nottingham Tuesday next, where I shall bee ready to contribute my
best Endeavors, in adviseing what is fittest to bee
done in carrying on the present Service. I am
"Your Lordships humble Servaunt,
Letter from the Committee to him, to delay his Assessments on the Counties till they have a Meeting, as Supplies are arrived.
"We have this Day received a Petition from the
County of Nottingham, expressing their great and
heavy Sufferings, and their Desire of speedy Remedy, to prevent their Ruin. In Discharge of the
Trust reposed in us, we shall do our utmost Endeavours for them; and know not a more ready Way
than by our speedy Conferring with you. We therefore desire you to meet us on Thursday Night next at
Nottingham. These Motives do engage you and us
to lose no Time; and will, we know, excuse our appointing this Day before we hear farther from you.
We hear, the last Week's Assessment on the Counties
of Nottingham and Darby for your Army do end
To-morrow; and we most earnestly desire, that no
farther Assessments may be made for your Forces till
we have met, considering the Miseries of those Counties, (fn. *) which are utterly exhausted; and that Cloaths
and Fifteen Thousand Pounds Sterling in Money
are come to you from the Parliament; and you will
assuredly find our complying to provide Necessaries for
you, that your Friends may have Subsistence, and
the Counties no Cause to complain.
Grantham, 30 Dec. 1645.
"Your humble Servants,
Another, desiring to know what Authority he is invested with, to confer with them.
"4. Nottingham; 2 January, 1645.
"Whereas we are appointed by both Houses of Parliament, to advise and debate and conclude with our
Brethren of Scotland, or such as shall be authorized
by them thereunto, and, by joint Advice with them,
to put in Execution all such Matters and Things
concerning the Well-ordering, Directing, and Disposal of the Forces brought in and employed by
them for their Assistance; and have received a Letter from you, wherein it is expressed, "That there
is no Committee of the Parliament of Scotland now
residing with your Army;" we therefore desire to
know what Authority to join with us is given unto
(fn. *) you from the Parliament of Scotland, that accordingly we may apply ourselves in Prosecution of
those Commands which we have received.
"Signed, in the Name, and by the Warrant, of the Committee of both Houses
of the Parliament of England.
Gen. Lesley's Answer, that he expects Commissioners from Scotland, who will be authorized to treat with them.
"5. Nottingham, January 2, 1646.
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"Since that your Lordships are appointed by the
Honnorable Houses of the Parliament of England to
conclude with such as shal bee authorised from the
Parliament of Scotland, to order all Matters concerning the reduceing of the Towne of Newarke to the
Obedience of King and Parliament; I daily expect
that there shall bee Commissioners sent expresse from
the Parliament of Scotland to attend your Lordships
accordingly: I, in the meane Tyme, as Comaunder
of this Army, am most willing to concurre with your
Lordships in all Things that may bee thought necessary to conduce to the advanceing and accomplishing the Worke in Hand, provideing sufficient
Maintenance may bee given for Horse and Men.
"Your Lordships Servaunt,
Proposal from the Committee, for Allowing 10,000£. per Month for the Scots Army, in Lieu of Free Quarter.
|6. The Foot, being 3600, at 4d. per Diem,
|For Seven Days is
|The Officers of the Foot of Eight Regiments, at Two Parts Pay, shall amount Weekly to the Sum of
|The Horsemen, being reckoned to 4000, at 18 d. per Diem, is Part of their Pay, and for the Week,
|The Officers of the Horse at 2 Parts Pay per Diem, to the Sum of
|And for the Week to the Sum of
|The Officers of the Staff with the Train of Artillery, their Weekly Maintenance will amount to the Sum of
|Officers of Horse,
|Staff and Train,
"7. Nottingham, 2 January, 1645.
|Oats, a Quarter,
|Hay, per Stone,
|Pease and Beans, per Strike,
|Straw, per Thrave,
|Beef, per Pound,
|Mutton, Lamb, Veal, per Pound,
|Pork, per Pound,
|Bread, per Pound,
|Cheese, per Pound,
|Butter, per Pound,
|Oatmeal, per Strike,
|Milk and Beer, per Gallon,
"We do offer to provide for your Army, for Horse,
Foot, Officers of the Staff, and Train of Artillery,
the Sum of Ten Thousand Pounds, for Twentyeight Days, to begin from Wednesday last past; a
Third Part to be paid in Money, the other Two
Third Parts in Provisions, according to the Rates
abovementioned, which shall be brought into your
Quarters Weekly. We can give no Answer to the
Numbers of the Soldiers, until, with your Consent,
Musters of them shall be taken by such as we shall
appoint; but, when we have taken Musters, we shall
use our best Endeavours that Subsistence be provided for them according to their Numbers.
"Signed, in the Name, and by the Warrant,
of the Committee of both Houses of the
Parliament of England.
Gen. Lesley's Answer to it.
"8. Nottingham, Januarii 2, 1646.
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"I understand your Lordships are only willing to
give 10,000£. for 28 Dayes, for the Maintenance
of our Army, which will not amount to the Halfe
of what may make us subsist; the Horsemen being allotted 18 d. per Diem, the Foote Souldier
4 d. and the Officers Two Parts of his full Meanes,
which is impossible for me to condiscend unto;
wherefore I shall humbly desire your Lordships to
bee pleased to give Orders for sufficient Maintenance,
while as wee heare farther from the Committee of
both Kingdomes; in doeing whereof, you shall further oblige me and those under my Comaund to undergoe any Thing that may best conduce to the
Good of the Publique Service.
"Your Lordships humble Servaunt,
Paper from the Scots Commissioners, concerning the Answers to the King's Letter.
"Die Lunæ, 5 Januarii, 1645.
"At the Committee of both Kingdoms, at Derby
"Ordered, That the Paper given in by the Scotts
Commissioners, concerning the Answer to the King's
Letter, be reported to both Houses.
"Secretary to the same Committee."
"According to an Order of both Houses, your Lordships did, upon Saterday at Night, communicate unto
us their Answere to the King's Letters, in Referrence to our Concurrence; and, upon Perusall thereof, wee have thought fitt to desire it may bee considered, whether soe full and expresse a charging of
His Majesty, as is contayned in the Second Paragraph, doth conduce to the intended Pacification;
and whether it may not, contrary to the Intentions
of both Kingdomes, probably bee interpreted to a
further End then to declyne a personall Treaty.
"Some Expressions wee conceive may, upon a Second Consideration, bee made more distinct and cleere,
wherein wee are ready to concurre with your Lordships. One Thing there is, very materiall to us,
which wee desire; insteed of these Words in the
Third Sextion ["Your Majesty may please to remember, that, in our last Letter, we did declare,
that Propositions from both Kingdoms were speedily
to be presented to Your Majesty; which, being assented unto by Your Majesty, will be the only Means
whereby You can give Satisfaction and Security to
Your Kingdoms"]; because the Words, as they now
stand, doe imply not only that the Parliaments of
the Two Kingdomes will receive noe Propositions
from His Majesty to bee the Foundation of a safe
and well-grounded Peace; but alsoe that there can
bee noe Sattisfaction or Security, unlesse His Majesty
assent to every Particuler of the smalest Importance
contayned in the Propositions to bee sent from both
Kingdomes; and doth further imply, that there
shal bee noe Treaty upon those Propositions; which
Things wee have noe Power to declare, as is well
knowne to the Honnorable Houses.
5 Dec. 1645.
"By Comaund of the Commissioners for
the Parliament of Scotland.
House adjourned till 10a cras.