House of Lords Journal Volume 8
12 August 1646

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 8: 12 August 1646', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 8: 1645-1647 (1767-1830), pp. 460-463. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=34086 Date accessed: 22 September 2014.


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DIE Mercurii, 12 die Augusti.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Ash.

Comes Manchester, Speaker.

Comes Kent.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Warwicke.
Comes Lyncolne.
Comes Essex.
Comes Suffolke.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Midd.
Comes Northumb.
Comes Nottingham.
Ds. North.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Grey.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Robertes.
Ds. Maynard.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Hunsdon.
Ds. Berkley.

L. Lovelace released from his Restraint.

Ordered, That the Lord Lovelace is released from his Engagement, upon his Honour given to this House, for his not going out of the Line of Communication.

Answer from the King to the Propositions for Peace.

This Day the Earl of Pembrooke and the Earl of Suffolke gave the House an Account of the delivering the Propositions for a safe and well-grounded Peace to the King, with His Majesty's Answer.

(Here enter it.)

The several Papers were read.

Letter from the Scots Commissioners.

The Speaker acquainted the House with a Letter which he had received from the Scotts Commissioners; which was read, and a Paper inclosed therein.

(Here enter them.)

Commissioners who went to the King thanked;

The Earl of Pembrooke further declared, the great Affection and Civility which the Scotts shewed to our Commissioners at Newcastle:

Hereupon this House gave Thanks to the Earls of Pembrooke and Suffolke, for their Pains and Care in this Service.

And it was moved, "That some Way may be thought how to give the Scotts Thanks, for their Affection and fair Carriage in this Business."

Ordered, That the King's Letter, and the Letter from the Scotts, be communicated to the House of Commons, at a Conference.

Committee to prepare Heads for a Conference about those Businesses.

And it (fn. *) is referred to the E. of Northumb. Com. Sarum, Com. Essex, Com. Pembrooke, Com. Suffolke, Com. Lyncolne, L. Viscount Say & Seale, L. Wharton, and L. Robertes, (fn. †) to draw up what is fit to say, at this Conference, to the House of Commons, upon these Letters; and to report the same to this House.

The Power of the abovesaid Committee is,

"To express the Sense of this House touching these Particulars:

"1. To make Acknowledgement of the Kindness and brotherly Affection of the Scotts.

"2. To take Care for providing of Money for their Satisfaction.

"3. To declare our Trouble for the dispersing of any Pamphlets against the Scotts, and to prevent the like in the future.

"4. To express the Sense of the House of Lords, that Care be taken that Satisfaction be given in that Particular; that such Persons may be in Command of Forces in this Kingdom as shall pursue the End of the Covenant, and endeavour the Public Good and Interest of both Kingdoms.

"5. That a Committee of both Houses be appointed touching the last Particular in the Scotts Paper, to consider of the same, and to make Report to both Houses respectively."

Preachers at the next Fast.

Ordered, That Mr. Valentine and Mr. Cawdry are appointed to preach before the Lords, the next Fastday, at the Abbey Church.

L. Campden to take the Covenant.

Ordered, That the Earl of Kent and the Earl of Sarum do tender the Covenant to the Lord Viscount Campden.

Ihonston, a Pass.

Ordered, That Richard Ihonston shall have a Pass, to go to Newcastle.

Harris released.

Ordered, That Harris shall be released of his Imprisonment he lies under by Order of this House.

E. of Portland, a Pass.

Ordered, That the Earl of Portland shall have a Pass, to go about his Occasions any where within the Parliament's Quarters.

Message to the H. C. for a Conference about the King's Answer to the Propositions, and a Letter from the Scots Commissioners.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Doctor Aylett and Doctor Heath:

To desire (fn. *) a Conference, in the Painted Chamber, at Ten To-morrow Morning, concerning the King's (fn. *) Answer to the Propositions, and concerning a Letter received from the Scotts Commissioners.

Lady Delaval, &c. a Pass to France.

Ordered, That the Lady De la Vall shall have a Pass, to go into France, and to return into England; and Mrs. Suzan Fanshaw to keep her Company, and Two Women Servants and Two Men.

Sir S. Fanshaw, ditto.

Ordered, That Sir Symon Fanshaw shall have a Pass, to go into France, for a Month's Time; he putting in first Security to return again, and not to do any Thing prejudicial to the Parliament.

Committeefor the Conference about the King's Answer, and the Scots Letter.

The Lord Wharton reported the Matter of the Conference with the House of Commons, drawn up by the Committee; which was read, and approved of by the House in every particular Branch, wherein the Concurrence of the House of Commons is to be desired.

(Here enter it.)

Then the House named the Committee mentioned in the Report; videlicet,

Comes Northumb.
Comes Essex.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Warwicke.
Comes Suffolke.
Comes Manchester.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Robertes.

The King's Answer to the Propositions for Peace.

"CHARLES R.

"The Propositions tendered to His Majesty by the Commissioners from the Lords and Commons assembled in the Parliament of England at Westm'r, and the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland, (to which the Houses of Parliament have taken Twice so many Months for Deliberation as they have assigned Days for His Majesty's Answer) do import so great Alterations in Government, both in the Church and Kingdom, as is very difficult to return a particular and positive Answer before a full Debate, wherein these Propositions and the necessary Explanations, true Sense and Reasons thereof, be rightly weighed and understood; and that His Majesty (upon a full View of the whole Propositions) may know what is lest, as well as what is taken away and changed: In all which He finds (upon Discourse with the said Commissioners) that they are so bound up from any Capacity either to give Reasons for the Demands they bring, or to give Ear to such Desires as His Majesty is to propound, as it is impossible for Him to give such a present Judgement of, and Answer to, these Propositions, whereby He can Answer to God that a safe and well-grounded Peace will ensue; which is evident to all the World can never be, unless the just Power of the Crown, as well as the Freedom and Propriety of the Subject, with the just Liberty and Privileges of Parliament, be likewise settled: To which End, His Majesty desires and proposeth to come to London, or any of His Houses thereabouts, upon the Public Faith and Security of the Two Houses of His Parliament and the Scotts Commissioners, that He shall be there with Freedom, Honour, and Safety, where, by His Personal Presence, He may not only raise a mutual Confidence betwixt Him and His People, but also have these Doubts cleared, and these Difficulties explained unto Him, which He now conceives to be destructive to His just Regal Power, if He should give a full Consent to these Propositions as they now stand; as likewise that He might make known to them such His reasonable Demands as He is most assured will be very much conduceable to that happy Peace which all good Men desire and pray for, by the settling of Religion, the just Privileges of Parliament, with the Freedom and Propriety of the Subject: And His Majesty assures them, that, as He can never condescend to what is absolutely destructive to that just Power which by the Laws of God and the Land He is born unto, so He will chearfully grant and give His Assent unto all such Bills (at the Desires of His Two Houses), or reasonable Demands, for Scotland, which shall be really for the Good and Peace of His People, not having a Regard to His own Particular, much less of any-body's else, in respect of the Happiness of these Kingdoms: Wherefore His Majesty conjures them, as Christians, as Subjects, and as Men who desire to leave a good Name behind them, that they will so receive and make use of this Answer, that all Issues of Blood may be stopped, and these unhappy Distractions peaceably settled.

"At Newcastle, the 1st of August, 1646.

"To the Speaker of the House of Peers pro Tempore, &c.

"CHARLES R.

"Upon Assurance of a happy Agreement, His Majesty will immediately send for the Prince His Son; absolutely answering for his perfect Obedience."

Letter from the Scots Commissioners, with the following Paper.

"For the Right Honnorable the Speaker of the House of Peeres pro Tempore.

"Right Honnorable,

"The Commissioners of the Kingdome of Scotland, which did attend His Majesty with the Propositions of Peace, being now retourned; accordinge to our Instructions, wee have sent you this enclosed, which wee desire your Lordship to communicate to the Honnorable Houses, when their Commissioners sent to His Majesty shall make Report of their Proceedings. And wee remaine

Worcester House, 11 Aug. 1646.

Your Lordships humble Servaunts,

"Loudoun. W. Argyll.

Lauderdaill.

W. Jhonston.

Hew Kennedy.

Ro. Barclay.

Paper from them, complaining of the Calumnies against the Scots in Printed Books, &c.;—that theywill giveup their Garrisons in England, and withdraw their Forces, on Satisfaction being made them;—asking Aid against the Irish;—and for obtaining an Answer from the King to the Propositions:

"The same Principles of brotherly Assection, which did induce both Kingdomes to a Conjunction of their Councells and Forces in this Cause, move us at this Tyme to apply ourselves to the most reall and effectuall Wayes which tend to a speedy Conclusion and amicable Partinge, and to the Prevention of Misunderstandinge betweene the Kingdomes in any of these Things, which peradventure our common Enemyes looke upon with much Joy, as Occasions of Differences: For this End, wee have not taken Notice of the many base Calumnyes and execrable Aspersions cast upon the Kingdome of Scotland, in printed Pamphletts and otherwise; expecting, from the Justice and Wisdome of the Honnorable Houses, that they will of themselves take such Course for the Vindication of our Nation and Army, as the Estates of Scotland have shewed themselves ready to doe for them in the like Cases. Upon the Invitation of both Houses, the Kingdome of Scotland did cheerfully undertake, and hath faithfully mannaged, their Assistance to this Kingdome, in Pursuance of the Ends exprest in the Covenant; and the Forces of the common Enemy being (by the Blessinge of God upon the joynt Endeavors of both Kingdomes) now broken and subdued, a Foundation beinge alsoe layd, and some good Progresse made, in the Reformation of Religion, which wee trust the Honnorable Houses will, accordinge (fn. *) to the Covenant, sincerly, really, and constantly prosecute till it bee perfected; that wee may manifest to the Consciences of our Brethren, and to all the World how farre it is, and ever was, from the Thoughts and Intentions of the Kingdome of Scotland to make Use of their Army in this Kingdome to any other Ends besides those exprest in the Covenant, and how much they desire the preserving and perpetuating of Peace and Amity betweene the Kingdomes, and the easinge of the Burdens and Pressures of this Nation; wee doe in their Name declare, That they are willinge forthwith to surrender the Garrisons possessed by them in this Kingdome (which they did keepe for noe other End but the Safety and Security of their Forces), and without Delay to recall their Army; reasonable Sattisfaction beinge given for their Paines, Hazards, Charges, and Sufferings, whereof a competent Proportion to bee presently paid to the Army before their Disbandinge, and Security to bee given for the Remainder at such Tymes hereafter as shall bee mutually agreed on.

"If any Forces shal bee kept on Foote in either Kingdome, wee desire that they bee put under the Commaund of such Persons as are knowne to bee zealous for Reformation and Uniformity in Religion, and most tender of the Peace of the Kingdomes, and against whome neither of the Kingdomes may have any just Grounds of Jealousy.

"And whereas the Kingdome of Scotland hath bin invaded, and is still infested, by Forces from Ireland; it is expected that the Honnorable Houses, according to the large Treaty, will give such Assistance and Supply to the Kingdome of Scotland, as may speedily reduce those Rebells to Obedience.

"And to the End there may in all Things bee a good Understanding betweene the Kingdomes, wee further propose, That whereas Propositions for a safe and well-grounded Peace have bin lately sent to the Kinge in the Name of both Kingdomes, and, for obtayninge His Majesty's Consent thereunto, the uttmost Endeavors of the Kingdome of Scotland have not beene wantinge, as may appeare by the many Addresses, Petitions, and Sollicitations to that End, from the Army, the Lords of His Majesty's Privy Councell, the Committees of Estates, and the Generall Assembly of the Church, the Successe whereof hath not answered our Wishes and Hopes; His Majesty (to our unspeakeable Greife) not haveing yet agreed to the Propositions: Wee desire that the Honnorable Houses may bee pleased to take such Course as, by joynt Advise of both Kingdomes, ingaged in the same Cause, labouring under the same Dangers, and ayminge at the same Ends, wee may consult and resolve what is next to bee done for the Peace and Safety of these Kingdomes, both in relation to His Majesty, and of each Kingdome to the other; beinge confident that the Result of our joynt Consultations will bee such as shall provide for the present and future Security of the Kingdomes, and strengthen their Union betweene themselves.

"By Commaund of the Commissioners for the Parliament of Scotland.

"Jo. Cheislie."

Commissioners who went to the King with the Propositions, Account of their Proceedins.

"The Time of our Arrival at Newcastle being Thursday the 23th of the last Month, about Nine of the Clock in the Forenoon;

"Immediately upon our coming thither (because we would lose no Time), we desired the Lord Chancellor of Scotland and the Marquis of Argill (who were joint Commissioners with us) to move the King, that He would be pleased to appoint a Time when we might attend Him, with the Propositions which we had brought from the Parliament.

"And they, going to the King, brought us back Word, that His Pleasure was, we should attend Him the next Day, at Two in the Afternoon; which accordingly we did.

"May it please Your Majesty,

"We do humbly present to Your Majesty these Propositions, agreed upon and passed by the Two Houses of the Parliament of England, and Commissioners of the Kingdom of Scotland.

"And we are commanded humbly to desire Your Majesty's positive Answer and Consent thereunto.

"The Earl of Pembrooke then, after a short Declaration of what we had in Command, desired the Propositions might be read; which the King assenting unto, was accordingly done.

"But, a little while after they were begun to be read, He demanded of us, "Whether we had any Power to treat or debate upon them, or that He might ask us any Questions for the explaining of them?"

"We answered, "We had no such Power."

"Then, "said He, Your Business is but to bring them; and a good honest Trumpeter might have done as much, but for the Honour of it."

"The Propositions being read through, and delivered unto Him, we again, as at the first, demanded His positive Answer and Consent unto them.

"The Commissioners of Scotland seconded the same, in the Behalf of that Kingdom.

"The King answered, "He was sure we could not expect a present Answer from Him in a Business of that Consequence."

"This being done upon the Friday, and we having heard nothing from Him Saturday or Sunday; the Monday following we made our Address unto Him as before.

"And, being appointed to attend Him on Tuesday, came unto Him accordingly, and put Him in Mind of our former Desires, of a positive Answer and Consent to the Propositions; alledging, we had but little Time to stay there.

"He told us, "He knew our Time limited, and against that Time would prepare His Answer."

"But no Answer being given the next Day, or the Day following; Thursday in the Afternoon we desired those Two Lords to move Him again for our Dispatch, which on Friday Morning they did; and told us, "The King would have put it off till Saturday Night; but they had prevailed with Him to grant Saturday Morning; yet, if we thought for the more Surety to go, they would go with us that Evening."

"Which being resolved, we went unto Him, and humbly craved His Answer and Consent as before.

"Then He told us, "He would give us His Answer the next Morning betwixt Ten and Eleven of the Clock."

"Accordingly, on Saturday Morning, we attended, and humbly craved His positive Answer and Consent to the Propositions, as we had formerly done; the Earl of Pembrooke humbly beseeching Him to consider with Himself the dangerous Consequence that would follow, to Himself, His Kingdoms, and Posterity, if He should not now do it.

"Then He told us, "He had drawn up His Answer in Writing; which (after He had caused it to be read) He offered to deliver unto us."

"But we, conceiving it not to be satisfactory (after some private Consultation amongst ourselves), came unto Him, and desired to be excused; pressing Him to a positive Answer and Consent; and telling Him, "We must take the Boldness to continue so doing till the last Period of our Time; and therefore prayed Him to give us Admittance again before our Departure."

"He asked "When?"

"We answered, "That Afternoon, if He so pleased."

"He said, "That could not be; for He had other Business to do."

"So the next Morning was appointed; and we accordingly came unto Him on the Lord's-day, before Prayer, and pressed Him, as we had done before, with Importunity.

"But He told us, "He could not give us any other Answer than what He had set down in Writing, and tendered unto us before;" which He caused again to be read, urging us with much Importunity to receive it.

"We thereupon craving Leave to withdraw, and considering with ourselves that we had used all the Means we could for the obtaining of a positive Answer and Consent, and that no other Answer could be gotten but that which He had now the Second Time offered to us in Writing; we returned back, and spake these Words; (videlicet), "We receive this Paper now offered by Your Majesty;

"With this humble Protestation,

"That it is without our Approbation or Consent as to the taking of it for an Answer; and that it shall be no Engagement to us the Commissioners in any kind whatsoever."

Thanks to the Scots, for their Conduct to them;

"Being informed by the Commissioners of the fair and cordial Carriage of our Brethren of Scotland during the Time of their being at Newcastle, and of their earnest Endeavours in promoting of the Propositions; and having received from the Commissioners of Scotland the Paper now read: The Lords think fit to observe the real Expressions of the Faithfulness and Integrity of that Kingdom to this Kingdom, and the common Cause wherein both are so happily united; and are resolved to use all Means that may clearly evidence to the Kingdom of Scotland, and to the whole World, their good Assections to that Kingdom, and their Care to preserve inviolably the happy Union betwixt us and them, according to our Treaty, and our solemn League and Covenant.

"In the First Place, the Lords have passed this Ordinance, to prevent the Abuses of scandalous Pamphlets against that Nation and Army; and desire your Concurrence therein; (videlicet,)

Ordinance to prevent scandalous Pamphlets being published against the Scots;

"Be it Ordained, by the Lords and in Parliament assembled, That all Devisers and Printers of any scandalous Pamphlets or Papers, that shall from this present Day be made or printed, against the Kingdom of Scotland, or their Army residing in the Kingdom of England, shall be punished in a Parliamentary Way, according to their Demerits.

Answer to the other Particulars in the Scots Paper.

"As to that of their Delivery of the Garrisons and withdrawing of their Army, reasonable Satisfaction being given for their Pains and Hazard, Part in Hand, and Part hereafter upon Security as shall be agreed upon; the Lords do think it fit that speedy Satisfaction be given them therein.

"As to that of the Forces to be kept in each Kingdom; the Lords are resolved to employ such Persons in this Kingdom as are faithful to the Ends contained in the Covenant, and the Peace of both Kingdoms.

"As to that concerning the assisting of the Kingdom of Scotland against the Rebels of Ireland which infest them; the Lords think fit to observe the large Treaty in that Particular as is desired, and desire your Concurrence therein.

"As to the last Part, concerning what is next to be done for the Peace and Good of both Kingdoms, in relation to the King and of each Kingdom to the other; the Lords think fit, that a Committee of both Houses be appointed to consider of the Ways, and make Report to both Houses accordingly."

Footnotes

* Deest in Originali.
Bis in Originali.
* Deest in Originali.
* Bis in Originali.