House of Lords Journal Volume 8
16 October 1646

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 8: 16 October 1646', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 8: 1645-1647 (1767-1830), pp. 529-531. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=34118 Date accessed: 01 September 2014.


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DIE Veneris, 16 die Octobris.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Sallawey.

Comes Manchester, Speaker.

Comes Northumb.
Comes Kent.
Comes Midd.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Denbigh.
Comes Suffolke.
Comes Lyncoln.
Comes Warwicke.
Comes Sarum.
Ds. Grey.
Ds. Robertes.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. North.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Maynard.
Ds. Hunsden.
Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Wharton.

Lymbrey and Langham.

Ordered, That Lymbrey, &c. shall have a Copy of Alderman Langham's Petition, and return an Answer to this House this Day Fortnight; in the mean Time all Proceedings to be staid.

The Earl of Sarum reported a Paper from the Committee of the Admiralty and Cinque Ports; which was read, videlicet,

Swanley to be Admiral of the Irish Fleet, and to command The Lion.

Die Jovis, 15 Die Octobris, 1646.

By the Committee of Lords and Commons for the Admiralty and Cinque Ports.

"Whereas the Ship Lyon, employed in the last Year's Expedition, under the Command of Captain Rob'rt Moulton, as Admiral of the Irish Seas, is now come into Portsmouth, and is near to return to her former Station, as Admiral of the Irish Fleet, for this Winter's Expedition; and whereas Captain Richard Swanley, being employed in that Command in Summer 1645, was suspended therefrom until he had given Satisfaction to some Matters objected against him; upon a full Hearing whereof before this Committee, he was clearly acquitted therefrom, there appearing no Cause to repute him less capable to be intrusted and employed in the Parliament's Service than before; and for that this Committee conceives his Reputation will be best repaired by a Restitution of him to that Command: It is therefore recommended from this Committee, to both Houses of Parliament, that the said Captain Swanley may be by them approved of, to be Captain of The Lyon, and Admiral of the Irish Seas, for this Winter's Expedition.

"W. Jessop, Secretary."

Ordered, That this House approves that Captain Richard Swanley be employed as Admiral of the Irish Fleet, as is expressed in this Report; and the Concurrence of the House of Commons to be desired herein.

No Forces to be disbanded but by Order of both Houses.

Resolved, That such Forces as are raised by Ordinance of both Houses of Parliament cannot be disbanded by any Order of either House, without Order of both Houses of Parliament.

Letter to be wrote to Sir T. Fairfax about it.

Ordered, That this Vote be sent to Sir Thomas Fairefax, inclosed in a Letter from the Speaker of this House; and to let him know, that this House expects he should conform to the Contents of this Vote, when any Thing of this Nature comes to be agitated by him.

Votes that the Letters from the E. of Ormond and Council of Ireland to the King, and Lord Mayor of London, shall not be sent them.

Next, the House took into Consideration, whether to agree with the House of Commons in the Votes brought Yesterday from the House of Commons, concerning sending the Earl of Ormond's Letter to the King, and about the Delivery of the Earl of Ormond's Letter to the City of London.

The First Vote was read, as follows:

"The Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament do Declare, That they will not admit of the sending of this Letter from the Earl of Ormond and others of the Council at Dublyn to the King."

And it being put to the Question, "Whether to agree with the House of Commons in this Vote?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

The other Vote was read, as follows:

"The Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament do Declare, That they will not admit of the Delivery of this Letter from the Earl of Ormond and others of the Council at Dublyn, to the Lord Mayor of the City of London."

And it being put to the Question, "Whether to agree with the House of Commons in this Vote?"

And the Votes were even, so nothing could be Resolved at this Time.

Report of the Conference about the Ordinance concerning the Commissioners of the Great Seal.

Next, the Speaker reported the late Conference with the House of Commons, which was to this Effect:

"That whereas their Lordships sent down to them an Ordinance concerning Commissioners of the Great Seal of England, wherein they have thought fit to make some Alterations and Amendments; which they offer to their Lordships Consideration, and do desire Concurrence therein, with those Alterations and Amendments and Additions."

The House taking these Additions and Alterations into Consideration;

The Question was put, "Whether to adhere to the Four Names formerly nominated by this House, and sent down to the House of Commons, and to add these Three Names brought up from the House of Commons to be Commissioners of the Great Seal of England?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Next, the First Proviso was read, in hæc verba; (videlicet,)

"Provided always, and be it hereby Ordained, That in case the said Persons, or any of them, before named to be Commissioners, shall hereafter be called or appointed Assistants in Parliament to the House of Peers, that then the Authority or Power hereby given to him or them so called to be such Assistants as aforesaid shall wholly cease and be void; any Thing in this Ordinance to the contrary notwithstanding."

And the Question being put, "Whether to agree with the House of Commons in this Proviso."

It was Resolved in the Negative, nemine contradiconte.

Next, the Second Proviso was read; videlicet,

"Provided also and it is hereby Declared and Ordained, That notwithstanding any Thing in this Ordinance, yet the Power for the nominating and appointing Justices of Peace in any Counties or Places within this Kingdom or Dominion of Wales, as also the Power of presenting Ministers to any Benefice or Living heretofore in the Gift, or belonging to the Gift or Dispose, of the Lord Keeper of the Great Seal of England for the Time being, shall be and continue in the Power of both Houses of Parliament; and that the said Commissioners shall not, without Consent of both the said Houses, appoint any Justices of Peace, or confer any Benefice belonging to the Gift of the said Lord Keeper or Chancellor, without such Assent as aforesaid."

And the Question being put, "Whether to agree with the House of Commons in this Proviso?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Another Conference to be had about it.

Ordered, To have a present Conference with the House of Commons, and to give Reasons to the House of Commons concerning this Business.

Committee to prepare Heads for it.

These Lords following were appointed to draw up Reasons for the Conference with the House of Commons:

Comes Lyncolne.
Comes Denbigh.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Robertes.

Message from the H. C. for a Conference about printing some Papers of the Scots Commissioners.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Pye Knight, &c.

To desire a Conference, so soon as it may stand with their Lordships Conveniency, touching the printing of some Papers containing Speeches of the Scotts Commissioners at the Conference with the Committees of both Houses.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Message to the H. C. about it; and the Ordinance for Commissioners of the Great Seal.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:

To let them know, that this House will give a Conference presently, in the Painted Chamber, touching the Papers of the Scotch printed; and that, at the same Conference, their (fn. *) Lordships may offer to them somewhat concerning the Ordinance touching the Commissioners of the Great Seal.

Sir R. Shirley to have his Plate out of the Court of Wards.

Upon reading the Petition of Sir Rob't Shirly: It is Ordered, That Mr. Hugh Awdley shall deliver to him his Plate out of the Court of Wards and Liveries; it being there deposited, for safe Custody only, Four Years ago.

Fathers to be quieted in the Possession of the Parsonage of Stoke Climesland.

Upon reading the Petition of John Fathers Clerk; shewing, "The Houses of Parliament, by Ordinance, presented him to the Parsonage of Stoke Climseland, in Cornwall; he is kept out of Possession by one Pyke."

It is Ordered, That an Order shall be sent to the Sheriff of Cornwall, to put him into quiet Possession, according to the general Ordinance of Parliament, concerning quieting of Possessions.

Drew to be instituted to Bulwick.

Ordered, That Doctor Heath shall give Institution and Induction to Mr. Tho. Drew, to the Parsonage of Bulwick, in the County of North'ton; presented thereunto by Mr. Moses Tryon the Patron, with a salvo Jure cujuscunque.

Answer from the H. C.

Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page return with this Answer:

That the House of Commons will give their Lordships a present Conference, as is desired, concerning both the Particulars.

Letter to Sir T. Fairfax, not to disband Forces without Order of both Houses.

Ordered, That the Earl of Lyncolne and the Lord Willoughby do draw up a Letter, to be sent to Sir Tho. Fairefax, and present the same to this House.

The Lord Willoughby reported the Draught of the said Letter.

Which being read;

The Question was put, "Whether to agree to this Draught of the Letter as it is brought in, and to have it sent to Sir Thomas Fairefax?"

(Here enter it.)

And it was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Protest against it.

These Lords following, before the putting of this Question, desired their Right of Dissent, if this Question were carried against their Votes; which was granted: And accordingly, that it might appear that they dissented thereunto they caused their Names to be underwritten as followeth, in Testimony of their said Dissent:

Comes Denbigh.
Comes Kent.
Comes Nottingham:
Comes Manchester.
Ds. Wharton.

Ald. Fowkes and the E. I. Co.

Ordered, That the Cause between Alderman Foukes and the India Company shall be put off till Wednesday next, at Ten of the Clock in the Morning.

Heads for the Conference about the Ordinance for the Commissioners of the Great Seal.

The Lord Robertes reported from the Committee the Matter of the next Conference to be with the House of Commons; which was read, and approved of, (videlicet,)

That the Lords did send an Ordinance to the House of Commons, on the 4th of September last past, concerning the Great Seal of England, the Dispatch of which they looked upon as a Matter of Importance: That they did not hear from the House of Commons until the 14th of October Instant. The Lords find therein divers Alterations; as omitting the Names of such as they had appointed Commissioners without any Cause alledged, they being in their Lordships Judgement fit for that Employment. Yet, to shew how forward they are to dispatch this Affair, they have, with adhering to the Persons formerly named by them, added those that are desired by that House. As to the First Proviso added by that House, the Lords do not agree, there being no Cause to put such an Incapacity upon them. As to the latter Proviso, the Lords do agree. And having thus far shewed their Diligence for the concluding of this Business, they hope no further Delays will be therein; but that the Course of Justice may speedily be administered by that Seal, according to the Expectation of the Kingdom."

The House of Commons being ready for the Conference, in the Painted Chamber;

It was put to the Question, "Whether to adjourn the House during Pleasure, or not?"

And it was Resolved in the Negative.

Then

The Question was put, "Whether to adjourn the House till Tuesday next, at 10a of the Clock in the Morning?"

And it was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Letter to Sir T. Fairfax, not to disband any Forces without Order of both Houses.

SIR,

I am commanded by the House of Lords to let you know, that they have received Information of some Directions to you, for the present Reducement of the Forces of the Western Association under the Command of Major General Massey; upon which their Lordships have passed this Vote, which they have commanded me here inclosed to send to you, expecting your Conformity thereunto: And so, having no more in Command, I rest

Your humble Servant,

Westm. the 16th Oct. 1646.

E. Manchester, &c.

"For the Honourable Sir Thomas Fairefax Knight, General of the Forces raised by the Parliament. Haste. Haste. Post Haste."

Adjourn;

House adjourned till 10a Tuesday next.

Footnotes

* Origin. Lords.