House of Lords Journal Volume 5
27 March 1643

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 5: 27 March 1643', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 5: 1642-1643 (1767-1830), pp. 672-675. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=35060 Date accessed: 24 November 2014.


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DIE Lunæ, 27 Martii.

PRAYERS.

Earl of Manchester, Speaker this Day.

Reasons concerning the Propositions.

Report was this Day made, "That the Reasons touching the Two First Propositions were fit to pass, with some Alterations;" which were passed accordingly. (Here enter them.)

Message from the H. C. for the Committee to acquaint the King with them.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Gilbert Gerrard and others:

That the Commons desire that the Lords will send to the Earl of Northumberland (their Committee at Oxon), to let the King know all the Reasons touching the Two First Propositions, according as they had voted their Committees should do.

Resolved, by the Lords in Parliament,

That the Earl of Northumberland (their Committee at Oxon) is hereby required to acquaint His Majesty with all the Reasons upon the Two First Propositions.

Morrison, a Pass, with Cloaths for the King and Royal Family:

Ordered, That Andrewe Morrison, and others, shall have a Pass, to go to Oxford, with a Waggon, having Four Trunks and a Hamper with Cloaths for the King, the Prince, and Duke of Yorke; and that the said Waggon shall be searched; and after, Colonel Moore to make his Certificate accordingly, (fn. *) which, with this Order, is to be taken down by the said Andrewe Morrison, for the safe conveying the said Waggon to Oxon aforesaid.

Message to the H. C. for their Charge against the E. of Bath.

A Message to the House of Commons, by Sir Robert Rich and Mr. Page:

That the Lords are much importuned by the Earl of Bath for his Enlargement, which they are inclined unto; and therefore they desire the Commons to send up unto them what they have in Charge against him.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords Committees for the Ordinance to sequester Delinquents Estates withdrew themselves into the Prince's Lodgings.

A Message from the Commons, by Sir Walter Earle and others:

Message from thence, about the King's Officers seizing Estates.

That the Commons desire a present Conference, if it may stand with their Convenience, touching the Carriage of the King's Officers, how they seized the Estates of some Persons in the several Counties of this Kingdom.

Mr. Rushworth, a Post Warrant.

Ordered, That Mr. John Rushworth shall have a Post Warrant, from London to Oxon, and back again; he being to carry Letters to the Committee at Oxon, upon the great Affairs of the Kingdom.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference with the Commons, in the Painted Chamber, as was desired.

The Lords returning, the House was resumed again.

Ordinance for seizing Estates of Papists, &c.

And then the Lord Say, One of the Committee upon the Ordinance for the Sequestration of Delinquents Estates, reported the said Ordinance to the House, as fit to pass, with some Alterations and Amendments; which were read, and approved of in the House accordingly. (Here enter it.)

Committee to consider how to put it in Execution.

Whereupon the Lords appointed a Committee of this House, to join with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons, to consider of all Ways how, and in what Manner, the Ordinance for the seizing of Delinquents Estates may be put into Execution; and to consider of [ (fn. *) the Misdemeanors of all such as] disobey the said Ordinance:

E. Pembrooke.
E. Holland.
E. Bollingbrooke.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
L. Newenham.
L. Gray de Warr.

Their Lordships, or any Three of them, to meet when and where they please, with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons.

Message to the H. C. for a Conference about it.

A Message to the Commons, by Sir Rob't Rich and Mr. Page:

That the Lords desire a present Conference with them, in the Painted Chamber, if it may stand with their Occasions, touching the Ordinance for cessing of Delinquents; and that their Lordships have appointed a Committee of Six, to consider of the Misdemeanors of all such as shall disobey the Ordinance for the seizing of Delinquents Estates, and desire them to appoint a proportionable Number of their House; and that the Lords have likewise something to impart unto them, at the said Conference, touching the Enlargement of Sir Hugh Pollard, being now a Prisoner.

Isabel Massey versus Rolfe and his Trustees.

The Petition of Isabella Massey, Widow, was read. (Here enter it.)

Upon the reading of which Petition, being it concerned Mr. Goodwin, a Member of the House of Commons; it is Ordered, by the Lords in Parliament, That the said Mr. Goodwin shall by the said Mrs. Massey be acquainted with the said Petition, who is to return an Answer thereunto at his convenient Leisure.

Sir E. Varney, a Pass.

Ordered, That Sir Edward Varney shall have a Pass, to The Bath, for his Health's sake, with Servants, Coach and Horses.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference with the Commons, taking with them the said Ordinance, together with the Additions and Alterations which were delivered to them at the said Meeting.

The Lords returning, the House was resumed.

Reasons concerning the Cessation.

"To the King's most Excellent Majesty.

"The Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled do, with all humble Thankfulness, acknowledge Your Majesty's Favour, in the speedy Admission of their Committee to Your Royal Presence, and the Expedition of Your Exceptions to their Articles, that so they might more speedily endeavour to give Your Majesty Satisfaction; and, although they were ready to agree to the Articles of Cessation in such Manner as they expressed in their Preface, they cannot agree to the Alteration and Addition offered by Your Majesty, without great Prejudice to the Cause, and Danger to the Kingdom, whose Cause it (fn. †) is; the Reasons whereof will clearly appear in the Answer to the Particulars pressed by Your Majesty:

"1. They do deny that they have restrained any Trade, but to some few of those Places where Your Majesty's Forces are enquartered; and even now, in the Heat of War, do permit the Carriers to go into all the Parts of the Kingdom with all Sorts of Commodities, for the Use of the Subjects, except Arms, Ammunition, Money, and Bullion; but, if they should grant such a free Trade as Your Majesty desireth, to Oxford, and other Places where Your Forces remain, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to keep Arms, Ammunition, Money, and Bullion, from passing into Your Majesty's Army, without very strict and frequent Searches, which would make it so troublesome, chargeable, and dangerous to the Subjects, that, the Question being but for Twenty Days, for so few Places, the Mischiefs and Inconveniencies to the whole Kingdom would be far greater than any Advantage which that small Number of Your Subjects (whom it concerns) can have by it.

"The Case then is much otherwise than is expressed by Your Majesty's Answer; for whereas they are charged not to give the least Admission of this Liberty and Freedom of Trade during the Cessation, the Truth is, that they do grant it as fully to the Benefit of the Subject, even in Time of War; and that Your Majesty, in pressing this for the People's Good, doth therein desire that which will be very little beneficial to the Subjects, but exceeding advantageous to Your Majesty, in supplying Your Army with many Necessaries, and making Your Quarters a Staple for such Commodities as may be vented in the adjacent Counties, and so draw Money thither, whereby the Inhabitants will be better enabled, by Loans and Contributions, to support Your Majesty's Army; and, as Your Majesty's Army may receive much Advantage, and the other Army much Danger, if such Freedom should be granted to these Places, so there is no Probability that the Army raised by the Lords and Commons shall have any Return of Commodities, and other Supplies from thence, which may be useful for them; and they conceive that, in a Treaty for a Cessation, those Demands cannot be thought reasonable, which are not (fn. *) indifferent, that is equally advantageous, to both Parties.

"As they have given no Interruption to the Trade of the Kingdom, but in relation to the Supply of the contrary Army, which the Reason of War requires, so they beseech Your Majesty to consider whether Your Soldiers have not robbed the Carriers in several Parts, where there hath been no such Reason; and Your Ships taking many Ships, to the great Damage not only of particular Merchants, but of the whole Kingdom; and whether Your Majesty have not declared Your own Purpose, and endeavoured, by Your Ministers of State, to embark the Merchants Goods in Foreign Parts, which hath been in some Measure executed upon the Eastland Merchants in Denmarke, and is a Course, which will much diminish the Wealth of the Kingdom, violate the Law of Nations, make other Princes Arbiters of the Differences betwixt Your Majesty and Your People, break off the Intercourse between this and other States, and like to bring us into Quarrels and Dissentions with all the Neighbour Nations.

"2. To demand the approving of the Commanders of the Ships, is to desire the Strength of One Party to the other, before the Difference be ended, and against all Rules of Treaty: To make a Cessation at Sea, would leave the Kingdom naked to those Foreign Forces, which they have great Cause to believe have been solicited against them; and the Ports open for such Supplies of Arms and Ammunition as shall be brought from beyond the Seas: But for conveying any Number of Forces by those Means from One Part to another, they shall observe the Articles of the Cessation, by which that is restrained.

"3. As for the Expression of ["the Army raised by the Parliament"], they are contented it should be altered thus ["raised by both Houses of Parliament"], as not desiring to differ upon Words; but to give any conclusive Power in this Case to the Com mittee, upon such Differences as may arise, wherein the Houses have given no express Direction, is neither safe for the Committee to undertake, nor fit for the Two Houses to grant; yet to debate and to press the Reason of their Desires, whereby an Agreement from Your Majesty may be procured, is granted to them; and, although the Two Houses did think it most proper the Cessation should be first agreed on, and that it was unfit to treat in Blood, yet, to satisfy the World of their earnest Longing after Peace, they have given Power to the Committees to enter into the Treaty upon the Two First Propositions, notwithstanding the Cessation be not yet assented to; and, those being agreed, they hope the Foundation will be laid, not only of a Suspension, but a total Abolition of all Hostility in the Kingdom.

"4. If the Nature of War be duly considered, it must needs be acknowledged, that it is incompatible with the ordinary Rules of a peaceable Government. Your Majesty would have them commit none but according to the known Laws of the Land, whereby, they conceive, Your Majesty understands that it must be by the ordinary Process of Law; which being granted, it will follow that no Man must be committed by them, for supplying Your Majesty with Arms, Powder, and Ammunition; for, by the Law of the Land, the Subject may carry such Goods from London or any other Place to Oxford; the Soldiers must not be committed, if they run from their Colours, and refuse any Duty in the Army; no Man shall be committed for not submitting to necessary Supplies of Money: So that, if this be yielded in Your Majesty's Sense, they shall be disabled to restrain Supplies from their Enemies, and to govern and maintain their own Soldiers. It cannot be thought reasonable that, under the Disguise of a Cessation, they should admit that which will necessarily produce the Dissolving of the Army, and Destruction of the Cause.

"It seems not probable that Your Majesty doth intend that, if any be taken with Supplies for this Army, or mutinying in Your own, that such Persons shall not be committed, but according to the known Laws of the Land, that is, by Process of Law; but rather that Your Majesty will so interpret this Limitation of known Laws, that, although it lays streight Bonds upon the Two Houses, yet it leaves Your Generals as much Liberty as before; for it hath been denied (fn. *) by Your Majesty that these known Laws give any Power to the Two Houses of Parliament to raise Arms, and so consequently their Generals cannot exercise any Martial Law in those Cases; and it is not unlike but that it will be affirmed, that the Generals constituted by Your Majesty's Commission have that Power by the same known Laws; so that this Article, under the specious Shew of Liberty and Law, would altogether disable them to defend their Liberties and Laws, and would produce to Your Majesty an absolute Victory and Submission, under Pretence of a Cessation and Treaty.

"5. Being by Necessity, inevitable on their Part, inforced to a Defensive War, in this unhappy Breach between Your Majesty and them, and that they are therein warranted both by the Laws of God and Man, it must needs follow that, by the same Law, they are enabled to raise Means to support that War; and therefore, till it shall please God to incline Your Majesty to afford them such a Peace as may secure them, they cannot relinquish the Power of laying Taxes upon those who ought to join with them in that Defence, and the necessary Ways of levying those Taxes upon them in Case of Refusal; for otherwise their Army must needs be dissolved: But, if Your Majesty shall consent to disband the Armies, the Cause of the War being taken away, the Consequences will likewise be removed, and the Subject restored to the Benefit of those, which the Necessity of Arms hath in such Cases suspended.

"6. They deny any Pretence of consenting to those Alterations and Additions offered by Your Majesty; only in the Preamble they say, They have considered of those Articles, with such Alterations and Additions, unto which Articles they professed they were ready to agree, not as they were accompanied with those Alterations and Additions, but in such Manner as they expressed: As for the Clause left out in the Third Article, it implied a Freedom of Passage and Communication of Quarters, which is contrary to the Nature of a Cessation, whereby Matters should be preserved in the State they are, and neither Party have Liberty so much to advantage himself, as it is evident Your Majesty might do, if Your Forces in the North and West might join with those at Oxford, and bring those Supplies of Treasure or Arms thither, which were brought out of Holland; or at least it should be so indifferent, as to give a proportionable Advantage to the other Side, which He doth not; for the Forces under the Power of both Houses are so disposed, that they have an easy Passage from one to the other; but Your Majesty's Forces are severed the one from the other, by many large Counties, strong Passes, and competent Armies; and, if they had admitted this Clause, they had bereaved themselves of One of the greatest Advantages, and freed Your Majesty's Party of One of the greatest Inconveniences, which Your Majesty or they have in this War.

"For the Reasons alledged, they cannot agree to the Alterations and Enlargements of the Cessation propounded, or to transfer any such Power to the Committee, of treating, debating, and agreeing upon those Articles, in any other Manner than the Houses have directed; but, that a fair and speedy Passage may be opened to a secure and a happy Peace, they have enabled their Committees to treat and debate upon the Two Propositions concerning His Majesty's own Revenue, the Delivery of His Towns, Castles, Magazines, and Ships, and the Disbanding of the Armies; which being agreed upon, a present Peace and Security will follow, and the Treaty upon the other Propositions be facilitated, without Fear of Interruption by the Confusion of War, or Exasperation of either Party by the bloody Effects thereof.

"In which Treaty, the Two Houses will desire and expect nothing but what will stand with Your Majesty's Honour, and the Trust reposed in You, and is necessary for Your Majesty's good Subjects, that they may enjoy the true Religion, and their Liberties and Privileges; and that they may freely, and in a Parliamentary Way, concur with Your Majesty in those Things which may conduce to the Glory of God, the Safety and Happiness of Your Majesty and Your Posterity and People, and preventing the like miserable Effusion of English Blood for the Time to come; for the effecting whereof, their most earnest Prayers and uttermost Endeavours shall ever be faithfully and constantly employed, in Hope that God will give a Blessing thereunto."

Isabella Massey's Petition versus Mr. Rolfe and his Trustees.

"To the Right Honourable the Lords assembled in Parliament.

"The humble Petition of Isabella Massey, Widow;

"Sheweth,

"That your Petitioner cannot receive the Benefit of your Lordships Orders unto the Petitions annexed, for that Mr. Ashe Two Members of the House of Commons, and Defendants with Mr. Rolph your Petitioner's Adversary, at the Request of Rolfe, and to frustrate and delay the Cause, have stood on their Privilege this Two Years, and forbear to answer; and Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Methols, Trustees for the said Rolfe, have put in one insufficient Answer after another; neither will Rolfe examine his Witnesses, neither can your Petitioner (through the Troubles of the Times) obtain those Remedies against these Delays, which otherwise she might have by Course of Court; and your Petitioner hath discovered that, besides the Matters complained in the Petitions annexed, the said Rolfe did not only make a Lease of Forty Years, at a Pepper Corn Rent, unto Sir William Curteene (who withholds the same from your Petitioner), but also a Jointure to one Mrs. Blague, for her Life, of the Messuage, which he after most fraudulently sold unto your Petitioner's Husband, and covenanted that no such Incumbrance or Act was done which might any Way prejudice the Sale to your Petitioner and her Husband; and your Petitioner feareth that he hath used the like secret Frauds in his other Estate, and of late, contrary (fn. *) to your Lordships Orders unto the Petitions annexed, hath turned over the Profits of the Fine-office unto the said Mr. Goodwin, One of the Members of the House of Commons, for his Benefit, to the End to defraud your Petitioner and his other Creditors: That the said Rolfe, to bar your Petitioner of her Dower of certain Lands in Chelsey, purchased by her Husband, sets a-foot a long Lease, granted unto him before the Purchase of your Petitioner's Husband, which Lease he concealed at the Time of the Purchase, and encouraged your Petitioner's Husband to go on in the Purchase, and drew the Articles, and perused the Conveyance in the Behalf, and as a Friend to your Petitioner's Husband: That your Petitioner's Husband did give Fifteen Hundred Pounds to Rolfe, and Fourteen Hundred Pounds to Mr. Blague, by Rolfe's Direction, to turn over his Shop to your Petitioner's Husband; and that the said Rolfe inforced your Petitioner's Husband to abate him Seventeen Hundred Pounds, before he could come to an Accompt with him; and after, the said Rolfe, upon Accompt, acknowledged to owe to your Petitioner's Husband Four Thousand Four Hundred Pounds, but paid it not, which ruined your Petitioner's Husband, and likewise [ (fn. *) will ruin] your Petitioner, unless your Lordships by your Justice prevent it.

"Her humble Suit is, therefore, to your Lordships, that, to the End your Lordships Reference unto the Lord Keeper, and his Order to be made thereupon, may not be frustrated by any intervenient Act, that all the Profits of the Fine-office may remain in the said Office, and the said Rolfe may answer his Contempt of your Lordships Order in assigning the same to Mr. Goodwin; and that the Rents and Profits of certain Lands granted by the said Rolfe unto one Mr. Abbott, for his Indemnity, who hath not or is likely to receive any Damage, and all the Rents and Profits of the other Estate of the said Rolfe, mentioned in the Petitions annexed, may be brought into the Court of Chancery by them in whose Hands they are payable, to remain there for the Relief of your Petitioner and her Five Children, who have, for Four Years Space and more, which was ever since she hath been debarred of her said Right, been kept and maintained by the Alms of her Mother, and must, when God shall please to take her away, absolutely perish, unless your Honours be pleased to take some Order for their Relief; or otherwise that the said Rolfe may put in good Security to abide the Order of the Lord Keeper, and that the said Cause may no farther be delayed; but that the said Parties may forthwith put in sufficient and no dilatory Answers to your Petitioner's Bill.

"And your Petitioner shall ever pray, &c.

"Isabella Massey."

Adjourn.

Adjourn to 10 To-morrow.

Footnotes

* Deest in Originali.
* Bis in Originali.
Deest in Originali.
* Origin. different.
* Bis in Originali.
* Deest in Originali.