House of Lords Journal Volume 4
24 June 1641

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 4: 24 June 1641', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 4: 1629-42 (1767-1830), pp. 284-287. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=35631 Date accessed: 31 July 2014.


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DIE Jovis, videlicet, 24 die Junil.

PRAYERS.

Sutton Marsh.

Ordered, That the Cause concerning Sutton Marsh, between the Lord Phillip Herbert and the Earl of March, be heard this Day Sevennight, in the Morning, at the Bar.

Lords take the Protestation.

The Earl of Newport and the Lord Mohun took the Protestation, and subscribed it.

Abolishing the Star-chamber.

After this, the House was adjourned into a Committee during Pleasure, to debate the Bill concerning the Star-chamber and the Council Table.

The Bill was read, with the Amendments and Additions.

And, after a long and serious Debate, the House was resumed; and it is Ordered, That Justice Reeves and Justice Heath do draw up the Reasons of the Amendments and Additions, and present them to this House To-morrow Morning, and so this House to prepare for a Conference with the House of Commons.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Jo. Hotham:

Message from the H. C. to desire the Lords to continue sitting.

To desire their Lordships to sit a little longer this Morning, for they shall have Occasion to come to their Lordships with a Conference.

Answer:

Answer.

That this House is now in Debate of some weighty Business; and, before their Lordships rise, they will send Word by Messengers of their own.

Order about Mr. Smart's Business.

Upon a Petition of Peter Smarte, desiring "That some of his Witnesses in Town, which are a very great Charge unto him, may be examined;" it is Ordered, That such Witnesses whose Names are to be given in shall be examined; and that the other Side may cross-examine if they will; and these Lords following were appointed to take the said Examinations:

Comes Bath.
Comes South'ton.
Comes Warwicke.
L. Viscount Say et Seale.
Epus. London.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Bristoll.

Serjeant Whitfeild,
Serjeant Glanvile,
Ds. Mowbray.
Ds. Pagett.
Ds. North.
Ds. Brooke.
Ds. Roberts.
Ds. Pawlett.
Ds. Dunsemore.
Ds. Savill.
To write down the Examinations.

Their Lordships, or any Three of them or more, to meet when they please.

Court of York.

The King's Attorney General was heard to speak touching the Court of Yorke.

Next, a Message was sent from the House of Commons, by the Lord Craneborne:

Message from the H. C. for a Conference concerning the Affairs of both Kingdoms.

To desire a Conference, by a Committee of both Houses, concerning the great Affairs of both Kingdoms; and this to be presently, if it stand with the Conveniency of this House.

Answer to the said Message is:

Answer.

That their Lordships will give a Meeting presently, in the Painted Chamber, as is desired.

Lords to report the Conference.

Lords appointed to report the Conference:

The Lord Privy Seal.

Earl of Bristoll.

Lord Viscount Say & Seale.

Episcopus Lincolne.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the Lords returned, and the House was resumed.

To be reported P. M.

Ordered, That the Report of this Conference be made this Afternoon.

E. of Middlesex and E. of Nottingham.

Ordered, That the Cause concerning the Earl of Midd. and the Earl of Nottingham shall be heard Tomorrow Sevenninght, in the Morning, at this Bar.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Justice Foster and Justice Heath:

Message to the H. C. to sit P. M.

To let them know, that this House will sit in the Afternoon, and desire them to do the like.

Lawrence and Stephen King, for a Riot on the Estate of Sir Jo. Lucas.

Whereas Tho. Laurance and Stephen Kinge are now in the Custody of the Gentleman-usher, for or concerning a Riot committed upon the House and Grounds of Sir Jo. Lucas, Knight, which the said Laurance and Kinge utterly deny to have any Hand in, pretending they were out of the Town of Colchester at such Time as the said Riot was committed; it is Ordered, That the Mayor of the City of Colchester shall examine the Truth of this Business, and make Certificate thereof unto the House, with all convenient Speed, that thereby this House may proceed therein according to that which shall be just and right.

Armstead and Warner, concerning the St. John of Lubeck.

Ordered, That the Security that is to be given between George Warner and Robert Armestead, concerning a Ship called The St. John Baptist, of Lubecke, and now of London, according to a former Order of this House, shall be given between the Parties before the Right Honourable the Earls of Bath and Warwicke, who are to judge of the Security, and to be attended by the Recorder of London in this Business, for the settling of the same between the said Parties.

Adjourn.

Dominus Capitalis Justiciarius de Communi Banco, Locum tenens Domini Custodis Magni Sigilli, declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in horam 4m post meridiem hujus diei, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Post meridiem.

PRAYERS.

Jurisdiction of the Court of Admiralty.

Ordered, That the Cause concerning the Jurisdiction of the Court of Admiralty be heard on Wednesday Morning next, at the Bar of this House.

Busby versus Smith in Error.

Ordered, That the Writ of Error between Busby and Smith shall be argued at the Bar next Day after the next Term.

Hawes versus Kylvert, & al.

Upon hearing of the Counsel of Roger Kylvert, and others, Defendants, against Joseph Hawes, Plaintiff, in open House, at the Bar; it is Ordered, That the Civilians that be Assistants to this House, videlicet, the Master of the Rolls, Mr. Doctor Bennett, and Mr. Doctor Littleton, or any Two of them, shall take into Consideration, and afterwards certify in Writing unto this House, the true State of this Cause, together with their Opinions: First, whether in this Cause there were an Appeal in due Time, and what Prosecution thereof: Secondly, when the Defendants and Bail do not appeal, whether the Plaintiff may not obtain a Sentence upon their Default: Thirdly, when a Sentence is given, whether, by virtue of that Sentence, the Bail are not discharged where an Appeal is made in due Time; and whether they be not liable to the Judgement by the Appeal, having parted with such Goods as they had for their Caution: Fourthly, whether the Parties, upon this Caution given by the Bail for the making good of the Sentence, can be liable to make Restitution of the Goods, or the Value, before the Sentence upon the Appeal be finished and given: And that the said Referees shall have Power to call and hear the Witnesses on both Sides, and make Certificate of the whole Matter unto their Lordships.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Secretary Vane:

Message from the H. C. for renewing the Cessation of Arms for Fourteen Days.

To put their Lordships in Mind, that the Cessation of Arms with the Scotts will be expired within these Four Days: That the House of Commons, having taken the same into Consideration, incline to renew the Cessation for Fourteen Days longer after the Expiration, upon the same Terms as the former, if the Treaty lasts so long, and this House think it fit.

Hereupon it is Ordered by this House, That the Cessation of Arms with the Scotts be renewed, and continued for Fourteen Days longer after the Expiration of the last, upon the same Terms as the former, if the Treaty lasts so long.

The Answer returned to the House of Commons was:

Answer to the H. C.

That this House had agreed to the Cessation of Arms with the Scotts, as aforesaid.

Conference concerning the Ten Heads from the H. C. reported.

Next, the Lord Bishop of Lincolne reported the Conference this Morning with the House of Commons.

"The Report of Mr. Pim's Speech at the Conference.

Mr. Pym's Speech.

"He told your Lordships, he was commanded by the House of Commons to present unto your Lordships their continued Care and Endeavour for the Good of the Kingdom; that, as your Affections are united with them in One great End, to serve God, the King, and the Commonwealth, so your Counsels might be likewise jointly co-operative thereunto.

"There is but One End and One Foundation of all these Affections and Counsels; howbeit they spread themselves to many and several Branches, for they are so united and weaved Duties, which we owe to God, our King, and our Commonwealth, that we cannot duly and truly serve God, but thereby we serve our King; nor serve God and our King as we ought, without our Service to the Commonwealth.

"And as a Way to this common and general End, he was to make unto your Lordships several Propositions.

"Because they had lately found out very malignant and pestiferous Designs set on Foot, or plotted, to trouble the Peace of the Kingdom, the which though they were prevented, yet were still pursued; which is the Reason why the House of Commons do present your Lordships with these several Propositions, in Ten several Heads, which have their Branches and Subdivisions made under them.

"First Head, concerning the disbanding of the Armies:

"That is in the First Front, because it is first to be done, and to make Way for all the rest.

"Four several Branches:

"1. The House of Commons desires the Five Regiments to be first disbanded, according to the former Order agreed upon by both Houses.

"2. The Commissioners for the Scotts to be desired to retire some of their Troops from The Teez.

"3. That their Lordships would join with the House of Commons in an humble Motion unto His Majesty, to declare these Five Regiments to be disbanded, and the rest of the Army, as soon as Money may be provided, and for the Punishment of those that shall refuse to disband, if any such should be.

"4. That the Lord General should be entreated forthwith to repair to the Army, upon Saturday at the farthest, at which Time the Money will be there.

"And that the Lord Newport, Master of the Ordnance, may likewise be there, to take Care of the Ordnance, and all Things under his Charge.

"This was the First Head, and Four Sub-divisions, or Branches, under the same.

"Second Head: That His Majesty will be pleased to allow a convenient Time before His Journey into Scotland, that so the Army may be first disbanded; and that some of the important Affairs now depending in Parliament, some in both Houses, and other some in the House of Commons, may be dispatched before His Majesty's Journey.

"This Proposition he backed with these Four Reasons:

"1. The Safety of His Majesty's Person.

"2. The removing of the Jealousies of His good Subjects.

"3. The cutting off the Hopes of those, which are ill affected, and have any Design of disturbing the Peace of the Kingdom by Means of the Armies.

"4. The great Advantage in His Majesty's own Affairs and Contentment of His People, if, before His going, the Royal Assent may pass to divers Bills, concerning the Reformation of Church and State, whereof some are already sent up, others in Preparation.

"And the Bill intended for further Grant of Tonnage and Poundage, and other Customs. And that some Time may be employed to regulate the King's State and Revenue, to free them from unnecessary Burdens, and to employ them for the Good of the Common-wealth.

"All which require His Presence in Parliament.

"This was the Second Head, and Four Reasons thereof.

"Third Head: about His Majesty's Counsels.

"That His Majesty may be humbly petitioned to remove such evil Counsellors against whom there shall be any just Exceptions, and for the committing of His own Business, and the Affairs of the Kingdom, to such Counsellors and Officers as the Parliament may have Cause to confide in.

"Reasons: Because all those ill Effects we feel were produced by those ill Counsels in all the Three Fundamentals before spoken of:

"1. In Matters of Religion.

"2. In the King's private Estate.

"3. In the Good of the whole Kingdom.

"All these Three have decayed; but those of another Kind and Alloy have much prospered of late amongst us; as Matters of Monopolies, Matters of Projects and new Inventions.

"Here he told your Lordships a Tale of a Gardener, who, being demanded why the Weeds grew so fast, and the Flowers so thin, in his Ground-plot, answered, That the Weeds were the true Children, but the Flowers were but so many Slips and Bastards.

"So, saith he, it is written, That the Kings should be our Nursing Fathers, and Queens our Nursing Mothers; but we have found here of late, by reason of bad Counsellors, no Nurses, but Hirelings, of the Public State.

"These, therefore, are especially to be removed, for the reducing of the Kingdom to a better Condition and Posture.

"Howbeit this Request is by the House of Commons recommended but in general for this present, without pointing out or designing of Particulars, in Hope the King will find them out of Himself; otherwise it will cause the House of Commons to reduce this Petition to Names of Particulars.

"And therefore they desire your Lordships so to recommend it unto His Majesty, that He would put the Affairs of His own and the Kingdom into such Hands as His Majesty and the Parliament may confide in.

"This is the Third Head.

"The Fourth Head concerns the Queen's Majesty.

"Several Branches:

"1. That His Majesty will be graciously pleased, by Advice of His Parliament, to persuade the Queen to take some of the Nobility, and others of Trust, into Her Service, in such Places as are now of Her disposing.

"1. Reason: She shewed Herself ready to do any Thing for the common Good of the Kingdom; and this is of that Kind.

"2. That no Jesuit be entertained into Her Majesty's Service, nor any Priest native of any of His Majesty's Dominions.

"Reason of the First: Banished in all other Courts of Catholic Princes.
Second: Against our Laws, our native Priests should be here.

"3. That the College of Capuchins at Denmarke House may be dissolved, and the Persons sent away out of the Kingdom.

"Four Reasons hereof:

"1. Their being here is a Scandal to our Religion, and a Danger to our Peace.

"2. Disaffection to the State, manifested in Two Letters, dated 6 Maii, whereby many Slanders are cast upon the Parliament; and the good Subjects, under the Name of Puritans, are disaffected and injurious to the Queen's Person.

"And thereupon the Cardinal excited to some Design against England.

"3. The Letter of Father Phillips, wherein, by Way of Reproach unto the Parliament, he writes:

"That the Protestation taken in both Houses is like the Scottish Covenant, but somewhat worse.

"4. That divers Informations are given of great Quantity of Gold transported by these Priests.

"The Fourth Branch, concerning the Queen, is upon the especial Occasion of His Majesty's Absence, that your Lordships would join with the House of Commons to advise the King,

"That some of the Nobility, and others of Quality, with a competent Guard, may be appointed to attend the Queen, for the Security of Her Royal Person, against all Designs of the Papists, and others ill affected to the Peace of the Kingdom.

"Reason 1. To secure Her from Popish Attempts.

"2. By Watchfulness of those worthy Persons, Priests and Jesuits may be kept from the Court.

"He protested, that herein they intended nothing of Disrespect. He said, It was a blessed Thing to be kept from Temptation; and to be rid of those Flies, would gain the Queen the Love of the People, in His Majesty's Absence.

"Fifth Head.

Concerning the Prince, and the rest of the Royal Issue.

"That some Person of Public Trust, and well affected in Religion, may, by Advice of Parliament, be placed about the Prince, and may take Care of his Education, especially in Matters of Religion; and the like Care be taken of the rest of His Majesty's Children.

"Sixth Head.

Of Papists coming to the Court.

"Four Branches:

"1. Humbly desired by the Commons, who desire your Lordships to join with them in that Petition, That His Majesty would be sparing in licensing of Papists to come to the Court.

"2. That, if they come without Licence, they may be punished severely, and the Laws be put in Execution.

"3. That, if any English Woman, that is a Papist, be about the Court, she shall not reside there.

"4. That no Pension be paid to any lying beyond the Seas, which are of dangerous Condition.

"5. That English Ladies, Papists, be removed from the Court; His Majesty moved for His Assent, That the Persons of the most active Papists be so restrained, as shall be necessary for the Safety of the Kingdom, even Lords as well as others.

"Seventh Head.

Concerning the Nuncios:

"That it may be declared, by an Act of Parliament, That, if any Man shall presume to come to this Kingdom, with Instructions from the Pope or Court of Rome, that he shall be in Case of High Treason, and out of Protection of the King and the Laws.

"Eighth Head. Concerning the Security and Peace of the Kingdom.

"Four Branches:

"1. That Men of Honour and Trust be placed Lords Lieutenants in every County; and that Direction be given to the Lieutenants to be careful in the Choice of their Deputies.

"2. That the Trained Bands be furnished with Arms, Powder, and Bullets: and that they be exercised and made ready for Service; also that an Oath be prepared, to pass both the Houses of Parliament (for elsewhere Oaths cannot be enjoined), to be taken by the Lord Lieutenants, Deputy Lieutenants, and other Officers of Trained Bands, and to secure their Fidelity in these dangerous Times.

"3. That the Cinque Ports, and other Ports of the Kingdom, may be put into good Hands; and a List of those who govern them now, may be presented to the Parliament; and that those Persons may be altered upon Reason; and that especial Care be taken for Reparation and Provision of the Forts.

"4. That my Lord Admiral, that noble Lord (of whose Honour the House of Commons stands secure), be desired to inform the Parliament in what Case the Navy is, that, if there be any Defect, it may be provided for out of the Money, which is to come upon the Bill of Tonnage and Poundage; and that, if any suspected Person have any Command in any of His Majesty's Ships, that he may be removed.

"The Ninth Head.

"That His Majesty would be pleased to give Directions to His Learned Counsel to draw a General Pardon, in such a large and beneficial Manner as may be for the Security of His Subjects.

"The Tenth Head.

"A select Committee of the Lords to join with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons, from Time to Time, to confer about these particular Courses as shall be most effectual for the reducing of these Propositions to Effect for the Public Good."

Cessation of Arms renewed.

Ordered, That the Lords Commissioners have Power from this House to treat and conclude with the Scotts Commissioners about the renewing of the Cessation of Arms for Fourteen Days longer, upon the same Terms as formerly, if the Treaty lasts so long; and likewise to treat with the Scots about the retreating of some of their Troops from The Teez.

Committee to move the King for disbanding the Five Regiments.

These Lords following were appointed to move His Majesty, from both Houses, That He will declare the disbanding of the Five Regiments of Foot of our Army, and so likewise for the whole Armies, as Money comes in, and for some Course to be taken for the punishing of those Soldiers as do refuse to be disbanded; and also that the Earl of Holland, Lord General, and the Earl of Newport, Master of the Ordnance, may presently repair to their several Charges and Places in the Army, and take Care to preserve the Army in good Order:

The L. Marquis of Hertford.
The L. Steward.
The L. Chamberlain.
Comes Bathon.
Comes Essex.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Cambridge.
Comes March.
Comes Holland.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.

Foreign Letters to be forwarded.

The House, taking into Consideration the great Inconvenience and Prejudice which the Merchants suffer by the staying of their Letters, Ordered, That those Letters which are this Week to be exported are to be delivered to Mr. Witheringes, the Post-master, to be sent away as usually they have been, without any further staying them.

And a Message was sent down to the House of Commons, by Justice Foster and Justice Heath:

Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with it.

To acquaint that House with the same.

Answer from the House of Commons:

Answer.

That they consent that the Letters be sent away as this House hath Ordered.

Adjourn.

Dominus Capitalis Justiciarius de Communi Banco, Locum tenens Domini Custodis Magni Sigilli, declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque diem Veneris, videlicet, 25m diem instantis Junii, hora 9a, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Huc usque examinatur per nos Dominos,

Warwicke.
Hen. Dover.
Phillip Wharton.
Mandeville.