House of Lords Journal Volume 4
8 August 1641

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History of Parliament Trust

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 4: 8 August 1641', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 4: 1629-42 (1767-1830), pp. 350-353. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=35670 Date accessed: 21 October 2014.


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Contents

DIE Dominico, videlicet, 8 die Augusti.
Message to the H. C. that the Lords agree to move the King for staying His Journey 14 Days. Committee to attend the King for this Purpose. Committee to draw up a Declaration of the Reasons for sitting To-day. Message from the H. C. for a Conference touching the good Correspondency between both Kingdoms. Answer. Lords to report the Conference. Conference reported. Propositions to the Scots Commissioners concerning the Stay of the King's Journey. Committee to deliver these Propositions to the Scots Commissioners, and receive their Answer. Declaration of the Reasons for sitting To-day to be communicated to the H. C. Message from the H. C. to send a Committee to the King, to know when His Majesty will be attended by both Houses, about the Stay of His Journey. Answer. Message to the H. C. that the Lords agree to the Matter of the last Conference. And for a Conference about the Declaration of the Reasons for sitting To-day. Committee to draw up an Answer to the King for the Stay of His Journey. Both Houses to attend the King P. M. Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with it. Justice Reeves Leave to go the Circuit. House to meet before they go to the King. Answer from the H. C. for a Conference about the Declaration of the Reasons for sitting To-day. Conference reported. Adjourn. Post meridiem. Message from the H. C. that they agree to the Declaration of the Reasons for sitting this Day. Declaration concerning sitting on the Lord's-day. This Declaration to be printed. Answer to the H. C. about it. Message from the H. C. to sit after both Houses have waited on the King. Answer. Ld. Keeper to deliver to the King the Four Reasons from the H. C. for deferring His Journey. Committee delivered the Prepositions to the Scots Commissioners. House attends the King. Report of the Reasons delivered to the King, for Stay of His Journey. His Majesty's Answer. Message from the H. C. that the Lords will send them the Answer of the Scots Commissioners to the Propositions for the King's Journey, as soon as they receive it. Answer. Committee to hasten the Answer of the Scots Commissioners. Answer of the Scots Commissioners about saying the King's Journey to Scotland. Message to the H. C. for a Conference, to communicate the Answer of the Scots Commissioners. Answer. Conference reported. Adjourn. Footnotes

DIE Dominico, videlicet, 8 die Augusti.

PRAYERS.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Justice Foster and Justice Mallet:

Message to the H. C. that the Lords agree to move the King for staying His Journey 14 Days.

To let them know, that this House doth join with them in their Desires to move His Majesty concerning the staying of His Journey into Scotland for Fourteen Days longer.

The Messengers returned, with this Answer:

That they have delivered their Message to the House of Commons, as they were commanded.

Committee to attend the King for this Purpose.

These Lords following were appointed to wait on His Majesty, to know what Time He will please to appoint both Houses to wait on Him, touching the deferring of His Journey to Scotland: videlicet,

The L. Privy Seal.
L. Marq. of Hertford.
L. Chamberlain.
Comes Bedford.
Ds. Pagett.

Committee to draw up a Declaration of the Reasons for sitting To-day.

Ordered, That these Lords following do consider, and draw up a Declaration of the Reasons and Grounds that moved this House to sit upon this Day: videlicet,

The L. Privy Seal.
Comes Bathon.
Comes Warwicke.
Comes Bristoll.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Epus. Durham.
Epus. Lincolne.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Kymbolton.
Ds. Brooke.

Message from the H. C. for a Conference touching the good Correspondency between both Kingdoms.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Phillip Stapleton; who was commanded to render their Lordships Thanks, for joining with the House of Commons, in petitioning His Majesty for the staying His Journey into Scotland for Fourteen Days longer; and further, to desire a Conference, by a Committee of both Houses, presently, if it may stand with their Lordships Conveniency, touching the good Correspondency between both the Kingdoms.

The Answer was:

Answer.

That their Lordships will give a present Meeting, in the Painted Chamber, as is desired.

Lords to report the Conference.

The Lord Privy Seal,
Earl of Bath,
Earl of Warwicke,
Earl of Bristoll,
Lord Viscount Say & Seale, and The Lord Bishop of Lincolne,

Were appointed to report the Conference.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed; and the Earl of Bath reported:

Conference reported.

That, at this Conference, the House of Commons gave their Lordships Thanks, for joining with them humbly to petition His Majesty for deferring His Journey to Scotland for Fourteen Days.

Propositions to the Scots Commissioners concerning the Stay of the King's Journey.

And, to the End that this may be no Prejudice to the Parliament of Scotland, the House of Commons desires, That some of the Lords Commissioners may acquaint the Scotts Commissioners with these Particulars following, and desire their Answer:

"1. That the Houses of Parliament have commanded them to express to the Scotts Commissioners the great Care that they have to keepa good Correspondency betwixt the Two Nations of England (fn. *) and Scotland, and to take away the Objections which may be made in Respect of the public Engagement to submit to His Majesty's Pleasure in His present intended Journey into Scotland.

"That they take Notice of the often Meeting and Adjournment of the Parliament of Scotland; and, lest it might be a great Inconvenience, the States being now met there, if they should stay long there together without doing any Thing, both the Houses of Parliament have Resolved, That (for the better Satisfaction of the Parliament of Scotland) they will humbly petition His Majesty to send a Commissioner to Edenborough, that, if there be pressing Occasions to dispatch any of their public Affairs, there may be Authority for the same; and, if they think good to stay His Majesty's coming to them in Person, the Houses of Parliament do hope that will be (fn. †) within Fourteen Days of that Time wherein His Majesty was expected there; and they shall take their Consent hereunto as a great Argument of their Affections to this Kingdom.

"That the Houses likewise do intend to send Commissioners from hence to the Scottish Parliament, to declare to them the great Reasons which moves them to petition His Majesty's Stay for Fourteen Days, which are such as do very much import the Peace and Safety of both Kingdoms; as also their Care to move His most Excellent Majesty to send His Commissioner, that the Parliament of Scotland may not be disappointed in respect of the Dispatch of their own great (fn. ‡) Affairs in that Kingdom in the mean Time.

"And lastly, That the Houses do desire the Scottish Commissioners, in a free and friendly Manner, to declare to them, whether they have lately received any Instructions from the Parliament of Scotland to press His Majesty's present Repair thither in Person, at the Parliament, the 17th Day of this present August."

Committee to deliver these Propositions to the Scots Commissioners, and receive their Answer.

Hereupon,

The Earl of Warwicke,
Viscount Say & Seale,
The Lord Wharton,
The Lord Kymbolton, and
The Lord Savill,

Were appointed presently to go to the Scotts Commissioners, and desire, from both Houses, their Answer hereunto in Writing.

Declaration of the Reasons for sitting To-day to be communicated to the H. C.

Then the Lord Privy (fn. §) Seal reported the Declaration, which the Lords Committees drew up, concerning the Reasons why the Parliament sat this Day; which being read, was approved, and it was Resolved it should be communicated to the House of Commons, at a Conference, for their Approbation likewise.

Message from the H. C. to send a Committee to the King, to know when His Majesty will be attended by both Houses, about the Stay of His Journey.

A Message was sent from the House of Commons, by the Lord of Faulkland:

To desire this House to send some Lords to the King, to know what Time He will please to appoint both Houses to attend Him, to petition that His Majesty would defer His Journey to Scotland for Fourteen Days.

The Answer hereunto returned was:

Answer.

That this House have appointed already some Lords to wait on His Majesty accordingly.

Message to the H. C. that the Lords agree to the Matter of the last Conference.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Robert Rich and Sir Edward Leech:

To let them know, that this House hath agreed to the Matter of the last Conference, and have sent some Lords to the Scotts Commissioners.

And for a Conference about the Declaration of the Reasons for sitting To-day.

Also to desire a present Conference, by a Committee of both Houses, concerning a Declaration touching the Houses sitting this (fn. ||) Day.

Committee to draw up an Answer to the King for the Stay of His Journey.

These Lords were appointed to withdraw, and consider of such Heads as were fit to be delivered by the Speaker of this House to His Majesty, in the Name of both Houses, concerning the deferring of the Time of the King's Journey to Scotland; and to present them to this House.

The L. Privy Seal.
E. of Cambridge.
Comes Bristoll.
Epus. Lincolne.
Ds. Brooke.

Both Houses to attend the King P. M.

Then the Lord Chamberlain reported to the House, That the Lords have attended the King; and His Majesty hath appointed both Houses to wait on Him at Four a Clock this Afternoon, in The Banqueting House, at Whitehall.

Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Justice Foster and Justice Heath:

To let them know His Majesty's Answer as aforesaid.

Justice Reeves Leave to go the Circuit.

Ordered, That Justice Reeves hath Leave to prepare himself for his Circuit against Tuesday next, and to be excused for his Absence in the Interim; and, after the Circuit is ended, he hath Leave to go into his own Country, till the Beginning of Michaelmas Term next.

House to meet before they go to the King.

Ordered, That this House do sit in the Afternoon, before both Houses wait on the King at Whitehall; and afterwards the Lords are to return hither again.

Answer from the H. C. for a Conference about the Declaration of the Reasons for sitting To-day.

The Answer which the House of Commons returned to the Message was:

That they will give a present Meeting, as is desired, in the Painted Chamber, touching the Declaration.

The Lord Privy Seal is appointed to acquaint the House of Commons at this Conference, with the Declaration why both Houses of Parliament sit this Lord's-day.

Conference reported.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed, and the Lord Privy Seal reported, "That he had delivered at the Conference the Declaration, as he was directed by this House."

Adjourn.

Dominus Capitalis Justiciarius de Communi Banco, Locum tenens Domini Custodis Magni Sigilli, declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in post meridiem hujus instantis diei, hora 3a, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Post meridiem.

PRAYERS.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir John Culpepper:

Message from the H. C. that they agree to the Declaration of the Reasons for sitting this Day.

To let their Lordships know, that the House of Commons have unanimously consented (upon the Vote, nemine contradicente) to the pious Declaration made this Day, concerning the Reasons for the Houses of Parliament sitting this Lord's-day; that they have entered it into their Journal, and desire it may be voted and entered here likewise; and that it be printed speedily, and published, to remain to Posterity upon what Grounds and Reasons both Houses sat this Day.

Then the Declaration was read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

Declaration concerning sitting on the Lord's-day.

"Whereas both Houses, upon the Eighth Day of August 1641, being the Lord's-day, for many urgent and unexpected Occasions concerning the Safety of the Kingdom, and being so streightened in Time by Reason of His Majesty's Resolution to begin His Journey towards Scotland on Monday following, early in the Morning, it was not possible so to settle and order the Affairs of the Kingdom, either for the Government thereof in the King's Absence, or for the present Safety, as was requisite upon those pressing Necessities; though the Houses thought it necessary to sit, yet the Lords and Commons now assembled in Parliament think it meet to declare, That they would not have done this but upon inevitable Necessity, the Peace and Safety both of Church and State being so deeply concerned; which they do hereby declare, to the End that neither any other Inferior Court, or Council, or any other Person, may draw this into Example, or make Use of it for their Encouragement in neglecting the due Observation of the Lord's-day."

Resolved, upon the Question, nemine contradicente,

That this Declaration, which hath been voted by the House of Commons nemine contradicente, and entered into their Journal Book, shall likewise be entered into the Journal Book of this House, that it remain to all Posterity what were the true Reasons and Grounds why this House and the House of Commons sat in Parliament upon the Lord's-day.

Resolved, upon the Question, nemine contradicente,

This Declaration to be printed.

That this Declaration, which hath been voted by this House and the House of Commons, shall be printed, for the Satisfaction to all Posterity of the true Reasons which moved both Houses of Parliament to sit upon this Day, being the Lord's-day.

Answer returned to the House of Commons was:

Answer to the H. C. about it.

That this House hath voted, nemine contradicente, the entering the Declaration into the Journal Book of this House, and the printing and publishing of the same.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Nath. Fynes:

Message from the H. C. to sit after both Houses have waited on the King.

To let their Lordships know, that they intend to sit after they have waited on the King at Whitehall; and the House of Commons desires that this House would sit likewise, for there may be some Occasion of Conference.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will sit, as is desired.

Ld. Keeper to deliver to the King the Four Reasons from the H. C. for deferring His Journey.

The Lord Privy Seal reported, "That the Lords Committees are of Opinion, That the Lord Keeper do deliver to His Majesty, from both Houses, only the Four Reasons which came from the House of Commons concerning the deferring of His Majesty's Journey;" and the Reasons being read, this House Ordered the same accordingly.

Committee delivered the Prepositions to the Scots Commissioners.

The Lords that went to the Scottish Commissioners reported, "That they had delivered the Propositions in Writing unto them; and they have promised to return an Answer thereunto in Writing."

House attends the King.

Then the House was adjourned until Six a Clock this Afternoon; and then the Lords went to Whitehall, to attend the King in The Banqueting House.

Report of the Reasons delivered to the King, for Stay of His Journey.

The Lords being returned, the House being resumed; the Lord Keeper reported, "That he had delivered the Reasons to the King, in the Name of both Houses, concerning the staying of His Majesty's Journey into Scotland for Fourteen Days; and His Majesty returns this Answer:

His Majesty's Answer.

"That the Importance of your Desires would require some Time of Deliberation, if the urgent Necessity of the Business did not press the contrary; and His Majesty said, the same Necessity teacheth him what to answer. The Necessity is Two-fold:

"1. The First and chiefest, His public Faith given to His Kingdom, to be present at the Parliament; and His Majesty said, That never any Prince was more strictly bound in Honour to perform any Thing than He was to do this.

"2. The Urgency of His Majesty's Affairs there, which indeed (He said) very great.

"To comply with both which, He can stay no longer than Tuesday; and so long He thought fit to stay, that the Gentlemen of the House of Commons may so hasten the Scottish Treaty, that He may give His Royal Assent thereunto some Time To-morrow, for otherwise His Majesty shall be forced to pass it by that Commission which He leaves behind Him; but the earnest Desire His Majesty hath of passing this important Bill Personally makes Him stay thus long, which He knows will be inconvenient unto Him.

"To conclude, His Majesty desires your Lordships to remember, that, upon your Desires, He hath already stayed One Month; and that you, by public Promise, are engaged not to urge His Stay longer than To-morrow; therefore, remembering all Engagements, His Majesty expects that ye press Him no more in this; for (His Majesty said) indeed He must go; and for the Government of the Kingdom, He hopes He shall leave behind Him such Commissions as will serve, especially since the Parliament is sitting."

After this a Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Hollis:

Message from the H. C. that the Lords will send them the Answer of the Scots Commissioners to the Propositions for the King's Journey, as soon as they receive it.

To desire that, as soon as their Lordships shall receive the Answer of the Scottish Commissioners to the Propositions sent them this Morning, that it may be communicated unto them; and further, to desire their Lordships would be pleased to sit the longer this Evening, because of the extraordinary Affairs at this Time, in regard there may be some Occasion of a Conference upon the Receipt of the Answer from the Scottish Commissioners.

The Answer hereunto returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships have not yet received any Answer from the Scottish Commissioners, but do expect it speedily; and, as soon as it comes, it shall be returned to them; and further, that their Lordships do intend to sit this Evening, as they desire.

Then

Committee to hasten the Answer of the Scots Commissioners.

The Lord Chamberlain,
Earl of Bristoll,
Earl of Berks, & The Lord Brooke,

Were appointed to go and see whether they could find the Scottish Commissioners, and to hasten them to send their Answer, which was presently returned by the aforesaid Lords, and read in these Words: videlicet,

Answer of the Scots Commissioners about saying the King's Journey to Scotland.

"As we are very sensible of the great Care the Houses of Parliament have to keep a good Correspondency betwixt the Two Nations, and the Sense they have of the manifold Inconveniencies which Scotland doth sustain by their frequent Meeting and Adjournment of the Parliament; so we know nothing which can more conduce for conserving that Correspondency, and for removing these manifold Prejudices we sustain through the frequent Prorogation of our Parliament, than that the Treaty of Peace (which, by the Blessing of God, and His Majesty's and the Parliament's Wisdom is now brought to a Close) may, as a sovereign Remedy of the great Evils which trouble both Kingdoms, without further Delay be enacted here, for the Peace and Safety of both Kingdoms, that the same may with all Speed be ratified in the Parliament of Scotland. His Majesty hath, by several Letters, promised to hold the Parliament of Scotland in His own Royal Person, and hath intimated the same by public Proclamation to all His Subjects there; and although His Majesty, by His Royal Letter of the 18th of May, was obliged to have holden the Parliament of Scotland upon the Fifteenth of July last in His own Royal Person; or, if any unexpected Occasion should happen to detain Him, that He would appoint a Commissioner, for holding thereof at the Day aforesaid, to do every Thing which might conduce for the establishing of the true Religion Laws, and Liberties of their Kingdom; yet such is the Affection and Respect of the Parliament of Scotland to the Parliament of England, as, notwithstanding their many pressing Difficulties, they have condescended that His Majesty stay His Journey into Scotland until the 10th Day of August, in respect of the Parliament of England did assent to His Majesty's going at that Time, which the Parliament of Scotland doth expect without any further Delay.

"What may be the Condition or Importment of Affairs here, or what Reason the Parliament hath which moveth them to petition His Majesty's Stay, is not proper for us; we will therefore forbear to shew ourselves beyond our Line, but do remit the Consideration of this to the King and the Parliament's Wisdom.

"And finally, where it is desired by the Houses that we would, in a friendly and free Manner, declare unto them, whether we have lately received any Instructions from the Parliament of Scotland, to press His Majesty's Repair thither in Person, we do conceive, That His Majesty's former Promises of going thither in His own Person upon the Tenth of August, and the Assent of both Houses to His Journey, and the Resolution of the Parliament of Scotland to prepare their Business till the Seventeenth of August, and after that Time that they will conclude and pass such Acts as they conceive necessary for the Good of the Kingdom, a sufficient Instruction for us, both to press and expect His Majesty's going against that Time; and the pressing Necessity of the Affairs of that Kingdom is such as cannot, without Danger of irreparable Loss, suffer longer Delay."

This being read; a Conference was resolved of, to communicate this Answer to the House of Commons.

Message to the H. C. for a Conference, to communicate the Answer of the Scots Commissioners.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Robert Rich and Sir Edward Leech:

To desire a present Conference, by a Committee of both Houses, touching the Scotts Answer.

Answer returned from the House of Commons was:

Answer.

That they will give a Meeting in the Painted Chamber, presently, as is desired.

The Lord Viscount Say & Seale was appointed to deliver to the House of Commons, at this Conference, the Paper containing the Scotts Answer.

Conference reported.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed; and the Lord Viscount Say & Seale reported, "That he had delivered the Paper to the House of Commons at this Conference."

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Lunæ, videlicet, 9m diem instantis Augusti, hora 9a, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Footnotes

* Origin. of.
Origin. with.
Bis in Originali.
§ Deest in Origin.
|| Origin. House.