House of Lords Journal Volume 4
16 December 1641

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 4: 16 December 1641', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 4: 1629-42 (1767-1830), pp. 476-479. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=35741 Date accessed: 23 August 2014.


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DIE Jovis, videlicet, 16 die Decembris.

PRAYERS.

Morgan versus Rookes.

Ordered, That the Cause between Turbervile Morgan and George Rookes shall be heard in this House Tomorrow; and both Parties with their Witnesses to attend.

The King's Answer concerning the Seven Priests.

The Lord Chamberlain reported to this House, "That the Lord Steward and himself had waited on the King, according to their Lordships Command, and presented the Desires of both Houses to His Majesty, that He would be pleased that Execution, according to Law, might be done upon all the Seven Priests condemned, and that His Majesty would be pleased to take off the Reprieve; and the King returns this Answer for the present, That He will take it into His Consideration, and return an Answer to this House."

Ld. Pierpoint's Submission.

This Day the Lord Pierpointc came to the House, and declared his Sorrow for offending this House by those Words that lately fell from him, desiring that their Lordships would pardon him for it, and receive him into their good Opinions again; and gave their Lordships Thanks for their Justice towards him, in admitting him so soon to come and sit in this House; which Submission this House accepted of.

Message from the H. C. to proceed in the Irish Affairs.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Phillip Stapleton, Knight:

To desire that the Proceedings in the Affairs for Ireland may be taken into Consideration with Expedition; as,

Bill for pressing.

"1. That their Lordships would give a speedy Answer touching the Bill for pressing of Soldiers.

For a Declaration from the King against tolerating Popery.

"2. To join with them in their Desires to His Majesty, That He will make a Declaration against Toleration of the Popish Religion.

Conference on the Treaty with the Scots about Ireland.

"3. To desire their Lordships to give them a Conference, at such Time as may stand with the Conveniency of this House, by a Committee of both Houses, touching the Treaty with the Scotts, concerning the Business of Ireland."

The Answer returned to the House of Commons is:

Answer.

That this House will take the Two First Particulars into Consideration with all convenient Speed, and will give a present Conference, as is desired, in the Painted Chamber.

Report from the Committees of both Houses concerning the Infringement of their Privileges.

The Archbishop of Yorke reported, "That the Committees of both Houses appointed to draw a Form of a Protestation, and also a Petition and Remonstrance, which is to be presented to His Majesty, concerning the Breach of the Privileges of Parliament, have met, and conceived a Form of both; and signified, that the Opinion of the Committees were, that they should be both entered into the Journal Books of both Houses."

The Form of a Declaratory Protestation to be entered in both Houses of Parliament was this Day read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

Protestation of both Houses concerning the Breach of Privileges.

"Whereas His most Excellent Majesty did, upon Tuesday last, in full Parliament, in a Speech to both Houses, take Notice of a Bill for the pressing of Soldiers, being in Agitation in the said Houses, and not agreed upon, and did offer a Salvo Jurc, or Provisional Clause, to be added to the said Bill, and did at the same Time declare His Displeasure against some Person or Persons, which had moved some Doubt or Question concerning the same; the Lords and Commons do protest and declare, That such His Majesty's Speech is contrary to the fundamental, ancient, and undoubted Liberty and Privilege of Parliament; and that it doth of Right belong unto them, amongst other Privileges of the High Court of Parliament, that the King ought not to take Notice of any Matter in Agitation or Debate in either the House of Parliament, but by their Information or Agreement; and that His Majesty ought not to propound any Condition, Provision, or Limitation, to any Bill or Act, in Debate or Preparation, in either House of Parliament, or to manifest or declare His Consent or Dissent, Probation or Dislike of the same, before it be presented to Him by the Consent of both Houses; and that every particular Member of either House hath free Liberty of Speech, to propound or debate any Matter, according to the Order and Course of Parliament; and that His Majesty ought not to conceive Displeasure against any Man for such Opinions and Propositions as shall be delivered in such Debate, it belonging to the several Houses of Parliament respectively to judge and determine such Errors and Offences, in Words or Actions, as shall be committed by any of their Members, in handling and debating any Matters there depending: And for the Preservation of the said Privileges for the Time to come, they do ordain and appoint, That this their Protestation and Declaration shall be entered in both Houses; and that our humble Remonstrance and Petition shall be framed and presented to His Majesty in the Name of both Houses, declaring this their ancient and undoubted Right, humbly desiring His Majesty to observe and maintain the said Privileges, and that He will not take Notice of any particular Man's Speeches or Carriage concerning any Matter in Treaty and Debate in Parliament, or conceive any Offence or Displeasure for the same; but that He will declare and make known the Name or Names of the Person or Person by whose Misinformation and evil Counsel he was induced to the Breach of the Privileges of Parliament aforementioned."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this Declaratory Protestation now read is approved of, and shall be entered into this House.

Memorandum, it is declared by this House, That the Person or Persons whom the King shall name shall not be liable to any Punishment, without further Proof.

Next the Petition and Remonstrance to the King was read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

"To the King's most Excellent Majesty.

"The humble Remonstrance and Petition of the Lords and Commons in Parliament.

"Most Gracious Sovereign,

Remonstrance of the Lords and Commons to the King about their Privileges.

"Your Majesty's most humble and loyal Subjects, the Lords and Commons in Parliament, do, with all Faithfulness and Zeal to Your Majesty's Service, acknowledge Your Royal Favour and Protection to be a great Blessing and Security to them, for the enjoying and preserving of all those public and private Liberties and Privileges which belong unto them; and whensoever any of those Privileges shall be invaded or broken, they hold themselves bound, with Humility and Confidence, to resort to Your Princely Justice, for Redress and Satisfaction; and, because the Rights and Privileges of Parliament are the Birth-right and Inheritance not only of themselves but of the whole Kingdom, wherein every of the Subjects is interested, the Maintenance and Preservation whereof doth very highly conduce to the public Peace and Prosperity of Your Majesty and all Your People, they conceive themselves more especially obliged, with all Tenderness and Care, yea, with all Earnestness and Constancy of Resolution and Endeavours, to maintain and defend the same.

"Amongst other the Privileges of Parliament, they do with all dutiful Reverence to Your most Excellent Majesty declare, That it is their ancient and undoubted Right, that Your Majesty ought not to take Notice of any Matter in Agitation and Debate in either of the Houses of Parliament, but by their Informations or Agreement; and that Your Majesty ought not to propound any Condition, Provision, or Limitation, to any Bill or Act, in Debate or Preparation, in either House of Parliament, or to manifest and declare Your Consent or Dissent, Approbation or Dislike of the same, before it be presented to Your Majesty in due Course of Parliament; and that every particular Member of either House hath free Liberty of Speech, to propound or debate any Matter, according to the Order and Course of Parliament; and that Your Majesty ought not to conceive Displeasure against any Man for such Opinions and Propositions as shall be delivered in such Debate, it belonging to the several Houses of Parliament respectively to judge and determine such Errors and Offences, in Words or Actions, as shall be committed by any their Members, in the handling or debating any Matters there depending.

"They do further declare, that all the Privileges above-mentioned have been lately broken, to the great Sorrow and Grievance of Your most humble and faithful Subjects, in that Speech which Your Majesty made in Parliament to both Houses upon Tuesday last, the 14th Day of this Instant Month of December, in that Your Majesty did therein take Notice of a Bill for impressing of Soldiers, being in Agitation in the said Houses, and not agreed upon; and that Your Majesty did therein offer a Salvo Jure, or Provisional Clause, to be added to that Bill, before it was presented to Your Majesty by the Consent of both Houses, and did at the same Time declare Your Displeasure against such Person or Persons as had moved some Doubt or Question concerning the same Bill; all which they do affirm and declare to be against the ancient, lawful, and undoubted Privilege and Liberty of Parliament; and therefore they most humbly beseech Your Majesty, by Your Royal Power and Authority, to maintain and protect them in these and all other the Privileges of Your High Court of Parliament, that You will not for the Time to come break or interrupt the same, and that none of Your loyal Subjects may suffer or sustain any Prejudice in Your Majesty's Favour or good Opinion for any Thing done or spoken in Parliament; and, for the Reparation of Your loyal Subjects in this their just Grievance and Complaint, for the Breaches of their Privileges above-mentioned, and Prevention of the like for the Time to come, that Your Majesty will be pleased to declare and make known the Name or Names of the Person or Persons by whose Misinformation and evil Counsel Your Majesty was induced to the same, that so he or they may receive such condign Punishment as shall appertain to Justice in that Behalf; and this they most humbly desire, and, as Your greatest and most faithful Council, advise Your Majesty to perform, as that which will be not only a Comfort to themselves, but likewise a great Advantage to Your Majesty, by procuring and confirming such a Confidence and Unity betwixt Your Majesty and Your People as may be a Foundation of Honour, Safety, and Happiness to Your Person and Your Throne, as they stand bound always to pray for and endeavour."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this Petition and Remonstrance now read shall be presented to the King.

Committee to present this Petition and Remonstrance to the King.

This being done, these Lords Committees following were appointed to join with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons, to attend the King, and present to Him the aforesaid Petition and Remonstrance of the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament: videlicet,

The L. Archbp. of Yorke.
The L. Steward.
E. Marshal.
L. Admiral.
Comes Bathon.
Comes Dorsett.
Comes Cambridge.
Comes Bristoll.
Comes Holland.
Epus. Durham.
Epus. Norwich.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Kymbolton.
Ds. Brooke.
Ds. Howard de Charlton.
Ds. Roberts.
Ds. Howard de Estcrick.
Ds. Capell.

Then the Lord Steward and the Earl of Holland were appointed presently to attend the King, to know what Time He will please to appoint the select Committees of both Houses may wait upon Him, for this Purport.

Committee to present them To-morrow.

The Lord Steward reported to the House, "That he moved the King, as he was commanded by their Lordships; and His Majesty hath appointed the Committees to wait upon Him at Whitehall To-morrow, at Two of the Clock in the Afternoon."

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Baron Henden and Justice Forster:

Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with it.

To let them know, that this House hath voted the Protestation of the Breach of the Privileges of Parliament to be entered in their Journal-book; and likewise their Lordships have voted the Petition and Remonstrance to be presented to His Majesty; to that Purpose, have appointed Eighteen Lords to join with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons, to attend the King, and deliver the same to Him; and that their Lordships having sent Two Lords to know what Time the Committees may attend His Majesty, He hath appointed Tomorrow, at Two of the Clock in the Afternoon, at Whitehall.

Protection of Armand de Buril.

Upon reading the Petition of Monsieur Jean Armand De Buril, it is Ordered to be referred to (fn. *) the Consideration of the Lords Committees following, who are to examine what Molestation he hath sustained since his coming over into England, for the enjoying of his Religion; and further it is Ordered, That the said Jean Armand de Buril shall be in the Protection and Safeguard of this House, until his Petition be considered of by the Lords Committees, and reported unto this House, and such further Order be made therein as shall be suitable to the Honour and Justice of this House.

The Names of the Lords Committees for the Petition of Jean Armand De Buril are,

The L. Archbp. of Yorke.
L. Chamberlain.
Comes Leycester.
Comes Holland.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Epus. Norwich.
Ds. Kymbolton.
Ds. Roberts,
Ds. Howard de Estcricke.

Their Lordships, or any Three of them, to meet when and where they please.

M'Donnell's Petition.

Ordered, That the Petition of Mr. Mac Donnell is referred to the Consideration of the Committees for the Irish Affairs; and to consider of his Protection, and to report their Opinions to this House.

Hector to be attached for printing Proceedings of Parliament.

Ordered, That the Gentleman Usher attending this House, or his Deputy, shall attach, or cause to be attached, and forthwith brought before this House, the Body of Samuell Hector, to answer such Matters as he stands charged with before their Lordships, for printing, or causing to be printed, a Pamphlet, called Orders voted by the High Court of Parliament.

Report of the L. Lieut. of the Propositions of the Scots concerning Ireland.

The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland reported some Propositions made by the Scotts Commissioners, concerning the Affairs of Ireland:

"As in our First Proposition we made Offer of Ten Thousand Men, in the Name of the Kingdom of Scotland, for further Testimony of our Zeal to His Majesty's Service, and Respect and Brotherly Affection to the Kingdom of England; we declare that we will, upon the Charges of the Kingdom of Scotland, levy and transport these Men, and not stand with our Brethren upon Condition of Levy and Transport Money, which we very well know is usual in such Occasions, and could not in Reason have been denied us, and which will amount to a very considerable Sum of Money.

"A. Fullerton.

"2. We desire that there may be Thirty Thousand Pound, [ (fn. *) advanced to us] of the Brotherly Assistance, because there is great Arrears due to our Soldiers, who will not willingly enter into a new Employment, unless they be satisfied of what is resting.

"3. We desire (because we cannot unfurnish the Kingdom of Scotland of Arms, Cannon, and Ammunition) that what (fn. †) Proportion of these we send with our Army, that so many and such a Proportion of every Kind may be presently sent into Scotland, to remain there till the Return of what we take into Ireland, which we shall give Assurance shall be restored, we retaining so much of that which shall be sent into Scotland as shall be lost or spent of ours in the Service of Ireland.

"A. Fullerton.

"4. We desire that with all Expedition some Ships of War may be appointed, to go Locheyam, Port Patrick, or Air, to guard and waft over our Soldiers, whom we intend for Expedition to transport in small Vessels; and that these Ships shall attend at the Ports in Ireland where we land, that they may be sent over again into Scotland, to bring over to us any Necessaries shall be left behind, and so to land again betwixt these Coasts, to keep the Passage free for going and returning.

"5. We desire that, for every Thousand Foot we send into Ireland, an Hundred Horse may be ready to join with them; and that these be Ordered to receive Instructions and Orders, and in every Thing to obey the Instructions of our Commanders.

"A. Fullerton.

"6. By the Instructions sent by both Houses of your Parliament to the Commissioners in Scotland, and which was sent by His Majesty from Barwick by the Council there, they did beseech His Majesty to commend to the Parliament of Scotland, that they would so take into Consideration the Matters of Wages and other Charges, as they would have done for themselves.

"We in this think, we could not make particular Agreement with our Troops, but desire that you would let us know what Entertainment you give to your own Commanders and Soldiers, wherewith we shall be satisfied, and acquiesce to a Fourth Order you shall take with them, being willing to serve the Crown of England with the same Affection, and upon the same Terms, as if we were English born.

"A. Fullerton."

These Propositions the Scotts Commissioners desire the Answer of the Parliament to.

L. Loftus's Cause.

Upon the humble Petition of the Lord Loftus, read this Day in the House, it is Ordered, That a Commission shall issue, under the Great Seal of England, returnable indilate unto their Lordships, directed unto Sir Samuell Miarte, Knight, Second Justice of His Majesty's Court of Commons Pleas in Ireland, James Dovelland, Esquire, one other of the Justices of the said Court, and Sir Maurice Ewstace, Knight, His Majesty's Principal Serjeant at Law, authorizing them, or any Two of them, to examine upon Oath such Witnesses as shall be produced unto them, upon Interrogatories annexed unto the said Commission, in the Cause of the said Lord Loftus, upon a Transmission brought up from the House of Commons; and it is further Ordered, That the Defendants in the said (fn. *) Cause shall have Notice of the said Commission, who may exhibit their Interrogatories unto the said Commissioners, and cross-examine such Witnesses as shall be produced by the Lord Loftus, and any other Witnesses that the Defendants shall think fit.

Russel's Petition.

Whereas the Petition and Cause of Margarett Russell was, by Order of this House, dated the 27th of May 1641, referred to the Right Honourable the Earl of Essex, whose Lordship's many and great Occasions have not permitted (although his Lordship's Desire hath been) to hear the said Petition; it is therefore Ordered by the Lords in Parliament, That the Right Honourable the Earl of Dover shall be attended by the said Petitioner; and his Lordship is desired, from this House, to consider of the Petition and Cause, and afford her all such Relief, by calling the Parties therein mentioned before his Lordship, and settling some such secure Way on the Behalf and for the Good of the said Petitioner as in his Lordship's Wisdom and Justice he shall think fit.

Smith and Busby in Error.

Forasmuch as the Cause between Smith and Busby, upon a Writ of Error, decidable in no other Court but in the Court of Parliament, in regard the Suit was commenced by Original Writ, and long depending before the Lords there, it hath been sundry Times attended with Counsel, and being it is Matter in Law, the Presence of the Judges is thought needful, and so cannot be heard in Term, without Prejudice to the several Courts of Westm.-hall; it is therefore Ordered by the Lords, That the Matter in Law upon the said Writ of Error, between the said Parties Smith and Busby, shall be argued at the Bar in the House, on Tuesday, being the 11th of January next, peremptorily, not to be altered for any other Man's Private Business; and the Plaintiff is commanded to attend all the Judges, to give them Personal Notice hereof accordingly, and to desire them to be present at the Argument; and the Parties of either Side are to come prepared for arguing and debating of the Points in the said Cause, at their Peril.

Conference about the Scots Propositions relative to Ireland reported.

After this, the House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed; and the Lord Keeper (fn. *) reported the Effect of the Conference, which was: "The House of Commons acquainted this House with the Resolutions, which they have made by Way of Answer to the Scotts Commissioners Six Propositions, touching sending Men for Ireland out of Scotland."

The Resolutions were commanded to be read, as followeth:

"Die Mercurii, 15 Dec. 1641.

"Resolved, upon the Question,

Votes of the H. C. upon the Scots Propositions.

"1. That the House of Commons is of Opinion to consent to the First Proposition, upon the raising of Ten Thousand Men.

"2. That Thirty Thousand Pounds, Part of the next Payment of the Brotherly Assistance, shall be presently raised, and advanced to our Brethren the Scotts, upon the Terms of raising and transporting (fn. †) their Ten Thousand Men aforesaid.

"3. That the House of Commons are of Opinion, to consent to this Third Proposition, upon the Terms of raising the Ten Thousand Men as aforesaid.

"4. That the House of Commons doth consent to this Fourth Proposition, upon the Terms aforesaid of raising the Ten Thousand Men.

"5. That this Fifth Proposition shall be referred back to the Commissioners, to treat with the Commissioners of Scotland upon a less Proportion of Horse.

"6. That the House of Commons doth consent to this Sixth Proposition, upon the Terms of raising the Ten Thousand Men as aforesaid."

Ordered, That this Business be debated Tomorrow.

Next, the Papers that the House of Commons brought up the 14th of December last, concerning some Desires of the House of Commons, which they desired their Lordships to join with them in, and concerning a Declaration to be made by the King against Toleration of the Popish Religion, were read and debated, and divers Amendments and Alterations were made therein; for reducing of which Amendments into Form, a small Committee was appointed, to consider of them, and to report them to this House To-morrow.

Committee about the Papists.

The Names of the Committees were:

The L. Archbp. of Yorke.
L. Admiral.
L. Chamberlain.
Comes South'ton.
Comes Leycester.
Comes Warwicke.
Comes Cambridge.
Comes Hollande.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Kymbolton.
Ds. Brooke.
Ds. Roberts.

Their Lordships, or any Five, to meet To-morrow Morning, at Nine of the Clock, in the Painted Chamber.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Veneris, videlicet, 17m diem instantis Decembris 1641, hora 3a post meridiem, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Footnotes

* Deest in Originali.
* Bis in Origin.
Origin. Proposition.
* Deest in Originali.
* Deest in Origin.
Origin. then.