House of Lords Journal Volume 4
28 February 1642

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 4: 28 February 1642', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 4: 1629-42 (1767-1830), pp. 617-620. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=35791 Date accessed: 21 October 2014.


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Contents

DIE Lunæ, videlicet, 28 Februarii.
Symonds and Bysse sent for, for scandalous Words against the Parliament. Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with it. Marquis of Hertford not able to attend upon the Prince, for Sickness. Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with it. The King's Answer concerning the Prince's not removing from Hampton-Court. His Majesty's Answer about Fears and Jealousies. Letter from the King to the Lord Keeper. His Majesty's Answer to the Message concerning the Militia. Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with these Messages from the King. Earl of Dover's Letter to attend the Parliament, sent to him by His Majesty. The like Letter to the E. of Southampton; and to the L. Great Chamberlain; and to L. Howard of Charlton. Adjourn. Post meridiem. Message from the H. C. for a Conference about the King's Answer touching the Prince and the Militia; and for Col. Butler and Nettervill to be examined. Answer. Letter to the Earl of Huntingdon from the King, to attend the Parliament. Conference reported about the Prince and the Militia. Votes thereupon agreed unto by both Houses. Committee concerning the Prince and the Militia. Message to the H. C. that the Lords agree to these Resolutions, and for Committees to meet about them. Serjeant Ayliff Leave to be absent. Netterville left Prisoner in The Compter. His Allowance. Moor and Macmoyler's Allowance in Newgate. Burk released. Answer from the H. C. for Committees to meet about the Prince and the Militia. Adjourn. Footnotes

DIE Lunæ, videlicet, 28 Februarii.

PRAYERS.

Symonds and Bysse sent for, for scandalous Words against the Parliament.

The Earl of Portland signified to the House, "That he had received some Examinations, taken by Sir Robert Dillington, Baronet, and Sir John Oglander, Knight, in the Isle of Wight, of scandalous Words which have (fn. *) been spoken by Thomas Symonds and Charles Byss, against the Parliament:" Hereupon it is Ordered, That the Gentleman Usher attending this House, his Deputy or Deputies, shall attach and forthwith bring the Bodies of Thomas Symonds and Charles Bysse before the Lords in Parliament, to answer such Things as they stand charged with before their Lordships.

Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with it.

And, because this Business concerned the House of Commons, the Examinations aforesaid were sent down to the House of Commons, by Message, by Edward Leech and Doctor Bennett:

Marquis of Hertford not able to attend upon the Prince, for Sickness.

The Lord Chamberlain signified to the House, "That the Lord Marquis of Hertford is come to London, to take Physick for his Indisposition of Health; and that the King hath taken the Prince into His own Custody, his Lordship being not able to attend upon his Highness, in regard of his ill Health."

Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Robert Rich and Mr. Page:

To let the House of Commons know, that the King hath taken the Prince into His own Custody; and that the Marquis of Hertford is so ill in his Health, that he cannot attend upon his Highness.

The Lord Howard of Charlton reported the King's Answer to the Reasons presented to Him from both Houses, touching the Prince's not removing from Hampton Court: videlicet,

The King's Answer concerning the Prince's not removing from Hampton-Court.

"His Majesty's Answer to the Reasons he received by Way of Message from both Houses, concerning the Prince His Son:

"1. That His Majesty intended, at His Remove from Hampton Court, with His Royal Consort the Queen, towards Dover, that the Prince His Son should stay at Hampton Court till His Majesty returned to some of His Houses; and thereupon, as soon as His Majesty resolved upon a certain Day to be at Greenwich, He commanded that His Son should attend Him there, which was no Way contrary to His former Intention.

"2. That His Majesty was very sorry to hear of the Indisposition of the Marquis Hertford, being the Person upon whom He principally relies for the Care of His dearest Son. But, if that Indisposition should have lasted, His Majesty could no Ways think fit, that his Want of Health should have hindered the Prince from waiting upon His Majesty, according to His Command; and therefore would have been much offended, if the Prince had failed of meeting His Majesty accordingly.

His Majesty's Answer about Fears and Jealousies.

"3. To the Fears and Jealousies, His Majesty knows not what Answer to give, not being (fn. *) able to imagine from what Grounds they proceed: But, if any Information hath been given to that Purpose, His Majesty much desires that the same may be examined to the Bottom; and then He hopes that these Fears and Jealousies will be hereafter continued only with Reference to His Majesty's Rights and Honour."

After this, the Lord Keeper signified to the House, "That he had received a Letter from His Majesty, in Answer to the Ordinance concerning the Militia;" which was read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

"CHARLES R.

Letter from the King to the Lord Keeper.

"Right Trusty and Right Well-beloved Counsellor, We Greet you well. Our Will and Pleasure is, That you deliver, to be read in the House of Peers, this Our Answer to the Desire from both Houses concerning the Militia; and for so doing this shall be your sufficient Warrant. Given at Our House at Greenwich, the 28th February, 1641."

"His Majesty's Answer to the Message concerning the Militia.

His Majesty's Answer to the Message concerning the Militia.

"His Majesty having, with His best Care and Understanding, perused and considered that which was sent Him from both Houses for the ordering of the Militia, presented unto Him to be made an Ordinance of Parliament by the giving of His Royal Assent; as He can by no Means do it, for the Reasons hereafter mentioned, so He doth not conceive Himself obliged, by any Promise made in His Answer of the Second of this Month to the Petition of both Houses, to yield to the same.

"His Majesty finds great Cause to except against the Preface or Introduction to that Order, which confesseth a most dangerous and desperate Design upon the House of Commons of late, supposed to be an Effect of the bloody Counsels of Papists, and other ill-affected Persons, by which many understand (looking upon other Printed Papers to that Purpose) His coming in Person to the House of Commons on the Fourth of January, which begot so unhappy a Misunderstanding between Him and His People; and for that, though He believes it, upon the Information since given Him, to be an apparent Breach of their Privileges, and hath offered and is ready to repair the same for the future, by any Act shall be desired of His Majesty, yet must declare, and require to be believed, That He had no other Design upon that House, or any Member of it, than to require (as He did) the Persons of those Five Gentlemen His Majesty had the Day before accused of High Treason, and to declare that He meant to proceed against them legally and speedily; upon which He believed that House would have delivered them up: And His Majesty calls the Almighty God to Witness, that He was so far from any Intention or Thought of Force or Violence, although that House had not delivered them according to His Demand, or in any Case whatsoever, that He gave those His Servants and others (who then waited on His Majesty) express Charge and Command, that they should give no Offence to any Man; nay, if they received any Provocation or Injury, that they should bear it without Return; and His Majesty neither saw or knew that any Person of His Train had any other Weapons, but His Pensioners and Guard those with which they usually attend His Person to Parliament, and the other Gentlemen Swords; and therefore His Majesty doubts not but His Parliament will be so regardful of His Honour therein, that He shall not undergo any Imputation by the rash or indiscreet Expressions of any young Men then in His Train, or by any desperate Words uttered by others who might mingle with them, without His Consent or Approbation.

"For the Persons nominated to be Lieutenants of the several Counties of England and Wales, His Majesty is contended to allow that Recommendation; only concerning the City of London, and such other Corporations as by ancient Charters have granted unto them the Power of the Militia, His Majesty doth not conceive that it can stand with Justice or Policy to alter their Government in that Particular; and His Majesty is willing forthwith to grant every of them (that of London and those other Corporations excepted) such Commissions as He hath done this Parliament to some Lords Lieutenants, by your Advice: But (fn. *) if that Power be not thought enough, but that more shall be thought fit to be granted to those Persons named than by the Law is in the Crown itself, His Majesty holds it reasonable that the same be (fn. *) by some Law first vested in Him, with Power to transfer it to these Persons, which He will willingly do; and whatever that Power shall be, to avoid all future Doubts and Questions, His Majesty desires it may be digested into an Act of Parliament rather than an Ordinance, so that all His loving Subjects may thereby particularly know both what they are to do, and what they are to suffer for their Neglect, that there may be the least Latitude for His good Subjects to suffer under any arbitrary Power whatsoever.

"And as to the Time desired for the Continuance of the Powers to be granted, His Majesty giveth this Answer, That He cannot consent to divest Himself of the just Power which God and the Laws of this Kingdom have placed in Him for the Defence of His People, and to put (fn. *) it into the Hands of others for any indefinite Time: And, since the Ground of this Request from His Parliament was to secure their present Fears and Jealousies, that they might with Safety apply themselves to the Matter of His Message of the 20th of January; His Majesty hopeth that His Grace to them since that Time, in yielding to so many of their Desires, and in agreeing to the Persons now recommended to Him by His Parliament, and the Power before expressed to be placed in them, will wholly dispel those Fears and Jealousies; and assureth them, that, as His Majesty hath now applied this unusual Remedy to their Doubts, so (if there shall be Cause) He will continue the same to such Time as shall be agreeable to the same Care He now expresseth towards them.

"And in this Answer His Majesty is so far from receding from any Thing He promised or intended to grant in His Answer to the former Petition, that His Majesty hath hereby consented to all was then asked of Him by that Petition concerning the Militia of the Kingdom (except that of London and those other Corporations); which was, to put the same into the Hands of such Persons as should be recommended unto Him by both Houses of Parliament; and His Majesty doubts not but the Parliament, upon well weighing the Particulars of this His Answer, will find the same more satisfactory to their Ends, and the Peace and Welfare of all His good Subjects, than the Way proposed by this intended Ordinance; to which, for these Reasons, His Majesty cannot consent.

"And whereas His Majesty observes, by the Petition from both Houses presented to Him by the Earl of Portland, Sir Thomas Heale, and Sir William Savile, that, in some Places, some Persons begin already to intermeddle of themselves with the Militia, His Majesty expecteth that His Parliament should examine the Particulars thereof, it being a Matter of high Concernment and very great Consequence; and His Majesty requireth, that, if it shall appear to His Parliament that any Persons whatsoever have presumed to command the Militia without lawful Authority, they may be proceeded against according to Law."

Ordered, That this Answer of the King shall be presently sent down to the House of Commons; and, because it is a Business of that great Concernment, this House shall adjourn until Two of the Clock this Afternoon, and meddle with no other Business until some Resolution be taken herein; and likewise to send down to the House of Commons the King's Answer concerning the Prince.

Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with these Messages from the King.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, to this Purpose, by the Master of the Rolls and Mr. Justice Mallet:

To deliver the Two Answers of the King; and to let them know that this House will adjourn until Two a Clock this Afternoon, and desire them to do the like.

Earl of Dover's Letter to attend the Parliament, sent to him by His Majesty.

The Earl of Dover informed the House, "That he received a Letter Yesterday from the King, that, notwithstanding he had Leave to be absent from Parliament, yet he should come and give his Attendance on the Parliament."

The Letter was read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

"CHARLES R.

"Right Trusty and Right Well-beloved Cousin, We Greet you well.

"As We have been graciously pleased, at your Request, and for your private Occasions, by Our former Letters, to dispense with your present Attendance in Parliament; so now, that there is likely to be treated in Parliament Affairs much importing the public Peace and Good of Our Kingdoms, We have thought good, by these Our Letters, to desire you to repair forthwith to London, and not to fail to give your Personal Attendance in Parliament; which as We know your own good Affections to the Public will incline you to be careful to prefer before your own private, so We assure you We shall take it as a Testimony of your good Affections to Us, on whom the Care of the Public doth more immediately depend.

"Given at Our Court at Dover, the 23d of February, 1641.

"To Our Right Trusty and Right Well-beloved Cousin, Henry Earl of Dover."

Then his Lordship further acquainted the House, "That he wondered how this Information should be given to His Majesty, because he hath never absented himself, but daily attended the Parliament; and being one Day with the King, he asked Leave of His Majesty to be absent about some Occasions, and His Majesty denied him Leave."

The like Letter to the E. of Southampton;

The Earl of South'ton acquainted this House, "That he had Leave of the King, and of this House, to be absent from Parliament for some Time; but since hath received a Letter from the King, to the same Effect as the Earl of Dover had."

and to the L. Great Chamberlain;

The Lord Great Chamberlain signified, "He had received a Letter from the King to the same Effect."

and to L. Howard of Charlton.

The Lord Howard of Charleton signified, "He had received a Letter from the King to the same Effect; and that he had the King's Leave to be absent from Parliament for a Time; but never made Use of it."

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in post meridiem hujus instantis diei, hora 2a, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Post meridiem.

PRAYERS.

The Master of the Rolls and Mr. Justice Mallett return with this Answer:

That they have delivered their Message to the House of Commons.

Message from the H. C. for a Conference about the King's Answer touching the Prince and the Militia;

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Arthur Goodwin, Esquire:

1. To desire a present Conference, by a Committee of both Houses, if it may stand with their Lordships Conveniency, touching the Two Answers received from the King this Morning.

and for Col. Butler and Nettervill to be examined.

2. That, whereas Colonel Butler and Mr. Nettervile are their Lordships Prisoners, the House of Commons desires that they may have Leave-to examine them by some Members of their House, concerning the Rebellion of Ireland.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will give a present Conference, as is desired, in the Painted Chamber; and that this House gives Way that some Members of the House of Commons may examine Colonel Butler and Mr. Nettervile.

Letter to the Earl of Huntingdon from the King, to attend the Parliament.

The Earl of Huntingdon acquainted the House, "That he had received a Letter from the King, to attend the Parliament; which Letter was, mutatis mutandis, the same as the Earl of Dover's was."

Conference reported about the Prince and the Militia.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed; and the Lord Keeper reported the Effect of this Conference; which was,

"To acquaint their Lordships with some Votes made by the House of Commons, concerning the King's Message, touching the Prince, and the Militia; in which Votes the House of Commons desires their Lordships Concurrence."

Votes thereupon agreed unto by both Houses.

The several Votes were read, and debated; and Resolutions given by this House to them as followeth:

"1. Resolved, upon the Question, by the House of Commons,

"That this Answer from His Majesty is a Denial to the Desire of both Houses of Parliament concerning the Militia."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Vote.

"2. Resolved, upon the Question, by the House of Commons,

"That those that advised His Majesty to give this Answer are Enemies to the State, and mischievous Projectors against the Safety of the King, and Peace of this Kingdom."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Vote.

"3. Resolved, upon the Question, by the House of Commons,

"That this Denial is of that dangerous Consequence, that, if His Majesty shall persist in it, it will hazard the Peace and Safety of all His Kingdoms, unless some speedy Remedy be applied by the Wisdom and Authority of both Houses of Parliament."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Vote.

"4. Resolved, upon the Question, by the House of Commons,

"That such Parts of this Kingdom as have put themselves into a Posture of Defence against the common Dangers, have done nothing but what is justifiable, and is approved of by this House."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Vote.

"5. Resolved, upon the Question, by the House of Commons,

"That, if His Majesty shall remove into any remote Parts from His Parliament, it will be a great Hazard to the Kingdom, and a great Prejudice to the Proceedings of the Parliament."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Vote.

"6. Resolved, upon the Question, by the House of Commons,

"That this House holds it necessary, that His Majesty may be desired, that the Prince may come unto St. James's, or to some other convenient Place near about London, and there to continue."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Vote.

"7. Resolved, upon the Question, by the House of Commons,

"That the Lords be desired to join with the House of Commons, in an humble Request unto His Majesty, that He will be pleased to reside near His Parliament, that both Houses may have a Conveniency of Access unto Him upon all Occasions."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Vote.

"8. Resolved, upon the Question, by the House of Commons,

"That the Lords be moved, to join with this House, in a fit Course of Examination, to find who were the Persons that gave His Majesty this Advice, that they may be removed from His Majesty, and brought to condign Punishment."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees and joins with the House of Commons in this Vote.

"9. Resolved, upon the Question, by the House of Commons,

"That no Charter can be granted by the King, to create a Power in any Corporation over the Militia of that Place, without Consent of Parliament."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Vote.

"10. Resolved, upon the Question, by the House of Commons,

"That the Lords shall be desired to appoint a select Committee, that may join with a Committee of a proportionable Number of this House, to consider and prepare what is fit further to be done upon these Votes, or upon any Thing else that may arise upon these Answers of His Majesty, concerning the Militia, and concerning the Prince."

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Vote.

Committee concerning the Prince and the Militia.

And the House appointed these Committees following: videlicet,

L. Admiral.
L. Chamberlain.
Comes Bathon.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Leycester.
Comes Warwicke.
Comes Holland.
L. Visc. Say & Seale.
Ds. North.
Ds. Spencer.
Ds. Kymbolton.
Ds. Brooke.
Ds. Robartes.
Ds. Howard de Estc.
Ds. Capell.

Their Lordships, or any Four, to meet when and where they please.

Message to the H. C. that the Lords agree to these Resolutions, and for Committees to meet about them.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Robert Rich and Mr. Page:

To let the House of Commons know, that this House hath agreed to all the Resolutions brought up this Day; and that their Lordships have appointed a Committee of Fifteen Lords, to join with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons, as they have desired.

Serjeant Ayliff Leave to be absent.

Ordered, That Mr. Serjeant Ayliff hath Leave to be absent for Three Weeks, and is to be excused in the mean Time for his Attendance upon this House.

Netterville left Prisoner in The Compter.

Next, Sheriff Clarke was called in, to shew Cause why he did not receive Thomas Nethervile into his House, according to their Lordships Order, but put him into The Compter: The Sheriff said, "It was not out of any Disobedience to the Order of this House; but his House is streight, his Family great, and he hath Judge Berkley as a Prisoner in his House, which forced him to send him for Lodging there, where he wanted for nothing, having Forty Shillings already in Money." With this Answer this House was satisfied; and it is Ordered, That Mr. Sheriff Clarke shall be dismissed from further Attendance concerning this Business.

His Allowance.

And the House, taking Mr. Nethervile's Business into Consideration, thought it not fit that the Sheriff should be at further Charge with him: Therefore Ordered, That Thomas Nethervile, now a Prisoner in The Compter of Woodstreet, London, shall abide and continue there, until he give such Security for his not going over into Ireland, as he hath been formerly enjoined by Order of this House; and it is further Ordered, That he shall receive Two Shillings per Diem, during his Imprisonment, from the Clerk of the Crown in the Chancery, out of the Contribution-monies that their Lordships gave for the Relief of the poor distressed Irish.

Moor and Macmoyler's Allowance in Newgate.

Ordered, That Edmund Moore, now a Prisoner in Newgate, shall be allowed Six Shillings a Week, and Richard Macmoyler Four Shillings a Week, from the Date of this Order, during their Imprisonment; and the same to be paid by the Clerk of the Crown in the Chancery, out of the Contribution-monies that their Lordships have given for the Relief of the poor distressed Irish.

Burk released.

Ordered, That Mr. Burke, an Irishman, now a Prisoner in The Fleet, shall forthwith be freed and set at Liberty of and from his present Restraint and Imprisonment; and that he shall be permitted to go into Ireland, to his Father; but the Lord Chamberlain is to write to the Earl of St. Albanes, that the said Burke (being an Acquaintance of his Lordship) may be in his Care, that he go not to the Rebels of Ireland.

Answer from the H. C. for Committees to meet about the Prince and the Militia.

The Messengers sent to the House of Commons return with this Answer:

That the House of Commons have appointed a proportionable (fn. *) Number of their House, to meet with the Lords Committees, and will give a Meeting presently.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Martis, videlicet, 1m Martii, 1641, hora nona Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Footnotes

* Deest in Originali.
* Deest in Originali.
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* Deest in Originali.