House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 26 May 1614

Jovis, 26o Maii

Privilege - Reflections on the House.

Mr. Hackwill reporteth the Matter of the Bishop of Lincolne. - That the Words were. That the Matter of Impositions is a Noli me tangere. - That I, or whosoever else have taken the Oath of Supremacy and Allegiance -

That this striketh, not -

That at another - That, for his part, he thought not fit to hear them. -

That these were the Words, or in the like Effect; and that these were generally agreed; other Words being left out, which spoken of by some, but not generally heard. -

Agreed, that the Ground of this to be common Fame; which certain Ground enough ; being spoken, not at large, but in the Upper House. -

The Means of Remedy propounded, Three: 1. To go to the Lords, to get Proof from them. 2. To complain to the Lords of the Wrong, and to desire Redress from them, as we, in like Case would for them. 3. To go immediately to the King for Redress. -

The last agreed upon by 21 Voices ; the second, by 18 Voices. -

The Means of the Message; to be by Mr. Speaker, or how; referred to the Judgment of the House this Day. -

That the Committee hath resolved a Forbearance in all other Affairs but this till his Majesty's Answer to this. - Resolved.

Sir Edw. Sands: - That this Cause he now speaketh in, as weighty as any ever came here; concerning the Liberties, both of this, and the Higher House of Parliament. - To sever Passion from Judgment: - From the Hypothesis to the Thesis. - The Question, to whom Complaint to be made, when a Wrong offered by a scandalous Speech uttered by a Lord of Parliament. -

Not to tax the reverent Degree of Bishops, by One Man's Error. - Order of Angels, not of Men, where none of them without Error. -

For Ferrers his Case, and Sir Tho. Shirleye's Case; no Authority to be used, but their own. -

For the Bishop of Rochester's Case, where he taxed the Commons House with want of Faith, in a Speech in the Parliament; This a Chronicle Precedent, which no better than Chronicle Law: Besides, the Constitution of the Lords House not now, as then; for then all Abbots and Priors were of the House.

That the Effect there, of their going to the King, was but his Interpretation of himself, that he meant not those Words, of England, but, of Bohemia.

That to go immediately to the King, wrongeth the Liberties of the Upper House. - Liberties of Parliament, Three: Liberty of Election, which proper only to this House: 2. Freedom of Arrest: 3. Freedom of Speech. - Words of Treason, or Matter of Felony, have no Protection here, but punishable by the King: but Words of Scandal, or which may make Sedition between the Two Houses -

These Words punishable. -

1. Proved by Usage of both Houses. -

That, last Parliament, the Lords, for the like, sent a Lord to the Fleete, and suspended him from the House.

- And Sir Christofer Pigott's Case here.

Stat. 4 H. VIII. - Rich. Strowde: - Which maketh all Proceedings void, for speaking, &c. -

That this Statute but a Declaration of the Law before, which proved by the continual Usage.

2. That this prejudicial to the Liberties of this House.

- That this House can challenge no Liberty further than the Lords. Where most Honour, most Liberty. If any Man overslip himself here, in Speech against the Upper House, would not we think it unfit ?

3. That this will be a Wrong to the King. If the King punish him the Lords will take it ill; if the King should put over his Punishment to the Lords, it were an Indignity to the King. If the Lords shall stand upon their Liberties, and the King shall seek to punish, and this make a Division between the Lords and the King; this not to deal with them, as we would have them deal with us. - Great Care, not to have any Breach between the Two Houses: If any, the Fault not to be ours.

Sir Roger Owen: - The only Precedent in that Case, Fisher's Case; where all Circumstances concur. That there we went to the King immediately, and the Bishops joined all with Fisher. -

That the other Precedents vouched to other Purposes. -

Denieth Wrong by this, either to the Lords House, this, or the King's -

For his Precedents, Sir Edw. Sands vouched, doubteth not but the Upper House may commit a Lord there. - That, for 3 or 400 Years, these Houses have sitten severally. That the Lord Chancellor, the Speaker not chosen by that House, as our Speaker here; but chosen by the King. -

That the Case of Piggott is nothing; because we have not Power here: The Act of Parliament, 4 H. VIII. only -

That going to the King the more speedy Course.

2. That imagined, the Lords will refuse to confer in a Matter so nearly concerning themselves, and us. - That he either not admonished there, or not punished. - Not to suffer Shipwreck twice. - That the Bishops have complained to the King of Mr. Secretary's Speech. That we cannot go to the King after we have gone to the Lords; for if the Lords shall punish him, though not sufficiently -

Memorandum, That in the midst of Sir Ro. Owens, Speech, divers pressed Mr. Speaker - but generally that dislike ; whereupon he ended his Speech.

Mr. Alford moveth, the Messengers from the Lords may be given to understand -

Impositions.

Mr. Dr. Bird, Mr. Dr. James, Sir Geo. Coppyn, bring an Answer from the Lords; That their Lordships, having considered of the Message for the Conference concerning Impositions, return this Answer; They will ever be willing to hold a mutual Correspondency with this House; but that, having entered into Consideration of the Cause and Circumstances thereupon, they hold it not fitting to confer with this House about it, at this Time. -

Privilege - Reflections on the House.

Sir D. Digges: - That many Things in the Chronicles very untrue. That it is so, in Tho. Walsingham, a much learned Writer than Hall. That no sufficient Punishment to be expected, without Consent of the Lords. -

That no Cause to fear but the Lords will acknowlege the Matter in Fact, though they differ in Opinion for Conference about Impositions. -

That to wave the Lords, is to make them our Enemies, where we may have them join as Friends.- -

Concludeth to go first to the Lords, to get what Advantage we can by them, and, if they refuse, or give us not Satisfaction, then to go to the King.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - To go first to the Lords. -

1. If the Privileges of the Lords but as ours; then, if the King may punish him now for an Offence to our House, so he may do one of ours.

2. That this will be a Means to make him escape Punishment; for they will be jealous of their Liberties : For if they shall determine upon the Question, that the King's punishing him a Wrong to their Liberties, that will be a good Discharge to the King not to -

Mr. Monperson: - That One Conference already denied us : Now if we resort to them, as Judges, and they punish him, though slightly; then by what Precedent we may resort further to the King ?

Sir James Perrott . - The Precedent of Fisher not to be followed; for took no good Effect - Insisteth upon Sir Edw. Sands' Reasons of ill Precedent, both for the Upper House, or this. - That if we go first -

Mr. Fuller: - To go to the Lords first. - That this tendeth to the Overthrow of the Frame of Parliaments.

- Doubteth not, but they will be sensible of it, as well as we.- -

That Pigott spake on the Friday roughly; that on Saturday he spake long, but without ill Words.

Sir Tho. Rowe: - No Cause to distrust the Lords Spiritual or Temporal, though of the first One half fallen - that as with the Apostles. - To go to the King, will draw the Lords to be our Enemies, and give him a Means to escape. -

The Lord Latymer by the Upper House sent hither to receive his Punishment.

Sir Wm. Strowd: - That the Message this Day maketh him more constant. - No Hope for any Help there. - That the King calling the Lords, they will avow it to him.

Sir Maur. Berkeley . - That the Message this Day hath altered his Affection, but not his Judgment. - Doubteth not but the Lords will join in the Punishment of him. Concludeth to go the Lords.

Mr. Floyd: - To go to the King, because this a Scandal capital. - Empson and Dudley indicted of High Treason, for sowing of Sedition.

Sir Jo. Sammes: - That in 4o Jac. the Lords refused, or forbare, to confer about the Wards. That the Going to the Lords a Means to increase his Punishment.

Mr. Hoskyns: - Though we fail of Justice with the Lords, (as feareth we shall) yet thinketh fit we go to the Lords. - That the Course -

Mr. Hackwill, converted, is now of Opinion we should go to the Lords.

Mr. Serjeant: - That we cannot proceed with the Judgment of Parliament-men. - To go immediately.

Three Causes of Conferences between the Two. 1. Ad inquirendum et examinandum: 2. Ad tractandum: 3. Ad consulendum. - Non refert, quid notum judici, si non notum judicialiter. - That this Body politique sensible.

Sir H. Croftes: - Better to let him go unpunished, than to bring ourselves into that Snare.

Resolved, upon the Question, a Message to be sent to the Lords concerning this Matter. -

Sir Edw. Hobby, Mr. Secretary, Sir Edwyn Sands, Sir D. Digges, Sir Roger Owen, Sir Edw. Mountague, Mr. Serjeant Mountague, Sir Tho. Rowe: - This Afternoon, in the Court of Wards.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - To have the Matter for the Forbearance, to come to the Question. Mr. Fuller, against it; Sir D. Digges, for it.

Mr. Trevor putteth them in mind, the Lords sit not To-morrow.

Mr. Speaker excuseth his Rising; and desireth, he may give his Reasons, why not now fit to put this to the Question.

Ruled, he should (upon Leave asked) speak his Reasons.

Mr. Speaker . - That this Word " Forbearance," is no less than a Cessation, or an Adjournment. - No Adjournment by this House when the Lords sit. - That this divideth the Body of the Lords and us.

Sin Ed. Moontague : - - That greater Fear made by Mr. Speaker, than Cause; for Loss but of Tomorrow, in which Time we may treat of this. To send to the Lords on Saturday.

Sir Tho. Hobby: - That this an Order for Cessation; which the House may, when they will -

Ordered, upon the Question, That there shall be a Forbearance of proceeding in all other Business, save this, till an Answer from the Lords concerning this Message, to be now sent unto them.