Wednesday, December 3, 1656.
A private bill for the Patron and Vicar of Plymouth, to
let leases for three lives, or ninety-nine years, at a rack-rent,
was read the second time.
Mr. Pedley and Mr. Robinson. (fn. 1) For form's sake, it should
be committed. By the common law, the Patron, Vicar, and
Ordinary, joining, may let leases ut supra; but per statute, 13
Eliz., they are restrained. It alters the law, and so by the
orders it ought to be committed, to hear what any body can
say to it.
Major-General Kekey, Mr. Fowell, and Mr. Bond. There
is no need to commit it, for none can except against it, seeing
there is no power given by the bill to take fines, &c. but to let
at a rack-rent, which (if that were observed in all corporations) it were no injury to grant such a liberty to all corporations in general.
Resolved, that the bill be ingrossed; but, by direction of
the Speaker, [Sir Thomas Widdrington] the question was
put for commitment, that being the proper question.
Mr. Speaker. Here are two private bills, concerning two of
the members, which I suppose you will admit to be read as the
An Act to enable Richard Carter, Esq. son and heir of
John Carter, Esq. deceased, to sell lands for payment of the
debts of the said John Carter the father, and Richard his son.
Read the first time. His father's debts, three thousand
pounds, wherein the son stands engaged per bond.
Colonel Rouse. He is sued. Judgments, executions, and
ousters, against him; and in daily danger to be laid in prison.
His rents of assize are one hundred pounds per annum; demesnes, four hundred pounds per annum. He desires this may
be settled upon him, in fee for payment of debts, ut supra.
Resolved, that this bill be read the second time on Saturday.
Mr. Robinson.—I desire that longer time may be given for
the second reading, for it may concern other persons.
The Master of the Rolls. [William Lenthall] Judge-Advocate Whalley's case is very hard. I desire his bill may be read.
Scotch. It being appointed to be read another
day, and it being now adjourned sine die, it ought not to be
read without a new order to that purpose; so I would not
have it read now.
An Act for settling Henry Whalley and Erasmus Smith in
certain lands fallen to them by lots, upon the adventures in
Ireland: acres, Irish measure, 11,750; formerly of the Lords
of Ardes (fn. 3) and Glainboise.
They pretend that one may compound, per the Lord Protector's ordinance; and that the other has articles of war,
(viz. Lord of Ardes.) It was desired that these lots, being
cast in first, might, notwithstanding these claims, be settled
Sir John Reynolds and Colonel Markham. Would have some
expedient found upon committing of the bill, to satisfy JudgeAdvocate Whalley some other way, for Lord Glainboise has
compounded for these lands, according to the ordinance of his
Highness. You ought to be tender, likewise, in the articles
which Lord Ardes pretends to; hope you will use mercy
rather than rigour.
Mr. — Scotch. Lord Glainboise hath been very faithful
to you, though he had the hap to be a little wrong, for which
he was sequestered; and having compounded (if it be reversed), who is secured ?
Mr. Robinson. These adventurers ought to be specially
respected; for they were the first that trusted you, as that
gentleman told you. If you be not steady, who will trust
you? I would rather violate the other claims, than those
which were grounded upon so much trust and confidence in
your cause, when it was but in its infancy. I speak it not for
Judge-Advocate Whalley, nor for Mr. Smith. I know him
not: but I speak for the justice and credit of your old cause.
I would not have that trust violated, of all trusts whatsoever.
The good old interest ought to be borne up.
Lord Lambert. Lord Glainboise did compound, and was
to pay 10,000l., which was as much, if not more, than the
estate were worth if it were to be sold. Lord Ardes, by the
articles, was to enjoy his estate till the Parliament took further
notice. Now the Parliament has taken further notice by the
declaration, whereby time was given for such persons, with
their estates, to be gone.
All parties have been heard, too and again, in this last case,
both before the Committee of Articles (who thought they had
power to hear, but not to determine,) and before his Highness
and his council, who thought they had not power in it, so
they were transferred into Ireland, to be relieved according to
the orders and ordinances of Parliament.
I would have this committed, and if you find a clear right
in these Lords, or either of them, to their estates, it may be
provided some other way for the adventurers; for it may be
other men's cases as well as theirs. But I would have
you specially tender in performing your trusts and credits.
I know that Judge-Advocate Whalley and Mr. Smith have
taken a great deal of pains in the business.
The Master of the Rolls. If this adventure be taken from
them, which they have assigned them by lot, they can never
resort again; so by this means they lose the whole. I care
not, so it be not totally lost. It was your first faith, and
it may be well called an adventure; for Ireland was almost
all lost when they adventured.
"The King made himself merry," said Luke Robinson, "by
saying of these adventurers, that 'you carved the lion's skin
before he was dead.'" I desire that it may be committed for
the relief of the adventurers.
Major Waring. I am against the committing of this bill, for
there are other trusts and faiths to be performed, and other
members concerned. I desire that you would not take one
and leave another, but consider all together. There are
faiths of greater concernment unsatisfied.
Sir William Strickland and Major-General Kelsey. These
adventurers should be satisfied out of the composition monies, (fn. 4) for you ought to take care of them that, out of mere
conscience, trusted you, and to respect the justice of the
Parliament and the army too.
Major Morgan. Lord Ardes' articles have been twice
affirmed. Lord Glainboise hath done you more service than
disservice. I would have them repaired; but, rather, that
their estates might be assigned them in some other part of
the nation; for in the North, (fn. 5) the Scotch keep up an interest distinct in garb and all formalities, and are able to raise
forty thousand fighting men at any time, which they may
easily convey over into the Highlands, upon any occasion; and
you have not so much interest in them as you have in the
inhabitants of the Scotch nation. I would have the adventurers have the lands fallen to them by lot; and the other
claimers provided for elsewhere.
Resolved, That this Bill be committed in the Duchy Chamber (fn. 6) to-morrow.
Mr. Bampfield and Mr. Robinson. All that serve for Ireland should be of this committee.
Sir Gilbert Pickering and Mr. Highland. Against any
such distinction of members. It is an ill precedent, and looks
not like an union. Desire that they may be all named, and
name as many as you will; but let them not be exclusively
Mr. Ashe, the elder. As they sit in Parliament they are
not Irishmen, but mere Englishmen.
Resolved, That all that serve for Ireland be of the committee.
Resolved, That the bill for small debts be resumed on Saturday next.
Mr. Pedley brought in the bill for the relief of prisoners
and creditors, (fn. 7) read the first time. Appointed to be read
the second time on Tuesday next.
Mr. Speaker. It is time that I should leave the chair
upon the business of the Scotch Union. (fn. 8)
Resolved, That the hill for the ministers of Northampton be
brought in on Tuesday next, per Mr. Harvey.
Major-General Disbrowe. I would not hinder the bill
for the Scotch Union, so desire another day for the bill
for trial of actions in their proper counties. We have but a
short time. (fn. 9)
Mr. Speaker. There was such a bill indeed, that no actions should be tried at the bar (fn. 10) but such as the justices appointed.
Resolved, That it be read the second time on Tuesday next.
Mr. Highland. We have but a week to sit, so I would
have you go on with the bill for the Scotch Union.
Sir Thomas Wroth, I shall not undertake to determine
how long or how short a time we shall sit, so I would have
you read the bill for recusants, (fn. 11) and go on to dispatch other
business in order.
Resolved, That the business of the Scotch Union be resumed
to-morrow morning, at nine o'clock, without fail.
An Act for the discovering, convicting, and repressing of
Popish recusants. Read the second time.
Mr. Bond. There is one desperate clause in it, as I understand it: if my wife turn Papist, I shall suffer sequestration
of two-parts of my estate.
Lord Whitlock. I except against that clause, if it be as
that gentleman opened it.
I would not have it solely left to the discretion of any persons to judge who are suspected to be recusants. This is too
large a liberty. I would have rules in it. There are other
things to which I could except, which I shall do at the committee.
Sir William Strickland. Something else should be provided: not only to renounce Popery, but to give some sign
that a man become a Protestant, lest, instead of being a
Papist, he become an Atheist.
I would have the oath taken more solemnly, either in open
sessions or assizes, not before two justices.
Mr. Fowell. The Protestant guardian should not only be
bound for his life, but the child should be brought up in the
Mr. Robinson. I except against the preamble. 1. You
asperse your war in charging it as the cause of the increase of
2. It is in the power of one justice in sessions. I never
heard of one justice to make a sessions.
3. It will be chargeable, to bind people over to prosecute in
such cases, without some consideration for their trouble.
4. I would have the conformity as publick as you can, for
otherwise you will lay justices open to temptations. It was
told you, not long since, of a white capon taken by a justice.
5. There is no clear way for the discharge of the estate.
Being once seized and certified, it is hard to get it discharged.
6. It is a good clause, that against marrying of a Papist
Dr. Clarges. I except, 1. against the manner of conviction,
for the Pope can dispense with it.
2. Against the clause for marrying a Papist wife. The
believing husband shall convert the unbelieving wife. (fn. 12)
Mr. Downing. That clause for marrying a papist wife is
the best part of it. It is against the Scripture. Solomon
cxccpts against it. (fn. 13) It was that which the late king lost not
only two-thirds for, (fn. 14) but all; by marrying of a Popish woman.
Mr. Bacon. Something should be added to the oath.
Mr. Butler. I am very much beholden to Mr. Bacon, for
he helped most to the drawing of the act. I, for my part,
have some exceptions against it.
Sir Gilbert Pickering. If a man shall renounce the supremacy of the Pope, and haply, in his own private opinion, may
hold purgatory or some other thing in the oath, it is hard
that for this he should be sequestered. I would have no man
suffer for his bare opinion.
Mr. Butler, admitted to speak again, supports the motion.
Mr. Picketing. The end is not to punish any for their
opinions, but to reduce them to the obedience of the government. Great sums go out of this nation from the Papists,
and great sums come from beyond seas for relief of poor
He made a long story to little purpose.
Mr. Speaker. It was well observed to you by Mr. Robinson, that no provision is made for conformable heirs.
Major-General Packer. Clerks of the Peace and other
officers may not do the business without fees, but be paid
out of the two parts.
Mr. Floyd. I have exceptions against it, but will offer
them at the Committee.
Resolved, upon motion by Mr. Bedford, That it be referred
to the same Committee, and all that come to have voices.
To meet to-morrow afternoon, in the Duchy chamber.
Resolved, on the motion of Mr. Croke, That the report
concerning registers (fn. 15) be made on Friday.
Resolved, on the motion of Colonel Cox, That the Committee for Norwich stuffs do fill up the blanks. (fn. 16)
Drugo Wright, (fn. 17) brought to the bar. Confesseth he directed
the subpœna to be served upon Colonel Wilton, which his
attorney told him he might do. He is sorry for his fault.
Mr. Speaker and Mr. Bond. A prisoner ought not to
stand up till the Speaker bid him rise. Have known a
delinquent upon his knees all the time.
Mr. Bampfield. By the orders of the House, the prisoner
ought not to kneel when the Speaker speaks to him.
Sir John Hobart. You will accept of his submission. He
is an ignorant young fellow, and hearing that a messenger was
gone down into Norfolk for him, he appeared gratis, and
rendered himself to the Serjeant. I desire also, that: the
order out, to apprehend the attorney, may be withdrawn.
Lord Whitlock seconded what he moved.
Mr. Robinson. If you have such privileges I would have
you to assert them, lest those without think you dare not own
them. I doubt it is out of design to put these affronts upon
you. I fear it makes others presume. You have had more
complaints of this nature in this Parliament than in many
years before. I would have you commit him till he petition
to be discharged; and begin with him, to make examples.
Mr. Bond. I never knew any brought upon his knees
before you, but he was returned back again to prison that he
might petition before his releasement, and that it might appear upon your Records.
Colonel Wilton. I humbly desire he may be enlarged; for
though very tender of the breach of your privilege, yet I am
content, for my part, to pass it by, because the fellow is but
young and ignorant.
Mr. Speaker. I have seen that, forty years ago, the serving
of a subpœna was a breach of privilege.
Colonel Cox. A subpœna ought to be an extenuation of the
offence. We are to judge by what things are, and not by
what the offence will be. I would not have this gentleman
strictlier dealt withall than others.
Major General Disbrowe. Sending for him hither asserts
your privilege. It is not his putting in paper or petition
that does it. I desire he may be discharged without petition.
Resolved, that, at the request of Colonel Wilson and the
humble submission of the party, he be discharged; paying his
Resolved, That the warrant against Edward Parker, the
attorney, be withdrawn.
In the Speaker's Chamber sate the Committee for Norwich stuffs, where we despatched the bill. Mr. Butler had
In the Painted Chamber sat James Noyler's
(fn. 18) Committee.
Nayler was called to answer to a new charge touching some
unseemly communications between him and Martha, (fn. 19) his
fellow prisoner. She stroked his head, and sat breast to
breast, and desired him to go with her. He answered, he
was not free, and several other particulars.
The Committee was ready to rise till Mr. Carey and Mr.
Lister came in, and desired that Nayler might be asked something, as to the substance of the whole charge against him.
The sense of the Committee was against asking him any more
questions, lest it should intricate the report; yet, for their
satisfaction, that all might be clear, he was admitted to speak;
and being asked if he had any more to say, he told us that
he doubted some had a design to entangle his innocency, and
instanced in something that one said, the other day, at the
Committee, (it was Mr. Downing,) We have gotten enough
out of him. Nayler said, this hath stuck upon his spiritever since.
Yet, by good providence, the gentlemen that doubted,
were more confirmed by his second answer; and acknowledged he said more, materially, in these last words, than in all
the other times of his examination. The words were thus:
—" I do abhor that any honour due to God should be given
to me, as I am a creature. But it pleased the Lord to set
me up as a sign of the coming of the Righteous One, and what
has been done as I passed through these towns, I was commanded by the Lord to suffer such things to be done by me,
as to the outward, as a sign, not as I am a creature."