Tuesday, May 26, 1657.
Being the first day upon the new footing of the constitution, I came in and found the House debating about Captain
Arthur's Bill, (fn. 1) which was committed, and all the members
for Ireland to be added.
Colonel Sankey and Major-General Bridge moved, that
Colonel Louthian's petition might be read, which was done and
referred to the Committee at Worcester House; therein to be
done as in cases of the like nature.
Lord Cochrane moved, that the Lady Stewart's petition
might be read.
Mr. Speaker inclined.
The Master of the Rolls. I move that all private business
may be laid aside. The weather grows hot. I hope we
shall not sit all summer. I would have public business, as
monies and the like, and the clamours for the public faith (fn. 2)
Major Morgan and Major Aston moved that the business
of Ireland might be taken into consideration; which was of
great consideration: otherwise, all the expense of blood and
treasure spent there will be lost.
Dr. Clarges moved, that the Bill for Assessments in Ireland might be brought in, before any thing further done for
Mr. Pedley moved, that the Bill for Assessments in Scotland might also be brought in.
Mr. Godfrey. I move that you would make the report,
which is of greatest consequence, touching his Highness's answer yesterday.
Sir Thomas Wroth. I second the wise motion by the
Master of the Rolls, that all private business be laid aside
for a fortnight, and that we go to those that are most public. It is all that the people are like to have for their
monies. They are likely to pay well for it.
I would have you take the courage which belongs to your
place, that you would not gratify every man, which is a hard
thing for you to do, by receiving private business; as if we
should perpetuate this Parliament.
Colonel Gorges moved for the privilege of a member, viz.
Mr. Denn, (fn. 3) but it was put off till to-morrow morn.
Mr. Speaker. The report from the Speaker had the preeminence, ever since I sat in Parliament.
He made the report of his Highness's speech, and read the
speech verbatim. (fn. 4)
Lord Chief-Justice Glynn. I move that this debate be put
off till to-morrow; and to the end you may be an example to
other Courts of Justice, that you would not delay that business of Lord Craven's; but go on with it now, seeing the
counsel are waiting at the door, and it is at the parties' great
This motion was seconded. (fn. 5)
Mr. Bedford moved, that the Bill for recusants be read on
Thursday; for Assessments and the Irish Bill on Friday.
Sir William Strickland moved that the report for York
River be read on Saturday.
The counsel for Lord Craven were called in, viz. Mr.
Finch and Mr. Alien, counsel, and Mr. Hartlipp, Solicitor.
Mr. Speaker. I move, that for the gravity of the House,
while this cause is hearing, you, being as a Court of Justice,
would not talk to one another, nor move out of your seats,
nor stay in the gallery, in regard the House is thin.
He asked Mr. Finch who he was of counsel for.
He answered, he was of counsel for my Lord Craven, and
moved that the petition might be read, which was done.
Mr. Finch. This is a supplication of the saddest petitioner that ever came before you, and it is the best entrance
that ever was to have right in this business, to be admitted
into this honourable assembly, where there ought not be
trifling. It is not only a petition of grace, but of right.
Three sorts,—I. What did precede that vote of confiscacation?
II. That which did succeed that vote, before the Bill of
III. That which has been since the Bill.
In May, 1641, no man so short-sighted but might see the
storm. He had leave to go into Holland.
The counsel made report of the rebellion breaking out
touching Sir Charles Coote's letter, &c.
Mr. Finch. An endeavour, I may say a practice, to bring
Lord Craven under sequestration. I will not perplex my evidence by setting forth the place where, and the like circumstances. Our greatest evidence is out of your Journals. We
desire they may be read.
March 6,1650. Under that date, appears both Sir Charles
Coote's letter, Mr. Attorney-General's report, and all the
The first thing offered was the license of the House of
Lords of the 10th May, 1641, for Lord Craven's going over.
Mr. Speaker required the counsel to withdraw.
Lord Chief-Justice Glynn. I move that any member may
stand up and move for the parties to withdraw; otherwise, all
the burthen will lie upon you. But another thing is considerable, whether you will not hear all parties, both the AttorneyGeneral and the parties who are purchasers; for if you proceed to hear ex parte, you must hear it over again. At least
let the parties have notice, and leave it to them to appear
Mr. Speaker. I move that it may be known whether the
purchasers have had notice. It falls out so that the AttorneyGeneral and solicitors are both members, and so cannot, in
person, plead at the bar. It is fit some counsel should be
assigned in their place.
Sir Thomas Wroth. It will not be wise to hear parties on
one side; but to adjourn till you can have all parties.
Colonel White moved, as from the purchasers, that counsel
might be heard on their parts. (Some were named to me, as
Serjeant Maynard, Newdigate, Dr. Turner, Mr. Walker,
&c.) and likewise that counsel might be assigned for the
Colonel Shapcott moved to have the counsel called in, and
asked whether the other parties had notice.
Colonel Grosvenor. It matters not whether the parties gave
any notice or no, for no counsel will presume to come hither
without your order.
Dr. Clarges. It is not proper to hear counsel for the
purchasers, but only for the Commonwealth; for the dispute
lies between the Commonwealth and Lord Craven, who prays
that a part of an Act of Parliament may be repealed.
The counsel were called in again.
Mr. Speaker asked them whether the Commonwealth or the
purchasers had any notice.
Mr. Finch. I cannot say that the parties had notice, but
the Attorney-General being a member of the House, could
not but know it; and, for the purchasers, I am informed they
took a copy of the order that we have.
The counsel again ordered to withdraw.
Mr. Speaker. I move to know what counsel you would
have. Serjeant Maynard cannot be of counsel, because he is
The Master of the Rolls. A case of 21 King James,
touching one Nichols, who had a patent about customs, was
heard here, where it was moved by Lord Coke that every
member here was of counsel for the Commonwealth. So I
would not have you assign any counsel for the Commonwealth.
We are both judges in the case, and counsel for his Highness and the Commonwealth. First examine the matter of
fact, and then see whether there be need of counsel or no.
Lord Chief-Justice Glynn. It is true we are all of counsel
for the Commonwealth; but we ill take care of it, unless we
know the case, and how can we, unless it be opened to us
on both sides.
In the case of a reversal of an attainder, a scire facias
must go out. Here the purchasers are mediately, and the
Commonweath immediately concerned. For that case of
Nichols, that was a grievance, a monopoly; so needed no
notice to the patentee. But if you hear it, altera parle, you
must, of necessity, hear it over again. Though the AttorneyGeneral be a member, yet he is not excluded from caring
and giving directions about the business.
Mr. Speaker. If you mean to give notice to the purchasers, you may as well put it off till next Parliament; for
it is impossible.
Lord Whitlock. There are five hundred purchasers, and it
is impossible to give them all notice; yet if some of them have
notice it is enough; for though they have taken a copy of
your order, yet they cannot come to plead before you without
Several persons of the Commonwealth are counsel besides
the Attorney-General and Solicitor; as those that attend
your Treasury. I would have the orders general, that counsel
may be heard on behalf of all parties; and that in the meantime it may be committed to Mr. Attorney and Mr. SolicitorGeneral.
Sir Gilbert Pickering. The purchasers have nothing to
do, as to the confiscation, whether right or wrong. They
have not an immediate, but only a consequential right to be
heard in this. I move that the counsel for the Commonwealth
may take care in it.
Mr. Speaker. As to the matter of fact, the Order is general, to hear Lord Craven's business at the bar. So that the
counsel on the other side had as much right to come here
as Lord Craven's counsel.
Colonel Shapcott. I move to have Mr. Attorney-general
and Mr. Solicitor-general called in; (they were in the Court
of Wards,) and that they may be heard now, and all the
parties concerned as purchasers, to withdraw.
Mr. Bond. I am not concerned as a purchaser of this or
any other delinquent lands: but I should as soon have bought
this land as any other; for there are many circumstances to
make out this.
Sir John Barkstead. I am no purchaser of Lord Craven's
estate; but, as the case is, either the Commonwealth, the
purchasers, or Lord Craven, must be losers, and it is as reasonable that one should be heard as another. I believe the
other parties will produce as many records and proofs as
Lord Craven's counsel do. I shall desire you, Mr. Speaker,
that a day may be appointed to hear all parties.
Colonel Cooper. This is a business of consequence; for
it is not only tending to a reversal of a judgment of Parliament, but of an Act of Parliament.
If this business thrive, it is likely you may hear more of
this kind. I would have you to assign counsel on both sides,
and not give more favour to a traitor, a delinquent, an enemy,
than you do to your friends; for your enemies cannot be concerned as purchasers.
Sir William Strickland moved, that a day might be appointed, and that counsel might be heard on all sides, if
Mr. Moody. I move only to have the Commonwealth's,
and not the purchasers' counsel. We are bound to make our
Captain Hatsel moved to appoint the counsel for the
Commonwealth positively to attend, and the purchasers, if
Sir Richard Onslow. It is clear that men may be both
judges and counsel. The judge uses in criminal cases to tell
the prisoner that he is of counsel for him. All that the purchasers could say is, they have an Act of Parliament. There
may be precedents found for reversal in such cases, upon an
appeal. I am of opinion with that honourable person, that
we are all of counsel for the Commonwealth.
Mr. Highland. An Act of Parliament is the greatest
security under Heaven. I wonder to hear it said the purchasers are not concerned. They are most concerned of all.
I have none of those lands: I bought some of them, but
sold them again, being suspicious, lest the tide should turn.
The Parliament were the only judges who were traitors,
&c. I find Craven and Stowell in the very front of the Bill
of traitors. Certainly those purchasers have the best title
under Heaven. Certainly, they ought to be heard. Lord
Craven is but accidentally concerned: and so it seems it was
accidental; for there was but one vote, and a false witness
Mr. Bodurda. I am sorry to see so little attention to this
business. If you think fit to relieve Lord Craven, there will
be cause of attention. It may concern the Commonwealth
& or 300,000l. I would have two or three solicitors appointed to prepare the business. Counsel can but do the work of
Dr. Clarges. I did observe counsel on the other side at
the door, ready to be called in, if you please. I desire that
Saturday next be appointed for the day.
Saturday was appointed.
Mr. Highland offered a petition in the case of Rodney and
Cole. (fn. 6)
Mr. Speaker. There is a cross petition, and you had
better appoint it a day; otherwise you are in for this day.
Mr. Bond and Mr. Lechmere moved, that the Bill for Marriages might be read; which has laid a long time by you.
Colonel Sydenham moved, that the petitions may be now
read; which, upon the question, was resolved.
The scope of Rodney's petition was to have an Act of Parliament to confirm the House's Resolves.
The scope of Cole's petition was, that the value of the
goods was overset above 1000l.; whereas most part of the
goods were returned in Spain, and the remainder were not
The petitions were referred to a Committee; and the Committee, to whom the petition of George Rodney and his wife
was referred, was revived to that purpose.
Colonel Shapcott moved, that the Committee might have
power to examine upon oath; but
Mr. Speaker bade take heed of that.
Sir Gilbert Pickering. I move on behalf of that reckless
person Nayler. (fn. 7) If you care not for him, so as to let him
have a keeper, he will die in your hands. His Highness has
recommended it to us (fn. 8) to move you in it.
Mr. Lechmere moved to have all private business excluded
for fourteen days; but he was taken down by Lord Strickland.
Mr. Speaker moved, that both his motion was irregular,
and he was irregularly taken down.
Mr. Lechmere. Your orders were broken, upon me, by that
Sir Christopher Pack and Lord Strickland seconded that
motion, for Nayler having a keeper with him.
Sir William Strickland moved, that Nayler might have a
keeper; but such a person as is a Quaker already; that those
that have not the plague may not be infected by him.
Mr. Grove seconded that motion, to exclude all private
business for fourteen days.
Sir Christopher Pack. It is his Highness's desire to have
a minister sent to Nayler. The truth is, he is very weak.
Major-General Skippon. I am not against sending a mi
nister to him, and would be glad to hear any thing fro
him that might encourage you finally to release him. I am
against having a Quaker go to him, or any favour at all, till
you know something more of his application to you. I fear
too much indulgence to him has hardened him in his way;
so I cannot consent to show him any favour till I find him
Colonel White moved, to leave it to the governors of Bridewell to care for necessaries for him.
Colonel Sydenham moved, that a keeper might be assigned
him by the governors of Bridewell; and a minister also, to
convince him, if it be possible.
Resolved, that a keeper be assigned him. (I neg. (fn. 9) )
It was moved that his Highness might appoint a minister.
Mr. Grove and others thought it not proper, but would
leave it to the governor.
Sir William Strickland. It is not fit that my Lord Protector's name should be used with such a miscreant's.
Mr. Bond. It is not fit to move any thing here of the
Chief Magistrate's desire; for his desires are commands.
Sir Gilbert Pickering. I move, that seeing it is his Highness's desire to appoint a minister, he might appoint one. He
best knows who is fit for that purpose.
Resolved, that a minister be admitted to him.
Mr. Godfrey moved, that you were fittest to appoint a minister, and named Mr. Caryl. (fn. 10)
Major-General Whalley. I second the motion, that all private business may be excluded for fourteen days; or a month,
rather: that you would meddle with none for a month, but
what you are already possessed of.
Colonel Clarke. This is so good a motion, that you cannot
reject it. I cannot move it for less than a month.
Mr. Bond. I move to make trial for a week; for if you
have not private business, you will have no House.
Mr. Moody moved for a month's time.
Mr. Speaker. I move that you would try it for a week;
for when private business was excluded for two months, you
did less public than when you took in private. Haply, you
may not sit a month.
Mr. Disbrowe. I am sorry that private business should be
the only reason of the House coming together. I have known
private business hinder men from coming. I mean, by excluding private business, such as have not a day fixed.
Sir Gilbert Pickering. I move that you would not exclude
private business at all, because of the difficulty to distinguish,
and you are makers of your own judgments. It is equal
that poor people that cry to you should be relieved, &c.
Resolved, that no new private business be received for fourteen days. (fn. 11)
In the Speaker's chamber sate Lady Worcester's Committee. Colonel Gorges in the chair. Adjourned till Thursday
morning, and dispatched all but a proviso for saving the
purchasers' and other estates. (fn. 12)