Saturday, February, 12, 1658–9.
Mr. Speaker took the chair at nine. Mr. Cooper prayed.
Captain Whalley moved that he was chosen for Nottingham
and Shoreham, and that a new writ might issue for Shoreham, he making his election for Nottingham.
Colonel Allured. You have vipers in your bowels, divers
delinquents. I move that they be commanded to withdraw.
You have such as have been in arms against you, and Compounders at Haberdashers' Hall; (fn. 1) and particularly one Mr.
Jones. Members in the House can prove it.
Colonel Andrews and Mr. Starkey. A good motion, but
not seasonably offered.
Mr. Reynolds. Nothing ought to intervene a fundamental order of the House, to purge your own house before any
thing else. Would you have your counsels told beyond sea
to Charles Stuart ? I know a record, that when a member
that was the King's servant discovered the debate of the
House to the King, he was turned out of the House, and sent
to the Tower.
Mr. Bodurda. I am glad the Petition and Advice is armed
with power to keep out delinquents; but there are three
Joneses in the House. He has not named what his Christian
Mr. Speaker. Mr. Streete has been with me, and he
stands upon his innocency. It may be, this gentleman has
given signal testimony.
Sir Arthur Ilaslerigge. We stand in no need of the Petition and Advice for the qualifications of the members. In
the beginning of the Long Parliament we turned out all monopolists. It is not fit those that have voted and fought
against the liberties of the people, should be here to debate
Colonel Thompson. There are several ordinances to exclude
delinquents, not only from sitting here, but from all other
places of trust.
Mr. Knightley. Being called here by Providence, I desire to know your sense about the Long Parliament, whether
it be still of force, notwithstanding the force put upon it.
A gentleman stood up and said, "This may be a mistake,
as one asked me if I was of the Parliament at Oxford; (fn. 2)
because I said I was of the Long Parliament."
It seems, it was Sir Arthur Haslerigge asked concerning
him, because he could not remember that ever he saw him
sit in the Long Parliament, and said he meant no ill in privately acquainting the gentleman with it; but he was really
of the Long Parliament, and Sir Arthur Haslerigge mistook.
Mr. Jones. I am the Attorney-general of Wales. (fn. 3) If I
might have my charge, I shall answer to it. I deny it. It
was my fortune to be in a place of trouble in Monmouth. In
February 48, you took an account of persons against you.
It was your own expression that they were forced to it. I
am not one of those persons. As I have not been in arms,
so I am not one of those. If I stand in a falsehood in the
esteem of this honourable assembly, I had rather not have
desired to be here. I have been in all offices that you delegated since that time. I have served your Protector with
life and member with as much faithfulness as any man. I
deny the whole charge, and no man alive can prove it.
Mr. Scot. If he have compounded at Haberdashers' Hall,
it is evidence enough.
Colonel Okey. Colonel Freeman and —, (fn. 4) could
Sir John Lenthall. I move to take this member that has
fully served you, to serve you in this House. I would have
the name of Cavalier buried in the Act of Oblivion.
Lord Lambert. It is not enough to serve you in those offices, unless they venture life and member. I would not
have that a precedent to bring them into this House. They
would be glad of it. They would outvote you here, and
in the counties, and shall be chosen before those that fully
served. There are more than one, or two, or three, that,
I am well informed, have lived all the time of the war
in the enemy's garrisons. Though but six now, allow this,
and you will have six score next time. After all this blood
and war, to see such an indifference as to who sits within
these walls! Ask him that question, whether he has, directly
or indirectly, aided, assisted, or abetted ?
Sir Walter Earle. I move that he be asked if he have
compounded at Haberdashers' Hall.
Mr. Hoskins. I move to hear the gentlemen of the House
that could say any thing to this business. In regard they
say nothing, appoint another day for hearing it.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I wonder to hear the Act of Oblivion mentioned. I would have the names abolished, and
men under a severe penalty to name them; but to take such
into our councils, what shall become of us ? Can we imagine
that they will not do us a thousand times more mischief;
that we shall be forced to fight the business over again. It
appears to me, that he confesses enough; but said it was
under force. Those in Wales were so numerous, that we
were forced to compound with them by the lump. He says
he is Attorney-general in South Wales, and has served you
all along. I believe the Commonwealth put him into that
place. I would have him asked if he have compounded.
Mr. Knightley. The House inclines neither to acquit him
nor condemn him. I would have him withdraw and forbear
sitting, till the matter be determined.
Mr. Starkey. I know the gentleman and something of his
case. He has served you formerly here. Since 48, he has
had signal testimony, which, if he had not been surprised, he
would have satisfied you of. If I sat not here by the Petition and Advice, I should withdraw. I know no other law
in force. I know no other law to keep out unqualified
members. The generality of the nation have taken it for their
rule. The qualifications say no otherwise than "signal testimony;" (fn. 5) and those rules invited the electors to choose that
gentleman. His employment goes a far way in giving signal
testimony. He can show you the declaration of his Highness
and Council of his signal testimony. (fn. 6) It is reasonable to
take that rule, the Petition and Advice. I desire he may
not be asked questions to accuse himself. Appoint him a
day to satisfy you.
Mr. Neville. If we had not a better law than the Petition
and Advice to sit by, we sat but by a piece of paper. You
heard it from the post, per Colonel Terrill, that without the
word "successor," the power of the Petition and Advice was
out of doors, and died with his Highness. (fn. 7) I would have this
gentleman both for his own honour and yours, to press to
have it put into a speedy way of examination by a Committee. I should do it, if it were my case.
Mr. Manley. We all ought to thank the gentleman for
that motion; but I humbly conceive there is no case before
you to debate upon. It is an unreasonable thing to bring a
man to his answer before he be accursed. This will bring
more libels upon you than you are aware of. I would have
an accusation first against him, before you proceed.
Mr. Scot. Si accusisse sufficit, quis erit innocens, nee si negare siifficit, quis erit nocens ? I would have him questioned, if
he have compounded at Haberdashers'-hall. It may be, he
never bore arms; no more did Serjeant Glanville (fn. 8) and Lord
Southampton, yet they did as much against you as those that
fought against you. If having a good place be signal testimony, it is a good requital. I believe few lawyers in England would refuse such a place. I would have some
to examine the business, and, in the mean time, to suspend his sitting. I would have him asked if he have compounded.
Mr. Speaker. You have never a charge before you against
this gentleman. If you please, refer it to a Committee,
and, in the meantime, he may withdraw.
Colonel Morley. I have taken an oath to be true and
faithful to his Highness, and also to the liberties of the people.
If I admit Cavaliers to sit here, I break my oath in both.
Sir John Northcote. Sir Richard Onslow being questioned
here for a Cavalier, it was referred to a Committee; yet he
still sat in the House, and was after, acquitted. If you go
about, upon a bare accusation, to suspend gentlemen sitting
here, you will have a thin House. I would not have him
Colonel Birch. I move for a Committee to examine the
business, and that the gentleman be suspended.
Lieutenant-general Ludlow. This is more than a bare accusation. He has confessed enough. I hear of several others.
In this juncture of affairs it is not fit to admit him.
Colonel Thompson. I would do as I would be done by. I
think a bare accusation is not enough to cause you to suspend
this gentleman. If he deny it, which I suppose he has, I
would have another question asked him. An accusation by a
member ought not to sway more with you, than a denial of a
member. If he find himself innocent, it will be his wisdom to
sit; if otherwise, to forbear. Ask him the other question.
Mr. Goodwin. Sir Richard Onslow was never accused of
delinquency. That gentleman is clearly mistaken in reporting
his case. I would have this referred to the Committee of
Privileges, to report the matter of fact: but leave it to him to
withdraw, or not withdraw.
Mr. Reynolds. Ask him two questions. 1. If he have
"abetted, advised, or assisted," (fn. 9) or have compounded ? This
will save your time. It has induced a suspicion by what he
has answered already. I would have him called to his place,
and asked these two questions.
Serjeant Waller. I would ask this question, whether it is
proper for any member thus prodere se-ipsum. Let it appear
upon the accusation.
One Gentleman stood up and said, "All that have abetted
or assisted! You will have a thin House. Many estates
were sequestrated away. I am sure of it."
Captain Baynes. It is a reflexion upon the whole House.
I am sorry to hear that said. I would have the gentleman
explain. I hear it said above, that many such are here.
Mr. Turner. I think a signal service is to be Attorneygeneral. It may be he has given over signal service; for so
your qualifications ran.
Colonel Mildmay and Colonel Okey. If that country was
under a force, they made him themselves. Wales was the
nursery of the King's cause. I would have him called down,
and asked if he have compounded.
Sir John Lenthall. It has not been my practice to trouble
you much. Your proceeding here ought to be suitable to our
Courts of Justice. If any matter be before you, proceed
upon it. I think this gentleman has given you signal testimony; so that there is not that danger of him, as is urged to
Mr. Hele. I shall never speak for protecting any delinquent, especially within these walls. No law makes a man a
Mr. Speaker. I see other things waved. It will appear
on record, in another place, if he have compounded.
Being called down.
Mr. Speaker. Asked him, if ever he compounded as a delinquent ?
Mr. Jones. I did not compound as a delinquent in arms.
There was an ordinance to qualify the composition. I did
come to Haberdashers'-hall, and, fearing to come within compass of some ordinance, it may be, I did set my hand to a
paper; but, as to being in arms or compounding other than
to prevent inconveniences for fear of the ordinance, I did not.
This said, he withdrew.
He said he sat in Parliament in 54, when there were the
same gentlemen that were here in this House.
Mr. Weaver. I wonder any person calls for the question.
The honour of this House is at stake. He has confessed
enough to draw a guilt upon him. My motion is that this
gentleman may be suspended from sitting; and to disable the
town that sent him hither, from ever sending any member
hither. I would have the electors punished; at least, for some
Parliaments, disabled. I would have Mr. Streete, that has sat
here ever since, to be now called on to make his answer, and
that a Committee be appointed to receive all complaints of
Colonel Okey. I second that motion, that he be suspended,
and the electors for ever suspended.
Mr. Nathaniel Bacon. This gentleman might, as many
have done, haply compound, to save charge; rather than
be troubled with informations.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I am sorry to hear it urged that
there are so many in this House that have aided, &c. It
seems that gentleman was admitted into the Parliament in 54,
when others were kept out. He confesses he set his hand to a
paper, though he is so wise as not to tell you for what. Haply
he compounded for an old song. He got well by his composition, a good office. I mind you what it was that he set his
hand to: to raise money for the King against you, I believe
it might be. If it had been but being present at the Com.
mittee of Array, it was enough to make him liable to composition. We must believe it was for the worst of purposes,
unless he explain.
Vote first that he may not sit as a member of this House,
during this Parliament. I hope we shall, ere we rise, take
care to keep all such out for a longer time. All the King's
army came out of Wales. Command this gentleman to forbear sitting; and do not issue out a new writ, to be further
troubled with such elections.
Mr. St. Nicholas. He has confessed a paper. Many men
have done you more harm with their heads and pens, than
with their swords.
Mr. Goodrick. I move not to exclude this gentleman till he
be heard. I come not here to plead for delinquents. Let
matters of fact be stated by a Committee. He has given
Mr. Bernard. The matter of fact is clear by his own acknowledgment. I move, if you please, that he be excluded
from sitting in this House.
Colonel Morley. He told you he did not compound out of
guilt, but to prevent inconvenience. I believe all Cavaliers
did compound, not out of guilt.
Colonel West. I move that he be excluded from sitting in
this House; but to disable those that sent him, I am against it.
Mr. Manley. I am not ripe for judgment to exclude him,
till you hear his whole answer. If it appear that the leaven
does not remain, and that he has given signal testimony, I
hope you will not suspend him.
Sir William Wheeler. No man was, by that Ordinance,
admitted to compound for a year's value, unless he put in a
petition, and by that Petition did acknowledge himself to be
a delinquent. Enough has been said. Put the question that
he be discharged from sitting in this House.
Mr. Weaver. I move for expulsion, and that for ever he
be unable to be chosen. It is argued that you would admit
him in another Parliament. I would have it entered, that
the nation may know it, that he be expelled for delinquency,
that he be for ever disabled, and that his office be taken from
Major Burton. My heart aches to see gentlemen of the
Long Robe plead for delinquents. I would have him expelled.
Captain Whalley. I move, that for the present he be excluded, and that a Committee be appointed to examine his
signal testimony, and then re-admit him.
Mr. Serjeant Seys. I would have signal testimony explained. He has not cause to complain of the loss of a place
of 600l. per annum. He rides into six counties, and has hot
twenty nobles per annum. I second that motion of Captain
Whalley, who has prevented what I could say.
Mr. Secretary. I think the matter is plain by his confession. What should you then refer? I agree with the
highest proposal, that he be expelled for the present, and disabled for the future from sitting here, before the Parliament
have declared that he had given signal testimony. He might
have forborne. I would have you spend no more time about it.
Colonel Morley. I would have not only his discharge, but
his crime entered upon your books.
Resolved, that Mr. Edward Jones, returned to serve as a
member for the county of Brecon in this present Parliament,
be, for his delinquency, expelled this House, and for ever
disabled from sitting in any other Parliament.
Mr. Bamgfield. I move for a new writ to issue out.
Colonel White. I would have this addition to his punishment, that he be sent to the Tower for presuming to sit here.
Colonel Kenrick stood up to second that motion.
Major Burton. I move not to put it off so lightly. Many
that hear me, would have something more than ordinary.
That is a poor punishment.
Mr. Bodurda. I have that to acquaint you with, which is
much for your service. A gentleman that has led a regiment
of dragoons against you. I have some difficulty upon me to
name him. Some call him Mr. Danvers, some Mr. Villiers. (fn. 10)
Mr. Ashe. It has pleased God to take out of the world a
gentleman, Mr. John, Ashe, who was able to have made good
this information. Sir John Danvers did then acknowledge
him to be a Papist in arms, I thought.
Mr. Danvers. I must first answer totally this charge.
Some of that name I left, because I would not be under
suspicion. I utterly deny all aiding, abetting, or assisting.
Mr. John Ashe was my competitor. I was questioned by
the Major-generals. I have their discharge from under their
hands, Sir Thomas Widdrington, Sir John Barkstead, and
Major-general Bridges. The Colonel cleared me with a testimony that I was no delinquent. I have not this ready to
produce about me. Calumnio data, something sticks. I desire, if guilty, that I may have signal punishment; if not so,
that I may prosecute, and that I may have reparation.
Mr. Knightley. That gentleman told me he had great
favour from the King, and that he had a regiment. He told
me, though he had been bred a Papist, he considered the fooleries of that religion. Sir John Danvers desired that he
might have a regiment to go into Spain. An ill way of conversion I told him it was, to go into Spain. This wrought
with Sir John Danvers, whose daughter he married. He
had the favour to come to a composition, against the order
that a Papist in arms could not be admitted to compound.
Here I left him in 48. How he has demeaned himself since,
I know not.
Mr. Dancers. I was but seventeen years old. I do flatly
deny delinquency. Sir John Danvers might confess it.
Money was paid by him for it. I felt it. I deny all, the
least punctilio. It was no act of my own. They were faults
that other people will lay upon me when I was in my minority. My mother was of that religion and I lived amongst
them. Thence came Sir John Danvers to tell stories.
Mr. Knightley. This story that Sir John Danvers told
me, was in the gentleman's own presence; and he then said
nothing to the contrary.
Mr. Jenkinson. It was told me by Colonel Legge, that
this gentleman had a regiment in the King's army.
Mr. Raleigh. The gentleman has misrepresented. This
makes me suspect some guilt. He says Sir John Danvers,
to his great prejudice, did compound for him. It cannot be
probable that for one that married his daughter, and one of
the heirs to him, he would misspend his money in paying so
much for his composition.
Mr. Weaver. This gentleman came several times in this
Parliament. He was a Papist in arms, and so disabled; but
Sir John Danvers did move that Mr. Marshall (fn. 11) should confer with him, and having conferred, he brought a note to this
table from Mr. Marshall, and by the favour of this House he
was admitted to compound.
Mr. Knightley. Sir John Danvers told me, that this gentleman had behaved himself so well in the King's army, that
he had a regiment.
Mr. Grove. This gentleman was chosen for a place in the
County for which I serve. He came a month before the
election to that place, and made the electors drunk every day
with sack. It cost him, they say, 100l. to be chosen; (fn. 12) and
if you do justice, he will have an ill bargain of it.
Colonel Mildmay. You ought to appoint a Committee,
because he denies the matter of fact.
Mr. Starkey. The matter of fact is proved sufficiently.
So I would not only have him excluded, but have a good fine
upon his head; because he seems to desire it.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I wonder at the gentleman's confident denial; the matter being so clear. I am for the honour,
justice, and safety of this House. I would not have any man
complain of injustice. I apprehend him not, at present, fit to
sit in this House; but, it being not clear, let your books be
searched, and it will be found whether he or his guardian compounded. It will appear by Colonel Legge's testimony.
Suspend him for the present, and refer it to a Committee;
and not only this, but all matters of this nature; that the
great business of the nation may not be hindered: for all business must give place to that of your purging your House.
Mr. Jenkinson. I saw the gentleman so confident to outface a worthy member, else I had not troubled you in this
business. Colonel Legge told me that he told the Majorgeneral of it. It was Major-general Packer.
Major-general Packer. I know this business, throughout.
This gentleman, among several others, was accused in the
County of Bucks. There was great trouble about scanning
his business. It was said Colonel Legge could speak fully to
it. I sent for Colonel Legge and examined it. He was very
cautious, and was under some fear: but Legge did say, he had
a regiment of foot in Oxford, and his Major, if called, would
justify it. He answered he was under age. He brought
down several certificates. He did submit to something, some
kind of composition.
Mr. Humphrys. Within these three days the minister of
Wickham, where this gentleman lives, sent a note in to me,
and said it was a grievance to good spirits that such a person
sat in this House. He had never been at church since he was
minister. He frequented a private meeting, being a Cavalier.
A jesuited fellow, to get a certificate from you, that he might
not be decimated! When he had got that certificate he presently scowled and derided you. None dare prosecute against
such, who cares not to spend 1,000l. upon any man that shall
vex him. There is matter enough to prove him a very unworthy person to sit in this House.
Mr. Stephens. This business is clearer than the other. I
was in the chair at Goldsmith's-hall. He was admitted to
compound, upon a certificate that he had conformed. I am
informed that since the purgation before the Major-general, he
did pay 100l. for his purgation. I desire the Major-general
may be asked if he received not 100l. of him.
Mr. Reynolds. He denied it a second time. I would
have it that he who is so confident to affirm in this House an
untruth, should have a signal punishment. He that affirms
any thing here, does it in as high a place as if he swore before
any Court of Record. I would have him not only expelled,
but sent to the Tower.
Mr. Knightley. As I understood the gentleman, I heard
a challenge for any man to prosecute; and he would have an
action at law against him. This was to terrify men.
Major-general Packer. He has a discharge for that part
of his estate in Bucks; and did pay such a sum of money, I
believe, for his discharge.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. This is the first time that ever I
heard a gentleman deal so notoriously disingenuously with
you. I would have you pass two questions:—
1. That he be expelled this House for his delinquency.
2. That he be sent to the Tower for affirming in this
House what was not truth, and so let it be entered upon
Majors-general. Bridge. He petitioned his Highness, and
his Highness, referred it to Lord Widdrington, Sir John
Barkstead and myself. He affirmed that one Villiers had a
regiment, but that Danvers had it he denied. We had several certificates as to his reformation, and we reported according to those certificates.
Mr. Ashe. There is a Colonel at the door, who can make
this information good if you please to call him. Colonel
Touchett is his name.
Serjeant Maynard. The gentleman has withdrawn. He
should sit, when you call in evidence against him, or ask
questions in order to the debate.
Sir John Lenthall. Neither Colonel Legge nor Colonel
Touchett are competent witnesses, unless Upon their oaths.
Touchett is a papist, or, being turned from that religion, may
be wronged in his testimony, and then you may refer it to a
Mr. Reynolds. I move to leave it to your discretion to ask
Mr. Knightley. We never examine upon oath; but, as he
ought, as if upon oath. I have known a person disabled from
bearing testimony for misinforming this House, keeping his
Mr. Cartwright. In regard he positively denies it, I
would have it referred to a Committee; because you have
testimony offered. None says aught what he did but Sir
John Danvers. He tells you be was but seventeen years old.
I have known him a long time that he has lived here.
Colonel More. It is my duty to inform my knowledge.
When I was governor of Monmouth Castle, he desired a pass
from me to go to London. He did take the negative voice in
45, and I granted him that pass. Lady Hatton lay then a
dying. I heard he took up arms with Sir Robert Howard in
Ludlow Castle. He told you, he had under the Major-general's hand testimony to dear him. You find it proved,
otherwise, against him.
Mr. St. Nicholas. I move not to call in Colonel Touchett.
You -weaken your testimony.
Mr. Bodurda. I move that he be expelled the House, and
sent to the Tower, and fined 100l.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. A papist is a sufficient testimony,
a competent juryman. [ would have Touchett called in, to
convince him. I would have him called in, and, likewise, the
gentleman called down to hear it.
Mr. Foxwist. There may be a witness which may alter the
whole question. It may be a device; but I think it is clear
enough your judgment is ripe.
Captain Hatsell. This will hear well abroad, that you
have vindicated the old cause. I would have the business
fully heard, that he may have nothing to say against the
judgment; and that others may see it and take example by
it. I move that both be called in.
Colonel Touchett being called in, and Mr. Danvers called
down. Mr. Touchett, at the bar, stood, and Mr. Danvers
Mr. Touchett said, he had been acquainted twenty years
with him. He was acquainted with him in Shropshire.
We quartered together. I was captain of a troop of horse.
I know not what command he had then. After, I saw him
marching in the head of a regiment of foot, towards Bridgenorth.
He said this was the gentleman, when he looked in his
Mr. Danvers. I shall humbly add further that I may
have leave to fetch papers that will clear me. They trace me
all along, where I lived.
I never saw this gentleman to my knowledge. It is hard
to prove a negative. I came to Colonel More. He can tell
you how I came away from those parts. I know not what I
paid for composition. To the Major-general I paid nothing,
only 150l, for horses. I freely desired to give it.
I had had once to have gone for Ireland, under his Highness; listed under Colonel Martin. I should have had a
troop of horse. I deny that I ever was in the head of a regiment. My mother was violent that way. I suffered much
for asserting the Parliament's cause. She might have raised
a regiment. I never had a command. I do detest it. I
never saw it.
He being withdrawn, the question was put.
Mr. Fowell moved not only to expel him, but to send him
to the Tower, and fine him 1000l.
Mr. Hungerford. I move to hear his papers and what he
can say. He told you he gave nothing for his purgation but
money, to show good affections. I speak knowingly of gentlemen that did subscribe horses and money for affection and
not purgation. He was young, carried about by his mother.
I desire we may be able to give a good account of our
justice. I would have a Committee appointed, not only to
examine this business, but all business of this nature.
Colonel West. This gentleman was mistaken in this testimony. There is nothing so clear, nor any thing to hinder it
going to the question.
Major-general Packer. He changed his name at that time,
and desired that he might leave that infamous name. He offered freely to lay down money to advance the service, and
he had as fair a certificate as could be on that behalf, and because of those certificates from above.
Lieutenant-general Ludlow. I would not have him for ever
disabled from sitting. I like not his reflections on his mother
and family. I would have no further punishment upon him
than that he may not sit in this House.
Mr. Manley. I acknowledge myself to be of the Long
Robe; yet not to plead any delinquent's cause. (fn. 13) I humbly,
submit it, if you should not hear any thing offered. It will
be for the honour of this House to hear all that can be said.
I would have a Committee.
Mr. Higgins. He was never a delinquent since he came
from the government of his mother, when he was not at age.
It is contrary to the justice of all courts, to condemn unheard.
I would have his certificate produced, to clear up his assertions.
Mr.— He avers his affection to the Parliament
and lays all the blame on his mother's conduct. He says he
has papers that will make out where he has been.
Mr. Knightley. Seeing it is so far insisted upon, I would
have a Committee. His negative papers will not wash off
his affirmative delinquency. He went under the name of
Colonel Villiers a long time. Seeing you will go to a further
punishment, I would have it examined. I have been called
a delinquent over and over, in this House.
Colonel Okey. I move not to exclude this gentleman utterly. Captain Morgan was at Oxford, and is now faithful
to us and on our service, and he may come to do you service.
Mr. Stephens. I was against utter disabling in the other
case, because I would not have you meddle with after Parliaments. They will meddle with you. I would have you
be equal now, and not disable one more than another.
Mr. Reynolds moved to the same purpose.
Serjeant Maynard moved to divide the question.
Mr. Speaker would not without requirement mention the,
name Danvers, for there is an heir male that claims, and
would not have a patent to change his name to disinherit
Sir Walter Earle. You cannot disable him for ever, but
by an Act of Parliament. If he be chosen next Parliament,
they may receive him.
Major-general Kelsey. I hope that you will severely punish those that come in on the presumption of their own good
affections. It will prevent men from intruding for the future.
I would have him for ever discharged.
Colonel Morley. It is an old rule, that those that belong
to one thing, should be put both in one case. He says his
mother raised the men, and Sir John Danvers paid the money.
Mr. Knightley. I would not have a negative in this punishment. I would have the question divided.
Resolved, that the clause be added.
Resolved, that Mr. Robert Villiers, returned by the name
of Robert Danvers, to serve as a member for the borough of
Westbury, be, for his delinquency, expelled this House, and
disabled from sitting in this or any future Parliament. (fn. 14)
Colonel Cromwell. I move that he be sent to the Fleet.
Major-general Kelsey, I move to send him to the Tower,
to lie till he pay 1000l.
Mr. Fowell seconded that motion.
Lieutenant-general Ludlow. I would have a Committee
appointed to examine all matters of this nature.
Mr. Stephens moved for the Tower, but not for the
Lieutenant-general Ludlow. The other gentleman was of
full age; this, under age. I would have you to make the
case no other.
Mr. Bodurda. I would only have him sent to the Tower
during pleasure, but not fined. Let others look for the
1000l. that will sue for it.
Colonel— (fn. 15) I would have no more severity upon
him. You have laid more than the infliction of a fine. You
have deprived him of the natural liberty of an Englishman.
A person offending in infancy must be differenced from one
in ripe age.
Colonel Kenrick. Nothing was said against him for fourteen years. He told you he went for bread. He was not
likely to raise a regiment in infancy. I would have no further punishment upon him. You have done well.
Colonel Okey. If this gentleman had acted any thing since
fourteen years, I should not have troubled you. I would
have you go no further in punishment.
Mr. Starkey. An easy punishment to go only out, and
not have a further punishment.
Colonel Birch moved to send him to the Tower, but not
for the 1000l. fine.
Mr. Steward. My hearty yea went with you for the privative punishment; but I cannot go to the positive punishment, unless you will acknowledge the Petition and Advice
to be a law. Then the law makes it plain. I know no
Mr. St. Nicholas. You have power to make a law. I
would have you go no farther in this; but make it so penal
for the future. No doubt you may make what rule you
Mr. Gewen. Every aggravation is in this man's offence:
the testimony of the minister, (fn. 16) his carriage here, to oppose the
members. Make the punishment suitable to the person. He
is a great man. I would have him in the Tower and fined.
Mr. Barton. It was a rule of the Star Chamber to proceed upon estates. We ought to proceed upon persons.
When the offence was committed, he had no estate. This.
House have always been tender of pecuniary mulcts. Five
or ten pounds was a great fine in formertimes. The offence
was fourteen years since. He has laboured to give all testimony. He has paid for his offence by his composition. I
would not have him punished again. Let us not be over
rigorous, lest it be afterwards brought here to our prejudice.
Mr. Disbrowe. All punishment should be proportionable
to the offence. The offence of this person is greater than the
other's. His asserting positively against an affirmation in
Parliament, is not singly a cause of his imprisonment. I
would have him sent to the Tower.
It being propounded, that it be further added to his punishment, that he be committed to the Tower, to continue
during the pleasure of the Parliament,—
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I move that his offence in denying the truth, be inserted in the additional punishment.
Lord Lambert. The other offence is sufficient to send him
to the Tower. I would have the other gentleman also sent
to the Tower. It was prevented by interposing this business.
Otherwise it was in debate to send the other gentleman to the
Colonel Clark. I would have the difference of the offence
assigned. Otherwise the one punishment is not adequate to
the offence. You cannot manifest your justice to the world
else. The offence of Mr. Villiers is inferior to that of Mr.
Jones. I would have you assert some other crime against
Mr. Villiers. I would have you either do no more to this
man, or assign some other offence.
Major Beak. There is no disparity in his age. It was
not in the infancy of your war. He was pregnant in his
parts and powerful in his interest, though but tender, in his
years. This tends to the distinction of your business. Let
him be exemplary in his punishment. Send him to the
Tower, and fine him 1000l.
Mr. Mitford. The latter gentleman is a higher offender
than the first. The first did ingenuously acknowledge it.
This peremptorily denied.
The first was an offence against the Commonwealth.
The second offence was against order; and his disingenuity
as much as the first. I would have him committed to the
Mr. Scot. I hope I shall not be suspected a delinquent,
but I cannot make a difference of offence. He could not become other principled than as he acknowledges. I have been
twenty times in his company, and heard him strongly defend
the Parliament's cause. He hastened into your bosom. He
was always your zealous champion. I would have no further
Colonel Morley. Either lay them both aside, or let them
both go together.
Colonel Eyre. I think you have inflicted the greatest punishment that could be. My own knowledge of this person
was before the King's death. I never knew any man, in all
his discourses, fly so highly in the King's face. I have heard
him say, rather than execution be not done upon him, he
would do it himself; calling him traitor, tyrant, and the like;
strongly arguing it against that interest.
Sir Richard Temple. I move, that we may have the more
unanimity, to lay both aside. There are different judgments.
I would have the punishment adequate to the crime: not to
the person or any thing that is collateral.
Mr. Sadler. I have no desire to trouble you. I consent
with those that say there is inequality in the punishment. It
is said, go on and prosper. I say, go on and prosper; but
in truth and because of truth, in righteousness and meekness.
He that will not use mercy in judgment, shall have judgment
without mercy. Make a law, and I should be clearer in it.
I thought it true that he had a regiment; but I thought it
also true that Sir John Danvers said he was forced. You
have now dismembered him, and he is no more a member of
your House. He may desire to be heard, and appeal to your
justice. He was approved by those Major-generals, and had
fair certificates. I would not have this case to differ from the
Mr. Sampfield. I would not have you, while you punish
him, put a further punishment upon yourselves by sitting so
The question being put, if the question be now put.
Mr. Speaker declared for the Noes.
Colonel Cromwell and Sir Thomas Barnardiston declared
for the Yeas.
The Noes went out.
Noes 145. Sir Thomas Beaumont and Major-general
Yeas 112. Sir William Wheeler and Mr. Pedley, Tellers.
So it passed in the negative.
Mr. Weaver. I am loth to trouble you now, after the best
day's work you did yet.
I hope you will make a Committee to receive all Petitions.
Divers petitions are abroad, and cannot get in. I would not
put it upon you now; but that you would proceed upon it
on Monday next.
Major Beake and others moved to read the order for the
great debate, in order to the adjournment of it.
Mr. Collins. The witnesses lie in town at a great charge.
I would have you appoint a day for hearing him. (fn. 17)
Major-general Kelsey and Colonel Kenrick seconded to
proceed in this. They that take away rubbish contribute as
much as those that build.
Colonel Birch. I never knew any thing prevent a matter
of this nature. I would have Mr. Streete make his answer
Mr. Streete stood up to make his defence, but the Petition
was called for first.
Sir Richard Temple. I hope the honour of this House
shall never suffer by an implicit faith. I would have no
Committee appointed, but refer all to the Committee of Privileges. I would have the great debate put on.
Mr. Bodurda. I move to put this business first off your
hands, and if he have a copy of the Petition, let him answer
Mr. Streete. This is the first time that ever I was accused
of any crime public or private. I am glad, with Paul, that I
have for my judges the representatives of three nations. I
need neither fear your justice nor honour.
There are two parts in the charge:—
1. As to myself.
2. As to my election.
1. That I was in arms. My father sent me to Oxford
where I continued till February, 44. My mother sent for me
to manage the estate at fifteen years. I returned to that City
of Worcester then. I was neither sequestrated, decimated,
nor secured. I hope to clear this by five hundred testimonies.
For my being a papist, as some swear, I hope by honourable
persons of this House to clear myself.
2. As to my election. I sent to my colleague when I was
invited to stand, Mr. Moore, now my malicious prosecutor. I
was chosen by men of honesty and faithfulness. Persons
were appointed to except against any they pleased. Before
tendering the poll, I prefaced that persons against me might
stand by and except. I will acquaint you with the quality
of the prosecutors. Neither mayor, alderman, nor commoncouncilmen, but only six of the common men, most of them
alms-men. We offered a certificate from the substantial and
well-affected citizens of Worcester.
An exemplar of piety, well endowed with learning, hath
never aided, assisted, nor abetted against the Parliament, lived
peaceably, given signal testimony, contributed to all taxes,
duly elected, and duly returned. The Petition as to his uncapableness, altogether untrue. His prosecutor received
money to prosecute. Divers hands to the Petition deny it.
Poor alms people signed it. (fn. 18)
I pray to be admitted to disprove the Petition, and to answer the charge, and let justice be done.
Mr. Collins. On my own knowledge he was found as
a person in arms. He said the mayor and aldermen were not
The charge was read.
Mr. Collins. I saw much at the election. Some persons
were there in arms, some papists, and men that received
alms. The sheriff had two or three persons that tendered
their oaths to prove his being in arms; but the sheriff refused
it, saying he had no power: which I suppose he had not. I
would have a special Committee to examine the fact.
Colonel Clark moved for a special Committee.
Serjeant Maynard. I would have it referred to the Committee of Privileges; lest the House be troubled every day
with matters of this nature.
Mr. Turner. I move that they attend the Committee of
Privileges, in regard it concerns a disability of an Election.
Mr. Weaver. They will not, in two months come to a
hearing. I would have a special Committee.
Mr. Knightley. More reports come in this Parliament
from the Committee of Privileges, than ever did in so many
days. If all the witnesses be not in town, let it be ten days
Mr. Streete. I pray for postponement till Monday sennight for my witnesses to come to town. It is eighty-seven
Mr. Collins. My witnesses are here at charge, and it is
hard to attend a week longer.
Mr. Neville. Let us do justice. Though the. witnesses be
at charge, they needed not have come up till a day assigned.
Lord Lambert. I move, to prevent charge, to hear witnesses ex parte.
Sir Walter Earle. It is fit the witnesses be confronted. I
would have both parties and witnesses to attend. I would
have the person to withdraw.
Ordered, that on Tuesday sennight the Committee of Privileges do take into consideration the Petition against Mr.
Streete, and the whole business.
Sir Walter Earle and Mr. Bodurda moved to hear the
great business, sine die.
Mr. Bampfield moved for a new election where the parties
Mr. Weaver. I would have the electors ever disabled.
Colonel Morley seconded the motion.
Serjeant Maynard. There is no charge against the electors. We may be as guilty for suffering them to sit here a
Mr. Knightley. It was never denied but when Parliament
sat at Oxford. (fn. 19) This House suspended for a time; but to
disable counties, is of dangerous consequence.
Sir John Carter. It is a reflection upon the whole county.
Very honest parties are in those counties. We did service
in England as well as Wales. Let them have a new writ.
It was always cried, "Order it ! "whenever it was moved.
Major-general Kelsey. I move for a new election in Serjeant Glanville's (fn. 20) place.
Ordered, that a new writ be issued out for Brecknock in
Mr. Edmund Jones's place.
Ordered, the like for New Westbury, in Wiltshire, instead
of Mr. Danvers.
Ordered, the like for St. Germain's in Cornwall, in Serjeant
Mr. Turner. Two members are dead in law, and one in
fact. There is one Mr. Hill chosen for Old Sarum. I move
that a new writ issue out in his stead.
Ordered the like in Mr. Ashe's place. (fn. 21)
It was moved again to take the great business into debate.
Mr. Neville moved that the Petitioners the other day at the
door, be heard on Monday; but nothing would be admitted
to bar the great debate adjourned to Monday.