Wednesday, March 9, 1658–9.
The House met, at almost twelve.
Mr. Speaker took the chair.
Mr. Scot stood up to speak to the debate about the Scotch
and Irish members, but was taken down.
Mr. Trevor, to the orders of the House. I move that for
your safety, you would, till you recover your health, for a
week's time appoint another in your place. I move for Sir
It was moved that it was never used to appoint another
Speaker, while another was in the chair.
Mr. Fowell said that in the case of Sir Thomas Widdrington, another was chosen while he was in the chair; but
that case differed. It was upon his desire. (fn. 1)
Mr. Speaker. I desire to be discharged. I am sorry I
should retard your business one half hour. (fn. 2)
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I move that by no means he be
discharged; but only for a time, to recover his health.
It was always the care of this House to choose one that
was no way influenced by the Court. I shall name a fit person (though not of the Long Robe) Mr. Knightley.
Mr. Knightley. I am of the wrong Robe; this is more like
a weed than a garment that I have. I have worn a gown at
the University and the Inns of Court, but never had the
honour. (fn. 3)
I make it my humble motion that you would not put that
burthen upon one of so short a robe and so short a measure.
He that made that chair made it with strong arms, knowing
the weight of it. I have both infirmity of mind and body to
make me incapable.
Mr. Speaker, by leave of the House, left the chair, and
went home to his own House, (fn. 4) very ill.
Sir Anthony Ashley Cooper. I move that, till mace come
in, none can speak.
Others moved, that last Parliament, and this Parliament,
the House did choose their Speaker before the mace was on
Others again said, "You are a House without a Speaker."
Sir Arthur Haslerigge moved again for Mr. Knightley.
Colonel Fitx James put the question for Sir Lislebone
Long, but was denied.
Sir Lislebone Long. I know no incapacity upon me to serve
you as a member, but many incapacities to serve you in that
chair. I am beholden to Sir Arthur Haslerigge, that told me
of my incapacity.
The person propounded has much more experience than I;
and if he decline it, there are many fitter than I.
Sir Anthony Irby moved for Sir Lislebone Long.
Sir Anthony Ashley Cooper. As Sir Lislebone Long was
first propounded, he must be first put. Therefore I would
have the question put for his supplying the chair for a week.
Mr. Bulkeley. Seeing you are agreed of the person, put
the time indefinite; viz. till the Speaker shall be in a condition to serve you there again.
Mr. Scot moved against it.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I was against Sir Lislebone Long's
coming to the chair; but we must look to him as well as we
No member can put any question other than for taking the
chair, and the person pitched upon ought to obey the sense of
the House, and of himself, without the ceremony of leading,
to go to the chair.
Sir Walter Earle. The ceremony of leading is not Parliamentary.
Sir Lislebone Long, in obedience thereunto, was coming
along to the chair, but Mr. St. John and Mr. Gerrard came
up and led him, and he took the chair at one.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge moved to enter this order, viz:—
Ordered, that in respect of Mr. Speaker's indisposition of
body, and at his earnest request, Sir Lislebone Long be desired
to take the chair in his absence, occasioned by his said indisposition of health, until he shall recover his health, and no
longer. (fn. 5)
It was moved to adjourn for an hour.
Mr. Scot. I move to adjourn till to-morrow, else to hear
me speak to the question upon which the House was in debate before, about the Scotch and Irish members. I hope
those gentlemen will.be sensible of their inconveniency by intruding into our legislature.
In the Long Parliament all monopolizers were turned out. (fn. 6)
We are not come to rags and papers, but we are already come
to stones, sand, and ballast. (fn. 7)
The claim of this question was made the first day, (fn. 8) and
has been often claimed upon several occasions.
The question is, if it be not now seasonable to settle this.
I am of opinion that Scotland and Ireland should be repre
sented, nor do I except against the distribution. I would
have Jamaica (fn. 9) represented, and all the parts of England
equally represented, better than now. (fn. 10) We are little beholden to the last Parliament, to leave us to such an unequal
election and distribution.
It is said, it is not ingenuity now to question it If I find
not ingenuity, I am not so obliged.
First you would have a single person bounded; and then
let go the bounds. (fn. 11) The like of another House; thus gaining from bough to bough, till they be out of the distance of
We are not to compliment now, when the life and liberty
of the nation is at stake. Paul thought, when his life lay at
stake, he might lawfully make a division in the council by
saying he was a Pharisee. (fn. 12)
Salus populi is above all rules. I may take hold of that
to save a sinking perishing nation.
We all say the Protector is Chief Magistrate in exercitio,
possession, and occupancy. It is not owned that he is in by the
Petition and Advice. It appears not so to you. You have
the best title, being in possession, and you may give him the
best title that ever King of England had.
Because there is an intimation in the Petition and Advice
to summon members for Scotland and Ireland, therefore it
is said, they must be called to sit here. By the same rule,
there was an intimation to have a House of Lords, therefore a Lords' House was called. Therefore it is a good
Lords' House, and therefore those gentlemen are good members, by the same rule.
I cannot understand that the law should be by any such
intendment. Again:—I would have none to serve either for
England, Scotland, or Ireland, but natives; not but that
they can speak the language. I say not otherwise.
My motion therefore is, that those gentlemen may withdraw till this question about the other House be passed;
and then I shall as freely as any man give my vote to declare
their right of sitting with us. (fn. 13)
Mr. Drake. That motion is disorderly, incongruous, and
disingenuous, that the persons who have attended this debate
nine days should withdraw; after you had called all out
of the chambers.
It is proceeding without an example, to fall into new
matter when a question is half put.
It is irregular. While you are debating about members
of another House, you fall into debate who are members of
your own House.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. Nought is so proper in the midst
of any debate. I appeal to you, now you are in the chair.
If I see but one man in this House that ought not to sit, it is
a fundamental order to examine that person's fitness before
you do any thing.
I was, in the interval of a Parliament, called up to another
House. I durst not go without your consent, nor will I
go out from hence unless you beat me out; I mean, command
Consider the case of King (fn. 14) and Mr. Sadler. (fn. 15) This is the
same case. If this be not to the order of the House, then the
House is without order, which cannot be. Is it fit that those
that have no right nor foundation should legify amongst
us ? As was moved before, by the same rule that sixty are
brought in now, three hundred may be brought in next time.
Colonel Fielder took him down, but it was not admitted;
for he did speak to the orders of the House, and he began
with it, and would conclude to the orders of the House.
He cited the case of the five members. (fn. 16)
Mr. Trevor. It is a constant order of the House, that no
new matter should come in, in the midst of a debate. It is
utterly unseasonably moved. I beseech you, go on to the
question that is before you.
Sir Richard Temple. Last night I gave you my reason
why this was not irregular, by a precedent frequently
exercised here. (fn. 17) If any gentleman come in between affirmative and negative, any gentleman may move that he withdraw. This is as to a rightful member; a fortiori, he
that is no member, or his being a member disputable. Any
thing offered you concerning your privilege, is never unseasonable.
There are divers gentlemen that sit here that have no right
to sit. Formerly it was waved, because we were unanimous
in our debate, and but a few of those members yet come
over. (fn. 18) The best authority they have is but by implication.
If the affirmative were put, you might, even before the
negative were put, fall into debate of your privilege, it being
a fundamental order. Besides, another question, touching
your being called to the chair, has intervened, so that any
man is free to make any new motion.
Mr. Knightly. Vigilantibus, non dormientibus, subveniunt
leges. The addition of one destroys as well as the substraction
of one. Add one to 11, and it destroys the number, as well
as to make them 19.
This debate about the Lords has been a great rock, and
will be, till we come to a constitution.
These members come here without any semblance of a
law. There is no colour of law for their distribution.
The Chief Magistrate may create a borough.
There are six boroughs in Northamptonshire that have no
right to send members: viz. Wellingborough, Kettering, &c.
I would have these persons, to have a right to sit here, or
else to have Parliaments of their own. I will reflect upon
none. Many persons that sit here for those places are very
worthy and have done great service. I shall deliver no
opinion in this case, but the debate is proper before you.
Colonel Cromwell. Mr. Scot has reflected upon them as
rubbish; ballast, &c. (fn. 19)
The debate was improperly moved. Some exception lies
against persons that now sit here. Besides. those members,
one I see in my eye (fn. 20) that has no right to sit. Again,
divers have not taken the oath. (fn. 21) I would have this debate
waved, and the question put.
Mr. Scot. I meant not of the persons, but that there was
monopoly upon the ballast. I honour the persons.
Mr. St. Nicholas. I am but a learner of your orders; yet
I take it to be according to a constant order that this debate
comes properly before you. Did you not, in the case of Mr.
Jones, (fn. 22) declare that a case of privilege should be preferred
before any other debate.
I move to do justa, juste. Many exceptions have been
made against laws passed in this House. Let us have no
more. The claim was made before; (fn. 23) I would have you now
proceed upon it, being properly before you. If you please,
I would have a bill brought in to declare their rights.
Colonel Birch. If this question had not been moved
before, it had been otherwise. This was made when you
were in debate of the single person; and then it was waved,
when the question was not half put. For the very cause that
was moved in the case of Paul, (fn. 24) he thought it prudence
to raise a quarrel in the council; this comes in bare-faced as
a quarrel. I hope he (fn. 25) does not compare this council to that
Colonel White. I am glad this debate comes before you.
I wish it had not come unseasonably, but I am sure it is
now seasonably before you. If you admit them to sit, it is
destructive to the very foundation of this House. If they
sit, neither by that common law nor custom, how can they
sit ? It destroys your being.
If this vote be carried, and the consequence prove bad,
or prove it good, it will be said it was done, coram non judice,
by persons that had no right to sit. I would have you,
before you put any other question, put this question, whether
the members for Ireland and Scotland have any right to
Mr. Bodurda. If this debate be admitted, where will it
end ? The next debate will be, about those that have not
taken the oath. Then, about those whose elections are questionable.
Almost sixty of England are in dispute, and some of them
determined by your Committee of Privileges, which is your
greatest Committee. All those reports must be taken in,
before you proceed.
It may be added, that charges are depending against some
members, and charges ready to be offered against others.
This cannot be denied more than the other.
I hope none of these attempts to divide this House will prevail. Attempts to divide this from the other House; none
of those have yet prevailed. I hope none of these will.
Mr. Morrice. It will be an inexcusable thing in you to admit a vote to those that have no tongue.
This question has been long in the womb. I wish it may
not prove, when it is born, like Richard III. born with teeth.
First settle your own House before the other.
The wisdom of prevention is better than that of remedy.
We ought first to clear the fountain.
Many sit here to whom we may say, as the king said to him
not having his wedding garment on. (fn. 26)
It may be, they will not be speechless, but say they come
in on the Petition and Advice.
Not one gentleman of the long robe has categorically said
this Petition and Advice is a law. They have argued, ab
incommodo, which is no argument.
If I should undertake to determine law, I should be checked with a ne sutor ultra, crepidam.
Admit it, ex hypothesi, to be a law, yet if the distribution— (fn. 27)
Sylvius, his Empleden, has taught me to wish that those
three sticks were all bundled together.
If we are inseparable, we are insuperable, but it must be an
Act of Parliament that must settle them. And I question
whether it must not also have an Act of their own Parliaments.
I look upon his Highness as a planet of most high and benign influence.
Periculosum est, facere quod non decet.
If the Chief Magistrate may arbitrarily and absolutely call
whom he pleases, he may call what number, and from what
place he pleases.
It is the Pope's policy to have as many Bishops in Italy as
in any other place, to carry on his interest.
There is no law either of God or man for these persons to
sit. I would have them withdraw, till you have passed this
Serjeant Maynard. My learned countryman has made you
a fine posy this morning. I grant inseparable is insuperable:
but how this is applicable to Scotland and Ireland, if you exclude them, I understand not.
When an addition is put to a question, you can put nought,
till the main question be put. You ought to proceed to the
I am one of those that are very tender to affirm the Petition
and Advice for a law, but I say it is as much a law as any
that have been made of late. It is a Parliament must determine this. Judges upon their oaths, and Justices of Peace
upon their oaths, act upon these laws. You come hither
upon that law. I know no honest man can, otherwise, without future hazard, act upon any of these laws.
Whether what I offer please or displease, it comes from a
heart that intends it for your service.
Have not you called yourselves the Parliament of England,
Scotland and Ireland? Have not you called your Chief
Magistrate so ?
You are a Parliament by remitter. You take upon you to
bind those nations by the laws you make here. Will you
have none here to represent them? Is this just ?
Anciently, kings sent to Scotland to send burgesses hither. (fn. 28)
Whether they sat or no, I know not. So from Calais and
Anglesea. Both Houses sat together. (fn. 29) The Chief Magistrate might call who he pleased. In the 33 Edward I. he
called from Ireland.
These are called by writ. They are united to us: Scotland
and Ireland, I mean.
Such a confusion is upon us, I know not, for my part, how
to get out of it. Let us go to peace; not to contend with
Interest will lead very far.
You outed forty monopolizers. (fn. 30) Many things have been
done. Divers persons have turned out members in a strange
way. I shall not stir up; but press unity. I have not said
all that I might say. I cannot tell what they say of us
abroad. (fn. 31) We have put ourselves into such a condition, that
we know not which way to go. I know not to what misery
and misfortune we are going.
I know no other remedy but to put the question to the
vote, as it is before you, and wave these collateral debates.
Lord Lambert. That which the Serjeant did boldly affirm
was, that the Petition and Advice was as much a law as any
law of late. I doubt this argument goes a great way to restore Charles Stuart. The Petition and Advice is a felo de se,
as to this very point.
I grant it is not proper to interpose in a debate between two
questions; but, in a matter of this nature, I hope it is not
unseasonable. As to that argument, that all that is done already is void if you exclude those; it is no such matter.
If any member be cast out, being unduly returned, surely
that law is a law, though made while he was here. If a report come in a Committee, you will receive that report without
asking whether such persons that were of the Committee were
present at it.
This differs from that case, which is moved by Mr. Bodurda. (fn. 32) This is not about persons, whether Thomas or
Robert, but whether such a borough shall send members.
You had one borough sent two members that had right but
to send one.
I move to put this into a way of debate, before you put
any other question.
Mr. Solicitor-general. This question is not likely soon to
be determined, and you may as well determine all reports
from your Committee of Privileges. (fn. 33) If I knew that that
Committee had voted a member out, that sits now, or two or
three more that have no right, if I knew this, I may interpose in any of your debates, and say this must be determined,
in regard it concerns your privilege, and all other business
must stand. Is this ingenuous ?
My motion is to put the natural question, "to transact," &c.
Colonel Terrill. I move that those members withdraw.
Admisso uno absurdo, mille sequuntur. You are come to
that, then, that either we must be slaves or freemen. There
were two sorts of villains. He that confessed himself a villain, it was entailed upon his heirs. We have been slaves to
our servants. Let us not be slaves by our own records.
Whenever writs went to those places, (fn. 34) it was only to consult of things concerning that nation, and no otherwise. Shall
we make ourselves slaves by the votes of those that have no
right to sit with us.
There was never any order of the House in this case. This
is primœ impressionis. A number of persons, sixty, sit
amongst us, that have no right. Six or seven carry a cause
now. It concerns us to look about us. I must say, under
favour of that Serjeant, (fn. 35) that the Petition and Advice is not
law. Bring in the Record, and see.
Any man that can but read English will say they had no
right to be called here.
We sit not by that. (fn. 36) Our writ is as it was anciently. If
otherwise, we could no more question them than they us.
We have voted two Houses. (fn. 37) It is a plain implication
that it was not a House before, but of our constitution. If
this business be not now seasonable, it is never seasonable.
It is said we are in confusion if we do it. I am sure we are
confounded if we do it not.
I beseech you on behalf of all the people of England that
you would not pass this. Not that I am against their sitting,
but not without a law. Take it into debate how they may sit
by a law. In the mean time I desire those persons may be so
ingenuous as to withdraw, while our own freedoms are in debate.
If Serjeant Maynard had not well understood the law, he
had not been a Serjeant now.
Mr. Swinfen. I like not that reflection about being Serjeant.
He might be Serjeant to —. (fn. 38) He well deserves it.
I am not much moved with his noise of our being enslaved.
To reject those things which tend to the setting up and
building a constitution, is to bring us into slavery indeed.
That gentleman not long since did determine that the Lord
Protector, by right, had no power to call this Parliament. (fn. 39)
If you be no Parliament, I know not that there is any civil
power. Then the army does enslave us.
Consider whether we cast ourselves not absolutely under a
military power, by rejecting all the civil power we have now
I hear divers confess this debate is not ingenuous nor orderly, but our being is concerned.
This case is no more than that of those that sit upon an
undue election. All that is done, while they are here, is
effectual. It differs from the case of a stranger. Sitting
by writ, they are members, de facto, till the contrary be adjudged.
This objection was never offered before in all this debate,
Since they were admitted all along to the debate, why should
they now be excluded ? You never cause any to withdraw,
till their cases be determined.
If you please, adjourn the debate about the other House,
and take it up to-morrow.
Mr. Hobart. We have the worst fortune that ever Parliament had. First, about bounding the single person; then
about bounding the other House. Now it is denied that you
are judges of your own members. To clear this, as to your
own foundation, is the most material. It was never told you
that the Petition and Advice was a law.
It is told (fn. 40) you that writs were sent for Ireland, but tbat
was never but in cases of their own to consult. That case of
Edward I. was so. England was always jealous to incorporate with any.
When King James came to the crown rightfully, by joining both Houses, he moved for an union of both nations, but
the Parliament were jealous then. The King was apprehensive of their jealousy, and moved that the Commons in both
places might be called. They came, and what did they do,
but consider to repeal laws that had provided towards an
union ? (fn. 41)
Vindicate your own right, and take care of incorporations:
and while you are in this debate cause the persons concerned
Mr. Trevor. The question offered was, whether you will
now take this matter into consideration. I would have you
put that question.
Mr. Attorney-general. It is an easy matter to suggest
aught to be matter of weight and consequence, and easy to
find persons to second it; and, if it lay on life and death, this
must come in.
If these men come not here, I doubt they will have Parliaments of their own.
Put the question whether you will at this time admit this
Mr. Fagg. Any person may offer an addition to this
It is a standing order of the House, that if any member
come in between affirmative and negative, he must withdraw.
Divers returns for Ireland are not made. You are not so
near a question as is moved to you. I think it is very regular
to proceed upon the matter now in debate.
Sir Walter Earle. If you will look into your books, you
will find no adjournment of the debate. The books were
Mr. Speaker reported the debate.
Sir Thomas Wroth. I move to adjourn this debate till tomorrow.
Mr. Steward. If you had any debate before you, I should
not be against an adjournment; but you have no debate regularly before you. The debate yesterday was at an end.
Mr. Knightley. If I had a report to offer you, concerning
bringing in any member, I would be bold to offer it; though
you had ordered to adjourn, and nought to intervene.
Colonel Morley. If that gentleman have liberty to speak
every second man, pray let me have my turn.
I think the debate comes properly before you. I find no
colour of law for their sitting. If you please to adjourn this
debate till to-morrow morning.
Sir Henry Vane. I could not attend you yesterday in
your great debate.
If I understand any thing of order, you have been out of
order ever since you sat. Till this was cleared you ought to
have done nought but choose your Speaker.
It arises thus to me. As your question was, last Parliament, whether you would keep out so many members (fn. 42) as that
those that were in, might make the Petition and Advice; now,
the question is, whether you shall take in so many as are not
members that may confirm it; or for you to transact with
those persons here that have no foundation, to transact with
persons that have no law to be another House. By this
means you have subverted your own foundation. Your wisdom will be concerned in it, to part with a prize in your
hands that you know not how to manage. Again, it must be
considered that they should withdraw, while this debate is afoot. Otherwise, they will hang upon you perpetually as a
negative. As you lay your foundation, so will the weight of
it be. You will look for peace and have none.
The vote for the single person passed with the greatest
unanimity that ever was. When a man is asleep, he finds no
hunger till he wake. I doubt the people of England will be
hungry when they awake.
A greater imposition never was by a single person upon
a Parliament, to put sixty votes upon you. By this means,
it shall be brought upon you insensibly, to vote by Scotch
and Irish members, to enforce all your votes hereafter.
Mr. Bayless. It is against the orders of the House, to call
the House in the midst of a debate; for this is a calling of
Mr. Bodurda. I move, that your question be whether, at
this time, you will take this business into consideration.
Sir John Northcote. I move to adjourn. I know what
sad fate attended one night's debates. I wish it may not be
our fate. There has been nought but breaking orders of the
House these four days. I would have the debate adjourned
Mr. Attorney-general. I move, to propose a question, and
Mr. Neville. The first must be, whether, when the question comes, they must withdraw; for if persons concerned
may vote in their own cause, then it is as broad as long.
If ever there was a cause for this debate in this world, it is
now; for you are, for aught I know, going to give away the
nation; so that there is a necessity of determining if they will
Serjeant Maynard. I move to adjourn the debate generally. The night will overtake you, before you can settle
where to fix. Take it up in the morning, and debate it out.
Colonel White. Adjourn the debate upon the question
Colonel Cromwell. I move, not only to take this into debate, about the Scotch and Irish members, but also to determine about those that sit, and have not taken the oath. (fn. 43)
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. Very well moved.
Mr. Trevor. Make your question certain, and then adjourn.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I would have this debate ended
before we rise. We are upon the unum necessarium. When I
went to dinner, you were upon this debate, and have been
three hours upon it. Whoever say that they (fn. 44) are upon a
right foot, are surely not of the Long Robe, nor ancient Parliament men.
We are the sole judges of our own members. No writ
from without can bring in members upon us. The Petition
and Advice cures that vice.
I am well provided to sit it out till nine, ten, twelve; till
it be determined; and till then, I shall not be satisfied with
any vote. I shall lay my claim, constantly and continually.
He was full of jests, and in great heart to day. He turned
from the Chair, and they called him to speak to the Chair.
I am not bound always to look you in the face like children, to see if you have a penny in your forehead. The gentleman that cried, "Speak to the Chair," is behind me. We
are now upon a new foot; we have a new Speaker. A new
debate is now come in; so that we cannot return to the old
debate. If you please to adjourn, I shall not take any advantage, though I am well provided for it.
Sir Anthony Ashley Cooper and Sir Richard Temple moved
that the persons concerned might withdraw. They claimed
it as their privilege.
Mr. Lechmere. The question now is, whether the interloping question shall prevail. I move, that you would state
Captain Baynes. It is too late to state a question now.
Mr. Speaker was going to leave the chair, and adjourn it
Mr. Trevor very angrily said, he ought not to leave the
chair, without directions of the House.
Sir George Booth. Leave the debate generally without
a question, and it is fair for all sides.
Colonel Mildmay. I would not have any question put,
till the members (fn. 45) be withdrawn.
Captain Whalley. By that rule, if two or three members
stand up, and charge half the House, then must they all
withdraw. I would have it first determined, what shall be
the matter of your debate. The proper question is about the
Mr. Scot. Whether is it more ingenuous to dispute it
now, or when the law is passed ? Will you leave the nation
to dispute it afterwards ? That is not so ingenuous.
Colonel Birch. You are now upon another debate,
whether you will put any question at all. If you thus rise
without a question, you are where you were in the morning.
You are now doing that which was never done in Parliament
before; but, before you rise, put this question, what shall be
your debate to-morrow.
Colonel Okey. I move that the persons withdraw.
Mr. Starkey. This is a begging the question, to move
that they shall withdraw. It is not to the persons, but to
the things; to the right of the places that sent them.
Mr. Hewley. This is a division from part of the question,
like the division of the harlot's child. (fn. 46) This is not the
unum necessarium, thus to divide and dismember a question.
Mr. Young. I move that the members withdraw. The
last Parliament, the House adjudged the case in the ab
sence of the persons, above one hundred that were kept
out. (fn. 47)
Sir Henry Vane. Of necessity you must first come to
that question, whether they shall withdraw: else you break
all orders. They will never suffer themselves to be brought
to the question. They will keep off all questions.
Mr. Knightley. In the call of your House, I told you
one borough sent two members that had right but to send
one. The modesty of those gentlemen was such that both
withdrew. I hope these gentlemen will in modesty withdraw. They may be at the debate, but they must of necessity withdraw before the question.
Sir Walter Earle agreed what was last moved to be
Mr. Goodrick. They ought not to withdraw. Put the
question, whether you will have any question to intervene.
Sir Anthony Athley Cooper. They ought to withdraw.
(He cited Mr. Danvers' case. (fn. 48) ) If they may have a vote in
this case, it will be in their power to keep this vote off themselves all the Parliament. They are most worthy persons;
but let us consider the consequence.
Colonel Cox. These members were never questioned
when they sat upon the Instrument of Government, (fn. 49) Then
they came again upon the Petition and Advice, and sat, and
were never questioned. They have sat now upon the Petition
and Advice. I would have this debate waved.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. We sat upon another foot before. (fn. 50) The Protector is sworn to call Parliaments according
to law. Here is a law for an English Parliament; but none
for Scotland nor Ireland.
He was taken down, having spoken.
Mr. Bulkeley. The consequence will be dangerous, to
throw out, not only the members, but the union, for want
of a formality. I am not of opinion that this debate is well
I shall sit down under any event, whatever it be. You are
upon a great point.
These persons have formerly contributed to your settlement, and have done you faithful service here and elsewhere.
I had rather you should put off the other question than go on
It will male audire abroad, to cause sixty members to withdraw, and go very far to annul whatever you have done
this month. I shall offer an expedient.
I desire to carry my eyes in my head, and in carrying on
my duty to have an eye to my danger. We have been
broken often, and may be hereafter: You are a free, a full
Parliament. Look not back. Let all nations, soldiers and
others, know by your declaration, that it shall be high
treason and confiscation to attempt any thing upon the
person of your Chief Magistrate. It may conduce to your
quiet, be very much for your service, in justly carrying
on the debate.
Mr. Knightley. Put it in two questions. I shall not be
1. That it shall be high treason to attempt aught upon
the person of his Highness.
2. That it shall be high treason to attempt upon this
This was done in January 41, when the Committee of
Parliament adjourned to Grocers' Hall. (fn. 51)
Sir Henry Vane. Keep to your debate. You have two
hares a-foot You will lose both. What can you do, but
declare? You cannot make it a law.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I like this vote very well. I
have exceeding fidelity to his person. If we stick together,
if we were turned out naked, we should deal with all the
world. That it may be high treason also to dissolve this
House. I am ready to give my affirmative to both. I hope
the question was well digested before it was offered. If we
two unite, and the representative of the people, who can
balk us ? This will secure your fears.
Sir Anthony Ashley Cooper. I like the thing very well,
but it comes not in seasonably. Be the thing never so good,
it ought not to break in upon this debate. Divert not upon
Colonel Terrill seconded that motion.
Mr. Goodrick moved to third the motion, that the question be put, to make it high treason to attempt upon his
Highness, or upon any member of this House.
Mr. Sadler. This last motion is not seasonable. It is the
greatest compliance to fear to express your fears. I have
heard it said, that but for distempers in the body it would be
immortal. It is not your vote that will secure you. It
must be wisdom and justice that must secure. More
Babylon is within us than without us, by falling upon petty
This question last moved, my heart goes along with it,
but I think it is not seasonable now. Nought should divert
you from this debate about your own foundations.
The case now in hand does vastly differ from my case (fn. 52)
or any particular case. I should not have stirred the
question; but now it is stirred, it concerns you. I think there
is much more for their sitting here than has been said;
but the question now is, whether this question be offered
To lay down a general rule, that no other question should
be put, is against all orders. Any addition may yet be
offered. Admit it had been put, that no addition should
The very words of the question would have put you
on this debate. This House, it is not complete. If a
gentleman has shut the gallery door upon six score of your
members, you are not a House then. The same argument
if six score were brought in, and thus were added two
When your question was put, divers were withdrawn.
I asked them why. They ingenuously said, why should
they give their votes, in a matter of this consequence ? If
you should leave it to their prudence, I believe they would
withdraw. My reason is, that I believe they knew all the
laws of nature and man were against being judges and parties. It is clear they ought to be at the debate to say all they
can for themselves and the nation, but not to be here at the
Serjeant Maynard. I move to adjourn upon that question
before you, as to the right of the Scotch and Irish members.
Many of us want refreshment.
Mr. Chaloner. We sit, still. Many have gone put before,
to dinner; and now I believe some are going out to supper,
and we sit, still. I pray we may adjourn.
Serjeant Maynard. I would have no question put, and
then no man is prejudiced; for it will be an admitting them
to have votes who are now in dispute.
Mr. Trevor. I have as much reason to move to adjourn
as any man. I would have you order it and put no question.
It may be moved, their withdrawing, to-morrow, notwithstanding this question.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge moved to adjourn the debate generally.
The debate was adjourned at large accordingly, till tomorrow, at eight in the morning. And the House rose at
I went to inquire of Committees sitting, but none sat,
it was so late; only the grand Committee of Grievances
adjourned till to-morrow.