House of Lords Journal Volume 9
14 September 1647

Sponsor

History of Parliament Trust

Publication

Year published

1767-1830

Pages

Annotate

Comment on this article
Double click anywhere on the text to add an annotation in-line

Citation Show another format:

'House of Lords Journal Volume 9: 14 September 1647', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 9: 1646 (1767-1830), pp. 432-435. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=37122 Date accessed: 21 April 2014. Add to my bookshelf


Highlight

(Min 3 characters)

DIE Martis, die 14 Septembris.

PRAYERS, by

Domini præsentes fuerunt:

Comes Manchester, Speaker.

Comes Northumb.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Salisbury.
Comes Denbigh.
Ds. North.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Grey.

Dickenson sent for, for slighting the Order of this House, about the Privileges of Camb. University.

Upon reading the Affidavit of John Houlden; complaining, "That Henry Dickenson, (fn. *) One of the present Bailiffs of the Town of Cambridge, hath contemned the Order of this House:" (Here enter it.)

It is Ordered, That the said Henry Dickenson shall be sent for, as a Delinquent, to answer the said Complaint; and that the Proofs against him shall be sent up.

Letter from the Mayor of Sandwich.

A Letter from the Mayor and Jurats of Sand'ich, with Two Examinations inclosed, were read.

(Here enter them.)

Message from the H. C. with Orders;—and a Letter to the Parliament of Scotland, about the E. of Lauderdail.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Pye Knight; who brought up divers Particulars, wherein they desire their Lordships (fn. †) Concurrence:

1. An Ordinance for continuing the Commissioners of the Great Seal of England till 10 Dec. next.

(Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

2. A Letter to be sent to the Estates of Scotland, concerning the Earl of Lauderdaill. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

3. An Order, That Mr. Row shall carry the Letter to the Estates of Scotland. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees to all the Particulars now brought up.

Commissioners who presented the Propositions, return with the King's Answer.

The Earl of Pembrooke reported to the House, "That, according to the Commands of both Houses, he had delivered the Propositions for a safe and well-grounded Peace to His Majesty; and have brought the King's Answer to them:" And his Lordship presented a Paper, containing the Discourse between the King and the Commissioners. Then the said Answer and the Paper were read. (Here enter them.)

Message to the H. C. with it; and for it to be communicated to the Scots Commissioners.

Ordered, That this Answer of the King's be communicated to the House of Commons; with a Desire of their Concurrence, that the same may be communicated to the Scotch Commissioners, by the Members of both Houses that are of the Committee of both Kingdoms.

And this was immediately sent down to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page.

King's Answer to the Propositions.

Ordered, That this House will take the King's Answer to the Propositions into Consideration on Thursday Morning next; and the Lords to have Notice to attend the House.

Hallett to be instituted to Cheddington.

Ordered, That Doctor Aylett shall give Institution and Induction to Thomas Hallett Clerk, to the Rectory of Cheddington, in the County of Dorsett, void by the Death of George Lutherell Clerk; the said Mr. Hallett producing his Presentation thereunto under the Hand and Seal of Robert Owsley Gentleman, the lawful Patron: This to be with a salvo Jure cujuscunque.

E. of Pembroke's Protestation.

This Day the Earl of Pembrooke and Mountgomery presented to this House a Paper, which was an Addition to his former Protestation; which was read.

(Here enter it.)

And the House declared, "That they were fully satisfied with this Protestation of his Lordship; and did approve of it;" and ordered the same to be entered in the Journal Book of this House.

Letter from the Mayor and Jurats of Sandwich, about Words spoke by V.

"To the Right Honourable Edward Earl of Manchester, Speaker of the Honourable High Court of Parliament, and to every of the Lords in the said Court assembled.

Adm. Batten, concerning the Intentions of the Army.

These. Haste, Haste, Haste.

"Haste, Haste, Post Haste. For the Service of the King and Parliament, These. Haste, Haste, Haste.

"Right Honourable,

"By the Examinations, true Copies whereof are inclosed, your Lordships may perceive some Words laid upon Captain Batten, to have been spoken by him, concerning the King's Majesty and the Army. Though by the last Examination the Words fall much short of what the First Examination importeth; yet, in Discharge of our Duties we owe to your Lordships, we could do no less than bind over the Parties, farther to testify concerning the Matter, where and when they should be legally required; and to certify your Lordships what had been done therein, by

10 Septembris, 1647.

"Your Lordship's
Humble Servants,

"The Mayor and Jurats of Sandwich."

Examinations concerning them.

"Sandwic ss. Sexto Die Septembris, Anno Regis Caroli, &c. 23°, Annoque Domini 1647. The Examination of Andrew Gosfright, of Sandw'ch aforesaid, Jurat, One of His Majesty's Justices of the Peace there, taken upon Oath, before Henry Forstall Esquire, Mayor of Sandw'ch aforesaid, and Richard Selwin Jurat, His Majesty's Justices, &c.

"The Examinate saith, That, Sabbath-day last was Sevennight, the Minister who preached the same Day at the Church of St. Marye's in this Town, being a Minister, as he faith, in One of the Ships now employed in the State's Service, did, the same Day and the next Day following, in this Examinate's House, and and at The Bell in this Town, in the Hearing of this Examinate, say, "That he had heard Captain Batten (meaning Captain Batten now Vice Admiral in The Downes), as this Examinate took it, say, That the Army, notwithstanding they did hold the King in Suspence, would in the Conclusion take off His Head;" or Words to the very same Effect. This Examinate also saith, That the said Minister did not name the Time when the said Captain Batten should speak the same Words, or the Place where the same were spoken; neither doth this Examinate know the said Minister's Name, or his Place of Abode, or where he may be found; only he conceiveth at this Time the said Minister is in Deale.

"And. Gosfright."

"Sandwich ss. Nono Die Septembris, Anno Regis Caroli, &c. 23°, Annoque Domini, 1647. The Examination of John Springham Clerk, Minister of the Ship called The Providence, now lying in The Downes, being in the Service of the State, John Stansby Captain, taken upon Oath, before Henry Forstall Esquire, Mayor, William Halsnod, Richard Selwin, John Hawke, and John Moore, Jurats, His Majesty's Justices, &c.

"The said Examinate saith, That he did never hear Captain Batten say, "That the Army, notwithstanding they did hold the King in Suspence, would in the Conclusion take off His Head;" nor any Words to that Effect. But this Examinate consesseth, That he did tell Mr. Gosfright, of this Town, Jurat, on Sabbathday last was Sevennight, at his the said Mr. Gosfright's House, That he had heard Captain Batten, meaning Captain Batten now Vice Admiral in The Downes, say, "That he feared the Army would not deal fairly with the King;" or Words to that Effect. He saith, The Words were spoken within Six Weeks last past; but the certain Time or Place he remembereth not.

"John Springham."

Earl of Pembroke's further Declaration and Protestation, against the Orders, &c. passed while the Speakers were with the Army; and that he was under Force at that Time.

"Die Veneris, 20 Aug. 1647.

"The Earl of Pembrooke this Day declared in the House, That, while the Houses of Parliament were under the Force and Violence, from the 26th of July last, until the Sixth of August when both Speakers returned to the Houses, he holds all the Orders, Ordinances, and other Acts, which passed in that Time, to be null and void, as being done without Authority of Parliament; and acknowledging both himself and the rest of the Lords that acted during that Time to be under Force: With which Acknowledgement the Lords rested satisfied.

"Besides my Declaration hereunto annexed, made in the House of Peers the 20th Day of August, 1647, by which that House received Satisfaction; I do humbly offer this following to your Lordships further Consideration; videlicet,

"That, on Monday the 26th of July, 1647, a very peremptory Order was made, and entered in the Book of the House of Peers, That every Peer should thereby be strictly commanded and enjoined to meet and attend the Service of the said House on Friday the 30th of July, 1647, then next following. I, not knowing the Intention of any Peer or Commoner to meet at any other Place, did repair accordingly to the said House of Peers; where (and also in the House of Commons) the Committee for the Safety being revived, the Guards, and City and Works very strictly and strongly watched, so that I could not leave the City; and, being so surprized, I durst not afterwards but follow the Orders and Directions of that Power, and that Committee for the Safety, though never so contrary to my Judgement; for that I was continually under a Force, both by the Apprentices and others. And, as at other Times formerly and usually, which is well known, I did join with those that voted for the Public, and concurred therein with the Army, and, while the Parliament was under that Force, I did as far as in me lay oppose the Votes that were to the contrary; which I hope will prove satisfactory to all.

"Pembrook and Mount."

Ordinance to continue the Commissioners for the Great Seal.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That the Great Seal of England be continued in the Custody of Edward Earl of Manchester Speaker of the House of Peers pro Tempore, and of William Lenthall Esquire Speaker of the House of Commons, in the same Manner, and with the same Power and Authorities, as now it is, until the 10th Day of December next: It is further Ordered, That the Commission for hearing Causes in Chancery be continued, in the same Manner as now it is, for the same Term of Time, until the 10th of December next."

Letter to the States of Scotland; in Answer to theirs, complaining of the Affront offered to the E. of Lauderdail, and desiring Security for future Safety of their Commissioners, &c.

"Right Honourable,

"We have received your Lordship's Letter of the 21th of August last, taking Notice of some Violence offered to the Earl of Lauderdaill by some Soldiers in the Army of Sir Thomas Fairefax; and although your Commissioners have been informed that the General knew nothing thereof, and hath disavowed the same, yet we have put it into a Way of further Examination, that we might have full Satisfaction of the Matter of Fact; of the Truth whereof when we are informed, we shall give you Notice: And as we have formerly, upon divers Occasions, passed by Matters of Offence given us, that no Misunderstanding might grow thereupon, so we shall not maintain or approve any unfit or unjustifiable Deportment of any towards your Commissioners, or any employed from that Kingdom; but, upon Knowledge of the Matter of Fact, and Persons offending, we shall do that which is just, to give the Kingdom of Scotland Satisfaction in it. And as to the Security desired, under the Hands of the Speakers of both Houses, and from Sir Thomas Fairefax and his Council of War, for such as you shall employ, or that shall have Passes from you, to have Access to His Majesty and the Parliament; the Houses do declare, That none shall be debarred from having Access to His Majesty, who have Warrant from the Parliament of Scotland, or from the Committee thereunto authorized, except such as are disabled by the Propositions agreed on by both Kingdoms. But as to such Assurance from Sir Thomas Fairefax and his Council of War, it hath been formerly refused to the King, when He desired the like from the Generals of the Armies of either Nations; and that by your Commissioners, then here present, joining with the Houses in that Answer to His Majesty. For the Matter of Trade, we do not find in your Letters any Mention of any particular Interruption of Trade, nor do we know of any; but, when any such do appear unto us, we will do that which to Justice shall appertain; and shall ever be ready to do all Things that may preserve a good Understanding and Correspondence between the Two Kingdoms. This is that which the Houses have commanded should be represented to your Lordships; and we rest,

Westm'r, 14th Sept'r, 1647.

"Your."

Order for Rowe to carry the Letter to the Chancellor of Scotland.

"The Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament do order, That Mr. William Rowe do carry and deliver the Letters agreed upon by both Houses, to be sent to the Chancellor of Scotland, the Council of Scotland, and the Committee of Estates of Scotland; and observe such further Directions as he shall receive from the Committee at Derby House."

Account of the Propositions being presented to the King.

"After we had presented, and desired the King's positive Answer and Consent to, the Propositions; the King asked us, "Whether these Propositions were the same which were presented to Him formerly at Newcastle?" The Earl of Pembrooke told Him, "That these were the same Propositions; only there was an Addition for the Sale of Bishops Lands, and some Alteration touching Delinquents." The King then asked, "Whether that the Commissioners of Scotland did agree to these Propositions, as they were now presented?" The Earl of Lauderdaill answered, "That these Propositions were the same that were formerly agreed by both Kingdoms; there was only an Addition for an Ordinance to be passed for the abolishing of Archbishops and Bishops, and Sale of their Lands; which, by their Instructions, they were warranted to agree (fn. *) to; and that they were likewise commanded to expunge such of the Scottch Nation Delinquents that the Parliament of Scotland had taken off, and particularly some Persons; which they did, by a Paper given in to both Houses." He said likewise, "He found a Proviso added; but that they had that Day received a Declaration from both Houses, by which it was declared, That nothing was therein contained disagreeable to the former Propositions, saving only in the Matter of Fines and Compositions of Delinquents: Upon which, his Lordship said, they did concur in presenting these Propositions." The King then replied, "That He was somewhat surprized with them, not looking now for them; but He would give an Answer to them as soon as He could:" And upon Thursday, about Ten of the Clock, His Majesty sent us Word, "That He would be ready to give His Answer to the Propositions about Four of the Clock in the Afternoon, and commanded us then to attend Him," which we did accordingly; when His Majesty told us, "That, if this were a Time for Complaints, He might well complain that He had sent many Messages to the Houses, to which He had received no Answer at all: But it is a Time now (said He) for every one to endeavour to do all the Good he can; and therefore He had (in as short a Time as He could) prepared His Answer to the Propositions, which (He took God to Witness) was such as in His Opinion led to the best Way for settling of a happy and speedy Peace in these Kingdoms. If it were not so in every Man's Opinion, His Majesty wished that we might all be charitable to one another; and so delivered the Answer to us: Which after we had amongst ourselves read, the Earl of Pembrooke, with the rest of the Commissioners repairing to the King, desired His Majesty's positive Answer and Consent to the Propositions. To which the King replied, "That that which He had delivered to us was His Answer, and that He could give no other; which He conceived was a positive Answer."

The King's Answer to them.

"CHARLES R.

"His Majesty cannot choose but be passionately sensible (as He believes all His good Subjects are) of the late great Distractions and still languishing and unsettled State of this Kingdom. And He calls God to Witness, and is willing to give Testimony to all the World, of His Readiness to contribute His utmost Endeavours for restoring it to a happy and flourishing Condition.

"His Majesty, having perused the Propositions now brought to Him, finds them the same in Effect which were offered to Him at Newcastle: To some of which as He could not then consent without Violation of His Conscience and Honour; so neither can He agree to others now, conceiving them in many respects more disproportionable to the present Condition of Affairs than when they were formerly presented unto Him; as being destructive to the many principal Interests of the Army, and of all those whose Affections concur with them.

"And His Majesty having seen the Proposals of the Army to the Commissioners from His Two Houses residing with them, and with them to be treated on, in order to the clearing and securing of the Rights and Liberties of the Kingdom, and the settling of a just and lasting Peace; to which Proposals as He conceives His Two Houses not to be Strangers, so He believes they will think with Him, that they much more conduce to the Satisfaction of all Interests, and may be a fitter Foundation for a lasting Peace, than the Propositions which at this Time are tendered unto Him. He therefore propounds (as the best Way in His Judgement in order to a Peace) that His Two Houses would instantly take into Consideration those Proposals, upon which there may be a Personal Treaty with His Majesty, and upon such other Propositions as His Majesty shall make; hoping that the said Proposals may be so moderated in the said Treaty, as to render them the more capable of His Majesty's full Concessions, wherein He resolves to give full Satisfaction to His People for whatsoever shall concern the settling of the Protestant Profession, with Liberty to tender Consciences, and the securing of the Laws, Liberties, and Properties of all His Subjects, and the just Privileges of Parliament, for the future; and likewise, by His present Deportment in this Treaty, He will make all the World clearly judge of His Intentions in Matters of future Government; in which Treaty His Majesty will be well pleased (if it be thought fit) that Commissioners from the Army, whose the Proposals are, may likewise be admitted.

"His Majesty therefore conjures His Two Houses of Parliament, by the Duty they owe to God and His Majesty their King, and by the Bowels of Compassion they have to their Fellow Subjects, both for Relief of their present Sufferings and to prevent future Miseries, that they will forthwith accept of this His Majesty's Offer, whereby the joyful News of Peace may be restored to this distressed Kingdom. And for what concerns the Kingdom of Scotland, mentioned in the Propositions, His Majesty will very willingly treat upon those Particulars with the Scottch Commissioners; and doubts not but to give reasonable Satisfaction to that His Kingdom.

"At Hampton Court, the 9th Day of Sept'r, 1647.

"For the Speaker of the Lords House pro Tempore; to be communicated unto the Lords and Commons in the Parliament of England at Westm'r, and the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland."

Holden's Affidavit, that Dickenson slighted the Order of this House, about the Privilege of Cambridge University.

"14 Septembris, 1647.

"John Houlden, of Cambridge, Stationer, aged Fortyeight Years, saith and deposeth, That he saw the Order of the Right Honourable House of Lords delivered unto the Mayor and Bailiffs of Cambridge. Notwithstanding their Lordships did therein order, That the University of Cambridge should remain in Possession of all such Rights, Liberties, and Privileges, which they formerly enjoyed, by their Charters, Customs, or otherwise, before the Beginning of this Parliament; yet, since the Delivery of the said Order, the Liberties and Privileges of the University have been infringed and violated, by the Officers of the Town of Cambridge; and in particular by one Henry Dickinson One of the present Bailiffs of the Town, and John Bullein employed under him; who, when this Deponent came unto him, together with another Officer of the University, and shewed him the said Order of the Lords, answered, "That he did not care for the said Order of the Lords;" and proceeded, in actual Contempt thereof, to the manifest Infringement of the University Rights and Privileges.

"John Houlden.

"Jur. 14 Septembris, 1647.

"Rob't Aylett."

Hallett to be instituted to Cheddington.

Ordered, That Doctor Aylett do give Institution and Induction unto Thomas Hallett Clerk, to the Rectory of Cheddington, in the County of Dorsett, void by the Death of the late Incumbent; salvo Jure cujuscunque; he taking the National League and Covenant, and producing his Presentation thereunto under the Hand and Seal of Robert Owsley Gentleman, the lawful Patron.

Footnotes

* Deest in Originali.
Origin. Commissioners.
* Deest in Originali.