December 1643

Commons Journal

Lords Journal

Acts and Ordinances

CSPD Charles I

Calendar of the Committee for Advance of Money

Calendar of the Committee for Compounding

CSP, Colonial

CSP, Venice

Cecil Calendar

House of Lords Journal Volume 6
4 December 1643

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History of Parliament Trust

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 6: 4 December 1643', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 6: 1643 (1767-1830), pp. 322-324. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=37402 Date accessed: 23 November 2014.


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DIE Lunæ, 4 die Decembris.

PRAYERS.

Lords present this Day:

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker this Day.

Comes Northumb.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Bollingbrooke.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Rutland.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Kent.
Comes Warwick.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Dacres.
Ds. Hunsden.
Ds. Bruce.

Answer from the H. C. about the Order for the French Ambassador's Couriers;

The Messengers sent to the House of Commons return with this Answer to the Message sent to them on Saturday last, concerning the Pass for the French Ambassador's Servants, and the Paper sent down concerning Mr. Nicolls:

and about the Earl of Stamford's Complaint against Mr. Nicholls.

That they will send an Answer, by Messengers of their own, to the Pass for the Ambassador's Servants; and concerning the Paper of the Earl of Stamford's, concerning Mr. Nicolls, they give this Answer, That, according to the usual Course of Parliament, they appointed a Committee to consider of that Cause; and that Committee appointed a particular Day to hear (fn. *) it; and the Earl of Stamford had Notice of that Day, but there was no Accuser appeared against Mr. Nicolls.

The Speaker reported the Effect of the Conference on Saturday last with the House of Commons:

Report of the Conference about the Manner of receiving Papers &c. from the French Ambassador.

"That Sir Henry Vane said, That the House of Commons did not agree with this House, for naming a Committee to find out an Expedient how the French Ambassador may make his Addresses to the Parliament with subscribing his Name.

"And the Reasons why the House of Commons cannot agree with the Lords in appointing a Committee concerning the Prince Dc Harcourt:

"1. Because the House of Commons do conceive the Two Houses cannot as yet take Notice, by any Thing that hath proceeded from the Prince De Harcourt, that he is a Person qualified from the French King to treat with the Lords and Commons assembled in the Parliament of England, or that he can give Assurance that the French King will be obliged unto what he shall propound to the Two Houses; until which Time, the House of Commons do not think it agreeable to the Honour of the Houses, or safe for the Proceedings of Parliament, to appoint any Committee to consider of the Manner or Way of receiving what shall be propounded by the Prince De Harcourt.

"The French Agent, Monsieur Boysiven, lately sent from the French King to the Privy Council of Scotland, did first deliver in his Letters of Credence, before he presented that which he had to propound from the King his Master.

"Second Reason:

"That if the Prince De Harcourt have any Thing to propound from the French King, to the Lords and Commons assembled in the Parliament of England, the House of Commons do conceive that the Houses have done nothing to bar or hinder the Prince De Harcourt from the usual and fitting Ways of Address to them, and such as are also honourable for him; as,

"1. That he may apply himself to the Speaker of either or both Houses, by himself or such Persons as he shall intrust to that Purpose, to desire Audience, in the Name of the King his Master, for what he hath to propound from the French King to both or either Houses of the Parliament of England.

"2. Or else what he hath to propound from the King his Master to the Houses, he may direct either to the Houses themselves, or their Speakers, attested under his Hand; as is expected from the Ambassador of England, and is practised by them in their Negociations with Foreign States: It is that also which the King Himself useth, in His Messages to the Two Houses: It is that which the French Agent, Monsieur Boysiven, hath lately done to the Privy Council of Scotland, and which the Ministers of Foreign States have done and do to this Parliament upon Occasion."

Next was read, "The Copy of the French King's Letter, sent by Monsieur Boysivon, Agent of the French King, to the Council of Scotland, put into English:

French King's Letter of Credence to the Council of Scotland, for Mons. Boysivon.

"Most Dear and Great Friends,

"There hath been from all Times Alliances between the Kings Our Predecessors and those of Scotland, which have been observed so sacredly and faithfully, that the Faithfulness of the one and the other Nation hath been acknowledged and published as a Miracle to all the People of the World. We have been raised to the Command of the First and most Famous Monarchy of Europe; and We would conserve the Friendship of the most valorous Nation that inhabits it; and, to give Testimony hereof, take Part in their Affairs. You have deputed unto Us, with the Consent of the King of Great Brittaine, Monseigneur the Earl of Lodian; who being returned satisfied, We send you Monsieur Boysivon, by the Advice of the Queen Regent Our most Honoured Lady and Mother, to carry you the Assurance of the Continuance of Our Affection; He hath some Matters to propound to you. We pray you to receive Credence in all which he shall say to you on Our Behalf; and to apply yourselves to give Us Satisfaction therein, as Our true and most ancient Allies. It is that which We promise Ourself from your Prudence, and that you will not be failing to your own Interests, which shall ever be to Us in singular Esteem, so long as you have for your Aim the Obedience and Service of the King your Master. Thus we pray God to keep you, most Dear and Great Friends, in His most Holy and Divine Protection.

"Written at Paris, the 24th of September, 1643.

"Sic subscribitur,

"Louis.

"The Propositions of the Monsieur Boysivon to the Council of Scotland.

French Propositions to Scotland.

"That, according to the Instructions which the Lords of Council of Scotland have given to the Earl of Lodian, their Deputy, with the Consent of the King of Great Brittaine, the said Lords (as far as their Power extends) should confirm the ancient Alliances of France and Scotland.

"That, for this Effect, the Scotch do not, directly nor indirectly, enter into Arms in England, be it under Pretence to serve the King of Great Brittaine, or of Religion, without express Commission from the King their Master; and forasmuch as this Article presses the most Christian King, to give a speedy and punctual Answer.

"That the Lords of Council of Scotland, according to the Example of the most Christian King, would have no Regard to the Difference of the Religion of those who serve in France, and who do inroll or shall inroll themselves there to serve; and because the Churches of Scotland have determined in their Assembly the contrary, that the Council of Scotland would grant out an Order to re-call the same.

"Monsieur Boysivon hath Command from the King his Master to make yet some further Propositions; but, as these are the Principal, and those which regard the holding fast or breaking of the Alliance of the Two Kingdoms of France and Scotland, he hath Order to receive an Answer in the First Place to these.

"P. De Boisivon, S."

"The Answere of the Councell of Scotland to the Propositions which Monsieur De Boisivon hath made to them from the Most Christian Kinge.

Answer of the Council of Scotland to them.

"To the First, When the Councell of Scotland shall receive from the Earle of Lothian an Accompt of his Proceedings in his Employment to France, they will, according to their Power, give such a respective Answere as may shew their Willingnes to renew and entertayne the ancient Allyance betwixt the Kingdomes of Scotland and France.

"To the Second Article they can give no Answere, seing the concerning of the Peace betwixt the Two Kingdomes is committed, by His Majesty and Estates of Parliament, to a Comission appointed for that Effect; and the late Convention of Estates having alsoe receved some Propositions from Commissioners of both the Houses of the Parliament of England, for the further securing of the Religion and Peace of their Kingdome, have instrusted the Consideration thereof to a Comittee of their own Number, who, the Counsell are confident, will proceede in these Affaires as becometh them, in Duty and Conscience toward God, in Loyalty to the Kinge, and Respect to the Good of the Kingedome.

"To the Third, Since the Nationall Assembly of the Church of Scotland is independent, what hath bin concluded by them cannot be recalled by the Councell.

"As the Councell hath answered principall Propopositions according to their Power, and in such Sorte as can give no just Occasion of Offence to the French Kinge, being willing inviolablely to keepe the Amity which hath bin soe religiously observed these many Yeares; and they hope that those who have the Charge of the French King and His Affaires in His Nonnage will be better advised then to make theseParticulers any Occasion of Breach with His ancient Allyes, whom His Royall Predecessors in their greatest Difficulties hath found to be the readiest and surest Freinds.

"Soe, when any other Proposition shall be made to them by Monsieur Boisivon, they will returne such an Answere thereunto as apperteyneth."

Report of the Conference, concerning Words spoke against the E. of Wharton, by Sir Henry Mildmay.

The Second Part of the Conference was, "To acquaint their Lordships with Sir Henry Mildmaye's Answer;" which was read, as followeth:

"Sir Henry Mildmay says, he never spoke the Words, or heard them spoken, concerning the Lord Wharton, that are charged upon him by a Report from a Conference with the Lords, and does believe there is no Truth in them; and is sorry that he should be the Occasion of any Dispute or any Difference between any Member of either House."

Committee to consider of the Papers relative to the French Ambassador.

And the House taking into Consideration the First Part of this Conference concerning Prince De Harcourt: It is Ordered, That the Consideration of the Papers be referred to the

Earls of Northumberland,
Kent,
Essex,
Sarum,
Warwicke,
The L. Vis. Say & Seale, and
The Lord Wharton, and
The Lord Howard;

Or any Three of them; to meet when and where they please, to consider of this Business, and what their Opinions are to report unto this House.

Examinations to be taken concerning the Words against Lord Wharton by Sir Hen. Mildmay.

Touching the Second (fn. *) Part of the Conference, upon the Desire of the Lord Wharton, "That, seeing that Sir Henry Mildmay hath been charged for speaking the Words, it now behoves his Lordship to make Proof of them, seeing he denies them; therefore desired that he might have some Witnesses examined, to prove the Words."

Hereupon this House Ordered, To send to the House of Commons, to desire them to appoint a Committee of their House, to be present at the Examination of the (fn. †) Witnesses concerning the Lord Wharton's Business against Sir Henry Mildmay; the Witnesses being to be examined by the Lords Committees formerly appointed to examine the Lord Murry concerning this Business; and, in regard Sir Henry Mildmay is a Member of the House of Commons, and some other Members are to be examined as Witnesses, their Lordships desire that some of their Members may be present at the said Examination.

Sir William Waller's Army very weak, and the King advancing towards him.

The Lord General this Day informed this House, "That he hath received Advice from Sir Wm. Waller, that the King is advancing to Basing with His Forces; and acquainted the House also of the Weakness of the Parliament's Army under his Command; and that he hath caused the House of Commons to be acquainted therewith, and hath desired them to consider how his Army may be recruited and maintained in such a Way as may be for the Service and Defence of the Public."

Conference to be had with the H. C. about it.

Hereupon this House Resolved, To have a Conference with the House of Commons, to communicate what the Lord General now declared to this House; and to let them know, that their (fn. *) Lordships, weighing the Importance of this Business, make no Doubt that the House of Commons doth with extraordinary Care attend it; but however, having received this from his Excellency, their Lordships hold it their Duty to put them in Mind of it, and to desire them speedily to take Order for Recruits and Maintenance of the Army; assuring them, in this and in all other Things, their Lordships will to their uttermost concur with the House of Commons, in such a Manner as may conduce to the carrying on of this great Cause of Religion and Liberty.

Sub-committee to be appointed, to consider of the Defence of Plymouth, Pool, and Lyme.

It was moved, "That whereas there is a Committee of Members of both Houses appointed, to take into their Consideration the speedy Relief of the Towns of Plymouth, Lyme, and Poole; but, in regard of their daily Attendance on the Houses, they cannot see putting in Execution what is agreed upon:" It is therefore Ordered, To send to the House of Commons, to join with this House, to give Power to the aforesaid Committee, to make a Sub-committee of fit Persons that are not of the House of Commons, to see the Orders and Directions of that Committee put into Execution.

Pettus and Ayliff.

Ordered, That the Cause of Mrs. Pettus against Mr. Ayliff shall be further heard, by Counsel on both Sides, at this Bar, on Friday Morning next, at Ten of the Clock; at which Time all Witnesses and Parties (fn. †) whom it concerns shall have Notice to attend accordingly.

To sit Tomorrow.

Ordered, That this House shall sit To-morrow Morning, at Ten of the Clock.

Message to the H. C. to acquaint them with it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Rich and Mr. Page:

To let them know, that this House Resolves to sit To-morrow Morning, at Ten of the Clock.

Declaration from the H. C.

Next, was read, "A Declaration which came from the House of Commons;" and it is Ordered, To be referred to the Consideration of these Lords Committees following (fn. ‡)

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 10 a cras.

Footnotes

* Deest in Originali.
* Bis in Originali.
Origin. Witness.
* Deest in Originali.
Origin. on.
Sic.