House of Lords Journal Volume 6
14 February 1644

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 6: 14 February 1644', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 6: 1643 (1767-1830), pp. 425-427. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=37451 Date accessed: 29 July 2014.


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DIE Mercurii, videlicet, 14 die Februarii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Wilkinson.

Lords present this Day:

Ds. Grey de Warke.

Comes Northumb.
L. General.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Lyncolne.
Comes Manchester.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
L. Admiral.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Suffolke.
Comes Kent.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Ds. Bruse.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Hunsdon.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Wharton.

Earl of Westmorland's Petition.

The Lord General acquainted this House, "That the Earl of Westm. came to him, and desired him to deliver a Petition to this House:" And this House commanded the same to be read. (Here enter it.)

Covenant to be tendered to him.

Hereupon this House Ordered, That the Earl of Westm. shall first have the Covenant tendered to him, and then this House will take the rest of his Desires into further Consideration.

And the House appointed the Earls of Rutland and Stamford to tender the Covenant to him presently; and (fn. *) accordingly they went forth; and the Earl of Westm'land took and subscribed the Covenant.

Further Report of the Conference about the Ordinance concerning the Committees of both Kingdoms.

Next, the Earl of Manchester reported the Remainder of the Conference Yesterday with the House of Commons; which was, "The Reasons of the House of Commons, why they adhere to the Words ["order and direct,"] being in Answer to the Lords Reasons." (Here enter the Reasons.)

"To the First Reason:

"1. That, admitting what is urged in the First Part of this Reason, it will not follow that the active Power of the Lord General will in the least Measure be restrained, although the Houses do grant the Power unto their Committee of ordering and directing the War, so as may be for the best Advantage of the Three Kingdoms, as is desired by the House of Commons; in respect it will be acknowledged by all, that, notwithstanding the active Power conferred on the Lord General by his Ordinance, yet the Power of ordering and directing the carrying on and managing the War for the best Advantage of the Kingdom resided still in, and was reserved unto, the Houses; which being delegated to this Committee, for the more speedy, secret, and effectual carrying on the War, can no Way abridge nor alter the active Power in the Lord General; but that remains still the same as if this Power of ordering and directing had not been granted to this Committee.

"To the Second Part of this Reason:

"If there be any such inevitable Necessity for the Lord General to act upon the Place without the Direction of this Committee, the Power of the Lord General already granted him therein remains entire notwithstanding; and the same might be as well objected when the Power resides in the Houses, as when it shall be delegated to this Committee.

"To the Second Reason of the Lords:

"The Power desired by the House of Commons to be granted to this Committee doth not cross the Ordinance for the Lord General; the Words of that Ordinance being these: ["That the Earl of Essex shall have and enjoy all Powers, Titles, Preeminencies, Authority, Jurisdiction, and Liberties, incident and belonging to the said Office of Captain General, in such Manner, and according to such Instructions, as he shall receive from Time to Time from both Houses of Parliament:"] Whereby the Power of the Lord General is appointed in such Manner, and according to such Instructions, as he shall from Time to Time receive from both Houses; and this Power now desired by the House of Commons to be granted to this Committee proceeding from both Houses, in their Declaration in what Manner the Lord General's Power is to be exercised, and the War to be managed, according to what they reserved to themselves in that Ordinance.

"2. The denying of placing such a Power in the Committee will be, by Consequence and in Effect, to deny the Houses themselves to have an ordering and directing Power for the managing the War, so as may be for their and the Kingdom's best Advantage, or at least the Exercise thereof.

"To the Third Reason of the Lords:

"Answer: This Reason presupposes a Diminution to the Lord General, by the granting the Power desired, without alledging wherein; which the House of Commons cannot admit, considering the Answers given to the former Reasons, whereby it appears the Lord General's Power will no Way be altered, but remain one and the same, notwithstanding the Power delegated by this Ordinance to this Committee as is desired; in which respect the supposed Inconveniencies of Dishonour and Discouragement to the Commanders, suggested in the following Part of this Reason, are wholly removed.

"2. The directing and ordering Power placed by the Houses in this Committee, so as may be for the best Advantage of the Kingdoms, as is desired, must needs much rather tend to the Honour and Safety of the Lord General, wherein the House acknowledges a Person of great Honour and Merit, than to Diminution thereof, considering whose Power it is that is so delegated, which by this Means will be made effectual and useful for the better carrying on the War; and that the Forces of our Brethren of Scotland, under their General, a Person of Honour, are directed by a joint Committee of both Nations.

"To the Fourth Reason of the Lords:

"Answer: This presupposes the Power of ordering and directing the War which resides in the Houses, or which shall be by them delegated to this Committee, and that which is granted to the Lord General by his Ordinance, to be equal and interfering; which the House of Commons leaves to your Lordships Consideration, and how likely the Power desired to be placed in this Committee will be to produce the Disorder and Confusion mentioned in that Reason.

"To the Fifth Reason of the Lords:

"Answer: This Reason doth presuppose the War is to be managed only by the Lord General, without any renewed Act of an ordering and directing Power from the Two Houses, for the Good of the Kingdom; for, if the Houses cannot order and direct the War immediately with the Speed and Secrecy requisite, nor delegate a Power to any Committee for those Purposes, it must necessarily follow the ordering and directive Part must rest solely in the Lord General.

"2. This also infers, that, if this Power desired be conferred by both Houses upon this Committee, that they should interpose in every particular Action of the Armies, instead of managing and carrying on the War for the best Advantage of the Three Kingdoms, which is by no Means to be admitted.

"For these Reasons the House of Commons, notwithstanding the Reasons offered them by the Lords, do think fit to adhere to the Words ["order and direct"] to stand in this Ordinance, as a Power necessary to be granted to the Committee of both Houses for the managing the War. Therefore the House of Commons, considering how many Days the Scotts Commissioners have been here expecting something to be done in this Business for the joining the Counsels of both Kingdoms, and nothing yet resolved of, they desire their Lordships would give speedy Resolution herein."

Hereupon this House was adjourned into a Committee during Pleasure; and the Business was taken into Debate.

And the House being resumed;

This Question was put,

Debates upon this Report.

"Whether, when the Lord General at any Time receives Directions from the Committee appointed by both Houses of Parliament to treat with the Scotts Commissioners, if he see Cause to the contrary, he may suspend the Execution thereof, until he have acquainted both Houses of Parliament therewith?"

And it was resolved in the Affirmative.

Then the House was adjourned during Pleasure into a Committee again, to debate the Business further, whether the Words ["order and direct"] should stand as it came from the House of Commons.

And the House being resumed;

This Question was put,

"Whether to propose to the House of Commons, at a Conference, to admit of the Words ["order and direct",] so the Time be changed from Three Months to Six Weeks?"

And it was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Committee to prepare Heads for a further Conference on this Business.

Ordered, That these Lords following are appointed to draw up Reasons for to be offered at the Conference To-morrow Morning, concerning this Business; and to report the same to this House:

L. General.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Lyncolne.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Denbigh.
L. Willoughby.

Any Three.

Earl of Westmorland's Petition, to be restored to his Liberty, and he will take the Covenant.

"To the Right Honourable the Lords assembled in Parliament.

"The humble Petition of Mildmay Earl of Westmoreland;

"Shewing,

"His deep Sense of Grief, that at any Time he hath so deserted the Parliament, as any Ways to have appeared an Opposer of the Proceedings thereof: He blesseth God, who hath discovered unto him the Danger Church and State were in, and Malignity of those who practised their Destruction, whereby his Judgement is now fully convinced; that it had formerly been seduced, and wandered out of the right Way; and therefore hath entertained this Resolution, for the future to sacrifice Life and Fortunes to the real Service of King and Parliament, for which he was born.

"This said, he humbly refers himself to your Lordships Wisdom and Goodness; and professeth that the Feeling of his great and long Sufferings is not so sensible unto him as the Trouble of his Mind for continuing so long in such Error; nor is he so joyed with the Benefit he may receive by that joint Declaration of the Two Kingdoms, as it concerns the Preservation of his Fortune and Family from Ruin, as in that it may be a Means and Occasion to put him into a Capacity of again serving his King and Country, which he humbly prayeth your Lordships may be by his receiving the Covenant and by his Restitution of his Liberty, and such Proportion of his Fortunes as to your Wisdoms shall be thought fit; and he doubteth not but he shall give such Testimony of his real Love to his Country as he shall be made capable of your Lordships further Favour.

"And he shall daily pray, &c."

Order for Mr. Rutton to be Minister of St. Mary le bow.

"Upon the humble Petition of divers of the Inhabitants of the Parish of Mary le bow, in the City of London; shewing, That their Minister hath sent to Sir Nathaniell Brent a Resignation of the said Living, so as the Place is become absolutely void; therefore the Petitioners humbly pray, that, seeing it is in the Donation of the Archbishop of Canterbury, whose Jurisdiction is sequestered by Ordinance of both Houses, that their Lordships (fn. *) will Order Sir Nathaniell Brenth, Vicar General to the said Archbishop, to give Institution and Induction to Mr. Rutton, to be Minister in that Place:"

All which this (fn. *) House Ordered accordingly.

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 9a cras.

Footnotes

* Origin. according.
* Deest in Originali.