DIE Mercurii, 20 die Martii.
PRAYERS, by Mr. Wilson.
Lords present this Day:
Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Hester Hodges, Leave to stay in Town to provide Childbed Linen for the Queen.
Upon reading the Petition of Hester Hodges, Servant
to the Countess of Denbigh; shewing, "That she being
sent up from her Lady, to make Provision of Childbed Linen and other Necessaries for the Time of Her
Majesty's Lying-in, and she being by the Committee
of Examinations ordered to return to Oxford at or
before Friday next, unless she shall have Leave from
the Parliament to the contrary:" It is Ordered,
That this House gives Liberty for the said Hester Hodges
to stay in Town until this Day Sevennight, to dispatch
the Businesses aforesaid.
Mr. Peters, 100 l.
Ordered, That this House agrees with the House of
Commons in the Order for (fn. *) paying One Hundred
Pounds to Mr. Peters. (Here enter it.)
Sir W. Brereton, 1000 l.
Ordered, That this House agrees with the House
of Commons in the Order for paying One Thousand
Pounds to Sir Wm. Brereton, out of Haberdasher's Hall.
(Here enter it.)
Paper from The States Ambassadors.
The Speaker acquainted this House with a Paper;
which was delivered to him by The States Ambassadors,
to be presented to the Lords; which was read, being
translated into English. (Here enter it.)
Report of the Conference about it;
Next, the Speaker reported the Effect of the Conference with the House of Commons:
"That Sir Henry Vane Junior did acquaint their
Lordships with a Letter, which the House of Commons received from The States Ambassadors; which,
for the better understanding of it, was translated into
English; which was read.
"Concerning which Paper, it being a Thing of great
Importance, the House of Commons have made a
Vote, wherein they desire their Lordships Concurrence; videlicet,
"That it be referred to the Committee of both
Kingdoms, to consider and present their Opinions to
the Houses, of the Order to be held in the Proceeding
upon the Paper from The States Ambassadors."
and concerning Lord Howard's Ordinance;
"The Second Part of the Conference was, concerning the Ordinance touching the Lord Howard of
Esc. wherein the House of Commons do not agree:
But they desire their Lordships, that William Lord
Craven may be assessed for his Twentieth Part, and
that whatsoever shall be so assessed may be conferred
upon the Lord Howard; and that it be referred to
the Committee at Haberdashers Hall, to collect and
levy the said Twentieth Part so assessed; and that,
after the Assessment so made, the Committee at Haberdashers Hall shall allow and pay to the said Lord
Howard Fifty Pounds per Week, and reimburse
themselves out of the said Twentieth Part.
and the Ordinance for raising Monies for the Counties under Sir W. Waller.
"The Third Part of this Conference was, concerning the Alterations made by their Lordships in the
Ordinance concerning the Four associated Counties
whereof Sir Wm. Waller is to be Major General.
"The Clause as it went from [ (fn. *) the House of Commons to] the Lords, to which the Lords inserted
their Three Amendments:
"And be it further Ordained, That all the Forces
raised, or to be raised, in the said associated Counties, shall be kept entirely, and not to be drawn forth
out of the said Counties, or kept or continued forth
upon any Service, without the Knowledge and joint
Consent of the said Sir Wm. Waller, and the said
Committee that shall be appointed by virtue of this
present Ordinance, to be continually in the Army
with the said Sir Wm. Waller, while they are together, or (fn. †) of One of them while they are distant one
from another, or without particular Direction of Parliament, or of the Committee appointed for the ordering and directing all Matters concerning the War;
by Ordinance of both Houses of Parliament.
1. They consider, that the Forces mentioned in the
said Ordinance are to be raised and maintained at the
Charge of the associated (fn. ‡) Counties; and therefore
they hold it good Prudence, to comply with the reasonable Desires of those Counties in regulating of
those Forces; they understand it to be the Desire of
those Counties, that those Forces should not be drawn
forth in any other Manner than as it is expressed in
"As to the First Amendments in the Title and Preamble of the Ordinance, the House of Commons
doth consent to them, with this Explanation to be
inserted before the last Proposition in that Ordinance:
"Provided always, and be it Ordained, by the Authority aforesaid, That, in the Absence of his Excellency the Earl of Essex Lord General, the said Sir Wm.
Waller shall command, and have the full Power of a
Commander in Chief, in the said associated Counties,
over all the Forces raised, or to be raised, as aforesaid, notwithstanding any Expressions in this present
Ordered, That this (fn. ‡) House agrees with the Desire
of the House of Commons, concerning the assessing of
the Lord Craven for his Twentieth Part; and the Committee for assessing of the Peers is hereby appointed
to meet To-morrow Morning, at Eight of the Clock, to
assess the Lord Craven and the Earl of Arundell.
Report concerning appointing Committees, to join with the Scotch Commissioners to treat about a Peace.
Next, the Earl of Lyncolne reported to this House,
That the Committee have considered what is fit to be
communicated to the House of Commons, at a Conference, concerning the late Conference with the
House of Commons;" and the Paper of their Opinions was read:
"The Lords have always been ready, upon every
Occasion, to join with you in any Thing that concerneth the Good of the Kingdom; and are now most
willing to agree with you, to consider and prepare
Grounds whereby all His Majesty's Dominions may
enjoy a happy and safe Peace: But whereas it is desired that the same should be referred to the Committee of the Two Kingdoms, the Lords do consider,
that many of the Members of that Committee, both
Lords and Commons, are such as are by their Employments engaged to be upon Service abroad, and
thereby necessitated to be absent from this, which
is of so great Importance, and requires the best and
ablest Assistance, they having already the whole Care
of managing the War; so as to add unto them this
further Employment must needs be some Prejudice
to the Public Service, so few of them being in a Possibility to attend it.
"And the Lords desiring to retain the ancient approved Parliamentary Way, for each House to nominate their own Members as Committees, and this
being a new Power to be given to them, have named
a Committee of Nine Lords of their House; and desire that you will name a proportionable Number
of your House, to join with them, to treat with
the Commissioners of Scotland for the Purpose aforesaid.
"And the Lords are the rather encouraged to expect a chearful Concurrence from you, because the
Ordinance that came from you did restrain the Committee in the former Ordinance from treating of
Peace; and they having now named their own Members, if any Delay be used in a Business they so
much desire to advance and expedite, they hope it
will not be imputed to them."
And it was Resolved, upon the Question, That this
House will communicate this Paper to the House of
Commons, at a Conference.
Committee for that Purpose.
Hereupon the House nominated these Nine Lords, as
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Paper from The States Ambassadors.
Ordered, That this House thinks fit that the Paper
of The States Ambassadors be referred to the aforesaid
Committee of Nine Lords.
Message to the H. C. for a Conference, concerning these Matters.
A Message (fn. *) was sent to the House of Commons, by
Serjeant Whitfield and Dr. Aylett:
To desire a Conference, by a Committee of both
Houses, touching the Business of Peace delivered to
them at a late Conference, and concerning the Paper
delivered to the Lords from The States Ambassadors.
Report of the Conference concerning the Oath of Secrecy.
The Lord Wharton this Day reported the Conference
with the House of Commons formerly, concerning the
Oath of Secrecy, &c.; videlicet,
That Mr. Rous delivered at the Conference, That
the Parliament hath been inforced to maintain Religion, the Parliament, and Laws, by a Defensive
"The managing of this was, by an Ordinance of
both Houses, put into the Hands of a Committee with
the Scottish Commissioners.
"This Committee is the Ship wherein all those
Things as far as concerns the War are included.
"A Leak in this Ship will undo it, and all that is
"Some Votes of your Lordships do endanger to
make a Double Leak, to the endangering of this
"If it hath not Secrecy, the Counsels will be let
out; if the Power be let out, as good no such
"As to that of Secrecy, your Lordships have voted
and declared, That it is the undoubted Right and Privilege of a Peer that sits in this House, to come to any
Committee of this House, or of both Houses, and
particularly to the Committee of both Kingdoms
lately made by the Ordinance of Parliament, intituled, "An Ordinance for the appointing a Committee of both Houses of Parliament, to join with
the Committee and Commissioners of Scotland, for
the better managing the Affairs of both Nations in
the common Cause, according to the Ends expressed
in the late Covenant and Treaty between the Two
Nations of England and Scotland."
"Now, if any Peer may come to this Committee, it
gives the same Liberty for any Member of the House
of Commons; and so there would be no Use of the
Committee, in Point of Secrecy, more than if the
managing of the War were in both Houses at
"As to that of Power, your Lordships have voted,
That, when the Lord General at any Time receives
Directions from the Committee appointed by both
Houses of Parliament to treat with the Scottish Commissioners, if he see Cause to the contrary, he may
suspend the Execution thereof until he have acquainted both Houses of Parliament therewith.
"And though this Vote passed Two Days before the
Ordinance, and so may be thought void; yet it cannot be thought that it stands for nothing; nothing
of nothing would not be voted.
"If this Vote refer to something, then it must look
to the Ordinance; and if so, then 'twould be lawful for the Lord General not to pursue the Directions
of the Committee till he acquaint both Houses; and
then the Secrecy is gone.
"The Steps of the Proceedings are to be observed in
Point of Time.
"8 Feb. the Ordinance was sent up by the Commons, and Three Conferences had upon it.
"14 Feb. the Vote passed, That my Lord General
might suspend the Execution of any Directions from
the Committee, till he have acquainted both Houses
therewith, as (fn. *) by the Votes appears.
"16 Feb. the Ordinance was passed unanimously.
"21 Feb. the Vote passed, That it was the undoubted
Right and Privilege of a Peer, to come to any Committee, &c.
"24 Feb. the Oath of Secrecy was rejected.
"27 Feb. the Message delivered thereof to their
own Messengers at the Bar.
"The House of Commons, for the maintaining of
good Understanding between the Two Houses, hath
not usually received negative Answers by their own
Messengers, neither have returned negative Answers
by the Messengers of the Lords; as neither the King
doth to the Bills of the Two Houses, but by such
Words, Le Roy s'avisera; direct Denial seeming to
cut off further Consideration and Conference concerning the Matter proposed in a Message, especially
in this Case, wherein a Negative is returned before
any Reasons proposed or heard, and which, being
heard, might have altered the Opinion of either
House; which the Commons have the more Reason to
resent, because the Lords, having voted Reasons in
their own House, would not vouchsafe to communicate them to the Commons.
"And having made Mention hereof, they do especially insist on the Matter itself contained in the Message, together with other Votes of the Lords relating
to the same Business for which the Oath of Secrecy
was proposed: First, in the Ordinance itself, is acknowledged a great Usefulness and absolute Necessity
of this joint Committee, for receiving the Desires,
and communicating Counsels of both Kingdoms, for
the common Cause of Religion and Liberties.
Reasons for the Oath of Secrecy:
1. That these Uses will be altogether ineffectual,
and wholly lost, without Secrecy; and an Oath being
the most solemn and usual Band of Secrecy, it seems
in this Case to be of absolute Necessity.
2. Likewise the Parliament, for this very Reason
of Secrecy, did restrain the Matters contained in the
Ordinance to a lesser Number of Persons; and for the
same Reason, the House of Commons thought it fit
that their Debates and Resolutions should be under
an Oath of Secrecy.
"3. And also most of the Things contained in our
Protestation and Oaths are such as Parliament-men
were bound to perform without an Oath, which
Oaths and Protestations were submitted unto and
"4. It will give greater Confidence, Security, and
Encouragement, to those that are without, to make
Discoveries; and a greater Confidence and Freedom
in the Debates of the Committee itself.
5. It will prevent the Temptations which may arise
from Curiosity and Inquisitions.
6. And lastly, the Committees will be subject to
"Reasons against the First Order of the Lords, of
the 14th of February:
1. It will destroy the Privacy and Expedition intended by the Ordinance, if the Lord General may
suspend the Execution until the Houses be acquainted.
"2. The Scottish Commissioners having a joint Power
of ordering and directing the Affairs in that Ordinance, with relation to the carrying on of the War
by the joint Forces of both Kingdoms, this Appeal
to both Houses doth wholly abrogate this Power as
Reasons against the Second Order of the Lords, of
the 21 Februarii:
"1. If the Lords, then the Commons may come to
this Committee; and so the whole End of the Ordinance is destroyed.
2. In Case that either House may not, upon emergent Occasions, make a Private Committee, to which
other Members may not resort, it would be a Denying
of Means to either of the Houses to manage particular and special Business to the most and best Advantage.
Reasons against both Orders together:
1. That it is Unparliamentary, and of ill Consequence to all Ordinances and Laws that may pass
in Parliament, if it may be in the Power of either
House to vote a dormant Sense upon any Law or
Ordinance, other than the Sense of the Ordinance
or Law itself; and it will very little differ from the
Case of the King's giving a private Sense upon the
Petition of Right, to alter that Sense to which He
gave His Parliamentary Consent; and what Resentment the Houses had of that, appears by their Proceedings thereupon.
"2. The House of Commons do the more resent
these Two Orders in this particular Case (because
the Committees of the Houses, by this Ordinance,
are to be joined with the Commissioners of Scotland,
for the managing of the Particulars contained in
the Ordinance), as that which may be of dangerous
Consequence, and a Cause of Jealousy to the Commissioners here, that there should be any Orders in
either House which might carry any other Sense
beside what is contained in the Ordinance itself,
whereby the Committees are ordered to treat with
them; and from these Proceedings, Doubts may arise
that there may be some Orders in the Houses, which
may alter the true Sense and Meaning of the Treaty,
and other Public Transactions between the Two
"Upon the whole Matter, the Desire of the House
of Commons is,
"1. When the Lords do send Negatives to any Message, that they will do it in the usual Parliamentary
"2. That an Oath of Secrecy be passed.
"3. Thirdly, That the Two Orders beforementioned may be by them declared void.
The House of Commons desires a good Correspondence with their Lordships.
That they are very sensible of the ill Consequences
if it should be otherwise; but such are the present
Inconveniences in the Miscarriage of these Affairs, as
may appear by what hath already been represented,
as that he was commanded, in the Name of the Commons of England, to let your Lordships know, that
if this great Cause, that concerns Religion and all
that is dear unto us, shall miscarry for Want of your
Lordships Concurrence in those just and necessary
Ways, which, according to their Duty, they have
proposed for the carrying of it on, they have removed the Guilt of it from their own Doors: Nevertheless, according to the Trust reposed in them,
they shall continue to do that which, in their Judgement, and they hope in the World's, shall be most
needful for the perfecting the pious and glorious
Work which is in their Hands, for God and the
"The House of Commons do now bring up to their
Lordships an Oath for Secrecy, with some Alterations from the last Oath of Secrecy, wherein they
desire their Lordships Concurrence."
Ordered, That this House will take the Matter
of this Report into Consideration on Monday Morning
Message from the H. C. with Two Ordinances.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons,
by Mr. Greene and others;
To desire their Lordships Concurrence in Two Ordinances:
1. Concerning the making of Gunpowder in England
2. Concerning Tonnage and (fn. *) Poundage.
The Answer returned was:
That their Lordships will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.
Randall sworn, to be examined at Haberdashers Hall.
This Day John Randall was sworn at this Bar, and
is to be examined by the Lords and Commons at Haberdashers Hall.
Upon reading the Petition of James Southby Merchant: It is Ordered, That his Petition be referred
to the Lords and Commons for Sequestrations, to take
the same into their Consideration.
Answer from the H. C.
The Messengers return with this Answer from the
House of Commons:
That they will give an Answer, as is desired.
The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the
Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the
House was resumed.
Paper from The States Ambassadors, for bringing about a Peace.
"It is almost Two Years since our Lords The States
Generall of the United Provinces of The Lowe Countryes
having with much Displeasure, understood the Distractions of these Kingdoms, had ordained us their
Ambassadors to go and present their Interposition,
thereby (if it could be done) to mediate an Accommodation betwixt the King and His Parliament.
"The Hope (fn. *) their Lords conceived that these
Affairs might (fn. †) of themselves turn from ill to better,
made them to delay our sending; but, seeing the
Mischance should here come to a full Measure, and
burst out into an open War, our said Lords have
been induced to return to their former Care, and
have sent us presently into this Kingdom, to propound an Accommodation, and to present to the same
"The King hath so much yielded to our Offer, that
His Majesty hath declared that He liked well of our
Interposition, and accepted the same, and an Overture of a Treaty; and we do not doubt, if the Thrice
Noble and Honourable Lords and Commons of the
Parliament, for Reasons that concern the Conservation of the true Religion, the Good of the King and
of these Kingdoms, and of so many Millions of People
(which otherwise are and shall be exposed to all
Hazards of a certain Ruin), do condescend to a Conference and Treaty of Peace, to which we will present our Interposition and Mediation if it shall be
liked, but that the great God of Peace and Concord will within a little while grant a good and happy
Issue to these bloody Troubles and Miseries; which
to attain, we will not spare any sincere and most affectionate Duties, according to our Instructions, and
such as may be expected from a State in Friendship,
and from those who, in the common Profession of
the true Religion, and in Interests, being so streightly joined, will esteem both the Good and Evil of
this State to be unto them most sensible and unseparable.
"Delivered by the Ambassadors of the said
Lords States, unto Monsieur the Baron
Gray of Warke, Speaker, to be communicated to the Lords of the Parliament, this
14th of March, 1643."
Order for 100 l. to Mr. Peters.
"It is this Day Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That One Hundred
Pounds shall be forthwith bestowed upon Mr. Peters,
in Testimony and Acknowledgement of his good Service done to the Kingdom, in this great Cause of
Religion and Liberty, both here and abroad; and
that the Committee at Habberdash'rs Hall do forthwith pay the said Hundred Pounds to Mr. Peters,
or such as he shall appoint to receive the same."
Order for 1000 l. to Sir W. Brereton.
"Whereas, by an Order of both Houses, of the
29th of February, Five Hundred Pounds was appointed presently to be paid, upon Accompt, to Sir
William Brer'ton, assigned unto him by Order of both
Houses, towards the providing of Arms out of the
Monies that come in at Habberdashers Hall, and the
Residue that the said Arms shall amount unto by
Month and Month, till the whole Sum that the said
Arms should come unto were paid; the which Sum of
Five Hundred Pounds he hath already received: For
the better and speedier expediting of Sir William
Brer'ton upon the Service of the State, it is Ordered, by the Lords and Commons, That the said
Committee at Habberdash'rs Hall do forthwith pay
unto the said Sir William Brer'ton, upon Accompt,
for the Uses aforesaid, One Thousand Pounds more."
House adjourned till 9a cras.