DIE Veneris, 5 die Aprilis.
PRAYERS, by Mr. Mew.
Lords present this Day:
Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.
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L. General.
L. Admiral.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Lyncolne.
Comes Kent.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Comes Stamford. |
Ds. Hunsdon.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Willoughby of Parham. |
Answers from the H. C.
The Messengers sent Yesterday to the House of
Commons return with this Answer:
That they agree to refer the Consideration of the
great Abuses in the inferior Officers that manage the
Sequestrations to the Committee of Lords and Commons.
The Messengers sent Yesterday to the House of Commons return with this Message:
That they agree with their Lordships in the Ordinance concerning the Six Hundred Barrels of Gunpowder for the Navy.
Redemption of Captives at Algiers.
Upon reading the Petition of many poor Women, on
the Behalf of their distressed Husbands and Children,
who are miserable Slaves and Captives in Argier, desiring
their Lordships would please to take their Condition
into Consideration, and Order some Course for their
Releasement:" Hereupon this House Ordered,
That it be referred to these Persons following; videlicet,
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Mr. Wm. Cockaine.
Mr. Rob't Edwards.
Mr. Thomas Burnell.
Mr. Richard Midleton.
Mr. Wm. Ashwell.
Mr. Tho. Chamberlaine. |
Mr. Thomas Lenthall.
Mr. Wm. Bateman.
Mr. Job Throgmorton.
Mr. Rob't Addie.
Mr. Rowland Wilson, and
Mr. Richard Legg. |
Who are to consider of some fit Ways and Means
for the Redemption of the Captives at Argiers,
and to report the same to this House.
Justice Reeves, Leave to be absent.
Ordered, That Mr. Justice Reeves shall have Leave
to go to his House in the Country, for his Health Sake,
and return the Saturday before the next Term.
Heads for a Conference, concerning the Grounds of Peace, and the Dutch Papers.
The Earl of Lyncolne reported, "That the Lords
Committees have prepared something by Way of Answer and Accommodation to the Matter of the last
Conference with the House of Commons:"
Which Paper was read.
And it was Resolved, upon the Question, That these
Reasons shall be offered to the House of Commons, at
a Conference.
Message to the H. C. for the Conference.
A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by
Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:
To desire a present Conference, upon the Matter of
the last Conference, the Committee of Nine, and the
Two Papers.
Message from thence, with some Particulars for Concurence.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons,
by Sir Symons D'Ewes:
To desire their Lordships Concurrence in several Particulars.
The Answer returned was:
Answer.
That this House will send an Answer by Messengers
of their own.
Report concerning the Powers of the Scotch Commissioners, to treat about Peace.
The Lord General was appointed, at this next Conference, to deliver the Paper of the Effect of what he
said at a former Conference, because of the Mistake of
the Report in the House of Commons.
The Earl of Lyncolne further reported from the Committee, "That they have considered of that Part of the
Scottish Paper as concerns Peace; and the Committee,
upon Perusal of it, find the Scottish Commissioners
have only Power to consult and advise, but not to conclude; therefore the Committee offer it to the Consideration of this House, whether it be not fit to have
some Lords join with a Committee of the House of
Commons, to see their Powers in this Particular."
The Consideration of this Business is deferred until
To-morrow.
Answer from the H. C.
The Messengers sent to the House of Commons return with this Answer:
That the House of Commons will give a present Conference, as is desired.
Reasons of the Lords, for adhering to their Resolutions, to refer the Grounds of Peace and the Dutch Papers to a new Committee.
The Lords went to the Conference; and the House
was adjourned till 9 a cras.
When the Conference came up unto the Lords
concerning the Grounds of Peace, upon the 15th of
March, which was by the House of Commons desired
to be referred to the Committee of the Two Kingdoms, the Lords considered that that Committee was
appointed by Ordinance for another Purpose of a
very dissering Nature, and all Consideration of Peace
expressly prohibited to them in a Proviso: The Lords,
well knowing that it is their undoubted Privilege to
have the Liberty to nominate a new Committee of
their own House when any new Power was to be
granted, Resolved accordingly, upon serious Debate
by a Question, That this new Power of laying Grounds
for a just and safe Peace should not be referred to
the former Committee appointed for managing the
War, but to a new Committee of Nine, the Number
whereof the Lords did acquaint the House of Commons with, without naming the Persons, as the House
of Commons well (fn. *) know the Custom hath ever
been; neither need the Lords nominate the Persons
in their own House, unless they please, until they receive Answer from the House of Commons that they
agree to nominate a proportionable Number.
Upon the 19th Day, at another Conference desired
by the House of Commons, there was communicated
unto the Lords a Paper received from the Dutch Ambassadors, with a Desire, that should likewise be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms.
Upon the 20th Day, before the Report of that
Conference was made, their Speaker informed them
of a Paper of the Dutch Ambassadors, received by
him Five or Six Days before; but, not finding an
Opportunity sooner, he then delivered it, and it was
read, so that the House was possessed of it before the
Report was made of the Conference; and being found
to be a Business tending to the same End as the other
represented at the former Conference concerning
Grounds of Peace, the Lords did presently resolve to
put it into the same Way; and if, by any Mistake of
the Clerk (before the Lords of the Committee for the
Journal Book had Leisure to view it), it was not entered accordingly, that can be no Prejudice to their
Proceedings; and, though the Persons were not nominated till that Day, yet the Committee was resolved upon Five Days before.
This being the true State of the Business, the
House of Lords are fully persuaded that they have
great Reason to adhere to their former Opinion, of
referring the Paper of the Dutch Ambassadors to the
Committee of Nine; for the Lords are abundantly
assured, that constant Prescription is on their Side,
that though either House respectively may desire to
refer any subsequent Matter to a former Committee,
yet either House have a free Liberty to dissent from
such a Desire, and are not obliged to express the
Reasons which induce them to that Dissent, if they
please to reserve them to themselves: But, though
the Lords ought not to be urged to give any Account,
or render a Reason of the Acts done in their House,
yet they are freely willing, for the better Satisfaction
of the House of Commons, to add some Reasons, and
repeat those formerly given at a Conference, whereunto the Lords believe that the Commons have not
as yet given any satisfactory Answer; and, though
it be a Circumstance only which makes the Difference
in Opinion at this Time betwixt the Two Houses, yet
it is such a Circumstance as is of great Consideration
in sundry respects:
1. Because, this being a new Power, the Lords do
think it cannot be granted but by a new Ordinance;
therefore, as it is most free to them, so it is most proper, to name a new Committee to that Purpose.
2. If it should be admitted that it might be done, yet
in this particular Case the Lords House hold it unfit that
the Matter of Peace should be referred to the former
Committee of the Two Kingdoms, because it doth
consist for the most Part of such Men as must necessarily be absent upon other Employment: Therefore
the Lords did judge it to be most expedient to name
this Committee of Nine, the most whereof are like
to be present to attend that Service; for this Committee being, as you call it, a Ship, which contains the
Power of managing the War already, the Lords cannot be persuaded that Three Lords and Nine Commoners can be sufficient to man this Ship; for, if this
new Power should be granted which the House of
Commons do desire, she would then be laden with
whatsoever is dear unto the Three Kingdoms; and
therefore, being a Trust of so universal a Concernment, the Lords dare not consent to delegate this
Power to so small a Number.
"3. Though it is said that this Power is only to prepare Grounds of Peace, the Lords think that will be
the same in Effect with that Ordinance first sent down
from the Lords House; which they believe the House
of Commons, in their grave Wisdoms, saw good Cause
to wave, and send up another to them, which contained this Restraint for medling with Peace, unto
which the Lords readily and chearfully agreed.
"Now then, if the Lords should be tied to refer
whatsoever concerns Peace unto the same Committee,
and no other, it were in Effect to revive the Powers
of that Ordinance, which the House of Commons
themselves did manisestly disapprove of.
"4. Because the Lords did from the Beginning desire to retain the ancient approved Custom of chusing
Committees respectively in each House, however they
yielded to pass the former Ordinance in respect of
the present Exigents, there being an urgent Necessity
for some to treat with the Scotts; but the Lords
always intended that (before the Expiration of the
Ordinance now in Force) to consult with the House
of Commons of finding out some Expedient that
might be more satisfactory, to both Houses.
"5. Because the Lords are confident that there can
be no Pretence of Necessity of Secrecy in the Agitation of the Business of Peace, as in that of War;
but, according to the old Maxim, Quod omnes tangit,
ab omnibus debet tractari; and therefore no Reason
any Lord should be debarred the Freedom to be present, and to contribute his best Assistance at this Committee, according to the Words in the Writs, Quod
personaliter intersitis, de arduis Negotiis cum Magnatibus
Colloquium babere et tractare, vestrumque Confilium impendere.
For that Objection, that there will not be a sufficient Number of the Scottish Commissioners to make
a Quorum for Two several Committees;
Answer: Business of so heterogenial a Nature as
War and Peace cannot be in Agitation both at once;
and if at several Times, the same Quorum will serve
for both as well as for One.
"Whereas it is said by the House of Commons, that
to make Two Committees will put the Business into a
dilatory Way; the contrary where of doth appear to
the Lords, in regard they observe the usual Practice
of Parliaments hath been, to make several Committees
for Expedition, to the End that several (fn. *) Businesses
might be prosecuted at once, which is impossible can
be done by One Committee."