Sir J. Barnard presents a Petition from the Dealers in Tea, for Relief against the Excise Laws. ; Sir John Barnard's Speech in behalf of the said Petition.
February 4. A Petition of the Druggists, and others
dealing in Tea, was presented to the House, and read; alledging, that by an Act passed in the 10th Year of King
George I the Petitioners were induced to hope, that the
Duty arising from Tea would be better secured to his Majesty, and the Interest of the fair Trader be better supported,
but have fatally experienced the contrary Effects; the clandestine Importation of Tea being greatly increased, to the
Damage of the publick Revenue, and Ruin of the fair
Trader, occasioned by the great Difference of the Value of
that Commodity at this and foreign Markets, whereby the
Smugglers are enabled to purchase it Abroad for less than
half the Duty paid here: That the Regulations which the
Petitioners are laid under, are most burthensome and grievous, their Houses being liable to be entered by Persons unknown to them, and their Properties subjected to the judicial Determination of Commissioners: That the Petitioners
are liable to severe Penalties for Errors and Omissions absolutely unavoidable, and restrained from disposing of their
Goods, after having paid Duty for the same, without Permits from the Officer of the Inland Duties, expressing the
Names and Places of Abode of the Respective Buyers and
Sellers, exposing thereby the Extent and Circumstances of
their Trade; whereby the Petitioners conceived they were
in a worse Condition than any other of his Majesty's Subjects, and therefore praying the House to take the Premisses
into Consideration, and give them such Relief as to the
House should seem meet.' This Petition was presented by
Sir John Barnard, who spoke in Favour of the same as
follows:
Mr Speaker,
'As this Petition is the same with that presented to this
House last Session, I need not take up much of your Time
in opening it to the House. The Petitioners apprehend they
labour under very great Grievances, by their being subject to
the Laws of Excise; and as this House, in the very last
Session of Parliament, thought it unreasonable to subject some
other Sorts of Traders and Dealers to those oppressive Laws,
the Petitioners think they have Reason from thence to conclude, that this House will be ready to relieve them from
those Burdens.
'The chief Objection made to the Petition last Year was,
that it was signed only by a few, and those not the most
considerable Dealers in that Commodity, but now this Objection is intirely removed; for I am sure there is not a considerable Dealer within the City of London, who has not
signed this Petition. The great Frauds committed in the
running of Tea, which are daily increasing, are now become a very great and a general Grievance, not only with
respect to the Publick, but to the fair Trader: It is impossible for a Man, who honestly pays the heavy Duties upon
the Commodity he deals in, to sell so cheap as the Smuggler
may do, therefore, if some Stop is not speedily put to that
infamous Practice, we may expect in a few Years the whole
Trade of the Kingdom, so far as relates to our Home-Consumption, will be got into the Hands of Smugglers only,
and the Retailers who buy from them. It was expected
that the Alteration, made some Years ago in the Method
of collecting those Duties, would have prevented this infamous Practice: When that Project was first set on foot, I
remember, some People assured us, it would entirely put
an End to Smuggling; but Experience has taught us the
contrary; for since that Alteration it has been much more
general than before; so that we have subjected a great
Number of our Fellow-Subjects to infinite Hardships, without gaining thereby any Benefit to the Publick.
Debate thereon.
'As this Practice of Smuggling, which has of late so
much increased, must be likewise a considerable Detriment
to the publick Revenue, the Petitioners hope we shall take
the Affair again under our Consideration, and endeavour to
contrive some Methods for preventing this infamous Practice
for the future: If then the Relief of a great Number of
our Fellow-Subjects from Grievances they justly complain
of, if the Encouragement of the fair Trader, if the Increasing of the publick Revenue, are Considerations which
ought to weigh with a British Parliament, I am sure the
Case now before us, in which all three are joined, deserves
the utmost Regard of this House; therefore I cannot doubt
of the Petition's being referred to a Committee. And when
we go into that Committee, several Gentlemen will offer
their Opinions, and propose Expedients for the Relief of the
Petitioners, as well as for the Advantage of the Revenue:
But as these Things can't properly come now under our Consideration, I shall not give the House any farther Trouble
at present, but only to move, That the Petition may be
referred to the Consideration of a Committee of the
whole House.
Mr Perry. ; Mr Winnington.
The above Motion being seconded by Mr Perry, Mr
Winnington stood up and spoke as follows:
Sir,
'I can by no Means agree with the two honourable Gentlemen in the Motion they have made. The Relieving any
of our Fellow-Subjects from Grievances they justly complain of, the Encouraging of the fair Trader, and the Increasing the publick Revenue, are Matters indeed of a very
great Concern, and always deserve the utmost Attention of
this House, when they are regularly and properly brought
before us; but I cannot think that this Petition can properly
bring either of them before us, nor can I think it is now a
proper Time to go into a Committee upon this or any such
Petition. There is nothing that can be proposed in consequence of this Petition, but what may diminish the publick
Revenue, and as we are in a manner now just upon the
Brink of a War, I think it would be very unwise in us to
do any thing that may possibly diminish that Revenue, for
which we may soon have so great an Occasion.
'As to the infamous Practice of Smuggling, and the Frauds
committed in that Branch of the publick Revenue, which
the Petition relates to, I believe, every Gentleman would
willingly do something to prevent it, if possible; but the
Method, proposed by this Petition, appears really to me in
a very strange Light: It has been found, they say, that
the Laws of Excise joined with the Laws of the Customs,
have not been effectual for preventing all those Frauds;
and therefore Gentlemen propose, that we should take off
one of these Checks, and indeed, that which must be acknowledged to be the most effectual of the two, in order to
prevent Running for the future. I need not say any thing
to convince Gentlemen, that this Proposition cannot be supposed to tend to the Encouragement of the fair Trader,
or to increase the publick Revenue: As to the Petitioners,
if they are all fair Traders, they must acknowledge, it
would be so far from giving them Relief, that it would intirely ruin them.
'I should be glad to hear any Thing proposed for the
Benefit of the fair Trader, or Security of the publick Revenue: But for us to go into a Committee upon that Subject, when no Gentleman of this House can say that there
is any particular Method or Scheme to be proposed, would
be taking up the Time of the House to no Purpose. Besides, if there were really any Schemes to be proposed to
us for putting an End to Frauds and Smuggling, it is not
now a proper Time for us to enter into the Consideration of
them; for as it is now the last Session of a Parliament, and
considering the present Posture of Affairs of Europe, it
must be presumed that the short Time we have to fit will
be taken up in Matters of very great Weight, and which
require a more immediate Consideration, there cannot be
any great Inconvenience in putting off this Affair to another
Session; and therefore I must be against the Motion now
made, and shall move, That the Petition may be ordered to
'lie upon the Table.'
Mr Perry.
To this Mr Perry reply'd,
Sir,
'When this Motion was made by my honourable and
worthy Friend, I did not apprehend it would have met with
any Opposition; therefore I gave the House no other
Trouble than just to second the Motion: But now I hope
I shall be indulged a few Words in Support of it. It has
always been my Opinion, that while we fit here, no Time
can be improper for our taking into our Consideration a
Petition signed by such a Number of considerable Traders:
The Hearing of Complaints from the Subjects, and the Redressing of their Grievances, I have always understood to
be a chief Part of the Business of Parliament; and I am
sorry to hear it said in this House, that any Time is improper for such a Consideration, especially when it is not
so much as pretended, that the Complaints are frivolous, or
that the Petitioners are inconsiderable.
'The honourable Gentleman spoke of our being on the
Brink of a War, and therefore thought it unwise for us to
attempt to do any Thing that might lessen the publick Revenue: I believe no Gentleman in this House means to
lessen the publick Revenue; the very End of the Motion
now made is to endeavour something that may increase the
publick Revenue, by preventing those Frauds by which it
is greatly diminished. The Gentleman allows, that the
Laws of Excise and Customs, when joined together, are
ineffectual for preventing the running of Tea; but thinks it
strange, that the taking off one of those Checks should be
proposed as a Method for the preventing of running for the
future, and it would be so if this were the only Method;
but there may be some Method proposed, if we go into a
Committee upon this Affair, which will render the Laws of
the Customs singly more effectual against Smuggling than
both the Laws of Excise and Customs have been: In such
Case it will not appear strange to give a Relief to many
of our distressed Countrymen, by freeing them from the
oppressive Laws of Excise.
'If Gentlemen will examine this Affair a little, they will
find, that by adding the Laws of Excise to the Laws of
the Customs, they have neither given a Check to Smuggling, nor increased the publick Revenue, in Proportion as
the Consumption of that Commodity has increased of late
Years within this Kingdom. In 1716, the Duty upon
Coffee and Tea amounted to but fixty odd thousand Pounds;
From 1716 to 1724 that Duty continued subject only to
the Laws of the Customs, and yet so greatly did our Consumption increase within that Time, that in the Year 1723
the Duty amounted to 112,000 l. near double the Sum in
that seven Years which preceded the Alteration. This
can be attributed only to the Increase of the Consumption,
for it cannot be said, that the Custom-House Officers were
more exact and diligent, or the Smugglers less skilled in the
Arts of Deceit in that Year, than they had been in any of
the former.
'In 1724, the famous Alteration now complained of
was made: We cannot suppose the Consumption has since
decreased; on the contrary, as Tea has been sold cheaper
than ever it was before, we must suppose that the Consumption has greatly increased; and as by this Alteration
the unfair Traders were entirely put out of all their old
Arts of Smuggling, or at least of disposing of their run
Goods, we must suppose the Duty increased, and accordingly it did so till the Year 1729; when it amounted to
about 162,000 l. But by that Time the Smugglers began
to learn new Arts of Deceit, and to contrive new Ways of
defrauding the Publick; so that since the Year 1729, the
Duty has been decreasing, and is now reduced to less than
120,000 l. per Annum. From hence it must appear, that
the Publick has not gained much by the Alteration of the
Method of Collection, which lies so heavy on all the Dealers
in that Commodity.
'It is certain, that this Decrease in the publick Revenue
since the Year 1729, cannot be owing to any Decrease in
the Consumption of that Commodity; for it is of late Years
sold so cheap, that the very meanest of the People make use
of it. A poor Woman of my Neighbourhood, for whom
I had some Time before procured twelve-pence per Week
Charity, acknowledged to me, that she had Tea every
Morning for her Breakfast, and said that, except Water, it
was the cheapest Drink she could get; and therefore, as
the Consumption must be much larger, and the Produce of
the Duty very little superior now to what it it was in the
Year 1723, we must conclude, the Alteration now complained of has rather increased than diminished Smuggling.
'The honourable Gentleman should not have said it was
proposed to lessen the publick Revenue, or to take off any
of those Checks which have been laid upon Smuggling;
there has not been any Thing proposed, nor is it proper
there should, until we go into the Committee moved for,
which I have Reason to believe the House will agree to,
because I have not yet heard any one Argument offer'd
against it, but only of its not being now a proper Time.
This indeed has been almost the only Argument made use
of against most Things that have been proposed this Session,
and I really believe we are to hear no other from that
Quarter; but I must think, that it is a very unfair Way of
treating any Proposition; and however such Arguments may
prevail in this House, I am sure they will give but very
little Satisfaction without Doors.'
Mr Perry was opposed by Sir William Yonge.
Sir W. Yonge.
Sir,
'Notwithstanding what the honourable Gentleman who
made the Motion, and the honourable Gentleman who spoke
last have urged in Support of their Motion, I must
agree with my honourable Friend on the Floor, that the
present is not at all a proper Time, nor indeed are we
any Way prepared for going into a Committee upon the Petition before us. I am surpriz'd to hear it pretended that
no Argument has been offered against the Motion, but that
of its not being a proper Time; have not Gentlemen been
told, is it not well known that this is the last Session of a Parliament, which must always be pretty much hurried? And
therefore it is not proper to bring before us an Affair of such
a complicated Nature, and which will require so much
Time to search throughly to the Bottom of the Wound,
before we can so much as pretend to apply, or even to find
out a proper Remedy.
'Does not every Man know, that the present Posture of
Affairs in Europe may probably bring Matters of much
greater Importance before us, Matters of the highest Consequence to the whole Nation? Shall we then take up the
short Time we have to fit, in the Examination of Affairs relating to one small Branch of the Revenue, the delaying of
which until another Session, can be of no signal Disadvantage
to the Nation in general, or even to any private Man? We
ought to be the more cautious of entering into the Examination of this Petition, because it may bring before us a
great many such: Several Sorts of other Commodities are
subject to the Laws of Excise; if we once enter upon giving
Relief to the Petitioners, we may expect Petitions from the
Dealers in all those other Commodities.
'The Gentleman who spoke last has, I find, been at the
Pains to consider the Amount of the Duty upon Tea, for
seven Years before and seven Years after the Alteration in
the Method of collecting it; and I agree with him, that in
this last Year the Produce amounted to no more than
120,000 l. But I must take Notice, that his Method of
comparing the one with the other is neither fair nor just:
He has, out of the Time before that Alteration was made,
picked out the Year, when the Produce of that Duty amounted to the highest Sum that it ever did before the Alteration was made; and out of that Time since the Alteration
was made, he has picked out that Year, when the Produce
of that Duty was the lowest that it has been in any Year
since.
'I appeal to every Gentleman that hears me, if the fair
Way of stating this Matter is not, to compute the Amount
of the Duty for seven Years before, in order to fix a Medium for that seven Years; and next to compute the Amount
for seven Years after, in order to fix a Medium for that
Time, and then to compare the Mediums together. According to this Method it will be found, that the publick
Revenue has been increased above 34,000 l. per Annum. Besides this, the Gentleman forgot to mention Seizures, which
in this Case ought to be taken Notice of, and added to the
yearly Increase; by them it will be found there is an Addition of 20,000 l. a Year more made to the publick Revenue, which in the whole amounts to 54,000 l. a Year;
an Increase, which I believe no Gentleman in this House
will think inconsiderable; nor ought we to go rashly into
the changing of that Method, by which this Increase has
been made, especially when we are at least in Danger of
being upon the Brink of a War, as has been hinted by my
honourable Friend.
'I allow the Practice of running Tea is a Loss to the
Publick, and an Injury to the fair Trader, and is come to a
very great Heighth of late; but the Manner of carrying it
on is very different from what it was. The Smugglers now
travel 30 or 40 together, well armed and provided for a
desperate Defenc; they carry their Goods from House to
House, and actually murder the King's Officers: This dangerous Method they have been reduced to by the Laws of
Excise, and will any Gentleman desire to have that Check
removed, which has laid them under so great Difficulties?
'Gentlemen say, Arguments are not offered against what
they propose, or at least only such as are general; but, I
think, it has always been the Custom, when any thing new
is offered, those who are for it give their Reasons, and if
those Reasons cannot be sufficiently answered, the House
then agrees with the Motion. Now I wish those Gentlemen
would give us some particular Argument in Support of what
they propose, agree upon some particular Facts, and then the
Gentlemen, who seem to be of a contrary Opinion, would be
able to debate the Question fairly with them; but since they
have not been able to agree on any Facts, or to give us any
particular Reasons for referring this Petition to a Committee, I must conclude that even they themselves are not prepared for taking it into Consideration; therefore I hope it
will be ordered to lye on the Table.'
To this Mr Sandys replied:
Mr Sandys.
Sir,
'The honourable Gentleman, who spoke last, desired we
might agree on particular Facts, and argue from those Facts.
This would be a proper and a reasonable Demand, if we
were now in a Committee upon the Petition; but as the only Question before us is, whether or no we shall go into a
Committee, I cannot think, that it is either proper or reasonable. It is acknowledged, that the Practice of Smuggling
is come to a very great Heighth, and I believe it will not
be denied, but that all those who are subject to the Laws
of Excise are under a great many Inconveniences, which
their Fellow-Subjects not liable to such Laws are free from:
This alone ought to be a sufficient Inducement for us to
go into a Committee; for in most Cases Petitioners, who
complain of Grievances, are to prove the Facts they alledge
before the Committee; and Petitioners are generally referred to Committees upon Suggestions only of Grievances,
which ought to be redressed; but the Case now before
us is much stronger, the Facts alledg'd by the Petitioners are allowed to be true, and the Grievances complained of such as ought to be redressed; yet some Gentlemen
are against so much as taking their Petition into Consideration. If this be treating our Fellow-Subjects as they
ought to be, I leave to the whole World to judge; but, upon the presenting a Petition, and upon a Debate whether
that Petition ought to be referred to a Committee, to desire
Gentlemen to agree upon particular Facts, especially when
the Facts must all be such as cannot be known to any but
those in the Management of the publick Revenue, is really
unreasonable: It is desiring Gentlemen to agree upon Facts
which it is impossible for them to know, 'till they can in a
proper Way have an Opportunity to inquire into them. If
the House should agree to go into a Committee upon this
Petition, I do not doubt but such Papers will be called for,
as will make it appear by undeniable Matters of Fact, that
not only the Petitioners ought to be relieved, but that something must be done for putting an End to the infamous
Practice of Smuggling: So that our not being able at present
to fix upon any particular Facts, is so far from being a Reason against, that it is a strong Reason for our referring this
Petition to the Consideration of a Committee. The Petitioners have very just Grounds to hope this House will take
off from them those Shackles, we most justly refused to put
upon the Dealers in Wine and Tobacco: They have as good
a Title to all the Liberties and Privileges of Englishmen as
any other Subjects, and I can see no Reason for distinguishing them from the rest of their Countrymen. In the present
Case Gentlemen need not be afraid of making a Precedent,
and laying a Foundation for a great many Petitions; there
are no Dealers in England followed by the Laws of Excise
as the Dealers in Tea are, except only the Dealers in Brandy; therefore, the giving Ear to the heavy and just Complaints of the Petitioners, can lay no Foundation for a Multitude of Petitions being brought in upon us from the Dealers
in other Commodities; for tho' there are other Commodities subject to the Laws of Excise, yet those go no farther
than the first Manufacturer; they do not follow the Commodity into the little Shops and Cellars of every petty Retailer.
Gentlemen tell us, that we are to have Matters of much greater Weight before us, which require a more immediate Consideration, and which will take up the whole of that short Time
we have to be together. I know nothing of greater Weight
than that of effectually securing the publick Revenue, encouraging the fair Trader, and relieving our Fellow-Subjects
from the Grievances they labour under; and I wish the Gentlemen would inform the House, what it is they think a Matter of much greater Weight. I am sure, if we are upon the
Brink of a War, it renders it much the more necessary for
us to take the Petition into our Consideration: As the War
can be supported only by the publick Revenue, if we are in
such Danger, it is the more incumbent upon us to take all
possible Methods to secure and increase that Revenue; and
as in time of War the fair Trader labours under many Discouragements abroad, it will become the more necessary to
take care that he shall labour under as few as possible at
home; and if we are threat'ned with a War, it is the Business of this House, and of every Man who wishes well to
the present Establishment, to be more diligent than usual in
conciliating the Minds of the People to his Majesty's Government, which can only be done by removing their Grievances as soon as we hear them: Thus, every Argument that
has been offered against going into a Committee, when duly
considered, appears to be a strong Argument in Favour of
the Motion; therefore, unless some more weighty Arguments
be offered, I am persuaded the House will not reject it.'
Mr Philips Gibbon spoke next:
Mr. P. Gibbon.
Sir,
'I stand up to agree with my worthy Friend, in the Motion he made for referring this Petition to a Committee of
the whole House; and as I have not yet heard any one Argument against it, I shall not take up much of your Time.
I have indeed heard Gentlemen argue against what they
imagine may be proposed when we go into it, which to me
seems a very preposterous Way of arguing; they first form
to themselves hideous Notions of what is to be proposed in
that Committee, and from thence they resolve to be against
going into any such Committee. I would be as unwilling,
as any Gentleman in this House, to do any thing at the present Juncture for lessening the publick Revenue, and I am
far from believing any such Thing is intended to be proposed; yet if I did believe it, I should be willing to hear
what Gentlemen had to say upon that Head, and therefore
would not be against giving them an Opportunity, especially
in a Case every Man allows to stand very much in Need of
Redress.
'I am of Opinion, those Gentlemen who shew so very
great a Concern for the Revenue, need not be so much afraid
that the giving a proper Relief to the Petitioners would diminish the publick Revenue; for I believe when proper Papers and Accounts are called for, and the Matter fairly and
fully examined, it will appear that the Revenue has been
no great Gainer by the Alteration some Time ago made in
the Method of collecting the Duty upon Tea: I believe it
will then appear, that the Increase of the publick Revenue
has not near kept Pace with the Increase of the Consumption; so that if those Gentlemen have really nothing else to
fear but a Decrease of the publick Revenue, they need
make no Difficulty of relieving the Petitioners. Gentlemen
say, the Session is to be but short, and therefore we have
not Time to enter into the Consideration of this Affair;
upon which I must say, those who talk so, seem to have
forgot one of the chief Ends of our Meeting here: The
Usage of Parliament anciently was, to grant no Supplies
till all Grievances were first redressed, but the Method seems
now to be entirely altered: Gentlemen find Time enough
to load the Nation with many and heavy Taxes, but can
spare no Time, it seems, to relieve the People from any
Burthen or Grievance they justly complain of. They who
talk so, must certainly have much more Assurance than I
am Master of: I wonder how, after such a Declaration,
they can with Confidence look their Constituents in the
Face, far less expect that they should again do them the
Honour to send them hither. Those Gentlemen really talk
of this House, as if they looked on it as a Register for
Taxes, and as if we had nothing to do here but to grant to
the Crown what Sums the Ministers should please to call
for: I hope, we are not yet come to such a low Pass; I
have still a better Opinion of this House than to believe, that
you will reject a Motion so reasonable and so necessary.'
Mr Plumer.
Then Mr Walter Plumer said,
Sir,
'I am so sensible of the Grievances of the Petitioners,
and the Necessity of doing something to put a Stop to that
growing Evil of Smuggling, that I have been in Expectation of this Petition ever since the Session began. The
Time I spent in the Country, during the last Recess of Parliament, happened to be where I had Occasion to see a great
deal of that infamous Practice; so that if there was no
other Motive for going into the Committee proposed, than
that of endeavouring to do something to prevent Smuggling,
that alone with me would be a prevailing Motive; and for
that Reason I am surpriz'd to see the Motion opposed by
any Gentleman; much more by those Gentlemen, who must
know much more than I do of the great Increase and fatal
Effects of this infamous Practice. In the County of Suffolk,
the Smugglers went about in such formidable Bodies, that
if something is not done to put a Stop to it, they may soon
threaten Danger even to our Civil Government: I have often met them in Gangs of 40 or 50 together all so well
mounted, that even the Dragoons could not come up with
them; and they give such excessive Wages to the Men that
will engage with them, that the Landed Interest suffers considerably by it: The common Price of a Day's Labour in
that Country is already got up to 18d. and, even at that
Price, it is with great Difficulty that the Farmers can get
Labourers; and how can it be otherwise? For all the young
clever Fellows of the County are employ'd by the Smugglers; from them they have half a Crown a Day while they
wait upon the Sea-Coast for the landing of the Goods, and
as soon as the Goods are landed, and they mount on Horseback to go about the Country to dispose of them, they have
a Guinea a Day, and are well entertained during their Attendance: Thus they find a much easier and more profitable
Employment than any they can have from the Farmer, and
while they are thus employ'd, all Improvements of Land
must remain in Suspence. Gentlemen may talk of the great
Check put upon Smuggling, by the joining of the Laws of
Excise to the Laws of the Customs, but they must allow that
that Project, from which so much Benefit was expected, has
proved altogether ineffectual; and I am afraid, that all other
Methods will prove ineffectual, as long as the Duty is so
high, and so much Advantage to be got by running. In
that Part of the Country where I was, Tea is generally
sold by Retailers in their Shops, at 5s. a Pound; and as
we must suppose the Importer to have a Profit upon Importation, and as the Duty amounts to above 4s. 9d. a Pound,
I leave Gentlemen to judge whether it is possible, to sell
by Retail at 5s. per Pound any Tea, upon which the Duty
has been honestly paid. It is easy to guess whence all this
Tea comes; the Smugglers buy it in Holland, at 2s. per
Pound, and from thence run it into this Country; the
Dutch buy it in the East-Indies at 6d. per Pound, so that
this Nation pays the Dutch 1s. 6d. per Pound for the Carriage. This must be a vast Loss to the Nation, and certainly so great an Advantage to Holland, that I am sure, if
there were now a Dutch Minister in our Gallery, he would
be extremely pleased to hear this Motion rejected; and
would not fail to acquaint the States General, how much
the Interest of Holland had, by some Gentlemen in a British
House of Commons, been preferred to that of Great Britain. I am amazed to find that some Gentlemen do not see
how much the Revenue suffers by the Practice of Smuggling,
and tho' I do not expect that they should take any great
Care of the Subject, yet I hope they will take some Care
of the publick Revenue, since they have the singering and
managing of it. Upon the whole, I must say, if we have
any Regard for the Subjects in general, for the Trade of
this Nation, for the publick Revenue, for the landed Interest, particularly the Tillage; we certainly must agree to go
into this Committee; I am sure nothing more worthy of our
Consideration can possibly come before us; therefore I shall
be most heartily for the Question.'
Mr H. Pelham.
Then Mr Henry Pelham spoke against the Petition.
Sir,
'I cannot say, indeed, with the Gentleman who spoke
last, that I have been in daily Expectation of this Petition;
on the contrary, I was in Hopes, as the Sense of this House
had been taken upon it last Session, the Petitioners would
have chosen a more proper Time for renewing their Request, than when we are upon the Brink of a War. Our
Situation is at present such, that to do any Thing which
might possibly lessen the publick Revenue, would be acting
otherwise than this House ought to do; the presenting it at
such a critical Juncture, seems really done with no other
View, but that of reviving those Clamours and Disturbances,
which were lately so artfully stirred up over the whole
Kingdom. It is impossible to talk either for or against committing a Petition, without entering some way into the Merits of it, and into what may be expected to be done in that
Committee: In this, if there is any Irregularity, the Gentlemen who have spoke for referring the Petition to a Committee, have been as guilty as those who spoke against it;
but in my Opinion, there is nothing more proper to be consider'd at present, than whether or no there can possibly be
any Thing proposed in that Committee, for redressing the
Grievances complained of in the Petition; for if no present Redress can be thought of, it would not be very consistent with the Dignity of this House, to go into a Committee upon any Affair, only to stare at one another, and
then to break up without hearing any Thing proposed, or
coming to any one Resolution; and as yet I have heard
nothing mentioned, nor so much as hinted at for us to do
in that Committee, but what might probably diminish the
publick Revenue, which is a Risque we ought not to run
at present. I am very sensible of the great Enormities committed by the Smugglers, especially in the adjacent Counties. The open and outrageous Manner in which they carry
on their Frauds is well known; but that Method of Smuggling is much more expensive, difficult, and dangerous,
than the private Way they had of carrying on that Practice,
before the Laws of the Excise were joined to those of the
Customs; it is likewise well known, how many Seizures
have lately been made, and how many of those Smugglers
have been quite ruined and undone; this must necessarily
discourage any new Undertakers in that Way, and will certainly put an End to the Practice. I shall not now pretend
to say, what Increase has been made to the publick Revenue, by subjecting Tea, Coffee, and Chocolate to the
Laws of Excise, but it is certain that Branch of the Revenue
has been since that Time increased, and I cannot think but
there was more Smuggling before than since that Alteration
was made; there were not indeed so many Seizures made
before, nor was Smuggling formerly carried on in so open
or so violent a Manner; so that it has since made a great
deal more Noise, and from thence most People conclude,
falsely I believe, that Smuggling has lately increased.
'It is true, most of those Things now under the Laws of Excise, are not so much followed after as Tea, which indeed makes
a Difference as to the Number of Persons who are thereby
subjected to the Excise Laws: But as to those who, by their
being Manufacturers of such other Commodities, are subjected
to such Laws, they certainly have as much Reason to complain of Grievances, as the Dealers in Coffee and Tea can
possibly have; and therefore they have as good Reason to
apply to Parliament for Relief. Have not the Malsters,
Brewers, Soap-boilers, and a great many others, as good a
Title to all the Liberties and Privileges of Englishmen, as
the Dealers in Coffee and Tea, or any other Subjects?
And the Reason for distinguishing both from the rest of their
Countrymen is, because the publick Utility and the Nature
of their Business, make it absolutely necessary to do so: If
we then take the Case of the Petitioners into our Consideration, can we expect but all the other Sorts of Traders,
who are, or imagine themselves in the same Circumstances,
will not apply to us for Relief? And will it be consistent
with the Justice of Parliament, not to take their Cases under
our Consideration, as well as the Case of the Petitioners?
Thus shall we open a Door for a great deal more Business,
than we shall have Time to dispatch in this Session or in
this Parliament. In the present Case, Gentlemen ought
to consider, that the Duties upon Coffee and Tea are appropriated to the Payment of the publick Debts; and therefore, before we attempt any Alteration, as to the Method
of collecting it, or any Thing that may possibly diminish it,
we ought to have the Consent of those who are interested
therein; and in case of a Diminution we ought to be well
assured of the Means to make it up in another Way. I
have always had, and shall have as great a Regard to the
Interest of the Subject, as any Member of this House;
and I do not doubt but the honourable Gentleman who
spoke last has the same: But I never could think the taking
Care of the Subject, and of the publick Revenue, were
distinct Considerations; they are certainly the same, and in
all our Deliberations in this House we ought to have a Regard to both. I agree, that something may, and ought to
be done, for putting an immediate Stop to the present Practice of Smuggling, but I think it more consistent with the
Wisdom of this House, not to enter upon so copious a
Field at the very Close of a Parliament; and therefore, as
one that wishes well to the Subject, as a Member of this
House, and as an honest Man, I shall give my Vote for
ordering the Petition to lie on the Table.'
Mr Pulteney spoke next in Favour of the Petition:
Mr Pulteney.
Sir,
'I find that all the Gentlemen, who have opposed this Motion now in your Hand, pretend to be of Opinion, that this
is not a proper Time for going into the Committee proposed. This was, I remember, the chief Argument made
use of in last Session of Parliament against taking this Petition
into our Consideration; then indeed they pretended, that
the Petition was signed but by a few of the Dealers in that
Commodity: But this Objection being now intirely remov'd
by the Gentleman who presented the Petition, they are obliged to have recourse to the other Objection, which they
then made use of. In last Session they told us, 'This Session
is near an End, we have not Time now to enter into the
Consideration of the Matters complained of in the Petition,
but next Session it shall be done.' Now we are in the next
Session, and in the Beginning of the Session too, they cannot tell us the Session is near an End: But they say, 'This Session will be but short, and as it is so near the Close of
a Parliament, we cannot now enter into the Consideration
of this Affair, but it shall be done next Parliament.' What
arrant Trifling is this? Can Gentlemen expect that this House
will be treated in such a Manner? Who is the Gentleman
can promise, that this will be done next Parliament? Can
he, who fancies himself the greatest Man amongst us, be sure
of having a Seat in next Parliament? Or if he has, can he
be sure that his Power and Sway will be the same? But why
should this be but a short Session? There is no Necessity,
that I know of, for putting an End to the Session so soon;
if there is, why did they not call us sooner? Those in the
Administration have the sole Advising of his Majesty, and it
lies wholly in his Breast when to call us together, as well as
when to put an End to the Session. Shall our Trade then
lie exposed to Fraud and Smuggling? Shall our Fellow-Subjects continue to groan under Loads of Oppression, only
because they are resolved this Session shall be a short One?
The honourable Gentleman, who spoke last, seemed to
think that this Petition was presented with a View only, as
he said, to revive the Clamours, and renew the Disturbances that were last Year without Doors. This I am surpriz'd
at! Shall our oppressed Countrymen be accused of having a
Design to raise Disturbances, when they complain to Parliament of the Grievances they labour under? Shall those who
sue to us in the most humble Manner, and pray that we
would take their Case into Consideration, and give them
some Relief if possible, be deemed seditious? No, they cannot be so much as suspected of having any such Design;
but if the present Motion be rejected, it will, and it ought
to revive those Clamours, and renew those Disturbances,
which were last Year most justly raised over the whole Kingdom, by a most wicked Scheme which was proposed in this
House: The Nation will from thence most justly conclude,
that the Scheme then set on Foot is not yet laid aside; they
will have Reason to fear, that an honourable Gentleman may
perhaps be able to persuade Gentlemen, at the Beginning of
a Seven Year's Parliament, to agree to that wicked Scheme,
which he could not persuade them to agree to immediately
before a new Election. If our Fellow-Subjects were intirely
relieved from the Oppression of Excise-Laws, it might not
perhaps be so easy to saddle us with them again; but the
Gentleman is resolved to preserve this as a Nest-Egg, as a
Foundation to build on, whensoever he has a Mind to take
up again his favourite Scheme. Gentlemen seem to be in
a Fright, as if the publick Revenue were to be diminished
or taken away; but I am convinced their Fears are groundless: All that is desired is, that we would go into a Committee, that we would take the Affair once seriously into our
Consideration, to see if any Thing can be done more effectually to secure the publick Revenue than it is at present,
and at the same time to grant some Relief to those who petition for it, and have a Right to expect it. This will give
us a Title to return to our Constituents with some Confidence; and I can see no Reason why we should leave to any
future Parliament the Honour of doing a Work, which will
be of such signal Service to their Country and to their Fellow-Subjects: The Grievance now complained of was,
without doubt, the Foundation of that wicked Scheme which
we had last Year before us; and I am convinced, no Gentleman who had the Honour of opposing that Scheme, will
agree to the rejecting of the present Motion; otherwise the
House must be much changed from what it was when an
honourable Gentleman, on seeing the Minority daily increase, and the Majority sicken away, was at last forc'd,
almost with Tears in his Eyes, to give up his favourite
Child, of whom he seemed to have a most extraordinary Opinion, when he said, 'That Gentlemen, who envied him
other Things, would some Day or other envy him the
Honour of that Project.' I am persuaded he still entertains the same good Opinion of it, and waits only for a
proper Opportunity to renew it; for which Reason he is unwilling that we should go into such a Committee as is now
proposed, left we should sap all the Foundations of any future Project for a farther Extension of the Excise-Laws.'
To this Sir Robert Walpole replied.
Sir R. Walpole
Sir,
'If I were to follow the Gentleman, who spoke last,
in all he has said, I must intirely neglect the Question
before us; but of late it has become so fashionable for
Gentlemen to run away from the Question, and say every
Thing their Fancies suggest to them, that it is impossible to
give them any Answer, and keep to the Order of Debate.
I cannot comprehend how I come to be any way personally
concerned in the present Question, yet most of what the Gentleman said seemed in a particular Manner to be directed at
me, which indeed is a Subject I always speak to with the
greatest Unwillingness, as it is very little worthy the Attention of this House. As to those Clamours which were lately,
or have at any other Time been raised without Doors, I
know that all the means human Industry was capable of,
have been employed to raise Clamour against me in all Parts
of the Kingdom; but it is my Happiness, that after ten
Years Endeavours for that Purpose, no Objection could ever
be made to my Conduct, except what proceeded from something I had proposed or moved for in this House. I am
not conscious to myself that I ever proposed any Thing in
this House, but what I thought consistent with my Duty, as
a Member of this House, as a good Subject, and as a Servant to the Crown; and in such Case, Gentlemen may talk
of the Privileges of Parliament, and of the Freedom of
Debate in this House, but if what a Man says is to be
misrepresented, and Clamours raised against him without
Doors, for what he honestly and fairly proposes, or gives as
his Opinion in this House, I must leave to the House to judge,
what their Privileges may in Time come to. As to the wicked
Scheme, as the Gentleman was pleased to call it, which he
would persuade Gentlemen, is not yet laid aside, I, for my
own Part, can assure this House, I am not so mad as ever again
to engage in any Thing that looks like an Excise, tho' in my
own private Opinion I still think it was a Scheme, that would
have tended very much to the Interest of the Nation, and I
am convinced that all the Clamours without Doors, and a
great Part of the Opposition it met with every where, was
founded upon artful Falshoods, Misrepresentations, and Insinuations that such Things were intended, as had never entered into the Thoughts of any Man I am acquainted with.
I will now try, if I may be allow'd to speak a few Words to
the Question now before us, but must first take Notice, that
I do not remember any Promise made last Session, that this
Petition should be taken into Consideration in this Session;
nor do I know any Person that could make such Promise, or
that can now say it shall be consider'd of next Session. I
am sure I never made any such Promise; but I believe any
Gentleman may say, that the next Parliament may, if they
please, take the Affair into their Consideration; and I think
it is an Affair of such Consequence, that it will be more
proper to enter upon it in the Beginning of a new Parliament, than at the very Close of an old one. It has been
pretended, that the Alteration made some Years ago, as to
the Method of collecting the Duties on Tea, has not prevented the running of that Commodity, nor increased the
Revenue in Proportion to the Increase of the Consumption;
to prove this, Gentlemen have been pleased to make Computations, but, as was before observed, they took a very unfair Method. As to the Running of Tea, the Alteration
made has not indeed entirely prevented it, but I am sure
it has made Running a great deal more expensive and dangerous; therefore one may with a great deal of Probability
conclude, that no such large Quantities of Tea have been
run since the late Alteration was made, as there were before
that Time; or at least it may be said, that as all Sorts of
Teas are now sold much cheaper abroad than they were formerly, and all our Smugglers are become more cunning, and
more bold and desperate, a great deal more of that Commodity would have been run in upon us, if that Alteration in
collecting the Duty had not been seasonably made. As to
the Increase of the publick Revenue, if Gentlemen will take
that Branch of it at a Medium for seven Years before and
seven Years after the Alteration, I believe it would be found
to have been a growing Revenue from that Time 'till the
Year 1729, when indeed it began to decrease; but that was
not owing to the new Arts found out by the Smugglers, but
to the Increase of their Profits by Smuggling; for in that
Year the Dutch had four Ships at China, and the French had
four more, by which they imported so great Quantities of
Tea, and were obliged to sell it so cheap, that they not only supplied those Places we formerly used to supply, but
greater Quantities of it were run in upon us, because the Increase of the Difference between the Price of that Commodity Abroad and the Price here, considerably increased the
Profits to be got by Running, which made the old Smugglers
run greater Risks, and engaged a great many new Adventurers in that pernicious Trade; and this is the true Cause
why that Branch of our publick Revenue began then to decrease; but if the former Method of collecting that Duty
had been then in use, it would have decreased much more
considerably; nay, I do not know but it might have almost
intirely vanished. Another Mistake which Gentlemen have
fallen into is, they have, as to the Produce of this Branch
of the Revenue for last Year, forgot to make any Allowances for the large Quantities now in the Warehouses of the
East-India Company, which must all pay Duty before it can
be removed in order to be sold for Home-Consumption; so
that to pick out any one Year for determining the Amount
of that Part of the publick Revenue, is a very fallacious Way
of computing, because it intirely depends upon the Sales
which the East-India Company are pleased to make, and not
upon the Quantity that is consumed within the Kingdom for
that Year, and yet Gentlemen have been so candid, as to
pick out this last Year, when the Produce was less than it
has been in any one Year since the Alteration was made, in order to compare it with the Year immediately preceeding the
Alteration, when the Produce was higher than it had ever
been before; and for this plain Reason, because, when that
Alteration began to be talked of, every Body imagined, that
it would inhance the Price of Tea, and therefore most private Families laid in great Stocks of Tea, before the Alteration took Place. When Gentlemen talk of going into Committees to consider of taking the Duties off of any Commodity, they do not surely reflect, that it would be entering
into an Affair which requires the most mature Consideration; there are many other Duties which ought to be lowered
or taken off, if it were possible; and if we were to go into
such a Committee, I do not know but it might be thought
more reasonable by many Gentlemen to take off the Duty on
Soap and Candles, than to take off, or even to lower the
Duty now payable upon Coffee and Tea; but these are Considerations which I cannot think proper to be entered upon
in the last Session of a Parliament; therefore I must be against
the present Motion, whatever Use may be made of putting
a Negative upon it: The rejecting of it may perhaps be made
Use of by some Gentlemen to raise new Clamours, and to
increase the Number of Cockades, with the sine Motto of
Liberty, Property, and no Excise; but whatever Hopes may
be conceived from such low Artifices, I entertain no Fears
about them, nor shall they ever deter me from declaring my
Sentiments freely upon any Subject that comes before this
House.'
Mr Speaker.
Hereupon the Speaker rose up, and said,
Gentlemen,
It is no Business of mine to appear on either Side of the
Question: But it is my Duty to take Notice, when Gentlemen are disorderly. There is nothing more irregular than
for Gentlemen to be personal in their Debates, or to mention
any Thing that has been said in a former Session of Parliament, or even only the very Day before.
Mr. W. Pulteney.
Upon this Mr Pulteney stood up again, and said,
Mr Speaker,
'It is certain there is nothing more irregular, than for
Gentlemen to be personal in their Debates, or to mention
any thing that has been said by any particular Gentleman
in a former Debate; but if I am the Person meant, I cannot think I have been guilty of any of these Irregularities:
I have said nothing but what related some way to the Question in Hand, or in answer to what had been said by some
of the Gentlemen who spoke before me. But now I'm up,
I'll just mention one Thing, with the Indulgence of this
House, which the honourable Gentleman who spoke last
seems to mistake; he seemed to me to talk as if Gentlemen
meant to take off the Duty on Tea: No Body, I believe,
has spoke of taking off that Duty; but if the Duty be too
high, or laid on in a wrong Manner, if we go into a Committee on that Affair, I doubt not but something may be
proposed for securing the Duty to the Publick more effectually than at present; and for levying it in a Way which may
be more convenient and agreeable to the Subject. We may
remember what was the Case of the Duty upon Pepper; that
Duty was found by Experience to be too high; it was lower'd, and even by the lowering of it, the Revenue came to
be a considerable Gainer. This may be found to be the
Case, with respect to Tea, but this we cannot judge of till
we go into a Committee upon it, and have all Papers proper
for our Instruction laid before us.'
Sir J. Barnard.
Sir John Barnard spoke next,
Sir,
'The honourable Gentleman over the Way has endeavoured to prove by Argument, the contrary of what is
known to be true in Fact. He granted, indeed, that the
subjecting of Tea to the Laws of Excise has not intirely
prevented the Running that Commodity; but then he said,
if it had not been subjected to the Laws of Excise, much
greater Quantities would have been run, because of the
great Difference that there has lately been in the Price of
Tea Abroad, and the Price of it in this Kingdom: Now,
I cannot believe there is, or has lately been, so great a Difference between the Price of Tea in foreign Parts, and the
Price at our East-India Sales; for it is certain that our East-India Company must and ought to regulate their Price according to the Price it bears in foreign Markets: They certainly buy it as cheap in China as any other Company can
do, and it costs them no more to bring it Home, therefore
they ought to sell as cheap as any Company does, otherwise
they cannot pretend to sell any of their Tea in a foreign
Market; and it is to be hoped, they do not make use of
their exclusive Privilege, to lay a Tax upon this Nation, by
making us pay dearer for their Tea than we can purchase
it from others: This indeed would give an Encouragement to
Smuggling, but this would be owing intirely to their making a bad Use of their exclusive Charter. For this Reason it is to be presumed, that in the Year 1729, when the
Price of that Commodity fell so much Abroad, it fell a
great deal likewise at our East-India Sales here; and therefore that Difference, which the Gentleman built so much
on, cannot be the real Cause of the Decrease of that Branch
of our Revenue since that Time; but this is a Fact which
we ought to inquire into, and a strong Reason for our going
into the Committee I have proposed.
'Tis true, the Laws of Excise do not contribute any thing
to the Encouragement of Running; this is what no Gentleman has asserted, but I am convinc'd they have contributed
nothing to the preventing of Running; and I am sure, if
it does not appear, that they have contributed very remarkably to the preventing of that infamous Practice, we ought
not to leave such a Number of our Fellow-Subjects, even
for the Space of one Year, under the Burthen of such oppressive Laws, otherwise it cannot be said, that we have
that Regard to the Ease of the People, which a British Parliament ought to have, and I hope will have. The Gentleman found Fault with the Computations made, but let
him make his Computations what way he will, I believe
it will be found, that the Increase of the publick Revenue
has bore no Proportion to the Increase of the Consumption;
and this last Increase, which must be acknowledged by every Man, is a good Reason why the Rule, which the Gentleman proposes for discovering whether the Revenue has been
a Gainer by subjecting Tea and Coffee to the Laws of Excise, ought not to be observed; for if the Consumption
gradually increas'd for seven Years before, and seven Years
after the Alteration in collecting the Duty on those Commodities, the Medium for the seven Years after, must be
much higher than for seven Years before, and yet the Increase of the publick Revenue cannot be said to be owing
to the Laws of Excise, but to the Increase of the Consumption. As to the great Quantities of Tea now in the
Warehouses of the East-India Company, and the larger
Quantities pretended to be bought up just before the Alteration took Place, it is certain the Company generally have
large Quantities in their Warehouses, and sell them off according to the Demand, which, as to our Home-Consumption, must be pretty near equal one Year with another; so
that if they have greater Quantities now than usual, it must
be because of the little Demand there is for their Tea at
foreign Markets; but whatever they sell for that Purpose
pays no Duty, therefore it cannot be said, that the Quantities they have upon their Hands must all pay the Duty, or
that a Variation in their Sales can ever much alter the
Amount of that Branch of the Revenue. Whether large
Quantities of Tea were bought up just before the Alteration
took Place, is what I shall not now pretend to determine;
but if we go into a Committee on this Affair, the Accounts
of Sales, and the Accounts of Tea exported in that Year
may be called for, and from them that Matter will appear;
so that every Fact the honourable Gentleman has been
pleased to mention, is a strong Argument for our going into a Committee upon this Affair.
'I find no Fault with the Duty on Tea being so high, I wish
it were higher than it is, if it were possible to collect it, because I look upon it as an Article of Luxury; therefore,
if the Duty on some Sorts of Tea were raised, and if all
the Tea that shall hereafter be seiz'd, was to be burnt and
destroy'd, I believe it would be much better for the Nation:
And this is an Answer to what an honourable Gentleman
said, That we ought not to go into a Committee, unless
we are well assured, some Gentleman has something to
propose; tho' I do not allow his Rule to be good, because, when a Committee is resolved on, and proper Papers
called for, Gentlemen may from them find something very
reasonable to propose to the Committee, which they could
not before think of: But in the present Case, this Argument
is of no Weight, for besides that already mentioned, I
could hint at several other Propositions which may be
thought reasonable. We are certainly in a wrong Method
at present, with respect to our Duties upon Tea: There is
a very great Difference in the Price of different Sorts of
Tea, and yet our Duty is upon all Sorts of Tea the same;
Tea of 2s. per Pound, pays as much Duty as Tea of 20s.
per Pound; and therefore, in my Opinion, if the Duty were
laid on ad Valorem, neither the publick Revenue, nor the
East-India Company would suffer so much by the large Quantities of low prized Tea, run in upon us from Holland and
Flanders. In Cases where the Duty far exceeds the prime
Cost of the Commodity, there is a very great Temptation
for Smuggling: A Man has more Profit when he gets two
hundred per Cent. on the Money he lays out, than when he
gets but one, or perhaps but 50 per Cent. and this will encourage him to run a greater Risk, and will engage more
Persons to become Adventurers. Upon this Consideration it
must be granted, that the Lowness of the Price of some
Sorts of Tea Abroad, may of late have contributed a little
to the Increase of Smuggling; but no Laws can in such
Case prevent the Practice; for where there is an excessive
Advantage to be got by a Man's being lucky, no Risk can
prevent his endeavouring to grasp at it, nor will the Misfortunes of some frighten others from becoming Adventurers:
This is the Nature of Mankind, therefore it is vain to imagine, that the joining of the Laws of Excise to those of
the Customs will prevent the Running of Tea, as long as
the Advantage to be got by it continues so extraordinary.
'Tho' every Man subject to the Laws of Excise is as liable
to Hardships as another, yet there is a very great Difference
between the Excise upon Tea, Coffee, and Chocolate, and
the Excise upon any other Commodity. By all our other
Excises, except Brandy, but a few People, none but the
first Manufacturers are made subject to the Laws of Excise,
and by most of them, there is a very great Addition made
to the publick Revenue; but as to the Excise upon Tea,
Coffee, and Chocolate, there is little Advantage got to the
Publick by that Method, yet by that Excise there are more
People, I believe, made subject to those oppressive Laws
than by all the other Excises. And surely, when we are
to subject any of our Fellow-Subjects to oppressive Laws, we
ought to consider their Number, and the Benefit which the
Publick reaps thereby, in order to compare the two together,
and from thence determine, whether the Advantage got by
the Publick bears such a Proportion, as may justify the laying so many of our Countrymen under great Inconveniencies: This shews that the giving Ear to the just Complaints
of the Petitioners, lays us under no Necessity of taking
the Case of any other Set of Men under our Consideration.
'As to the Consent of those, who have an Interest in the
Duty upon Coffee, Tea, and Chocolate, I believe we need
give ourselves no Trouble upon that Head; for as they are
certain, that the Parliament will not allow them to be Susferers, they will, as soon as asked, readily consent to any
Alteration we shall make, especially when it is for freeing
such a considerable Number of their Fellow-Countrymen
from great Hardships; but it will be Time enough to think
of this after we have come to the Resolution of going into
a Committee upon this Affair; therefore that Argument can
be of no Manner of Weight against the Question.'
Mr J. Cockburn.
Mr John Cockburn spoke next.
Sir,
'In our present Situation, I would be very far from agreeing to any Thing that could possibly diminish the publick
Revenue; but I am certain the Revenue can be in no Danger by our agreeing to the present Motion; for when we
are in the Committee proposed, if any such Thing should be
offer'd, Gentlemen may freely give their Negative to it,
notwithstanding their having given their Consent for going
into a Committee. I must say, I have not heard much Argument made use of by the Gentlemen who have opposed
this Motion: The whole of what they have said resolves in
this, that the Time is improper, because the Session is to be
but short; so that the true Question now before us, is, Shall
we allow so many of our Fellow-Subjects to labour under
what they apprehend to be a Grievance, without making
the least Inquiry into their Complaints? Or shall we sit three
or four Days longer than some Gentlemen intend we should?
As this seems the only Question before us, it is easy for any
Gentleman to determine, which Side he ought to take; I
shall most certainly be for going into the Committee moved
for.'
After him Mr Joseph Danvers said,
Mr Jos. Danvers.
Sir,
'I am so far from being for the Question before us, that I
think this House shews a great deal of good Nature, in allowing the Petition to lie upon the Table; for, in my Opinion, it ought to be rejected. I shall, indeed, readily be
for any Thing that may discourage not only the Running,
but the Importation of Coffee, Tea, or Chocolate; for I
wish we would or could be made all to return to the good
old Way of our Ancestors, in breakfasting upon good English
Ale and Bread and Cheese. Both the Men and Women of
those Days were, I believe, as strong and as healthy as they
are now, and yet what they made use of for Breakfast, did
not carry one Penny out of the Nation: However, I think
we may find out a much properer Time for inquiring into
this Affair, than the very last Session of a Parliament, and
a Session which must be taken up in considering Things of
much greater Consequence, not only to this Nation, but to
Europe in general. An honourable Gentleman talked much
of a Scheme, which was before us last Year, which he was
pleased to call a wicked Scheme; but I differ so far from
him, that I think the Gentlemen concerned in the Administration never did a Thing so wrong, as the giving up that
Scheme: I then thought, and still think, it would have
been very much for the Interest of the Nation, and I am
sure that it might have been carried, if those Gentlemen
had not of themselves let it drop.'
The Druggist's Petition drop'd.
Then the Question being put, for referring the said Petition to a Committee of the whole House, it was carry'd in
the Negative by 233 against 155.