Lord Sundon. ; Sir Robert Walpole.
February, 16. My Lord Sundon acquainted the House, that he
had a Petition in his Hand from the Dean and Chapter of
Westminster. Upon which he opened the Nature of the Pe
tition, and Sir Robert Walpole, by his Majesty's Command,
acquainted the House, that his Majesty being inform'd of
the Contents of the said Petition, recommended it to their
Consideration.
Then the said Petition was brought up and read, setting
forth that said Collegiate Church came into the Hands of
the first Dean and Chapter unfinished, and by Length of Time
and Badness of the Materials, became so ruinous, that in
the eighth and ninth of William III. in Regard to its being
of antient and Royal Foundation, an annual Sum for a certain Term of Years, was granted by Parliament for repairing the same, under the Direction of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, the Lord Chief Justice of the King's-Bench, and
the Dean of Westminster, who were appointed Commissioners
for that Purpose: And that by an Act passed in the ninth of
Queen Anne, a Sum of four thousand Pounds per Annum for
a certain Term of Years was granted to the said Commissioners, towards repairing and finishing the said Collegiate
Church and the Chapels of the same; and that in Order to the
finishing it, as directed by Parliament, Sir Christopher Wren,
then the Surveyor, form'd the Design of erecting a Spire in the
middle Tower, a Model of which he then prepared, and a Draught
of which with the rest of the intended Building, was laid before
this House, the last Session of Paliament; and that by Acts passed
in the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 10th, of his present Majesty, the several
Sums of four thousand Pounds each Year, have been issued
and applied towards carrying on the said Works: And an
Account how the same has been expended, has been annually
laid before this House, and that all the Monies granted as
aforesaid being expended, the said Works are now at a Stand,
which the Petitioners submit to the Consideration of this
House, acknowledging the Favours already conferred on the
said Collegiate Church, as well by the present as by former
Parliaments, and praying for the Continuance thereof.
Sir Wm. Yonge.
After which Lord Sundon mov'd, that the said Petition be
referred to the Consideration of the Committee of the whole
House, to whom it was referred to consider further of the
Supply granted to his Majesty. He was seconded by Sir
William Yonge, and then Sir Thomas Aston spoke to the
following Effect:
Sir Thomas Afton.
Sir,
'I remember a Story that was told of a great Favourite of
King Charles the Second. This Gentleman, who was a true
Cavalier, fought for the Father, and was banished with the
Son, whom he attended all the Time of his Exile. Upon
the Restoration of the Royal Family he still continued to
follow his Master's Fortune, but never minded his
own; 'till his continual Attendance at Court, his giving
into all the fashionable Expences of the Times, and the Figure which his Intimacy with his Majesty obliged him to support, at last exhausted every Shilling of his Estate. But
such was the Gentleman's Modesty, (a Virtue, you'll say,
very rarely to be met with in the Favourite of a Monarch)
that he never made one Solicitation in his own Behalf, tho'
he had many Opportunites of doing it. At last the King,
being informed of his Circumstances, took Occasion one Day,
as the Gentleman was solliciting a Post for one of his Friends,
to tell him, "Sir, says he, you have been a very faithful
and a very constant Servant to me; I have had great Satisfaction in your Company without your being a Shilling the
better for me, though I am persuaded your Estate has suffered confiderably in my Service. As you are a Man of
Sense, and fit for Business, why do not you ask something
for yourself ? The Gentleman made no other Return
to his Majesty at that Time but a profound Acknowledgment of the Honour he had received, by his Majesty's being so mindful of him; but some Time after, being all alone
with the King; Pray, Sir, says he to his Majesty, be so good
as to lend me half a Crown. Half a Crown ! answers the
King, what do you mean ? if you have Occasion for a larger
Sum, you may have it.— No, no, replies the Gentleman,
this small Piece does very well to begin with; for I have
often observed, that once put you in the Way of giving, it
is easy to keep you in it, and then you do not care how
much you give.
'Though this Story, Sir, especially as to the Modesty of
the Petitioner, may not in every Respect be parallel to
the Case now before us; yet I think there is something
in the giving Humour of the Monarch pretty applicable
to our Conduct on former Occasions of this Nature. The
Sum, Sir, that was originally asked for, and granted, for
Purposes mentioned in this Petition, could have made no
great Figure in the publick Accounts, had we stopt there;
but an Accumulation of that Sum, Sir, from time to time,
obtained when we were in the giving Humour, would make,
I think, no despicable Article, if applied towards the Discharge of some Part of the national Debt. Therefore, Sir, I
think we should rather stop now than later; and I hope this
Petition will lie upon the Table.
Mr. Worsley spoke next to the following Effect:
Mr. Worsley.
Sir,
'Though I have a most profound Respect for the Dean and
Chapter, and should be glad to see our Churches make a Figure
becoming the Grandeur of his Majesty and this Nation; yet,
I own, I cannot approve that the Disposal of the Parliaments
Bounty for that Purpose should be intirely in the Hands of
the Clergy. I do not speak this as if they were capable of
misapplying any Part of it; but merely from my having so
great a Respect for that venerable Body, that I am unwilling
they should be burdened with any other Cares besides those
of their Function, which are many and weighty. I am
therefore, Sir, surprised that the honourable Person who
brought up the Petition, should appear so pressing for us to
grant it; since it is certain we cannot do it without putting
these good Men to very great Trouble. The Overseeing of
a Work, Sir, that costs four thousand Pounds every Year,
takes up no small Part of a Man's Time; and though some
Laymen are joined in the Commission for managing this
Bounty, yet we know the Fatigue of it is intirely left to the
Reverend Clergy. Now, Sir, this is an Injustice done not
only to them but to the Laity also, who must suffer greatly
by their spiritual Guides having so many Avocations from
the Duties of their Functions; besides, Sir, we are to confider, that the Way of Life in which these Reverend Persons
have been educated, gives them no Opportunity of knowing the
Prices and Materials of Working Men, or of forming a right
Judgment upon the Sufficiency of their Work; both which
are very necessary Qualifications in the Overseers of a Business
of this Nature: So that I dare say, Sir, the Reverend Gentlemen will think themselves highly obliged to this House if
we should ease them of that Trouble; and this upon a double
Account. First, as they will have more Leisure for looking
after their spiritual Concerns, which, to such disinterested
good Men as they are, is a most invaluable Blessing; and
secondly, as we can put the Inspection of the Work into
Hands who will take care to have it done to the best Advantage, and at the least Expence. Therefore, Sir, I am for
letting this Petition lie upon the Table till a Lay Commission
for overseeing the Execution of the Work is made out.
Sir Robert Walpole said next:
Sir R. Walpole.
Sir,
I am intirely of the honourable Gentleman's Mind who
spoke first, in thinking that more Money has been expended
upon the Desire of this Petition than perhaps the Parliament
expected when they made the first Grant for this Purpose.
But that, Sir, is the very Reason, why, in my Opinion, we
ought to agree to the Petition; for it would be very absurd
in us, after the great Expence the Nation has been at on this
Account, if we should leave the Work unfinished to save a
trifling Sum. The Reasons that induced the Parliament at first,
Sir, to promote and encourage the Design of repairing and finishing this Church, were such as were worthy so august a Body.
Should we let the Church where the Bodies of our greatest
Princes are deposited, and which lately received the Remains
of a Princess whose Memory must be ever dear to Britain,
be the only Church in the whole Kingdom not properly provided for, we should justly expose ourselves to the Censure of
the rest of Europe, and of every Stranger who visits us. The
Expence therefore which the Desire of this Petition requires,
is an Expence we ought to be at for own Honour, for the
Honour of the Nation, and let me add, for the Honour of
the Royal Family. These, and no other, are the Motives,
Sir, that incline me to give my Vote for our granting the
Petition, and I am persuaded Gentlemen will easily concur,
when they compare the Reasonableness of the Thing to the
Smallness of the Expence.
'As to what was urged by the honourable Gentlemen
who spoke last, in that the Inspection of the Work ought to
be committed to Laymen, I seriously own that I was once of
his Opinion, and I remember one Year that the Experiment
was actually made. But at the same Time I remember, that
when the Accounts were examined, and the Work surveyed, it was found that we neither had managed so frugally,
nor was the Work so well executed, as when it was under
the Inspection of the Clergy. Besides that, Sir, the Commissioners being Men who had a great deal of other Business
to mind, feldom thought it worth their while to meet, and
to concert Meafures for the more effectual carrying on this
Work, which by these Means was neglected, and it must
still suffer if we shall put it under the Inspection of Laymen
intirely. For, Sir, though we should suppose that they had
it at Heart to carry the Work on in the most frugal Manner;
yet every one will trust to another, till the whole is neglected. But, Sir, when we leave the Commission in the
Hands of the Clergy, they think it their Duty, they make
it their Business, they take a Pleasure, I may say, a Pride,
in seeing it carried on to the best Advantage. As to the honourable Gentleman's Fears of its being too great a Burden,
to those Reverend Gentlemen, if they do not esteem it such,
I see no Reason that we should. The Clergy is very seldom
oppressed without complaining; and I dare say we never
should have been troubled with the Petition, if our granting
it must be attended with any Inconvenience to the Petitioners.
We are to consider, Sir, that the Situation of the Clergy who
attend this Church, is different from that of those who
have the Charge of whole Parishes on their Hands; the Petitioners have Time and Leisure enough to spare; and give me
Leave to say, Sir, it is a Part of their Office to take all the
care they can both of the Reparations and the Additions which
are made to that Church by which they live. Therefore,
Sir, I am for referring the Petition to the Committee of Supply, and for making no Alteration in the Commission.'
George Heathcote, Esq; spoke next as follows:
George Heathcote, Esq;
Sir,
'I don't think that in the present State of our publick
Credit, and while the People are already overwhelmed with
Taxes, that we ought to agree to the giving away one Shilling of their Money on any Occasion but where it is absolutely
necessary. The Sum required of us by the Petition, is not
indeed a very large one; but small as it is, we are to consider that it comes out of the People's Pockets, and the Purposes for which it is granted can be of very little, if any Benefit to them. I cannot pretend to account for the Motives
that induced the Parliament to lay out so much of the publick
Money in adorning and repairing a Church; but whatever
these Motives were, I think they ought to have no Influence
with us, because in those Days, Sir, the People could bear
to save a little Money on an Occasion of this Kind, their
Taxes being neither so heavy, nor their Debts so large, as
they are now. The right honourable Gentleman who spoke
last, gave indeed one Reason, which he supposed influenced
the Parliament on this Occasion; and that was, because
many of our Kings lie buried in that Church. This Reason,
Sir, would have come with a better Grace from that right
honourable Gentleman, could he have added at the same
Time, that all the Kings there interred were Friends to the
Liberties of the People.
'Besides, Sir, I don't like these annual Petitions; they
look somewhat like annual Bills. By indulging the Petitioners
from Year to Year, they may at last come to claim it as a
Kind of Right, and never give it over. Let Gentlemen consider,
Sir, how easy it is for them to prepare a Model of new Additions to this Church, under Pretence that they are necessary,
and that we cannot do too much for adorning and repairing
such an august royal Fabrick. The Reasons, Sir, for our
granting the Desire of this Petition would then be just as good
thirty Years hence as they are now; and according to the
right honourable Gentleman's Way of Reasoning who spoke
last, much better; for it seems the more we grant, the less
we ought to refuse. Therefore, Sir, I should have been much
better pleased, and should have thought it a much fairer Way
of Proceeding, had the Petitioners, instead of asking the
annual Bounty of four thousand Pounds, petitioned at once
for as much as, in the Opinion of competent Judges, will be
sufficient to compleat the Work according to the present Model. This, Sir, would have been a fair Way of acting; we
should have then known what we were about, and we could
have granted it in what Proportions and at what Times we
found most convenient: Whereas, what we do now is in the
dark; we know not when the Work will be finished; and
unless it is finished, all that we shall grant now is to no Purpose. For this Reason, Sir, I think it would be extremely
proper, before we proceed any farther in this Affair, that
the Petitioners should lay before the House an Estimate of the
Expences that the Reparations and Additions to the Church
will cost in the whole.'
To this Lord Sundon answered to the following Purpose:
Lord Sundon.
Sir,
'What the honourable Gentleman who spoke last proposed, indeed appears very reasonable; but I do not think it
very practicable. Every Gentleman who has Experience in
Building, knows very well how hard a Matter it is to calculate the Expences he must be at, though perhaps he has a
great Part of the Materials upon his own Land; but it is
much harder to do it in a Work of this Kind, that is subject
to many Accidents, that requires such a Variety of Workmen of all Kinds, and where all the Materials must be purchased from different Hands and at different Prices. However, Sir, I have heard that Subject talked of, and have
made it my Business to enquire how much the Whole may
cost. And Sir, though I never could certainly be informed,
nor have any Authority from the Petitioners to say any thing
on this Head; yet, by the nearest Computation I can make,
it may cost about thirteen thousand Pounds more, which, I
hope, Sir, is a Sum we may spare, without laying any great
Burden on the People.'
Joseph Danvers, Esq; spoke next as follows:
Joseph Danvers
Sir,
'The Business of half my Life has been to pull down and
build up an old House, and had I known how much it
would have cost me when I first began to build and repair it,
it should have gone to Ruin before I had spent a Shilling on
it. So that, Sir, I intirely agree with the noble Lord
who spoke last, in thinking it impracticable to determine
the exact Sum that this Work may require. Had I, Sir,
foreseen that the Repairs of this old House of mine would
have cost me more Money than the building a new one, does
any Gentleman imagine that I would not rather have set about the one than the other? Therefore, Sir, I think it is of
no Consequence to us to have any Estimate laid before us,
because it is impossible we can have a just one; and while
we grant the Petition from Year to Year, the Managers will
be the better Husbands of what Money comes to their Hands,
and the Work will be carried on to more Advantage, in order to encourage us to grant more.'
Mr. Wynn spoke next to the following Effect:
Mr. Wynn.
Sir,
'I am for letting the Petition lie upon the Table, and for
doing nothing in the Affair this Year, were it for no other
Reason but to put the Petitioners in Mind, that we may
grant or refuse this Money just as we please. For, Sir, if
this Bill should pass in course every Session, the Reverend Petitioners may claim that as a Right which is now only an
Indulgence.'
Sir Wiliam Yonge replied to this as follows:
Sir William Yonge.
Sir,
'I believe, Sir, that there is no civilized Nation
in the World, that does not look upon the repairing and
improving those Works which their Ancestors or their
Princes left as Monuments, either of their Piety or their
Grandeur, to be a publick Concern. Former Parliaments,
Sir, in this Nation, seem to have been of Opinion that no
Work more deserved the Regard of the Publick than Westminister-Abbey, which I look upon to be the finest Thing in
this Nation; and it would give Foreigners a very odd Notion
of our Politeness, and of our Gratitude to the Memory of our
Princes, if we should let it stand in its present Condition, especially as so small a Sum is required to finish it. For, Sir,
I dare say the noble Lord was right in his Conjecture, that it
will not require above thirteen or fourteen thousand Pounds
more; and when it is compleated, I will be bold to affirm,
that it will excel any thing of its Kind in Europe. Gentlemen may remember what an Expence the Nation was put
to by our voting fifty new Churches to be built. But, Sir,
in my Opinion, it is as worthy the Dignity of this House
to preserve and adorn this old Church, as it was to build
fifty new ones. Give me leave likewise to say, Sir, that this
Petition would not have met with half the Opposition it has,
had it been offered for the Reparation of any Building but a
Church.
'As to the Fears the honourable Gentleman who spoke
last is under, lest the Petitioners should claim that in Time
as a Right which is now only an Indulgence, I think the
Parliament fully answered that Objection two or three Years
ago; for I remember, Sir, that when this Petition was presented, the Parliament thought fit to reject it. Another
honourable Gentleman seemed to apprehend that further Additions would be made to the Fabrick, and such as might
involve us in unforeseen Expences. We have all, Sir, seen
the Model of the Building that is design'd, and we can
never imagine that the Reverend Overseers of the Work will
make any Additions to that Model, without the Approbation
of this House. And if no Additions are made to the
Model, I see no Reason for our apprehending that we shall
be put to any extraordinary Expence. The Money that
has already been granted for this Effect, has been duly
accounted for by the Petitioners, and I never have yet heard
that any Objections were made to their Accounts; on the
contrary, I have heard it often affirmed, that the Money
that has been granted was managed in the most frugal Manner, and to the best Advantage. When we find that it is not
so, it will be time enough then to put the Management of
the Work into other Hands, or to withdraw our Bounty entirely. These Considerations, Sir, are, I think, more than
sufficient to determine us to come to a Resolution upon the
Motion made by the noble Lord who brought up the Petition;
but there is another Consideration that I hope will always
have its Weight with this House, and that, Sir, is, his Majesty's Recommendation. I think, Sir, it will be treating
his Majesty with Disrespect, if we should have no Regard to
his Recommendation in an Affair that can cost us so very
little, and which, tho' it did not come so strongly recommended, is in itself so highly reasonable.'
The Petition referred to a Committee.
No Reply being made to this, the Question was put, If
the Petition should be referred to the Consideration of the
Committee of the whole House, to whom it is referred to
consider further of the Supply granted to his Majesty? A Division followed, and the Question pass'd in the Affirmative.
On a Division, Yeas 174. Noes 61.
Immediately after this Question was over, before the
House proceeded on any other Business, George Heathcote
Esq; spoke as follows:
Alderman Heathcote moves for an Estimate of the Revenues of the Dean and Chapter of Westminster.
Sir,
'As I think that on all Hands it has been agreed that
it is the Interest of the Reverend Petitioners that Westminster-Abbey should be finish'd and repaired according to
the Draught of the Model laid before this House last Session,
and as very great Encomiums have been made upon their
Integrity as well as good Management, I think it would be
very proper for us to enquire whether or not some Part of
the Revenues annex'd by the Royal Founders to the Abbey,
have not been allotted for the Expences of the Fabrick. This,
in my Opinion, will have a very good Effect. First, it will
give us an Opportunity of doing Justice to the Integrity of
the Reverend Petitioners. Secondly, it will be of great
Use to Gentlemen when this Affair comes to be settled in
the Committee. Besides, Sir, tho' it should appear from
the Enquiry that no such Allotment has been made, I think
Gentlemen ought to make themselves Judges how far it is
reasonable, that some Part of the large Revenues enjoyed
by the Reverend Dean and Chapter, ought to be set apart for
these Purposes. This, Sir, I think is extremely proper, especially as no body makes a Shilling by the Fabrick besides
themselves. I likewise don't doubt, Sir, but that it will
appear in the Course of this Enquiry, that many of the
Clergy have expended large Sums out of their own Revenues
upon the Reparations and the Additions of the Fabrick.
Therefore, Sir, I humbly move, 'That the Dean and Chapter of Westminster prepare an Estimate of the Revenues belonging to the Dean of the Church, distinguishing the several Appropriations.'
Sir Robert Walpole's Answer to this, was as follows:
Sir R. Walpole.
Sir,
'I own this is the most extraordinary Motion I ever heard
in this House. I should be glad to know how the hon. Gentleman would take it, if he should be required to lay before
this House a particular Inventory of his own Estate, that he
may receive Directions from the House in what Manner he
is to apply it: I believe the hon. Gentleman would think it
a very unjustisiable Way of Proceeding; and give me Leave to
say, Sir, that if such a Proceeding is unjustifiable in Cases of
private Property, it is much more so where a Body of Men
upon a Foundation, and a Royal Foundation too, is concerned. Nor can I see, Sir, how we can agree to this Motion without violating all the Rules of common Justice, and
shaking the Foundations of all Property. Besides, Sir,
the honourable Gentleman does not reflect, that we are no
Court of Record, and therefore cannot oblige the Petitioners
to exhibit their Rights to these Possessions before us. So that
it is not really in our Power to come to any Resolution upon
this Motion. And Sir, should we make a Stretch in this
Case, I should be very sorry to fit in this House while we
came to a Resolution, that might give the World Reason to
think, that we design'd to carry our Power farther than our
Justice. There may, indeed, some particular Cases come
before us, in which it is necessary, that one of the Parties
explain or prove his Right of Possession; but this, tho' it
seldom happens, is always done voluntarily by that Party,
that the House may more clearly comprehend this Case. And,
Sir, I believe the hon. Gentleman cannot find one Precedent
where this House obliged a Party to submit to our Judgment,
or the Papers and Securities by which he or they enjoy their
Estates or Income. We have no Reason to doubt, Sir, that
the Clergy have as good a Right by Law to what they enjoy as any of us have to our private Estates: Nor do I think
that either Justice or Reason oblige them to lay out any Part
of their Income upon repairing the Church, or upon these
Alterations or Additions. As for their living by the Church,
all the Clergy throughout the Kingdom live by their
Churches; yet, Sir, that is no Reason that each of them
should be at the Expence of repairing his respective Church.
So that, I hope, Sir, when Gentlemen consider the Consequence of this Motion, they will let it drop. I dare say, no
Gentlemen suspects that I oppose it from any other Motives
than the Principles of common Equity, which are always
agreeable to the Maxims of good Policy. There was, indeed, a Time, when this House, and the Legislature in general, had Reason to be jealous of every Concession in
favour of the Clergy; but, Sir, that Set of Clergy is
almost extinct, and the Principles and Actions which
once gave us very good Grounds for such a Jealousy,
are now almost entirely worn out. And as their Successors behave with that Submission and Regard for the
Government that becomes their Character, I think, Sir, they
deserve the Protection and Indulgence of Parliament. I believe it cannot be pretended by Gentlemen, that fince, I had
the Honour to be concerned in the Administration, the
Clergy have met with any extraordinary Indulgence from the
Government, or that any of the High-Flyers amongst them
have been encouraged. But, Sir, I must own, that a Petition from the Clergy, if they act as Ministers of Peace, and
if the Petition is reasonable in itself, will never be less agreeable to me because it is in favour of the Clergy. I
should not have troubled the House about an Affair which I
think has taken up but to much of our Time already, had I
not perceived an unusual Spirit of Opposition to this Petition
from Gentlemen whom by their former Conduct I never
suspected as Enemies to the Clergy, even in the most exorbitant Claims, and their most exalted Tory Principles.
William Pulteney Esq; spoke next as follows.
William Pulteney ; Motion for an Account of what they receive from Monuments and breaking Ground in the Abbey,
&c.
Sir,
'I am sorry that I am obliged on this Occasion to differ
from the honourable Gentleman who made the Motion; but
glad of having one Opportunity of speaking on the same
Side of the Question with my right honourable Friend who
sits by me. It is certain, Sir, that it would be a very unprecedented thing in us so much as to pretend to make any
Alteration in the Funds appointed for the Maintenance of
the Dean and Chapter. It is likewise certain, Sir, that
we cannot compel them to make any Contribution out of
their private Emoluments towards repairing or finishing the
Church. A great many Reasons, Sir, induce me to be of
Opinion that the Revenues of the Church cannot be better disposed of than they already are; and one among the rest, Sir,
is, that the right venenable Bishop is Ground-landlord to
several very convenient Lodgings there, extremely proper,
as they are so near the Parliament House, for his Brethren to
live in. So that their Country, Sir, is sure, on every Pinch,
and upon the shortest Warning, of their immediate Attendance in the Parliament. But, Sir, tho' I think we have no
Right to oblige them to comply with the Terms of this
Motion, yet there are certain Revenues which arise from the
Pavement and the Walls of the Abbey. These Emoluments,
Sir, I think we have a just Title to enquire after, as the
Money we grant is for the Support of the Fabrick; and, Sir,
I think they ought to be laid before us. I should have been
very well pleased to have complied with the honourable Gentleman's Motion, if the Sum petitioned for were to be applied for the Support of the Clergy. But as that is not the
Case, Sir, I beg Leave humbly to move, that the Dean
and Chapter of the Collegiate Church of St. Peter Westminster do lay before this House an Account of what Money has
been received by them for seven Years last past, for breaking
up Ground in the said Church or Places adjacent, for Burials, and for erecting Monuments there, and how the said
Money has been applied by them towards the Repairs and
finishing of the said Church and Edifices thereunto belonging,
for seven Years last past.
No Opposition being made, the House came to a Resolution upon this Motion; and the said Account was accordingly
agreed to.