Jovis, 18 die Februarii;
9° Gulielmi Tertii.
ORDERED, That Sir Wm. Ashurst, Sir Sam. Barnardiston, Sir Cha. Turner, Mr. Winington, Mr. Foley, Sir
Cha. Keymish, Mr. Harley, Mr. Henly, be added to the
Committee, to whom the Bill for re-vesting the Sinecure of
Llandinam, in the County of Montgomery, in John Spademan, in Trust for Joseph Hill, is committed.
Ordered, That Leave be given to bring in a Bill for
making the River Stour, in the Counties of Suffolk and
Essex, navigable: And that Sir Gervas Elwes and Sir
William Ashurst do prepare, and bring in, the Bill.
Haymarket Paving, &c.
Ordered, That Mr. Bridges, Mr. Bertie, Sir John Parsons, Mr. Arnold, Mr. Yates, Sir Fran. Winington, Mr.
Paget, Mr. Onslow, be added to the Committee, to whom
the Bill for repairing, paving, and regulating, the Haymarket, in the Parishes of St. James and St. Martin's,
Ordered, That all Committees be revived.
Mr. Grey reported from the Committee, to whom the
ingrossed Bill, from the Lords, intituled, An Act for
settling the Estate of Mary Savile, an Infant, upon her
Marriage, was committed, That they had examined and
considered the same; and had directed him to report the
same to the House, without any Amendments: And he
delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table.
The Bill was read the Third time.
Resolved, That the Bill do pass.
Ordered, That Mr. Gery do carry the Bill to the Lords,
and acquaint them, That this House hath agreed to the
same, without any Amendment.
Dee Waste Lands.
Ordered, That Mr. Gell do produce to this House his
Grant of waste Lands upon the River Dee.
Rygate, &c. Roads.
Mr. Conyers reported from the Committee, to whom
the Bill for repairing and amending the Lane called
Horshill, leading from Ryegate to Hookwood Common,
and a Lane called Bonehurst, in the Parish of Horley, in
the County of Surrey, was committed, That they had
made several Amendments to the Bill; which they had
directed him to report to the House; and which he read
in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's
Table: Where the same were once read throughout; and
then a Second time, one by one; and, upon the Question
severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.
A Clause was offered, to be added to the Bill, That the
Justices of the Peace for the Counties of Surrey and Sussex, at their Quarter-Sessions, may appoint Three Persons
of each County, to view the said Lanes; and examine
into the Surveyors Accounts; and certify Abuses to the
Judges of Assize, if they find any:
And the same was twice read; and, upon the Question
put thereupon, agreed unto by the House to be made
Part of the Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill, with the Amendments, be
Mr. Harcourt, according to the Order of the Day,
reported from the Committee, to whom the several Petitions of the Brewers were referred, the Matter, as it appeared to the said Committee, and the Resolution of the
Committee thereupon; which he read in his Place; and
afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the
same was read; and is as followeth; viz.
That, upon the Brewers First Petition, they insisted,
That the Commissioners of Excise had, under colour of
the late Act, intituled, An Act for laying several Duties
upon low Wines, or Spirits, of the First Extraction; and
for preventing the Frauds and Abuses of Brewers, Distillers, and other Persons chargeable with the Duties of
Excise; made an Order contrary to the Intent of that
Act, in these Words following;
"It being enacted, in the late Act for laying certain
Duties upon low Wines, &c. That, in case of a party
Guile, the Brewer shall declare to the Gauger how
much Strong, and how much Small, he intends to make
of such Guile; and shall continue all the said Strong Beer
in his Tuns until all the said Small Beer shall be carried
out, and delivered; and in case such Brewer shall refuse to declare his Length, or shall permit the Strong
Beer to be carried out of his Tuns until the said Small
Beer shall be carried out, and delivered, such Gauger
shall charge and return the Whole of such Guile to be
Strong; and such Brewer shall pay the Duties thereof
"We do therefore direct, That, in all party Guiles of
Beer the Officers do charge the whole Guile to be
Strong; it being incumbent upon the Brewer to prove,
That all such Small was carried out, and delivered,
before any of the Strong Beer was cleansed, or carried
out of his Tuns."
28 May 1696.
And they further insisted, That, by the express Words
of that Act, "In party Guiles," the whole Guile was not
to be charged as Strong, unless the Brewers should refuse
to declare to the Gauger how much of his Brewing he
intended to make into Strong, and how much into Small,
before any Part of his Guile is cleared; or should permit
any Part of the Strong Beer to be carried out of his
Tuns, until the Small Beer should be carried out, and
That they suffered great Hardships by that Order,
although they complied with the Terms prescribed by
That the Brewers, by reason of this Charge, are forced,
after every Brewing of party Guiles of Beer, to attend the
Commissioners of Excise, and bring many Witnesses to
their Office; and have often long Delays, and many Attendances, before they can be cleared; though the
Gaugers, in many such Cases, have nothing to object
against them when they are heard:
That in a party Guile of Sir John Parsons, brewed
19th October 1696, the Gaugers gave a Note in Writing,
under their Hands, of the particular Quantities of Strong
and Small, as they were required by the late Act; and
another Note, That the Small was gone; yet, by reason
of the Order of the Commissioners, returned the Whole
That Sir John Parsons was heard before the Commissioners; who were divided in their Opinions, and so gave
no Judgment; whereby Sir John Parsons has been forced
to pay for his whole Guile as Strong, and 40 Barrels of
the same as Small: So the very same Drink has paid
the Duty both of Strong and Small.
In Answer to these Facts it was insisted on, by the Commissioners of Excise, That, by the Meaning of the Act of
Parliament, the Small was to be carried out, and delivered to the Brewers Customers, before the Strong was
to be carried out of their Tuns:
That, unless the Brewer was put to prove a Delivery
to his Customer, that Provision in the Act, That the
Small should be carried out, and delivered, would be
'Twas agreed, That they did make such an Order:
which was signed and dated as aforesaid.
The Reason which was given for making that Order
was, That the King was very much cheated of his Duty
for want of it: That it was a Practice of some of the
Brewers to carry out their Small Beer, under Pretence of
delivering it to their Customers; but privately bring it
back, and mix it with their Strong.
One Instance of this kind was proved to the Committee, against Mr. Ansty a Brewer, on the 11th of May last;
which was before the making the Order; and some few
other Instances, since the making the Order, were proved,
and urged as an Argument to continue that Order.
Upon Examination of this Matter, several of the
Commissioners of Excise appeared before the
Mr. Onslow declared, He was present at making the
said Order; but thought that Order might be inconvenient, especially to the Country Brewers; and doubted
whether the late Act would warrant it; and therefore
would not sign it.
Mr. Strong was out of Town when that Order was
passed: But declares, on Consideration of the Order, he
does not approve it: That he thinks it a hard Order to
be used, in all Cases, where no Suspicion of Fraud appears; and therefore is for reversing it.
Sir John Foch and Mr. Parry, Two other Commissioners who signed the Order, declared, They had not
fully considered the Order before they signed it: but, on
Consideration of the Act of Parliament, thought it not
justifiable: And, upon hearing the Complaints of the
Brewers, found it to be very inconvenient; and therefore
have often moved the Board to vacate it. And,
Sir Steph. Evance also declared, He was of the same
Mr. Meadows declared, He did not sign the Order,
and has been always doubtful concerning the Legality of
it; and was desirous to have Mr. Attorney General's
Opinion upon it.
The Reason offered why this Order was not revoked
was, That unless Mr. Onslow, Sir John Foch, Sir Stephen
Evance, Mr. Parry, Mr. Strong, were all present at the
same time, the Order could not be reversed:
That, after the Order was made, some Part of the
time, Mr. Onslow was out of Town, upon his Majesty's
Affairs; some other Part of the time, Sir John Foch was
out of Town: That, after they came to Town, Sir Steph.
Evance was very seldom at that Board till the Meeting of
the Parliament; and 'twas then expected the Case would
come before the Parliament.
Mr. Everard was not a Commissioner when the Order
was made; but thinks the Order inconvenient, and impracticable in the Country; but believes it legal.
That 'twas insisted, by Mr. Danvers and Mr. Everard,
Two of the Commissioners, That, after that Order was
made, and the Validity of it contested, it seemed to be
the Sense of the Board, That Mr. Attorney-General's
Opinion should be taken upon that Order; but that it
was neglected: And therefore Mr. Danvers and Mr.
Everard drew a Case; and thereupon they had Mr. Attorney-General's Opinion:
But, it appeared, That on Examination thereof, that
the Case carried to Mr. Attorney-General was drawn up
and carried by Mr. Danvers and Mr. Everard, without
the Knowledge of the Commissioners, who were against
the Order: That the Case never mentioned the Order of
the 28th of May; nor was that Order shown to Mr.
Attorney-General when he gave his Opinion.
That, on Examination of the other Petitions, Two
Clauses were complained of by the Petitioners:
1st, The Clause whereby they were obliged to carry
out, and deliver, all their Small Beer before the Strong
was to be removed out of the Tuns:
That, by reason of that Clause, the Brewers, if their
Customers did not receive all their Small Beer, were
forced to throw it away, lest it should be charged as
Strong; or else must keep the Strong in the Tuns so long
that it might be spoiled; especially in the Country,
where they often carry their Small Beer several Miles to
That the other Clause was relating to Drink returned
to the Brewers, by their Customers.
The Brewers insisted, That the Intent of that Clause,
relating to Returns, was not only to indemnify them
against the Penalty, if 'twas mixed with a new Brewing,
in Presence of the Gauger, but to excuse from paying
the Duty a Second time: That it is against Reason the
Drink should pay a Duty twice, where there is no Fraud
in the Brewer.
'Twas answered, and proved, by the Commissioners,
That, since the Act made 22° Car. IIdi, which gives the
Brewer an Allowance for Waste, by Filling, Leakage,
and all other Losses and Damages, no Allowance has
ever been made for Returns; and ever since has been
And that, upon the whole Matter, the Committee
came to this Resolution; viz.
Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee,
That the Clause, relating to party Guiles, in the late Act,
intituled, An Act for laying several Duties upon low
Wines, or Spirits, of the First Extraction; and for preventing the Frauds and Abuses of Brewers, Distillers,
and other Persons chargeable with the Duties of Excise;
is inconvenient to the Brewers in London, and impracticable in the Country.
The said Resolution, being read a Second time, was,
upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the
Ordered, That a Bill be brought in, pursuant to the
said Resolution: And that Mr. Brewer do prepare, and
bring in, the Bill.
Preventing Exportation of Wool.
A Bill for the more effectual preventing the Exportation of Wool was, according to Order, read a Second
Resolved, That the Bill be committed.
And a Motion being made, and the Question being
put, That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the
The House divided.
The Yeas go forth.
|Tellers for the Yeas,
|Tellers for the Noes,
Sir Isaac Rebow:
So it passed in the Negative.
Resolved, That it be committed to Sir Philip Butler,
Sir Fran. Masham, Mr. Brewer, Sir Wm. Honywood,
Mr. Thornhagh, Mr. Heveningham, Sir Rowland Gwyn,
Mr. Colt, Sir Hen. Hobart, Sir Robert Rich, Mr. Winington, Mr. Norris, Sir Godf. Coply, Mr. Frewen, Mr. Austen,
Sir Wm. Twisden, Mr. Evelyn, Sir Cha. Carteret, Mr.
Onslow, Mr. Hamond, Mr. Walpole, Mr. Arnold, Sir Jo.
Cotton, Sir John Bolles, Mr. Paget, Mr. Yates, Mr. Pelham, Mr. Sanford, Sir Hen. Goodrick, Sir Jos. Tily, Colonel
Granvile, Sir Wm. Cowper, Sir Jo. Phillips, Mr. Campion,
Sir Isaac Rebow, Sir John Fagg, Mr. Monson, Mr. Clark,
Sir Cha. Sidley, Sir Edw. Seaward, Mr. Fox, Mr. Baldwyn,
Mr. Ash, Mr. Perry: And all that come are to have
Voices: And they are to meet this Afternoon at Five a
Clock, in the Speaker's Chamber.
Ordered, That the Account of the Informations from
the Commissioners of the Customs, touching the Exportation of Wool, which lies on the Table, be referred to the
Consideration of the Committee, to whom the said Bill
Message from the King—Civil List.
Mr. Secretary Trumball acquainted the House, That he
had a Message from the King, in Writing, signed by his
Majesty, to deliver to the House:
Which he delivered accordingly.
And the same was read; and is as followeth; viz.
HIS Majesty, finding himself under very great Difficulties, for Want of Money, to supply the Occasions of
the Civil List, has thought it necessary to remind the
House of that Part of his Speech, which relates to that
Head; desiring that speedy Care may be taken to make
effectual Provision for it.
Whereupon, his Majesty's Speech to both Houses, at
the Opening of this Session of Parliament, was read:
And a Motion being made, That a Supply be granted
to his Majesty for the Support of the Civil List, for the
Resolved, That this House will, upon Saturday Morning next, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole
House, to consider of that Motion.
King's Lynn Port.
The House, according to the Order of the Day,
resumed the adjourned Debate, touching the Commitment
of the Bill for the better Preservation of the Navigation of
the Port of King's-Lynn, in the County of Norfolk:
And the Question being put, That the Bill be committed;
The House divided.
The Yeas go forth.
|Tellers for the Yeas,
||Sir Robert Davers,
|Tellers for the Noes,
So it passed in the Negative.
And then the House adjourned till To-morrow
Morning, Nine a Clock.