House of Commons Journal Volume 11: 18 February 1697

Jovis, 18 die Februarii;

9° Gulielmi Tertii.

Prayers.

Hill's Sinecure.

ORDERED, That Sir Wm. Ashurst, Sir Sam. Barnardiston, Sir Cha. Turner, Mr. Winington, Mr. Foley, Sir Cha. Keymish, Mr. Harley, Mr. Henly, be added to the Committee, to whom the Bill for re-vesting the Sinecure of Llandinam, in the County of Montgomery, in John Spademan, in Trust for Joseph Hill, is committed.

Stour Navigation.

Ordered, That Leave be given to bring in a Bill for making the River Stour, in the Counties of Suffolk and Essex, navigable: And that Sir Gervas Elwes and Sir William Ashurst do prepare, and bring in, the Bill.

Haymarket Paving, &c.

Ordered, That Mr. Bridges, Mr. Bertie, Sir John Parsons, Mr. Arnold, Mr. Yates, Sir Fran. Winington, Mr. Paget, Mr. Onslow, be added to the Committee, to whom the Bill for repairing, paving, and regulating, the Haymarket, in the Parishes of St. James and St. Martin's, is committed.

Committees.

Ordered, That all Committees be revived.

Savile's Estate.

Mr. Grey reported from the Committee, to whom the ingrossed Bill, from the Lords, intituled, An Act for settling the Estate of Mary Savile, an Infant, upon her Marriage, was committed, That they had examined and considered the same; and had directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendments: And he delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table.

The Bill was read the Third time.

Resolved, That the Bill do pass.

Ordered, That Mr. Gery do carry the Bill to the Lords, and acquaint them, That this House hath agreed to the same, without any Amendment.

Dee Waste Lands.

Ordered, That Mr. Gell do produce to this House his Grant of waste Lands upon the River Dee.

Rygate, &c. Roads.

Mr. Conyers reported from the Committee, to whom the Bill for repairing and amending the Lane called Horshill, leading from Ryegate to Hookwood Common, and a Lane called Bonehurst, in the Parish of Horley, in the County of Surrey, was committed, That they had made several Amendments to the Bill; which they had directed him to report to the House; and which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were once read throughout; and then a Second time, one by one; and, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

A Clause was offered, to be added to the Bill, That the Justices of the Peace for the Counties of Surrey and Sussex, at their Quarter-Sessions, may appoint Three Persons of each County, to view the said Lanes; and examine into the Surveyors Accounts; and certify Abuses to the Judges of Assize, if they find any:

And the same was twice read; and, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House to be made Part of the Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill, with the Amendments, be ingrossed.

Excise Duties.

Mr. Harcourt, according to the Order of the Day, reported from the Committee, to whom the several Petitions of the Brewers were referred, the Matter, as it appeared to the said Committee, and the Resolution of the Committee thereupon; which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same was read; and is as followeth; viz.

That, upon the Brewers First Petition, they insisted, That the Commissioners of Excise had, under colour of the late Act, intituled, An Act for laying several Duties upon low Wines, or Spirits, of the First Extraction; and for preventing the Frauds and Abuses of Brewers, Distillers, and other Persons chargeable with the Duties of Excise; made an Order contrary to the Intent of that Act, in these Words following;

"It being enacted, in the late Act for laying certain Duties upon low Wines, &c. That, in case of a party Guile, the Brewer shall declare to the Gauger how much Strong, and how much Small, he intends to make of such Guile; and shall continue all the said Strong Beer in his Tuns until all the said Small Beer shall be carried out, and delivered; and in case such Brewer shall refuse to declare his Length, or shall permit the Strong Beer to be carried out of his Tuns until the said Small Beer shall be carried out, and delivered, such Gauger shall charge and return the Whole of such Guile to be Strong; and such Brewer shall pay the Duties thereof accordingly;

"We do therefore direct, That, in all party Guiles of Beer the Officers do charge the whole Guile to be Strong; it being incumbent upon the Brewer to prove, That all such Small was carried out, and delivered, before any of the Strong Beer was cleansed, or carried out of his Tuns."

And they further insisted, That, by the express Words of that Act, "In party Guiles," the whole Guile was not to be charged as Strong, unless the Brewers should refuse to declare to the Gauger how much of his Brewing he intended to make into Strong, and how much into Small, before any Part of his Guile is cleared; or should permit any Part of the Strong Beer to be carried out of his Tuns, until the Small Beer should be carried out, and delivered:

That they suffered great Hardships by that Order, although they complied with the Terms prescribed by the Act:

That the Brewers, by reason of this Charge, are forced, after every Brewing of party Guiles of Beer, to attend the Commissioners of Excise, and bring many Witnesses to their Office; and have often long Delays, and many Attendances, before they can be cleared; though the Gaugers, in many such Cases, have nothing to object against them when they are heard:

That in a party Guile of Sir John Parsons, brewed 19th October 1696, the Gaugers gave a Note in Writing, under their Hands, of the particular Quantities of Strong and Small, as they were required by the late Act; and another Note, That the Small was gone; yet, by reason of the Order of the Commissioners, returned the Whole as Strong:

That Sir John Parsons was heard before the Commissioners; who were divided in their Opinions, and so gave no Judgment; whereby Sir John Parsons has been forced to pay for his whole Guile as Strong, and 40 Barrels of the same as Small: So the very same Drink has paid the Duty both of Strong and Small.

In Answer to these Facts it was insisted on, by the Commissioners of Excise, That, by the Meaning of the Act of Parliament, the Small was to be carried out, and delivered to the Brewers Customers, before the Strong was to be carried out of their Tuns:

That, unless the Brewer was put to prove a Delivery to his Customer, that Provision in the Act, That the Small should be carried out, and delivered, would be ineffectual.

'Twas agreed, That they did make such an Order: which was signed and dated as aforesaid.

The Reason which was given for making that Order was, That the King was very much cheated of his Duty for want of it: That it was a Practice of some of the Brewers to carry out their Small Beer, under Pretence of delivering it to their Customers; but privately bring it back, and mix it with their Strong.

One Instance of this kind was proved to the Committee, against Mr. Ansty a Brewer, on the 11th of May last; which was before the making the Order; and some few other Instances, since the making the Order, were proved, and urged as an Argument to continue that Order.

Upon Examination of this Matter, several of the Commissioners of Excise appeared before the Committee; viz.

Mr. Onslow declared, He was present at making the said Order; but thought that Order might be inconvenient, especially to the Country Brewers; and doubted whether the late Act would warrant it; and therefore would not sign it.

Mr. Strong was out of Town when that Order was passed: But declares, on Consideration of the Order, he does not approve it: That he thinks it a hard Order to be used, in all Cases, where no Suspicion of Fraud appears; and therefore is for reversing it.

Sir John Foch and Mr. Parry, Two other Commissioners who signed the Order, declared, They had not fully considered the Order before they signed it: but, on Consideration of the Act of Parliament, thought it not justifiable: And, upon hearing the Complaints of the Brewers, found it to be very inconvenient; and therefore have often moved the Board to vacate it. And,

Sir Steph. Evance also declared, He was of the same Opinion.

Mr. Meadows declared, He did not sign the Order, and has been always doubtful concerning the Legality of it; and was desirous to have Mr. Attorney General's Opinion upon it.

The Reason offered why this Order was not revoked was, That unless Mr. Onslow, Sir John Foch, Sir Stephen Evance, Mr. Parry, Mr. Strong, were all present at the same time, the Order could not be reversed:

That, after the Order was made, some Part of the time, Mr. Onslow was out of Town, upon his Majesty's Affairs; some other Part of the time, Sir John Foch was out of Town: That, after they came to Town, Sir Steph. Evance was very seldom at that Board till the Meeting of the Parliament; and 'twas then expected the Case would come before the Parliament.

Mr. Everard was not a Commissioner when the Order was made; but thinks the Order inconvenient, and impracticable in the Country; but believes it legal.

That 'twas insisted, by Mr. Danvers and Mr. Everard, Two of the Commissioners, That, after that Order was made, and the Validity of it contested, it seemed to be the Sense of the Board, That Mr. Attorney-General's Opinion should be taken upon that Order; but that it was neglected: And therefore Mr. Danvers and Mr. Everard drew a Case; and thereupon they had Mr. Attorney-General's Opinion:

But, it appeared, That on Examination thereof, that the Case carried to Mr. Attorney-General was drawn up and carried by Mr. Danvers and Mr. Everard, without the Knowledge of the Commissioners, who were against the Order: That the Case never mentioned the Order of the 28th of May; nor was that Order shown to Mr. Attorney-General when he gave his Opinion.

That, on Examination of the other Petitions, Two Clauses were complained of by the Petitioners:

1st, The Clause whereby they were obliged to carry out, and deliver, all their Small Beer before the Strong was to be removed out of the Tuns:

That, by reason of that Clause, the Brewers, if their Customers did not receive all their Small Beer, were forced to throw it away, lest it should be charged as Strong; or else must keep the Strong in the Tuns so long that it might be spoiled; especially in the Country, where they often carry their Small Beer several Miles to their Customers.

That the other Clause was relating to Drink returned to the Brewers, by their Customers.

The Brewers insisted, That the Intent of that Clause, relating to Returns, was not only to indemnify them against the Penalty, if 'twas mixed with a new Brewing, in Presence of the Gauger, but to excuse from paying the Duty a Second time: That it is against Reason the Drink should pay a Duty twice, where there is no Fraud in the Brewer.

'Twas answered, and proved, by the Commissioners, That, since the Act made 22° Car. IIdi, which gives the Brewer an Allowance for Waste, by Filling, Leakage, and all other Losses and Damages, no Allowance has ever been made for Returns; and ever since has been practised so.

And that, upon the whole Matter, the Committee came to this Resolution; viz.

Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That the Clause, relating to party Guiles, in the late Act, intituled, An Act for laying several Duties upon low Wines, or Spirits, of the First Extraction; and for preventing the Frauds and Abuses of Brewers, Distillers, and other Persons chargeable with the Duties of Excise; is inconvenient to the Brewers in London, and impracticable in the Country.

The said Resolution, being read a Second time, was, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

Ordered, That a Bill be brought in, pursuant to the said Resolution: And that Mr. Brewer do prepare, and bring in, the Bill.

Preventing Exportation of Wool.

A Bill for the more effectual preventing the Exportation of Wool was, according to Order, read a Second time.

Resolved, That the Bill be committed.

And a Motion being made, and the Question being put, That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House;

The House divided.

The Yeas go forth.

So it passed in the Negative.

Resolved, That it be committed to Sir Philip Butler, Sir Fran. Masham, Mr. Brewer, Sir Wm. Honywood, Mr. Thornhagh, Mr. Heveningham, Sir Rowland Gwyn, Mr. Colt, Sir Hen. Hobart, Sir Robert Rich, Mr. Winington, Mr. Norris, Sir Godf. Coply, Mr. Frewen, Mr. Austen, Sir Wm. Twisden, Mr. Evelyn, Sir Cha. Carteret, Mr. Onslow, Mr. Hamond, Mr. Walpole, Mr. Arnold, Sir Jo. Cotton, Sir John Bolles, Mr. Paget, Mr. Yates, Mr. Pelham, Mr. Sanford, Sir Hen. Goodrick, Sir Jos. Tily, Colonel Granvile, Sir Wm. Cowper, Sir Jo. Phillips, Mr. Campion, Sir Isaac Rebow, Sir John Fagg, Mr. Monson, Mr. Clark, Sir Cha. Sidley, Sir Edw. Seaward, Mr. Fox, Mr. Baldwyn, Mr. Ash, Mr. Perry: And all that come are to have Voices: And they are to meet this Afternoon at Five a Clock, in the Speaker's Chamber.

Ordered, That the Account of the Informations from the Commissioners of the Customs, touching the Exportation of Wool, which lies on the Table, be referred to the Consideration of the Committee, to whom the said Bill is committed.

Message from the King—Civil List.

Mr. Secretary Trumball acquainted the House, That he had a Message from the King, in Writing, signed by his Majesty, to deliver to the House:

Which he delivered accordingly.

And the same was read; and is as followeth; viz.

William R

HIS Majesty, finding himself under very great Difficulties, for Want of Money, to supply the Occasions of the Civil List, has thought it necessary to remind the House of that Part of his Speech, which relates to that Head; desiring that speedy Care may be taken to make effectual Provision for it.

Whereupon, his Majesty's Speech to both Houses, at the Opening of this Session of Parliament, was read:

And a Motion being made, That a Supply be granted to his Majesty for the Support of the Civil List, for the Year 1697;

Resolved, That this House will, upon Saturday Morning next, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of that Motion.

King's Lynn Port.

The House, according to the Order of the Day, resumed the adjourned Debate, touching the Commitment of the Bill for the better Preservation of the Navigation of the Port of King's-Lynn, in the County of Norfolk:

And the Question being put, That the Bill be committed;

The House divided.

The Yeas go forth.

So it passed in the Negative.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Nine a Clock.