House of Commons Journal Volume 11
30 March 1697

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1803

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'House of Commons Journal Volume 11: 30 March 1697', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 11: 1693-1697 (1803), pp. 761-763. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=39435 Date accessed: 29 July 2014.


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Martis, 30 die Martii;

9° Gulielmi Tertii.

Prayers.

Moyle's Estate.

AN ingrossed Bill, from the Lords, intituled, An Act for vesting part of the Estate of Richard Moyle, Gentleman, in Trustees, to be sold, for Payment of Debts, was read the First time.

Resolved, That the Bill be read a Second time.

Irish Arrears.

The Report from the Commissioners for taking and stating the Publick Accounts, upon the Petition of several Troopers belonging to the Regiment of Horse, lately commanded by Colonel Byerly, and, at present by Colonel Windham, formerly presented to the House, was read; and is as followeth;

THAT Mr. John Curtis, Agent to the said Regiment whilst in Ireland, did, in the Month of April last, transmit to the Commissioners a Book, containing the stated Account of each Troop, and Officer, belonging to the said Regiment, from the 1st of September 1689, to which time the said Regiment was cleared, unto the 31th of March 1692.

Which Account, so far as it concerns the Petitioners, has been abstracted, containing an Account of all Money paid, and otherwise charged upon each Troop, within the Time above mentioned, for Provisions, Ordnance, Stores, Horses, Carriage, Hospitals, Cloaths, Accoutrements, Poundage, Agency, and Contingencies, &c.; as also an exact Computation of the Pay due to each Troop, exclusive of the Commission-Officers, and their Servants, for the whole time.

That, according as the Agent has stated the Accounts of each Troop, it appears, That Five of the Six Troops have been over-paid from 215l. to 433l. a Troop; and to the other Troop there is but 108l. 17s. 4d. due for Balance: And, if these Accounts be to determine the particular Accounts of each Trooper, and subaltern Officer, then the Petitioners have little or no Ground for their Complaint:

But the Commissioners are of Opinion, That these general Accounts, however material they may be to adjust Matters betwixt the Colonel, his Agent, and the respective Captains of each Troop; yet they cannot justly determine the particular Accounts depending betwixt the Captains and their respective Troopers; which will further appear by comparing the following Account of a Trooper's Pay, for the Time above mentioned, according to the Agent's State, with a subsequent Account, stated according to the Allowance of the Establishments, and the usual Practice throughout the Army at this present time:

Irish Arrears.

The full Pay of a Trooper, according to Establishment, is 2s. 6d. a Day; and, for this Time, being 943 Days, comes to £. s. d.
117 17 6
Which, by the Agent's Account, is thus discharged; £. s. d.
By 513 Days Subsistence, at 2s. per diem 51 6
By a proportionable Part of 5,638l. 19s. 5 5/3;d. charged to the whole Regiment, for Provisions, Horses, Ordnance, Stores, Carriage, Hospitals, &c. being 939l. 15s. 9d. to each Troop; and, divided by 46, the Number in each Troop; as the Agent's Accounts are stated, being exclusive of the Officers Servants, will charge each Trooper, &c. 20 8 7
Trumpeters 2 By the like Proportion upon 12,815l. 2s. 9d. charged upon the Regiment, for Cloaths, Accoutrements, Poundage, Agency, and Contingencies; which, to each Troop, amounts to 2,135l. 17s. 1½d.; and, divided by 46; the Share of each Man is 46 8 7
Corporals 3
Troopers 41
46
118 3 2
By which way of stating the Accounts, without the Charge of Debts due for Quarters in Ireland, and to the Agent, and the Article of Respits, which, to the whole Regiment, amounts to 2,775l. 12s. 7d.; and, by an equal Dividend, would be to each Trooper 10l. 1s. 1d.; each Trooper would be over-paid 5 8
But, in pursuance of the Establishment, and as the Right of the Troopers Case appears to the Commissioners, the Captains of each Troop ought to state the Account of each Trooper that served the whole Time, and proportionably for such as served but a Part of the Time; and so for the Corporals and Trumpeters; in the Method following;
A Trooper's full Pay for this Time is, as above 117 17 6
Towards satisfying which, must be charged as followeth;
Note, When these Articles exceed the 6d. the Overplus must be paid out of the growing Off-Reckonings; and not taken out of the Trooper's Subsistence. 1. For 6d. a Day to answer the Charge of Cloathing, Accoutrements, Poundage, Agency, and Contingencies; which is all a Trooper can be charged with on these Accounts and amounts unto 23l. 11s. 6d.; whereas by the Agent's Charge, it comes to 46l. 8s. 7d. each 23 11 6
2. For so much Subsistence as has been actually paid to each Trooper; which, by the Paymaster's Books, and by the Agent's Charge, appears to be 513 Days; and, at 2s. per diem, is 51l. 6s.; although the Troopers allege, That their respective Captains have kept back Part of that Money from them 51 6
Trumpeters 2 3. For their Proportion of what is charged for Provisions, Ordnance, Stores, Carriage, Hospitals, and Recruit-Horses; which being charged upon the Regiment by the Paymasters, pursuant to his Majesty's Warrant, each Man ought to bear his Proportion thereof, being to each Troop, as above, 939l. 15s. 9d.; but then the Officers Servants, who received their Shares ought to bear a Part; and then the Number in each Troop will be 54; and each Man's Share will be 17l. 8s.: And, although the Article of Horses seems hard to such Troopers who had no fresh Horses, yet it would be much heavier upon such as lost One or more Horses in the Engagements 17 8
Corporals 3
Troopers 41
Servants 8
54
92 5 6
4. And then there will remain due to each Trooper 25l. 12s.; out of which he must allow for what shall appear justly charged in his Name, for Quarters in Ireland, or to the Agent, and for such Time as he is respited on the Muster-Rolls: For, should these Articles be equally divided, a Man that was a good Husband, and constantly attended the Service, must bear a Part with such who have been extravagant in their Quarters, and neglected their Duty 25 12
£. 117 17 6

On the other hand it is observable.

1. That the Petition sets forth, as if his Majesty had paid all the Arrears due to this Regiment for the Time above; whereas it appears to the Commissioners, that there is yet due 1,301l. 6s. 6d.; which, when paid, would go a great way towards clearing the Arrears due to the Petitioners; and, as is alleged by Colonel Byerly, will be applied accordingly, although, by the Agent's Accounts, it appears, in Page 168, there is 2,608l. 15s. 43/8d. due to several Officers; who, probably, will obtain the Preference in respect to the Money due to the Regiment from his Majesty.

2. That in most of the Accounts of the Regiments that served in Ireland, the Cloaths, Accoutrements, &c. do far exceed the Off-Reckonings, which ought to discharge the same; and is the chiefest Occasion of Complaint to the Petitioners, as well as many others, that have petitioned the Parliament, &c.:

3. That the Subsistence due to the Army whilst in Ireland, not being regularly paid in Money, as usual, the Soldiers did, on Account thereof, receive, from time to time, from his Majesty's Commissaries, Bread, and other Provisions; as also they contracted Debts in Quarters; for which, as also for Ordnance, Stores, Recruit-Horses, &c. in their own Way of accounting, they did never expect to allow; which puts them upon greater Demands for Arrears, than, upon Examination, appears in reality due to them; which Mistakes, when discovered to them, have greatly increased their Complaints.

That, in respect to Colonel Robert Byerly, mentioned in the Petition, it appears, That his Commission, as Colonel of this Regiment, commenced the 1st Day of January 1689; and that he laid it down, and left the Regiment, on the 31th of January 169½.

£. s. d.
That, within the Time above mentioned, he received from the Paymasters of the Irish Forces, on Account of Cloathing, Accoutrements, and Recruit-Horses, for the said Regiment, at several times, the Sum of 7,713 6 3
That, by an Account by him produced and signed, it appears, That he had disbursed, on those Accounts, &c. the Sum of 8,047 3
That the Money he received for those Services being deducted, as above 7,713 6 3
It appears, that Colonel Byerly has paid on Account of the Regiment in general more than he received, by 333 17
That, by a particular Account produced by Colonel Byerly, for his own personal Pay, until the Day he quitted the Regiment, it appears, That there remains due to him the Sum of 134 1
So that, by Colonel Byerly's own Accounts, there yet remains due to him 467 17

But the Commissioners, for the more Exactness in this their Report, summoned Colonel Windham also, who succeeded Colonel Byerly, and is the present Colonel of this Regiment; who, upon Examination, made several Objections to the above-mentioned Accounts of Colonel Byerly: And, upon a full Hearing of the said Objections, it appears to the Commissioners, that Colonel Byerly, by reason of several Mistakes, must be accountable to the Regiment for the following Sums;

£. s. d.
For Poundage of his own personal Pay, more than he has yet allowed 53 19
For Respits upon his Pay, as appears by the Muster-Rolls, &c. 309 11
On Account of recruiting his own Troop, Anno 169½, he allows back 118 6 8
                                                                                                                                                                     £. 481 16 8
So that the Balance due to him, as above, being 467 17
And Colonel Byerly insisting he has paid, On Account of the Regiment, over and above all that is included in the above-mentioned Account, as by Vouchers since produced 53 12 6
Makes in all 521 9
So that he is still in Disburse                                                                                                                          £. 39 13 ½

There is another objection, made by Colonel Windham, relating to 2,000l. charged by Colonel Byerly, to be paid for Cloaths delivered in the Lord Hewett's time; which, Colonel Byerly alleged, was paid the Clothiers out of the Pay-Office, by express Order of the Treasury; and that he never touched One Farthing of that Money; However, there is a Difference of 127l. 19s. 3d. on this Account; which Colonel Byerly must make good to the Regiment, in case he cannot prove the Payment thereof.

And, these Matters being as is above expressed with relation to Colonel Byerly, it seems reasonable, that Colonel Windham, who succeeded him as Colonel, and has since received upwards of 11,000l. from the Paymasters, on Account of the Irish Arrear, from the 1st of September 1689, to the 31th of March 1692, should be accountable for the same to the Regiment: And he hath promised to deliver in his Accounts of what he hath received in a few Days.

Ordered, That the said Report be referred to the Paymasters of the Army for Ireland, as a Direction to them in making up the future Accounts of that Regiment.

Leave of Absence.

Ordered, That Sir Wm. Drake have Leave to go into the Country, upon extraordinary Occasions.

Ordered, That Sir Thomas Estcourt have Leave to go into the Country, for Recovery of his Health.

Thompson's Estate.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Miles Cooke and Sir John Franklyn:

Mr. Speaker,

The Lords have passed a Bill, intituled, An Act for the speedy Payment of the Debts of Sir Wm. Thompson Knight, Serjeant at Law, deceased: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.

And then the Messengers withdrew.

Creditors on Wine Duties.

A Petition of sundry Persons, in behalf of themselves, and others, who have Monies on the Duties of Wine, Vinegar, and Tobacco, was presented to the House:

And a Motion being made, and the Question put, That the said Petition be read;

It passed in the Negative.

Abuses in the Mint.

Ordered, That the Report from the Committee appointed to examine what Dyes have been got out of the Tower, and by what Means; and to inquire into the Miscarriages of the Officers of the Mint; be made upon Thursdáy Morning next.

Supply Bill; Wine Duties.

A Bill for granting to his Majesty certain Duties upon Wines, for carrying on the War against France, was, according to Order, read a Second time.

And a Motion being made, and the Question being put, That the Bill be committed;

The House divided.

The Yeas go forth.

Tellers for the Yeas, Sir Hen. Colt,
Mr. Cox:
148.
Tellers for the Noes, Sir Tho. Davall,
Sir Wm. Ashurst:
94.

So it was resolved in the Affirmative.

Resolved, That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

Resolved, That this House will, upon Thursday Morning next, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the said Bill.

Resolved, That the said Committee be impowered to consider of Ways and Means for raising an Equivalent for the said Duty, if they think fit.

Supply Bill; Duty on Leather.

The House, according to the Order of the Day, resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider further of the Bill for laying a Duty upon Leather, for the Term of Three Years, for answering the Deficiencies, as well of the late Duties upon Coals and Culm, as for paying the Annuities on the Lotteries, and for Lives charged on the Tonage of Ships, and the Duties upon Salt; and other Matters to them referred.

Mr. Speaker left the Chair.
Sir Tho. Littleton took the Chair of the Committee.
Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair.

Sir Thomas Littleton reported from the said Committee, That they had gone through the Bill; and made several Amendments; which they had directed him to report, when the House would please to receive the same.

Ordered, That the said Report be made To-morrow Morning.

Duties on Tin.

Sir Tho. Littleton also reported from the said Committee, That they had considered the Matter to them referred, relating to the Duty upon Tin, and had come to a Resolution; which they had directed him to report, when the House will please to receive the same.

Ordered, That the said Report be made To-morrow Morning.

Duties on Glass.

Sir Tho. Littleton also reported from the said Committee, That they had not as yet considered the Petition of the Glass and Earthen Ware, and Tobacco-pipe, Makers, nor the Report relating to the Glass-makers, to them referred; but had directed him to move, That they may have Leave to sit again, in order thereunto.

Resolved, That this House will, upon Tuesday Morning next, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the said Petition and Report.

Supply Bill; Malt Duties.

Resolved, That this House will, To-morrow Morning, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider further of the Bill for granting to his . . . . . . certain Duties upon Malt and Mum, Sweets, Cyder, and Perry, as well towards carrying on the War against France, as for the necessary Expence of his Majesty's Houshold, and other Occasions.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Nine a Clock.