House of Commons Journal Volume 12: 22 June 1698

Mercurii, 22 die Junii;

Decimo Gulielmi 3tii.

Prayers.

Payment of Malt-Tickets.

ORDERED, That Mr. Heveningham, Sir Fran. Massam, Colonel Kirkby, Mr. Staynes, Colonel King, Mr. Apreece, Sir Marm. Wyvell, Mr. Mounstevens, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Baldwyn, be added to the Committee appointed to inquire into the Reasons, why the Malt-Tickets are no better paid.

Ship Gloucester.

Mr. Culliford reported from the Committee, to whom the Bill, That the Ship Panther, and St. Andrew, now called the Gloucester Frigat, taken as Prizes, may have a Freedom of trading as English Ships, was committed, That they had examined and considered the same, and made some Amendments to the Bill; which they had directed him to report to the House; which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were once read throughout; and then a Second time, one by one; and, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

Ordered, That the Bill, with the Amendments, be ingrossed.

Privilege— Complaint against a Member.

A Petition of Thomas Tew, of Rotherhith, in the County of Surrey, Ironmonger, and Anne his Wife, was presented to the House:

And the same relating to Sir William Williams, a Member of this House; who not being in the House;

Ordered, That the said Petition do lie upon the Table until Saturday Morning next: And that Sir Wm. Williams do then attend in his Place; and the Petition be then read.

Duty on Glass.

A Petition of the Masters and Owners of several Glasshouses in and about London was presented to the House, and read; setting forth, That they are informed the Duty upon Glass is likely to be taken off, which will be prejudicial to them, they having already paid, or secured, the Duty payable, for their Stock in Hand: And praying, if the said Duty be taken off, they may be repaid, or allowed, for what Glass they have by them unsold.

Resolved, That the Petition be rejected.

Reneu's, &c. Nat.

The House proceeded to take into Consideration the Amendments, made by the Lords, to the Bill, intituled, An Act for naturalizing Hillary Reneu, and others:

And the same being twice read, were, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House; anda re as follow;

1 Pr. L. 1. Leave out all the Bill to "Hillary," in the last Line of the First Pr. and read "humbly beseech your most Excellent Majesty, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled."

2 Pr. L. 8, leave out . . . "France," to "Peter," in the 13th L.

L. 24. after "Paris," leave out "out of your Majesty's Allegiance," and insert "being all Persons born out of your Majesty's Allegiance; but professing the true Protestant Religion; and having given good Testimony of their humble, dutiful, and loyal, Affections to your Majesty, and the Good of the Kingdom of England; That it may be Enacted, and be it Enacted, by the King's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and the Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the Authority of the same, That the said Hillary Reneu, Margaret Reneu, Peter Reneu, Mary Lasseur, Peter Lauze, Peter Lauze, John Arnaud, James Dargent, John Nissole, and Isaac Jervaise,"

L. 39, leave out "Hillary Lasseur, Mary Dutry."

3 Pr. 26 and 27 L. leave out "Hillary Lasseur, Mary Dutry."

L. 41, leave out from "notwithstanding," to the End of the Bill.

Ordered, That Sir Rowland Gwynn do carry the Bill to the Lords, and acquaint them, That this House hath agreed to the said Amendments.

Privilege— unconstitutional Publication.

The House, according to Order, proceeded to take into Consideration the Report from the Committee appointed to examine into the printed Pamphlet, intituled, "The Case of Ireland's being bound by Acts of Parliament in England stated:"

And the Report was read; and is as followeth; viz.

That the Committee, having examined into the printed Pamphlet, intituled, "The Case of Ireland's being bound by Acts of Parliament in England stated," do find several Passages in the said Pamphlet, which tend to the disowning and denying the Authority of the Parliament of England over Ireland; which said Passages, the Committee are directed to report to this House; and are as followeth; viz.

Page 4. "The Subject of our present Disquisition shall be, How far the Parliament of England may think it reasonable to intermeddle with the Affairs of Ireland; and bind us up by Laws made in their House:"

"And seeing the Right, which England may pretend to, for binding us by their Acts of Parliament, can be founded only on the imaginary Title of Conquest, or Purchase, or on Precedents, and Matters of Record; we shall inquire into the following Particulars."

12. "Conquest is an Acquisition of a Kingdom by force of Arms, to which Force likewise has been opposed."

13. "But still, their easy and voluntary Submissions exempts them from the Consequents of an hostile Conquest."

14. "I believe the People of England would take it very ill to be thought a conquered Nation, in the Sense that some impose it on Ireland; and yet, we find the same Reason in one Case, as in the other, if the Argument from the King's Stile of Conquestor prevail; nay, England may be said much more properly to be conquered by William the First, than Ireland by Henry the Second."

20. "If I, or any body else, claim the like Freedoms with the natural-born Subjects of England, as being descended from them, it will be impossible to prove the contrary."

38. "From all which it is manifest, That there were no Laws imposed on the People of Ireland, by any Authority of the Parliament of England; nor any Laws introduced into that Kingdom by Henry the Second, but by the Consent and Allowance of the People of Ireland."

54. "By what foregoes. I presume it plainly appears, That, by Three several Establishments, under the first Three Kings of Ireland of the Norman Race, the Laws and Liberties of the People of England were granted to the People of Ireland; and that neither of these Three Kings established those Laws in Ireland; by any Power of the Parliament of England; but by the free Consent, Allowance, and Acceptance, of the People of Ireland."

55. "And from the Days of these Three Kings; viz. Henry the Second, King John, and Henry 3d; have England and Ireland been both governed by the like Forms of Government, under one and the same Supreme Head, the Kings of England; yet so as both Kingdoms remained separate and distinct, in their several Jurisdictions, under that One Head; as are the Kingdoms of England and Scotland at this Day; without any Subordination of the one to the other."

67, 68. "In Conclusion of all, if this Superiority of the Parliament of England have been doubted a great while ago, so it has (fn. 1) [been] a great while ago strenuously opposed, and absolutely denied, by the Parliaments of Ireland: And, by the way, I shall take Notice, that from whencesoever this ancient Pretence, of Ireland's Subordination, proceeded in those Days, it did not arise from the Parliament of England itself; for we have not one single Instance of an English Act of Parliament expresly claiming this Right of binding us; but we have several Instances, of Irish Acts of Parliament expresly denying this Subordination, as appears by what foregoes."

77. "And thus, I presume, we have pretty clearly made out 4th Inquiry fore-mentioned; and shewn plainly the several Steps by which the English Form of Government, and the English Statute-Laws, were received in this Kingdom; and that this was wholly by the People's Consent in Parliament; to which we have had a very ancient Right, and as full a Right as our next Neighbours can pretend to, or challenge."

Privilege— unconstitutional Publication.

84. "And, truly, I see no more Reason for binding Ireland by the English Laws, under the general Words of all his Majesty's Dominions, or Subjects, than there is for binding Scotland by the same; for Scotland is as much his Dominion, and Scotsmen as much his Subjects, as Ireland, and Irishmen: If it be said, That Scotland is an ancient, separate, and distinct Kingdom from England; I say, So is Ireland: The Difference is Scotland continued separate from the Kings of England, till of late Years; and Ireland continued separate from England, but a very little while, in the Person of King John, before the Death of his Father, and of his Brother Richard the First, without Issue."

93. "For, within the Land of Ireland, they are all positive, That the Authority of the Parliament of England will not affect us: The Question is, Whether England and Ireland be Two distinct Kingdoms? and, Whether they have each their respective Parliaments? Neither of which will be denied by any Man; and, if so, there can be no Subordination on either Side; each is complete in its own Jurisdiction, and ought not to interfere with the other in any thing."

"If it be concluded, That the Parliament of England may bind Ireland; It must also be allowed, That the People of Ireland ought to have their Representatives in the Parliament in England."

99, 100. "In the 17th Year of King Charles the First, which was in the Year 1642, there were Three or Four Acts of Parliament made in England, for encouraging Adventurers, to raise Money for the speedy Suppression of the horrid Rebellion, which broke out in Ireland the 23d of October 1641: The Titles of these Acts we have in Poulton's Collection of Statutes; but with this Remark, That they are made of no Force by the Acts of Settlement and Explanation, passed in King Charles the Second's Time, in the Kingdom of Ireland: So that, in these, we are so far from finding Precedents for England's Parliament binding Ireland that they plainly shew, That the Parliament of Ireland may repeal an Act passed in England, in relation to the Affairs of Ireland; for 'tis very well known, that Persons who were to have Interests and Titles in Ireland, by virtue of those Acts passed in England, are cut off by the Acts of Settlement and Explanation: And, indeed, there is all the Reason in the World that it should be so; and that Acts made in a Kingdom, by the legal Representatives of the People, should take place of those made in another Kingdom."

104. "This I am sure of, That, before these Acts in King Charles the Second's Time, the eldest of which is not over Thirty-seven Years, there is not One positive full Precedent to be met with, in all the StatuteBook, of an English Act binding the Kingdom of Ireland; and, on this Account, we may venture to assert, That these are, at least, Innovations on us, as not being warranted by any former Precedents."

105. "And shall Proceedings, only of Thirty-seven Years standing, be urged against a Nation, to deprive them of the Rights and Liberties which they enjoyed for 500 Years before; and which were invaded without and against their Consent, and, from that Day to this, have been constantly complained of?—Let any English Heart, that stands so justly in Vindication of his own Rights and Liberties, answer this Question, and I have done."

111. "I readily grant, That this, and the other forementioned Acts in England, since the Revolution, when they were made, were looked upon highly in our Favour, and for our Benefit; and to them, as such, we have conformed ourselves; But then, in all Justice and Equity, our Submission herein is to be deemed purely voluntary; and not at all proceeding from the Right we conclude thereby in the Legislators."

112, 113. "If submitting to an Inconvenience be a less Evil than endeavouring to throw it off, Men will submit; but if the Inconvenience grow upon them, and be greater than the Hazard of getting rid of it, Men will offer at putting it by, let the Statesman or Divine say what they can."

128. "That Ireland, though annexed to the Crown of England, has always been looked upon to be a Kingdom complete within itself, and to all Jurisdiction to an absolute Kingdom belonging, and subordinate to no legislative Authority on Earth."

Privilege— unconstitutional Publication.

150. "First, therefore, I say, That Ireland should be bound by Acts of Parliament made in England, is against Reason, and the common Rights of all Mankind."

154. "Secondly, 'Tis against the common Laws of England; which are in force both in England and Ireland, by the original Compact before hinted."

157. "Thirdly, It is against the Statute Laws, both of England and Ireland."

161. "Fourthly, It is against several Charters of Liberties granted unto the Kingdom of Ireland."

163. "Fifthly, It is inconsistent with the Royalties and Pre-eminence of a separate and distinct Kingdom."

165. "'Tis absurd to fansy, that Kingdoms are separate and distinct, merely from the geographical Distinction of Territories: Kingdoms become distinct, by distinct Jurisdictions and Authorities legislative and executive: And as, Rex est, qui Regem non habit; so, Regnum est, quod alio non subjicitur Regno: A Kingdom can have no Supreme; 'tis, in itself, supreme within itself, and must have all Jurisdictions, Authorities, and Pre-eminences, to the Royal State of a Kingdom belonging; or else 'tis none: And that Ireland has all these, is declared in the Irish Statute, 33 H. VIII. C. 1. —The chief of these, most certainly, is the Power of making and abrogating its own Laws, and being bound only by such, to which the Community have given their Consent."

166. "Sixthly, It is against the King's Prerogative, That the Parliament of England should have any coordinate Power with him to introduce new Laws, or repeal old Laws, established in Ireland.

168. "Seventhly, It is against the Practice of all former Ages."

170. "Eighthly, 'Tis against several Resolutions of the learned Judges of former Times, in the very Point."

170. "Ninthly, The Obligation of all Laws having the same Foundation; if one Law may be imposed without Consent, any other Law whatever may be imposed on us without our Consent."

170. "Lastly, The People of Ireland are left, by this Doctrine, in the greatest Confusion and Uncertainty imaginable."

171, 172. "To conclude all; I think it highly inconvenient for England to assume this Authority over the Kingdom of Ireland: I believe there will need no great Arguments to convince the wise Assembly of English Senators, how inconvenient it may be to England, to do that, which may make the Lords and People of Ireland think that they are not [well used; and may drive them into Discontent. The Laws and Liberties of England were granted, above 500 Years ago, to the People of Ireland, upon their Submission to the Crown of England, with a Design to make them easy to England, and to keep them in the Allegiance of the King of England: How consistent it may be with true Policy, to do that which the People of Ireland may think is an Invasion of their Rights and Liberties, I do most humbly submit to the Parliament of England to consider."

The Committee have also inquired what Proceedings have been in Ireland, that might occasion the said Pamphlet; and do find, by Perusal of the printed Votes of the House of Commons in Ireland, during the late Session there, signed by their Speaker, That, in their Proceedings they have taken and practised most of the same Ways and Methods, in preparing and framing Bills to be transmitted over, in order to be passed into Laws there, as are used and practised for making Laws in the Parliament here: Some of which Proceedings are as followeth; viz.

27th July 1697. "Ordered, That the Committee for Laws examine and report to this House, at their next Meeting, what Bills have been prepared by this House, and sent to the late Lord Deputy, in order to be transmitted into England."

16th August 1697. "Mr. Weaver senior reported from the Committee for Laws, That they had prepared Heads of a Bill to prevent Charge and Expence in Election of Members to serve in Parliament; and for regulating Elections; and to prevent irregular Proceedings of Sheriffs, and other Officers, in electing and returning such Members: Which was received, and read."

"Ordered, That the said Bill be read again on Wednesday Morning next.

"Then the House, according to Order, took into further Consideration the Heads of a Bill for the better Security of his Majesty's Royal Person and Government; and went through the same, with some Amendments."

"Ordered, That the said Bill be read again on Wednesday Morning next."

18 August 1697. "Sir Francis Brewster presented to the House Heads of a Bill for the more easy and speedy Securing and Recovery of small Debts: Which was received."

"Ordered, That the said Bill be read on Friday Morning next."

16 September 1697. "A Motion being made, That the Committee appointed to bring in Heads of a Bill for Encouragement of the Linen and Hempen Manufacture in this Kingdom be enlarged; the same was enlarged accordingly."

"Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the said Committee, to consider of the Papers now read, relating to the said Linen Manufacture: And that they have Power to name a President for each Country, out of the Persons returned for Directors."

"Ordered, That Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer do prepare, and bring in, a Clause, to be inserted in the said Bill, for the better Encouragement of the said Linen Manufacture, pursuant to a Paper now laid before the House."

17th September 1697. "A Petition of the Master, Wardens, and Corporation, of Butchers, in Dublin; praying, that Heads of a Bill may be prepared, That no Cattle may be sold in Smithfield Market, before Six a Clock in the Morning, from the Tenth of March to the Tenth of September; nor before Eight a Clock, from the Tenth of September to the Tenth of March; and that none be sold but in open Market, nor carried thence before Ten a Clock in the Forenoon; was presented to the House, and read."

"Upon Consideration whereof:"

"Ordered, That the Heads of a Bill be prepared and brought in, pursuant to the said Petition."

"Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to prepare, and bring in, a Clause, to be inserted in the said Bill, or in such other Bill as they shall think fit, for Regulating of all Custom or Toll, taken in Fairs, Markets, or other Places, in this Kingdom: And that they have Power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records:"

"And a Committee was appointed accordingly."

18 September 1697. "Then the House proceeded to consider (fn. 2) [further] of the Heads of a Bill for preserving the Game; and more easy Conviction of such who shall destroy the same; and agreed thereto, with some Amendments."

"Ordered, That Mr. Solicitor-General do present the same to their Excellencies the Lords Justices; and humbly desire, That the same may be put into Form, and transmitted into England."

"Ordered, That a Clause be inserted in the said Bill, requiring, That it be read at every Quarter-Sessions."

And the Committee do also find, in a Bill transmitted under the Great Seal from Ireland, during the late Session of Parliament there, intituled, An Act for the better Security of his Majesty's Royal Person and Government, That the whole Act passed here in England, in the Third Year of their Majesties Reign, intituled, An Act for the abrogating the Oath of Supremacy in Ireland, and appointing other Oaths, is re-enacted with some Alterations; wherein, other Times and Places are appointed for taking the Oaths, and making the Declaration, therein mentioned, than were required by the said English Statute; particularly, That Barristers, Attornies, Solicitors, &c. shall, and are hereby required to take the Oaths, and make and subscribe the Declaration, appointed by that Act, in the Court of Chancery, or King's Bench, in Ireland; and that in another Clause, They shall and may take the said Oaths, and make and subscribe the said Declaration, in the Court of Chancery, or King's Bench, in England; though, by the English Statute, they are all required to take the Oaths, and make and subscribe the Declaration in the Court of King's Bench in Dublin.

And do also find, That, in the said Bill, it is Enacted, That nothing therein contained shall be dispensed with by any Warrants, or Letters Patents, under the Great Seal of England; and that such Warrants, or Letters Patents, are declared to be null and void, and of no Effect.

And that, in the same Bill, the Crown of Ireland is stiled the Imperial Crown of that Realm.

Ordered, That the further Consideration of the said Report be adjourned till To-morrow Morning.

Witness neglecting to attend.

The House being informed, That Mr. Arthur Goodwin, of Wivenhoo in Essex, hath been summoned, by a Warrant left with his Wife at his House, to attend the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence at the Tryal of John Goudet, and others, upon the Impeachments against them; but that he hath not attended;

Mr. Baker, and the Messenger who summoned the said Mr. Goodwin, were called in; and examined at the Bar, in relation thereunto.

And then withdrew.

Ordered, That the said Mr. Goodwin do attend this House upon Saturday Morning next.

Desborough's Share of Prize.

Ordered, That the Report from the Committee, to whom the Petition of Captain Desborough was referred, be made upon Friday Morning next.

Supply Bill; Raising Annuities. [New E. I. Co. incorporated.]

The House, according to Order, proceeded in the further Consideration of the Report from the Committee of the whole House, to whom the Bills for granting to his Majesty, his Heirs and Successors, several additional Duties upon Salt; and for raising a Sum, not exceeding Two Millions, by settling a perpetual Fund for Payment of certain Annuities, after the Rate of 8£. per Annum for every Hundred Pounds, and by further Advantages therein mentioned, redeemable by Parliament: were committed:

And several of the Amendments, made by the Committee, were read a Second time; and some of them disagreed, and others agreed, unto by the House.

Clause C being read a Second time, That the Governor and Company of Merchants of London, trading to the East-Indies, shall not, after the 24th of June 1698, borrow any Money at Interest, or contract any further Debt, for any Goods, or upon Bottomry, or otherwise howsoever, other than at Six per Cent. Interest.

And the Question being put, That the House do agree with the Committee in the said Amendment;

The House divided.

The Noes go forth.

So it passed in the Negative.

Clause D being read a Second time;

The same was amended by the House; and is, That the said Company shall pay and discharge all just Debts which they now owe, or are subject to; and that all Manors and Lands, heretofore granted to them, under the Great Seal of England, or the Grant of any other Person whatsoever, which they now or hereafter shall be possessed of, shall be subject to the Payment of such just Debts:

Then the Question being put, That the House do agree with the Committee in the said Amendment, so amended;

The House divided.

The Noes go forth.

So it was resolved in the Affirmative.

A Clause was offered, to be added to the Bill, That every Company or Corporation, that shall be established in pursuance of this Act, and their Successors, shall respectively take care, that the Sum total of all the Debts they shall owe, at one time, to any Person or Persons, Bodies Politick or Corporate, do not exceed the Value of their capital Stock remaining undivided:

And the same was once read:

And a Debate arising thereupon;

A Motion was made, and the Question was put, That the Debate be adjourned:

And it passed in the Negative.

The Clause being read a Second time; the same was, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House to be made Part of the Bill.

A Clause was offered, to be added to the Bill, for the receiving Bank-Bills and Notes in the Exchequer:

And the same was twice read, with Blanks; and the Blanks filled up; and the Clause amended:

And then the same was, by Leave of the House, withdrawn.

A Clause was offered, to be added to the Bill touching the Drawback on Salt:

And the Question being put, That the Clause be received;

It passed in the Negative.

A Clause of Appropriation was offered, to be added to the Bill:

And the same was once read, with Blanks:

And a Debate arising thereupon;

A Motion was made, and the Question was put, That the Debate be adjourned:

And it passed in the Negative.

The Clause was read a Second time:

And a Debate arising thereupon;

Resolved, That the Debate be adjourned till To-morrow Morning.

Ways and Means.

Resolved, That this House will, To-morrow Morning, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, for Ways and Means for raising the Supply granted to his Majesty: in order to consider of the Report from the Committee, to whom the Petitions of the Glass-makers and Pipe-makers were referred.

Committees.

Ordered, That all Committees be revived.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Nine a Clock.