House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 09 April 1624

Veneris, 9 Aprilis, 1624

Redferne.

REDFERNE 's Bill, - Monday next.

Recusants.

Order for presenting Recusants, to be this Day seven-night.

Free Trade.

Free Trade : - All to have Voice : And Mr. Banks added.

Benister.

Benister.

L.1 An Act -

Whetenhall's Lectures.

L. 1. An Act for the Establishing of Three Lectures in Divinity, given by Thomas Whetenhall Esquire.

Leiseur's Nat.

L. 1. An Act for the Naturalizing of Sir Stephen Leiseur Knight.

Sir Lewis Watson.

L. 2. An Act to confirm -

The Prince's Exchange.

Committed to Mr. Secretary Culvert, Sir Jo. Walter, Sir Tho. Trevor, Secretary Cottington, Mr. Spencer, Mr. Tho. Grantham, Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Noy, Mr. Hatcher, Sir Clem. Cotterill, Sir Will. Beecher, Sir Ar. Mannering, Mr. Jo. Drake, Sir Alex. St. John, Sir Mounta. Barte, Sir Cha. Mountacue: - To-morrow Afternoon, Court of Wards, Two a Clock.

Lead Oar.

L. 1. Lead Oar and Mine.

Sir Jo. Savyle: - To have Sir Rich. Lydall bring in his Bonds. - Ordered, He shall. - The Execution of Sir Jo. Jolles to be inserted to the Order.

Mr. Solicitor undertakes,, my Lord of Kelly shall yield unto it.

Chipenham Election.

Mr. Glanvill reports from the Committee of Privileges, for Chipenham. - The Case thus : This a Borough, Time out of Mind : Sent Burgesses in Edw. VI. Time. A Return, by the Mayor, and Burgesses at large, no certain Number. Committee took Two Things into Consideration : 1. Whether the Charter altered the Custom. - Agreed, not. 2. Whether proved, that the Burgesses at large made their Claim. - Some Contrariety in the Testimony of the Witnesses : - Confronted them, but could not reconcile them. The Committee of Opinion that Sir Fra. Popham was well elected. - Three: 1. More than the Bailiff, and Twelve, ought to have Voices. 2. Sir Fra. Popham well elected. - Met together: First chose Mr. Jo. Maynard the first Day. The second Day came in more than Twelve Men. The Warrant read above. When came down, the Burgesses declared they gave their Voice for Sir Fra. Popham. - Looked upon the Return; - Two Indentures returned : One between the Sheriff and Bailiff, by Name : To this 38 Seals. Here returned Charles, and Sir Fra. Popham, Char. Maynard amended. The other Indenture made between the Sheriff and the other Burgesses : Seven Seals to this Here Mr. Maynard returned, and Mr. Pym. So that nothing to be done, but that Indenture withdrawn ; and then Mr. John Maynard. - Resolved, That the new Charter alters not the Custom ; and that the Burgesses and Freemen, more than Twelve, have Voice in the Election.

Resolved, That Sir Fra. Popham is well chosen a Burgess for Chipenham; and that the void Indenture shall be withdrawn ; and Sir Fran. Popham be admitted into the House.

Newcastle under Line Election.

- Reports also for Newcastle under Line. - The Case thus. The Custom this : The Mayor, Aldermen, Two Bailiffs, and 24, and all Common-council, used to return. This appeared by an ancient Indenture. - Have a new Charter : Incorporated by a new Name. Made a Constitution, that the Mayor, Two Bailiffs, and chief Burgesses, should elect. According to this, they have elected. At the Day, the chief at the upper Room ; none of the Commonalty. Mr. Lucy, 26; Sir Edw. Veere, 16; Keeling, 9. After a 30 or 40, Afternoon, for Keeling; and so departed. - Two Points : 1. Of Opinion, that Mr. Lucy well chosen ; no body against him. 2. Next, that Sir Edw. Vere was not well elected, nor Mr. Keeling; and so a new Writ. -

The Coming of these Burgesses in an undue Manner, and went to the polling above. - These were not lawfully present.

Resolved, upon Question, That this late Constitution alters not the former Custom ; and that Mr. Rich Lucy was well chosen : and that the Election void for Sir Edw. Vere, and Keeling ; and that a new Writ shall go out, for a new Election for a new Burgess.

Stockbridge Election.

- For Stockbridge ; resolved by the Committee, that the Burgesses for that well elected. So affirmed by the House,

Gloster Election.

- For the County of Gloster; examined that too. - Appeared to the Committee, that the County-court kept at the usual Place: Made upon the Poll -: Proved, done in a convenient Place in a Church. - Committee thought, this Election the most fair of any that ever came before them. Resolved Four Points: 1. That Sir Tho. Escourt well elected. 2. That no Cause of further hearing. 3. Moved, to pay Costs : - Mr. Poynes. - But they cast off that Consideration, if no further pressed it. 4. That the Under Sheriff committed no Misdemeanor.

Resolved, That Sir Tho. Estcourt is well elected ; and that there shall be no further hearing of this Cause ; and no Costs to be paid by Mr. Poynes, if he trouble the House no further; and that the Under Sheriff hath committed no Misdemeanor about this Election.

Elections.

The Bill of Elections to be prepared.

Impositions on Trade.

Sir Edw. Sandys reports from the Committee for Trade; - In his former Reports sundry Branches only named, but referred to a future Examination, 1. Came to the over burthening of Trade. Began by the great Imposition of the Merchant Adventurers : Called them before them Yesterday. Next Business was the pretermitted Customs. Because the Question of great Importance, they proceeded to no Resolution, but referred it to the Examination of this House. Their Desire, to have a Day appointed for it, and the Lawyers to be warned to attend. For the Third Point; some new Impositions, by reason of a new Book of Rates.: These were the pretermit-ted Customs, the Impost on Wines, and Composition for Grocery Wares. For the Wines , informed, that this new Impost had originally Order from the Council. There first taken into Consideration, upon an extreme Necessity, to support the King's Royal Daughter, and her Consort: But this brought to a Privy Seal, continued it till this Parliament. This new Book of Rates doth make it perpetual : No Limitation of Time. Not conceived an Error in the Book; for in Practice, which is the best Expounder of the Law, at this Day levied. Some Merchants made a grievous Complaint against it, of the great Rigour in raising of it. Deterred to complain in this House. The Complaint of this, of Four Kinds ; 1. Unlawful : 2. Grievous for the present : 3. Dangerous for the future : 4ly, Partial. For the first; appears. For the second ; so grievous, that the Burthen on Wine more than the Wine itself. 3. Fearful for the future. Two Imposts on all Wines, Three upon some. - Et quis erit modus ? - For the 4th; more laid in London, than other Places. For the Grocery Wares; Lord Treasurer sent word, that this an Error in the Book ; Cause, why the Book suppressed. The Error is, that it is not suppressed. The Composition for London agreed on. - Volenti non fit injuria : - But not so for the Out-ports. Never made any such Contract. - King stands in his original Right of Purveyance. A Letter read of one Gardinar to Mr. Jacob. Mr. Jacob shewed him a Warrant under my Lord's Hand and Seal, to levy this Money, and to take no Entries without it. A little Variety in the former Imposts, For the Sugars ; Muscovado were but 50s. formerly, now 5l. Thought an Error in the Printer. Delivered no Opinion concerning these Things, but referred the serious Consideration thereof to this honourable House.

Mr. Spencer: - 1. To consider the Offence in general, by reason of these new Impositions; Who the Authors. For the Offence, Two: 1. Against the Laws : 2. Over- throw the Essence of a Subject. - 30 Chap. Magna Charta: 25 Edw. I. 7 Chap. - That they overthrow the Being of a Subject. He, that hath no Propriety in his Goods, is not free. Allowance of Impositions takes away all Propriety. These new Impositions against the Liking of the King. -

The Offence in these Particulars: 1. The Imposition on Sugar. - To send for the Printer, Felix Kingston. 2ly, Cui bono this Increase is: Who farms it. - Comes to the Lord Treasurer's Purse, 3ly. For the Wines; the Privy Seal contradicts the Great Seal. Lastly, in the Composition for Grocery, collected by a Warrant from my Lord Treasurer. -

3ly, To consider what hath been done in the like Cases. - 5th Edw. III. Rich. Lyons accused for Imposition on Wools. - Judgment, to be committed to the Prison, during the King's Pleasure. 15 Edw. III. Will. Lord Latimer impeached of the same Offence. Divers others. -

Lastly, what fit to be done now. - To follow the Steps of our Ancestors. To present these Things to the Lords, and desire Judgment against the Offenders. To appoint a select Committee, to prepare these Things for the Lords ; and then to desire a Conference about it.

Mr. Pitt delivers in a Copy of the Warrant of my Lord Treasurer, to the Customers of Poole, for levying of 4d. upon every Fardel of the Merchant.

Sir Ar. Ingram : - Will give Satisfaction for the Message he brought from my Lord Treasurer, Asked my

Lord Treasurer about the Book of Rates : He told him the Book not yet published : Said, the Book was stayed, because of the Composition for Grocery Wares : Said, there is no Warrant of his for Levying of it, since the Printing of the New Book of Rates.

Sir Rob. Philips: - My Lord Treasurer said, no Direction had gone down for gathering this Money, since the Book; yet true, this Money still gathered. - Mr. Ab. Jacob : He a principal Agent of my Lord, for these Businesses. - Matter, divided. Two Parts: 1. Ancient, concerning Right: 2. Modern, by Way of Increase. For the first; when questioned in the Queen's Time, and referred to the Judges, no Judgment given for them for any Right of hers. 2. Modern and Excess. - Precedents shewn of former Times, how Subjects have been dealt withal, that have misled their Sovereigns. - Would have the Right in general now declined. The wrong done, to be referred to a select Committee, that should carefully enquire into it, what the Wrong is, and who the Authors of it: Then, if any Man guilty, to present him to the Lords, to receive his due Punishment. - To have it referred to a Committee, to look upon these Impositions ; to examine by what means they came ; and those Men, that were deterred from complaining, to be sent for to this Committee.

Lord Cavendish : - Will add somewhat, by Way of Addition. - Cannot tell who was the Mover of this to the King; and yet expressed in the Book of Rates, the Farmers of the Custom-house. They confess, this to be done against their Will and Liking, and very prejudicial to the Farm. - To go on, this Afternoon, with the Business of the Court of Wards ; and to have the Report made of the Two other Matters examined.

Sir Edw. Cooke: - As in the natural Body, so in the politique: Humores moti, non remoti, laedunt corpus. Plain, that the Clause, against Impositions to be set, unless by Parliament, Parcel of Magna Charta. Edw. I. would not exemplify the great Charter, unless this left out. So says Walsingham and Wendover. Custom came by Act of Parliament. - One in print, Stat. 25 Edw. I. In old Magna Charta, "No Aid, nor Taking, nor Mise, nor any other Thing taken, unless by Parliament, unless Wools, Wool- fells, and Leather ; which was granted to us by the Commons:" Which must needs be in Parliament. Rotulo patentium, Edw. I. "Cum praelati, et magnates, et tota communitas, consesserint quandam novam consuetudinem, de lanis, pellibus, et coriis :" - So that it is clear, the King had it by Act of Parliament. Parva custuma came also. Capituli Itineris : Justices in Eyre gave Charge against new Customs, levied in the Kingdom, Land, Water, or other Place, and who was the Occasion of it - Nova custuma, parva, of the Stranger : Magna Charta against that. That gotten. - Charta (31) Edw. mercatoria : Divers Privileges granted to them. Thereupon they granted Ten Groats on a Sack of Wool. So that all Custom granted by Parliament, or by the Stranger. After, Ed. III. he had 20s. a Sack of Wool (no Act for this) but not as an Imposition. 11 Edw. III. a Law, that whosoever should transport Wool, should be a Felon. Then Drapery began : Then he made Dispensation, that they might carry Wools ; and he had 20s. a Sack. So this not by Prerogative. But this continued not long. Merchants consented to give him a greater Subsidy for Wool; but decried in Parliament; because, the Commons said, the Charge would lie on them: And so was overthrown. This another Windlace. All the Judges of England gave their Opinion, though not in print. King Philip, arrived at Southampton, for the Honour of that Town, granted to that Body, that all sweet Wines should be there only landed: If in any other Place landed, 3. Custom to be paid. This well obeyed, as long as Queen Mary lived. Then questioned, said to be against the Law: Brought into the Exchequer Chamber: There solemnly argued. One Point, whether the Grant good, to land all Wines there: 2ly, Whether the King could set a higher Custom. Argued Three Year. At Dyer's Chamber they resolved both Points, that neither could be done. When this known, went to the Parliament in 5o. and there got an Act of Parliament, that all Strangers should land their sweet Wines there -

Only now to lay Claim to our Right. - No time now to decrease the King's Revenue. But this a strange Case. Materiam superabit opus. The Imposition more in Value, than the Commodity itself. Colour upon Colour, and Metal on Metal, damnable Heraldry. -

Lower the Custom. - Kingston. -

Have the same Cause in Terminis terminantibus. - Was a great Man, a Duke of Suffolke, a great Favourite of Hen. VI. A main Article against him, that he procured divers Grants from the King, derogatory to the Commonwealth : Banished for it. Lord Latimer's Case in the very Point. Lyons, the Projector, Lord Latimer the Preferrer and Abettor: Disabled to serve the King, for imposing of a new-found Custom, quinquagesimo Edw. III. - To have this first soundly examined, and then to prefer that with the other. To select some Men.

Speaker propounds some Things to the House : 1. That the Dispute of the Royal Right of Imposing, now to be declined. - Resolved, Yes.

Sir Edw. Cooke, Sir Edwyn Sandys, Lord Cavendish, Mr. Spencer, Sir Rob. Pye, Mr. Tho. Fanshaw, Sir Fra. Seymour, Sir Natha. Rich, Sir Pet. Hayman, Sir Tho. Midleton, Sir Will. Fleetwood, Mr. Glanvill, Sir Rob. Philips, Sir Geo. Manners, Sir Fra. Barrington, Sir Dud. Digs, Mr. Noy, Sir Rich. Newport, Mr. Banks, Mr. Bateman, Sir Edw. Warder, Sir Guy Palmes, Mr. Jo. Cooke, Mr. Selden, Mr. Delbridge, Mr. Neale, Mr. Pit, Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Recorder : -

This Committee is appointed by the House, to examine and find out who advised the King, and first projected, the Issuing out of the Authority, concerning this new Imposition on Wine, Sugars, and Grocery ; and to enquire, who those Men were, that were deterred from complaining to this House; and who did deter them. And the Speaker to send his Warrant for such Men, as the Committee shall think fit to be examined in this Business ; and for such Books, Records, and Writings, as may further that Service: - To-morrow Afternoon, Court of Wards, Two Clock.

Person to attend, &c.

Mr. Solicitor : - Spoke with Mr. Jacob : Found in him a Desire to be heard. - Will tell all the whole naked Truth. - Hath recollected himself.

Ordered, That Mr. Jacob shall attend the Committee this Afternoon, at Two Clock.

Mr. Speaker.

Speaker to be here at Four Clock.

Conference.

Mr. Solicitor : - To give Direction for a Conference about the Petition. To send a Message to the Lords about it.

Dissolution of Treaties with Spain.

Mr. Alford: - Some Speech delivered in the Upper House, by a great Man, what the King would do about the Treaties. - To have him repeat it now to the House.

Mr. Solicitor : - Is ready to do it. - Arises upon the first Words of the Petition : " It having pleased his Majesty to dissolve." - Prince and Duke said, at our first Coming together, the King had done thus much : Spoken with the Spanish Ambassadors : Told him, according to his Advice given him, dissolved the Treaties. And Duke said, he saw the Dispatch into Spaine, wherein really signify so much. - Did actually dissolve the Treaties, according to the Advice of his Lords and Commons ; which no King did ever deny.

Message to Lords.

Mr. Solicitor sent up to the Lords, to desire, their Lordships to appoint a Time for the Petition concerning Recusants; and to let their Lordships know, that we desire the Conference, for the Bill of Monopolies, may be To-morrow Morning.

The Lords now up. - To go up To-morrow.

Lovell's Petit.

Mr. Solicitor tenders a Petition from Mr. Lovell.

Dissolution of the Treaties.

Mr. Solicitor to set down, in Writing, that which he hath delivered about the Dissolution of the Treaties ; the Treaties and to be entered into the Book.

Customs.

Ordered, That the Matter of the pretermitted Customs shall be debated in the House on Tuesday next; and all

the Lawyers of the House are especially required to attend, and prepare themselves for it in the mean time.

Statutes.

Continuance of Statutes : - To-morrow Morning Eight Clock.

Subsidies.

Sir Fra. Seymour: - Agreed before by this House, that the Three Subsidies, and Three Fifteens, should be paid within a Year after the King's Declaration. - To know, whether the House conceives, this publick Declaration to be already made. - Resolved, No.

Petition.

Sir Tho. Hoby : - To have the Petition go forward. - Not.....

Conference, &c.

Mr. Secretary :- - True, that he One appointed to make up the Publication. The Lords and they have had One Meeting, and have agreed on the Heads of it. They ready to attend again, when the Lords will appoint, with their Papers.

Dissolution of Treaties with Spaine.

Sir Edw. Cooke: - Till Signification made to the other King, no Dissolution of the Treaties.

Mr. Secretary Calvert : - A Gentleman gone into Spaine. - Thinks, he carried the Dispatch. - For One Treaty, little Ceremony to dissolve that: Only a Communication of it at Madrid.

Sir Tho. Wentworth ; - This Question will come in properly, when the Subsidy Bill comes in. In our last Declaration to the King, as much about the Dissolution of the Treaties, as in this Petition. - To go with the Petition.

Lord Mountacue.

Sir Ed. Cooke reports Lord Viscount Mountacue's Bill.

Sir Fra. Englefeild agreed to it.

Sutton's Hospital.

Sutton's Hospital: - This Afternoon; And all to have Voice.

Veneris, 9 Aprilis - post meridiem

SPEAKER went into his Chair.

Lord Treasurer. [ Earl of Middlesex.]

Sir Edw. Cooke reports from the Committee for Grievances. - Made an End of the first Part of my Lord's Charge, for the Gratuities. For the Matter of the Court; for Justice Sake thought good to give him Time to answer the Charge of the Bribes : - To-morrow, Two Clock, Afternoon, by his Counsel, or as he will.

Resolved, upon Question, That my Lord Treasurer shall have Copies of these Two Charges ; and that the Committee of Grievances shall sit To-morrow in the Afternoon, Two Clock : Then my Lord to come to his Answer, as pleases him.

Private Bills.

The Speaker to be here To-morrow Afternoon ; and to give second Reading to private Bills, if any Time for it.

Poor.

Committee for Poor, - Wednesday next, in the House.