Thursday, November 3.
[In a grand Committee on the Supply.]
Sir Thomas Dolman.] Moves to be considered 6d. upon
small beer and ale, and 15d. upon strong, towards the
payment of the King's debt.
Sir John Knight.] Supposes that some of this debt is
for stores of the Navy and Ordnance; reducing the eight
months to six, possibly a third part of the debt may be
abated. The Wine may discharge the debt upon it, and
the nation not be doubly charged for that debt—Would
have these things ascertained before the manner of the
Supply be debated.
Sir Thomas Strickland.] The 10 per cent. rakes all the
money of England into the Bankers hands, who are rather the depositories, most of the money being none of
their own. The money coming hither, we want it for
stock; but yet they have been useful in their generation.
The King could not else have been supplied—Hopes that
if we can lay it upon such funds as are safe, the Bank
may abate something of 10 per cent.
Mr Henry Coventry.] He would not have the debt paid
by making the King break his word. Without these men
the money was not to be had; and considering how long the
Lord Mayor and City were in paying the 50,000l. you
will conclude money not easily to be had at 6 per cent.
Every man will put his money into your fund rather than
the Bankers. He is not of the profession of those that
manage the fleet; but will say, that if the neighbours
that may be enemies shall know that supply cannot
come seasonably, we may be at the same pass as when
the Dutch came upon our coasts; which was caused by
having spent our fleet out at sea too early that year.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Fretchville Holles talks, as if money was to be given because it is asked. It was never
heard of that the Parliament paid guards. What is the
proper charge of Parliament he will be ready to pay;
when accounts are better stated, will propose his way, as
others have done theirs.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Have you a mind to spoil the Act
for Excise? Drinking is the trade they grow rich by.
Lay what you will upon Wine; but will you lay it upon
your own manufacture? Let that be the utmost extremity. It was part of our order to have some particulars from the Custom-house, in order to foreign commodities.
Sir John Duncombe.] The King's estate is, in effect,
mortgaged to these Bankers. Take the fund where you
will, if it be but upon things certain, and time certain,
and so transfer the debt as may satisfy. Without postponing, is there a better thing than the Excise? Hopes
all ways will be tried before we come to Land-Tax. Is
there a better credit, or one that comes in more easily?
There is no hurt to say, let it bear what it can bear, in
part of the whole.
Sir Edmund Pooly.] Would have you, whatever way
is granted, make it such a fund as may considerably abate
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Moves that the Bankers may
bring in the particulars whose this money is, and make
them the King's creditors. You may, by that, take off a
fourth part. Whatever excise you lay upon malt is an
absolute Land-Tax—Would lay it upon Wine for some
Colonel Birch.] Money is commonly now at 7l. 10s.
per cent. and formerly at 5l. 10s. per cent. As Interest
goes up, Land goes down, like a pair of scales. He
would not have the King break his word; but when the
Commons of England espouse his debt, it is another case
—Would have some persons consult the Excisemen what
it may bear.
Mr Garroway.] The Genoese Bankers have ruined the
King of Spain. We should not have feared the King of
France, if he had kept the Bankers; he made himself
great by destroying them. Fouquett.—At this time he
would only fright them, but if they attempted Banking
hereafter, he would ruin them. They are the Commonwealth's-men that destroy the nobility and gentry. All
tradesmen turn Bankers. To lay 18d. will destroy the
Farmers; the Excise being high, will make every man
turn Brewer for himself.
Mr Secretary Trevor.] At the best your choice must
be comparatively, always will be ill. This same hand
that calls for the former charge, may call for the rest.
'Till he can hear a better proposal, is for this. But fears
still that Land-Tax, as certain, will be the last refuge.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Let us not please ourselves with names,
when the thing will be Land-Tax, and shall never think
himself safe 'till we say clearly we will not do it. The
worst part of Land-Tax is to subject the farmer to the
Excisemen. Would have the thing clearly spoken, whether the Seller, or Common Brewer, must only bear the
Excise. Will you make poor labouring men drink water
at home, by laying this upon the house-keeper? Is for it,
if restrained only to Brewers.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Our business is not to be done
at once, but we must approach it by degrees. Hopes
we shall ransom ourselves from the Bankers by this Bill.
Thinks that unless Excise be universal, it will destroy the
revenue already granted. Every thing by consequence is a
Land-Tax. Is it possible that this can do, for now much
more will people brew at home, to avoid the charge; but
for the farmer he hopes you will so order it, that that
objection will be taken away. Wards are taken away.
He is against Gagers and Searchers, but not against a
Poll by proportion. You have your Bill for this already
drawn; it is only a third Bill of Excise. It has been
formerly in debate, 2s. 6d. a competent Poll, and rid of
all the trouble of officers.
Sir Robert Carr.] Hears great objections against a
Land-Tax, but would not take a worse way. Would have
it debated whether a Land-Tax be not a way much more
certain and less burthensome.
Sir Robert Howard.] If the Excise be greatly loaden,
you may hear by the next Session that the Farmers will
not take it. Domestic, in the way proposed, is unequal;
the poll will not operate upon private barrels. Necessities are like absurdities in speech, one draws on another.
Wishes that the King's steet may not have these continual defects. Why should we not fall upon things less
scrupled against, as sealed paper, spices, linnen, &c. If
these things may do, who cares for sealed paper, spices,
&c. These things may produce 100,000l. and then we
have still the less to do; these things as superfluous,
and honest necessity supplied at last. Would have a Committee to consider on these things; then you have the less
to do. But not by the barbarous way of a Poll, that I
may not pay for so many of my dead men, and another
for men he makes profit by.
Sir Thomas Clifford.] Land-Tax is very unequal; Cambridge and Norfolk, and some other places, pay 4s. per
pound. To say that Poll is an oppression—We have tried
it; you may make the Poll to be rated at Sessions, and
none to pay but such at brew themselves; they pay but
for their family, so that no hospitality is destroyed. The
House was once driven upon this point, and upon division, but three difference. Compounding for this Excise
is not a greater grievance than the taking away the child,
and heir of the house, from the mother's breast, for a
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Salt excepted, few or no commodities will raise 20,000l. a year.
[To proceed to-morrow.]
Friday, November 4.
Debate [on the Supply resumed] in the House.
Mr Jones.] Would have it considered what the traders
are, Foreigners, Jews, Spaniards, that deal here in person, and come with their own goods, and return their
money by bill, or carry it away with them, which is all
one. Should you lay a burden upon any commodity, it
would spoil trade. It is the keeping up your shipping,
your mariners, your land also, that is the whole support
of the Crown. Chimney-money, Excise, all lights upon
corporations. Hopes no burden will be laid, but what it
may reasonably bear.
Colonel Birch.] It is certain that the number that bring
honey to the hive is few. Any way to bring in money is
grievous enough, easy only comparatively. If you lay
any thing upon the importer of foreign commodities,
you distress trade as much as a council of Dutch or French
would do; but if you lay it upon the retailer, and but
few commodities neither will bear it, you may better
arrive at your end. If you would put on but 2d. more,
you give the East India trade to the Dutch, because
two-thirds are exported again. If 90,000 Apothecaries,
that consume these drugs, may be rated, you may do
something. A penny taken off at the Custom-house, and
6d. a year laid upon the retailer, you may raise what you
will, and do no hurt. Tobacco adulterates our gentry,
and hinders much consumption of corn.
Sir Charles Harbord.] Would never have the Farmer of
the Customs, or the Merchant, your Counsellor only, but
your informer.—Would have a special Committee to prepare things; we may quickly make a rich Merchant, but
a beggarly Kingdom.
In a Grand Committee.
Colonel Birch.] Every Apothecary 4l. a-piece, will
raise 360,000l. per ann. Would not have the importer
charged, by reason of the numerous officers and streetwalkers. Formerly we bought all our arms in Germany;
we having iron of our own, that trade is gone. We have
now much silk of our own, and that will work out the
Sir George Downing, against Birch.] What's good for
trade is bad to raise money. Example—The Linnendraper
sells your own, and by laying upon him you destroy
home. So for silks, and a discouragement equal to
home commodities. Dyers as bad; for blacks, and
bright colours, and scarlets, are all foreign dyes. Bring
down the Customs, and lay the whole load upon what is
spent, or your land will never rise. Laying it upon the
shop-keeper is nothing pro or con to the trade; it is only
upon the person of the man. The Hollanders lay but 4s.
per ton at the Custom-house, and yet they raise more
money than we. But this collects all the Excise in Holland; no army in the case. The Wine pays no duty 'till
it be stirred out of the cellar, and that not without the
brief of the Excise officers, and by their Porter. This
country knows very well what it is to pay, and what to
be rich under payments; and that you may make this
kingdom so, it is in your power—Thinks it will not be
so well to refer it where opinions may be byassed in point
of interest; but would have us limited to a question.
[To proceed on Monday.]
Monday, November 7.
In a Grand Committee [on the Supply.] Tobacco.
Sir John Knight.] This commodity yields seven-score
thousand pound per ann. one third part of the Customs of England. The port of Bristol has 6000 ton of
shipping. The King gains 5l. a head by every man that
goes into the Plantations. It employs half the ships of
Bristol. Many leave their tobacco at the Custom-house,
for want of money to pay the Custom. If you lay this
2d. at the Custom-house, it will spoil both navigation
aud the King's revenue. If you will do any thing in
tobacco, the 2d. a pound at the Custom-house must be
taken away, viz. 1d. Custom, and 1d. Excise; if you
export it again, you are abated three halfpence.
Sir William Thompson.] Those of Holland have lowered
their Custom to six guilders, viz. 3s. the hogshead. In
England it was once high rated, and then the people stole
it. It came to 2d. and then it was well paid. It was
raised in the troubles, and then ill paid. Now the
Custom of 2d. raises more than ever. It is of great concern to the nation in point of navigation, for great ships
in the Streights, which, in this day of our neighbours
arming, are of great use to the King. If we lay great
duty, great ships cannot bring it, and it will be stolen in
by small ships into creeks, and so both ships and King's
revenue be destroyed by it. It brings in 100,000l. per ann.
to the King. It was once the King's commodity. The
Patent to Lord Goring brought in nothing considerable; and for Licences it brought in 10,000l. per ann.
It is now ordinarily 20s. to the importer; the King has
3l. Rate it higher, neither Merchant nor King will have
benefit by it. It will be like the Mathematician's notion,
that could quiet the sea ten miles off, and was himself
driven in by storm.
Mr Cheney.] In the year 1656 tobacco came to 190,000l.
per ann. It was then practised, and laid upon the first
buyer. The foreign tobacco at 1 s. per pound, English
Plantation at 1d. per pound, and after the landing; therefore no pretence of damage.
Sir Robert Howard.] The addition upon beer and ale
will come to 200,000l. per ann. on tobacco 80,000l.
salts of all sorts 30,000l. linnen, lockerums, canvas,***
currants, 50,000l. drugs numerous, iron, 10,000l. sealed
paper, 40,000l. sugar Brasil at 6s. Muscovado at 3s. Barbadoes sugar 80,000l. Customs shall be entire, and no
more officers. Can easily make out 500,000l. a year,
and who shall be damnified? What he has said he will
make good, and hopes it will be improved by some
Sir Thomas Meres.] This overdoes the work, and these
things may be lowered by the Merchant. These for five
years will over-do the business.
Mr Garroway.] Must believe all these things when he
can have no better light, and is ready, (only against
"sealed paper," which is not thoroughly debated yet)
to give his vote for all the rest.
Sir John Duncombe.] Would have Howard tell us how
he can make his proposals good.
Sir Robert Howard.] He will not expose himself to
warrant what you will not accept of; but tell him which
you will accept of, and he will give you good security
for the rent. When you approve the clauses for the retailer, one Act will serve for all.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Would see these clauses in writing,
and would let Howard have a time assigned him.
Sir Thomas Clifford.] The thing and the sum is totally
new. Many things in gross fall away in particulars—
Would see, in a prospect, whether on retailer or Customhouse.
Sir Robert Howard.] Excepts the fishery entire, excepts
all exportations, excepts the Custom-house wholly, only
on the retailer.
Sir Richard Temple.] Would have Howard ordered to
bring in a Bill, with blanks.
Sir Robert Howard.] Would not raise steps for others
to go upon. If the House thinks this a reasonable revenue, he will serve the House; but if, by that day, the
Lords of the Treasury can bring in more, he will not
hinder the King's revenue.
[To proceed on Thursday.]
Thursday, November 10.
In a Grand Committee [on the Supply.]
Sir Robert Howard.] Returns all humble thanks to the
Committee for their charitable interpretation of his proposals. Has met with difficulties enough to shake him,
since he proposed the business, but hopes he shall answer
their expectation in some measure. For this service he
has taken care of the manufacture of the nation, that
that be not impaired; exportation he has not touched
at all. Brings in a paper of rates upon several things,
as salts, linnens, silks, wrought and unwrought iron, sugars, fruits, spices, copper. If the Wine-Act may be
let, in the method he proposes, with the Customs, &c.
516,000l. a year may be made. Some may say, that
this being farmed by one person, here may be a banking
trade set up. But for advance, he will undertake that
the money shall be advanced at 6 per cent. All the country farmers shall not sink, but this and that stand together. If people like not the bargain, he will undertake
it shall be made good, and will take it. 400,000l. a
year clear he will undertake to make good. If you like
this proposition, he hopes he shall be supported by you,
and that another shall not build on his foundation. He
will secure the rent, and hopes he may not suffer under it,
and that you will take that care of him, as is requisite
for one that will faithfully serve his prince.
Sir Thomas Clifford.] If he understands Howard right,
he says that his proposals shall not at all hinder the Farmers of the Excise, which they hope to improve 30,000l.
per ann. and the customs also—Thinks they have bodies
of men, who will be competitors for the Customs, WineAct, and Licences. He thinks that what Howard has
said, will not impede any of these; but if none of these
proposals shall hinder, that it is one of the best propositions that can be made. There may be such discourse of
this business at this Committee, as that no man will take
it out of his hand.
Sir Robert Howard.] Now I am satisfied what is expected from me, I am to make the best of it, and have
the worst. But what I said must be done by the same
officers. The wind is now changed; some cannot be
improved; he will secure the Country Excise; he will
take the Wine at 160,000l. per ann. that improved
60,000l. per ann. If generally it can be said that it can be
better improved, he has done. They that can serve the
King better, he would have them rise and do it.
Sir Thomas Clifford.] Supposes the Customs will be
advanced 60,000l. and the Excise 30,000l. per ann. If
we lay aside the form at the Treasury, we shall break
the public faith; it is not one person or another that must
please the King; it is the whole House.
Sir William Lowther.] Would not have the day for
farming the Customs kept, but put off—That may as
well be as the Excise: By that the Custom-house may be
free to some alterations, as to Sir Robert Howard's proposals.
Sir Richard Temple.] It was never intended by Howard
to take out of the Customs to make out his proposals.
If you will dispose of the King's revenue, and join it to
another proposition, you must have the King's leave.
Upon the supposition that Howard thinks it a necessity
that both be taken together, then, before Howard declares his way particularly, that you recommend him to
the King to be the Farmer.
Mr Garroway.] Would never have it the practice of
this House to make such bargains as Temple makes—
Fears that that revenue being put into one hand (he knows
not whose, and cares not) will be worse than the Bankers.
Those that have it will be masters of all the money, and
though it be but at 6 per cent. yet anticipations will make
it 10 per cent. Does not believe but that Howard will offer
fair things, but he has seen a Bill drawn with clauses of
judicature, locks and keys, &c.—Would have no bargains; if the gentleman will rely upon the House, he
will serve him, but farther no man.
Sir Robert Howard.] He designed no ingrossing, but
is almost terrified, if such a thing could do it; he tells
Garroway, he hates it as much as he, and with the loss of
his head; but he never moved any going to the King, or
bargaining. Had he thought of half this opposition, he
would have had his hand struck off rather than he would
have drawn a Bill "with locks and bolts."
Mr Garroway.] Never looked upon it as Howard's design, but spoke it by way of debating the thing, but did
not say the word "ingrossing."
Sir George Downing.] When he tells you how it shall
be collected, then you may say which is better, but not
till you have the proposition. Copper-plates, and silk
thrown, is all the difference of what has been already
proposed. Expressed himself, as if this was raking in the
dirt for things.
Sir Robert Howard.] To tell him of "dirt!" Whatever
the King and Council approves is best, and so has taken
up his dirt.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Would have us go on upon the heads
we were formerly upon; for he finds not the propositions
so particular as he expected.
Sir Thomas Meres.] We need no precedent for going
to the King; but no precedent of ever giving the King
such a revenue.
Sir John Duncombe.] Was it his case, he would lay the
thing entirely before you, as not to doubt in you—Would
have it left to his own way, to recollect himself against
Colonel Birch.] He is far from thinking that Howard
comes hither for reward. He thinks he should say before
the King and his Ministers what he has said to you;
that the King's revenue should not be impaired; if so,
all his motions fall to the ground. That he should be
recommended to the King to farm that which no man else
would, is a strange proposal. He is of opinion, that if
the King's revenue should be in one hand, it would be
ill—Would have the Debate adjourned.
Sir Thomas Clifford.] It is not he that bids most shall
have the Customs and Excise, but he that gives the best
security, and other cautions; so that the best bidder shall
not have all, but with qualifications; that a body of men
shall not have it, and the revenue be all in one hand.
Sir Robert Howard.] You will either in twenty-four
hours hear no more of him, or else he shall come more
chearful than formerly. With what care has he preserved
the Excise? If he be as cold to-morrow morning as
now, he has done; but will still make good the King's
revenue, as he has proposed.
Sir Thomas Lee.] This way, proposed by Howard, that
money will be lent at 6 per cent. may be much worse than
10 per cent. by engrossing all into one hand.
Lord St. John.] To-morrow he hopes Howard will be
able to make out his propositions, and will engage for his
performance of them.
[To proceed on the 7th.]
[Nov. 7 and 10, omitted.]
Friday, November 11.
On Sir John Prettyman's Case. Suspended for protecting one
Humes, an infamous fellow.
Mr Waller.] Persons that serve here are fiduciaries for
the places they serve for. In Queen Elizabeth's time,
he has heard that, upon dismembering, we had recourse
to the Lords in a legislative way. But he has seen forty
expelled the House in the business of monopolies for
[To proceed on the 14th.]
In a Grand Committee on the Supply.
Sir Robert Howard.] Told the King he would make
this revenue [of the Customs] as he proposes it, 500,000l.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Howard ought not to tell us what
the King said to him, or he to the King.
Sir Robert Howard.] Has nothing obligatory upon
Sir Thomas Lee.] Would have some vote against home
Mr Attorney Finch.] Unnecessary to debate what we
shall not differ in first. Thinks that the ways and means
of levying this Excise may be by the same ways and
means as by the former Act. To make a vote against
home Excise is to vote a Negative, which we need not
fear in the way we are in.
Sir Thomas Clifford.] We must do nothing to wither or
blast the vote of the House to supply the King, Nemine
Mr Henry Coventry.] Against all exclusions, till the
last, because that by such a vote we may contradict the
vote of Supply. This Excise is but probationary, not
perpetual as the former.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] When a thing is ready, and all
officers settled, although the thing be at first probationary
for five years, it has lasted much longer. That being no
argument, would have it with no other restrictions than
the former Act.
Sir Robert Howard.] The proposal extends not to private houses at all. He proposed not any thing as ripe,
but to be improved by you.
Sir Richard Temple.] Hears that some Aldermen in
London do brew for themselves, out of animosity, to break
the Farmers of Excise. The restriction within corporations, he hopes, will break these animosities.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Would have such a touchstone as to
know how it shall appear that a man does brew or not
brew, without search.
Sir Robert Howard.] If the gentleman cannot answer
himself, he despairs of doing it. You must do it as
you prove felony, or any thing else; and it is in the
power of the Justice to send his Mittimus, or not, and so
in this case.
Mr Secretary Trevor.] If any man that has not formerly brewed, and by frustrating the duty will brew himself, he shall pay the Excise, and would have what penalty you will upon any wrongful information.
[Resolved, That towards the King's Supply there be an additional Excise of 15d. on every barrel of strong beer and ale, and
6d. on every barrel of small beer and ale, brewed by the common
Brewer and Retailer.]
Resolved, That if any person, inhabiting in any house within
a corporation, or within distance thereof, in which house
there hath been no brewing within time last past, that that
person shall not be permitted to brew during the time that the additional excise shall be paid, without being liable to the payment
of the said duty.
[And a Bill was ordered to be brought in accordingly.]
[To proceed to-morrow.]
Saturday, November 12.
Sir Thomas Higgons, upon Mr Bertie's complaint, that
[John Durant] a horse courser, did upbraid him, "That he
cared not for him; he and the rest of the Parliamentmen had never done good to the nation," said,] These
words were spoken by a drunken man. Qui non lædit sed
The man was brought to the Bar, and upon submission, and
confession that he was drunk when he said the words, was dismissed; the Speaker bidding the Serjeant take 5s. of him, for being
drunk (fn. 1) .
In a Grand Committee [on the Supply] Tobacco.
Mr Boscawen.] Barbadoes employs an hundred sail
of ships, and by laying upon Tobacco, you will destroy that plantation, and others, which take many commodities from us, as shoes, hats, &c.
Sir John Duncombe.] The King has conferred with persons that will give money for several of our propositions.
Would rather have but 3d. a pound on it than destroy the
Sir John Knight.] If you put 6d. upon it, it is six
times as much as it is worth, considering the duty already paid; tobacco being often left at the Custom-house
already, rather than pay the duty.
Sir George Downing.] 315,000l. the highest that ever
was in the book of Rates, 'till 1660, and then raised
to 400,000l. Your navigation has increased upon it,
and your trade. Diamonds rough, 200,000l. the year,
come into England; the grinders, who formerly were at
Amsterdam, now the trade is at London, are gone from thence
and Venice. Plantations do not only bring home and
send abroad too, but vend your manufactures. Butter
formerly, and cheese, went out without licence; but by
free trade of it, it is worth 20s. the firkin in the North,
which was a Suffolk price, and they grown much into the
trade. He says, lay what you will, it will prejudice the
Customs, and the Farmer will not give. The first Act
of Wine has had such an effect, that the abatement has
been great by Wine-Licences, besides the King's Customs, so that in fact that commodity falls. Two ways
are proposed, first buyer, or retailer. If you will answer
your end, you must moderate the book of Rates, and
lay all upon the Excise, and the charge upon the first
buyer will be taken for granted. It is of great consequence that you lose not the plantation-trade. Does not
say but the commodity may bear 2d. Tobacco in leaf
is better for foreigners. Great quantities of tobacco are
planted in Holland. By wrapping it up in our leaf, they
sell it for Spanish, and their own for Virginia. The common people love tobacco, as they do ale, which is the
headiest. They send it to Muscovy, and Northwards,
wrapping it up in our Virginia leaves.—20l. of tobacco
easily stolen in seamens slops; the reason why they wear
them. You know the number of Holland fishermen and
seamen, and it will be landed here, and carried away by
such men, and so save the duty by importation. Besides,
the Scotch have their spices out of Holland; they will be
too at that pass for tobacco, that more [money] will come
in at 2d. than 3d.
Mr Jones.] This commodity yields the King 100,000l.
per ann. Retailers of this are like Apothecaries, they
trade but for a little, and therefore they must get much.
If the Londoner gets by the country chapman a farthing
the pound, he thinks himself well, and, it may be, stays
six months for his money. He that deals thus cannot
stand, he must break. Most part of the corporations of
England do subsist by this trade of tobacco, what in taphouses, and strong-water shops; the greatest part of the
fleet depends upon it; they will think the Custom and
Excise worth venturing, and they will steal. If they be
but clear from discovery once in four times, they are
Sir Robert Howard.] The Customs will not sink, and
he will make it good they shall not. If any of the King's
Ministers will make more of it, let them.
Mr Henry Coventry.] Making good what he has spoken
of—It is not farming here, now no sum set by Parliament. A great sum of money was lent to the Chamber
of St George at Genoa; both those that lent it, and their
heirs, have governed Genoa by it ever since. Let us give
frankly and freely what we do.
Sir Robert Howard.] Knows not what "St. George's
Chamber" is, but would sooner be the Dragon, than do
any thing unworthy in this business.
Mr Vaughan.] You may make "a penalty upon stealing" the great argument, and may prevent it by laying
Sir Thomas Osborne.] Something of this has been formerly observed in point of trade. The buyer is to pay
the moiety, and so it signifies nothing in frightening people away from our ports, as it has been in Wine.
Mr Spry.] The trade of tobacco could not have been
continued, if tobacco had not been spent; all the King's
revenue is laid on what is here consumed. The commodity may bear 3d. King's Custom 2d. the Planter 1d. In
their country they pay 12d. for that will cost but 4d. per
Sir Richard Temple.] Laying so great a duty on foreign, and small upon home commodities, will cause all
our own to be consumed, and little foreign, and so the
revenue not be made out—Would have a penny per galon Scotch salt.
Mr Garroway.] The duty of salt upon salt, when a
halfpenny per gallon, never worth gathering.
Sir Charles Harbord.] Salt upon salt is home salt made
with salt water; it is a home-made manufacture, and it
is a pernicious thing to charge it.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Salt upon salt is made with our
own salt and salt water boiled up.
Sir George Downing.] Salt upon salt is made often of foreign salt; as for that made only of home materials, would
not have that in the question; not to discourage our own,
would have a nick and a mark set on all French commodities—Moves for foreign salt upon salt a penny per
[To proceed to-morrow.]
[Monday, November 14, Sir John Prettyman was suspended
sitting in the House 'till he should produce Robert Humes.]
Tuesday, November 15.
Debate on Lord Newburgh's affair.
[The House being informed, that the House of Lords had
passed some orders concerning the Lord Newburgh's possession of
certain lands in Lincolnshire; the said orders were read; the one
dated the 10th, the other the 14th of November instant. Journal of this day.]
Sir Robert Atkins.] The Lords judgment is, that the
Duke of Richmond be put into actual possession, and not
be content with the rents only, and then Lord Newburgh
has no remedy against the tenants by their bonds. The
great point of this case is, whether the bare naked attournment (fn. 2) from one that has not so good title to another that has [be sufficient;] the Lords do adjudge this
to be a breach of Privilege. Our Member, Lord Newburgh, does but barely accept the attournment, and this
is punished as a breach of Privilege.—The tenant knows
not which to attourn to, Privilege being in both cases.
He should have advised the tenant to have exhibited a
bill in equity; but the serving of the Subpæna would have
been a breach of Privilege. In this case a great stress and
difficulty lay upon the tenant; therefore thinks this very
unreasonable to punish the tenant.—The Lords cannot
but take notice that the consequence reflects upon your
Member. They do judicially determine, as, by the words
of the order, "they do not surmise that Lord Newburgh
has done any thing indirectly;" therefore we are not to presume it—The Lords have given judgment, and this day
have ordered execution; they are before-hand with us.
It would have been an equal way, if the Lords would
have had a conference with us.—Sees not what you can
farther examine in the business.—Desires it may go speedily to an issue, not to a Committee, but by hearing of
Counsel—Moves that if any persons be to be heard in it,
they may be called in.
Mr Milward.] As the case may stand, attournment or
no attournment may be a breach of Privilege, if any disturbance be on my person, or if goods or lands be taken.
if the tenant pay not his landlord his rent, it is no breach
of Privilege; attournment by tenant at will is. When I
am sued, my Privilege is broken, but not in what occasions me to sue as Plaintiff.
Sir Job Charlton.] This possession got by our Member may be a modern possession, got since the Session of
Mr Secretary Trevor.] Thinks we must be better informed before we can proceed.
[It was referred to a Committee.]