Wednesday, January 18.
On the Duke of (fn. 1)
Albemarle's remove to the House of Lords;
and Devonshire new Election.
[Letters and papers had been sent to pre-engage the County,
and were delivered in at the table.]
Sir Thomas Clifford.] Is not against reading the letters
sent out by the Deputy Lieutenants, for we know that
curiosity must be satisfied; but thinks it not proper to
read them—The question is, Whether you want a Member?—He has seen copies of letters to Constables on both
sides—It was said, "that if such a gentleman was chosen,
they would throw him over Exeter castle-walls;" and in
this case letters of pacification were written; so that these
things are properly to be brought before you when the
Election is determined, therefore thinks it not proper now
to read them—There are 8 or 9000 freeholders in Devonshire, and these warrants were to prevent heats, they
being mettled men—There is an order of the House for
stopping the issuing out a writ for Devonshire—The
Speaker now certifies a vacancy to the Lord Keeper, and
does not send a warrant, as is your ancient way—Lord
Mordaunt, the Lord General, and Lord Sandwich, sat here
some days after they were created, and took their leaves
of the House—This Duke of Albemarle is not unqualified to sit, having no writ—The Judges have sat here,
before the writ that called them to the House of Peers
incapacitated them—Moves to appoint a select Committee to enquire into precedents—Supposes him to be still
your Member, and liable, upon default, to your double
Mr Vaughan.] This is to give out a Conge d'élire for
your Member, and with a style of authority which will ruin
us; and when such things are done, the Constitutions of
Parliaments are shaken.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Chusing a Parliament-man is nothing to the peace of the country—Peers have no voices
at Elections—It may come at last to the Lord Lieutenant
and his Deputies to chuse Members of Parliament.
Mr Cheney.] Here is undoubtedly the substance of a
warrant in this paper—My Lord of Bath meant it well,
but by this warrant my Lord of Bath is injured, and so
would have it voted—There was a report that this Parliament should be dissolved; and a person sollicited in a
Borough to be chosen the next Parliament, and you sent
for him in custody—Hopes you will think this a violation of your Privileges, and so vote it.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] 3 Hen: VI. "Clergy of the Convocation have the same liberty as the great men and
commonalty of England"—23 Hen. VI. "Penalty of Sherisfs for false returns, &c."—23 Henry VI. "No man in
power shall write letters;" and would have it put to the
question, Whether this be not an imposition upon the
Sir Thomas Osborne.] Several have sat here sub silentio
that were Peers, but for a short time; and those under
age, not of right, but sub silentio.
Mr Waller.] They have been connived at—He was
but sixteen when he sat first, and sometimes it has been
thought fit that young men may be early in Councils,
that they may be alive when others are dead—You cannot tax him, nor punish him, if he sat here—He must
be tryed by his Peers.
Sir Richard Temple.] Lord Camois was degraded from
his Peerage, for sitting in the House of Commons.
Sir John Birkenhead.] If he be a Peer, he needs not
take the Oath of Supremacy, nor be sworn in the Courts
at Westminster.—Camois was degraded for fighting two
Mr Swynfin.] You ought to grant a writ—It concerns
both the County and the House—The Duke is so much
a Peer, that he cannot serve here—One may be a Peer,
and not sit there—The Catholic Lords were sometimes
uncalled, and yet sat not here—He cannot give evidence
in Westminster-hall upon oath—He is so much a Peer,
that he cannot be a Commoner.
Resolved, That the sending of warrants, or letters in the nature of warrants, or letters to High Constables, or Constables,
or other officers, to be communicated to the Freeholders, or
other Electors, when a Knight of the Shire, or other Member,
is to be chosen to serve in Parliament, or threatening the Electors, is unparliamentary, and a violation of the Rights of Elections.
[The writ for the Election of a Member for Devonshire ran
thus, "The father being dead, and his son being a Peer of the
Mr Vaughan.] Take heed how you judge who is a
Peer of the Realm; he may be a Baron, and no Peer.
Thursday, January 19.
In a Grand Committee, on the Subsidy Bill. [The Bankers
Mr Garroway.] You must go in all measures with
other nations in trade, and so in your interest of high
and low—Would go high upon the Bankers, but low
upon the King; for so the money of England will be at
Sir Thomas Littleton.] If you put it at 7 per cent. you
may raise possibly 500,000l. upon the Act; if so, you
know not the consequence—We flatter ourselves, that,
if we think to have any relief, by transferring 8 per cent.
it will bring in something to the purpose.
Sir Thomas Lee.] By transferring, they will save so
much, for the Banker has more—The consequence of
this is, that no man shall have money in the country to
drive on his trade—The greater sum will create so many
Colonel Birch.] The Bankers may revive, though
they are thought dead.—Knows not where they are
wounded, but in the displeasure of this House—If he
was one of them, he would think of transferring, and
the consequence of 10 per cent.—Would have it that
what Bankers will transfer to the King at 7 per cent.
should be pardoned for their 10 per cent. for time past.
Mr Attorney Finch.] It is certain that they do take
10 per cent. but as certain that they take 6 and 4 gratuity—The consequence of Birch's motion is, that if they
transfer, they shall be indemnified, but if not, they are
Sir John Duncombe.] If the words are directly, or indirectly, 7 per cent. it ties up the King for ever, that, let
his necessity be what it will, he can never take up any
money—It is said the King may be helped by Parliament, but shall he call a Parliament for every emergent
Mr Garroway.] Would have the Bankers indemnified,
but only for their 10 per cent. and not upon the branches
of the revenue that are ready money, as the ChimneyAct, &c.—It will not possibly do your business out of
the country in that time, therefore you must think necessary tranferring no other than the Fee-farms and WineAct.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Is in great strait to hear that all the
money the King owes is at 10 per cent. when he hears
that now the King borrows at 6 per cent.—Would know
from the Exchequer what those payments are.
Sir Robert Long.] In the Exchequer they never record
above 6 per cent. The other is by way of gratuity, but is
by Privy-seal—In another notion, the 4 per cent. is recorded in the issue as plainly as any other sum—The
King gives authority to the Commissioners of the Navy,
to take up at as great a rate as the Exchequer takes up;
but all comes at last to the Exchequer.
Sir Thomas Oshorne.] In the Audit he is concerned in,
they take all up at 10 per cent. but it may be it will not
appear this year—The Exchequer sometimes gives you
orders for a credit, when they have no money—The
Commissioners of the Treasury allow them to give 4
per cent. gratuity, which they account for in the Exchequer.
[To proceed to-morrow.]
Friday, January 20.
In a Grand Committee, on the Subsidy-Bill.
Mr Gould.] If you rate a man at his goods, it may
be he is worth 20,000l. and he has not half by him, and
so you cannot tax above half—75,000l. will come upon
Sir Thomas Meres.] Upon the whole, let the Raters
rate every man according to his personal estate, debts comprised, and you will raise more money than upon the
Sir William Coventry.] Would have stock in trade left
out; you have excepted it in other Acts—Fears that it
will be in this as in ill times, rather trust God with their
souls, than men with their estates—Money I can hide,
my goods I cannot, and so less will be found—'Till the
Tax be over, I shall have as few goods in my shop as I
can—The gentleman shall buy dearer, and that Merchant
shall have it in his warehouse by him; and so your
woollen manufacture be put a stop to, and wool not sold,
which will come home to the gentleman—Barley will
not enable him to set up his farm; and says the Malster,
"I will have no stock by me," which in his hands is
ware of trade, and so it must rest in the farmer's hand—
Thinks that the nation will lose in manufacture, and the
husbandman in tillage; therefore would have stock in
Mr Garroway.] You tax money at interest—The
Merchant brings wares in, and is taxed; the Mercer
that sells is taxed, and the Salesman, when made up
into cloaths, and Taylor; in all these hands it is taxed,
and you pay it four times over—The last buyer pays
for all, and it recoils back upon you.
Mr Secretary Trevor.] If a Clothier have 100l. of
his own, he is taxed, but his debt considered; but if a
man have a moving stock, it must be left to the Commissioners for taxing of trades. The sum is not great;
6s. per cent. not so great as to change trade—You, by
the clause, clearly intend stock, and only stock, not in
part but in whole.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Intrinsic value is not taxed;
only chattles personal, not chattles real, as in leases.
Colonel Birch.] In Subsidy-tax one column is for land,
and the other for personal estate; but for a man to discover all he owes is a most destructive thing to trade.
Sir Tho. Lee.] "Over and above debts"—Thinks it a
most ruinous thing for every trader to discover his debts
—Poor men will pay for an imaginary credit—Trade will
be more easily discovered than money—Tax what you
will here, the Merchant cannot raise it abroad—Wool is
taxed, and corn, and that will have an effect upon the
farmer—We think to meet with the citizens, but we meet
with ourselves in it—Is not clear, but that the husbandman's corn in his barn is again to be taxed, and will
not be thought stock upon land—Trade abroad is driven
much upon barter—Would have English growth excepted.
Sir Gilbert Talbot.] Wool and corn were never taxed—
It is not 6s. per cent. at the worst, at four quarterly payments, and no man will, for that small sum, let his
money lie dead.
Sir Thomas Meres.] It will cause much disturbance,
and will bring little in—It is the gentlemens interest to
throw out this clause.
Colonel Birch.] The question is, Whether the personal estates shall pay? and it is the gentlemens interest
to keep it in—This is intended for a precedent for the
time to come, and if you will walk in this way, it is the
gentleman's interest to make it as equal as he can—Mens
shops must not be inventoried—Exempt this, and you
will lay all the burden on the land—If this be for a precedent, you have gone too far; for a Mercer, with 100l.
stock, lives better than a man of 10l. a year—Lay a
greater burden on land, and you sink the value two
years purchase more.
Sir William Coventry.] 6s. per cent. is no great sum;
but he does not consider that he that buys stock of barley has many accidents attend it of charge, together
with the interest of his money—Why should I do all this
hoarding for? After the Tax I will buy, and in the
mean time put my money to interest, which I may conceal; for if he lends it to a man to stock with, he will
take but 6 per cent. but covenant against taxes.
Sir Edmund Pooly.] Your trade these thirty years has
not found these objections, and wonders they should be
Mr Swynfin.] Finds there is no strict inquisition as inventories, but these are answered; for there is no such
thing in experience, as is alleged. Before, if a man
lived well, in good port, upon his trade, the Commissioners considered him accordingly, upon the ordinary reputation he bears in the place he lived in, and so proportioned the whole charge at some equality; and this
was no burden upon trade. But now, the assessor is upon
his oath, and no sum in gross, the whole coming from
the persons. If he be charged over, the tradesman must
show his debts, and discredit himself.—Oaths make all
taxes to be troublesome, and the same care must be as
in an inventory. They may be taxed the 6s. four times
over, as is alleged; so that value of goods must be raised,
or trade broken.—You never had the experience of this
before; if taxed upon remove of lands, you tax so many
Sir Thomas Clifford.] The three or four hundredth
part is not taxed, and so you come to a low value. A
man has but such an estate, and it is no matter whither
goods go, or from whence they come, they shall be no
more taxed—Go from Tower-hill to Tothill-street, and
not one shop in ten is worth 100l. What will that come
to, with the deductions?
Sir Charles Harbord.] In all subsidies that ever he remembers, there was never more than 18s. upon 100l.
which is 8s. at Subsidy rate, and this lower than ever—
You are not to look how a man is worth a thing, but
that he is worth it, and has a share in the proportion
of the government, and so must have his part in the tax.
Sir Thomas Clifford, to what Mr Gould said.] Forty
millions is a great matter, and wishes that the numbers of
people and wealth were greater—Knows not what he
means by "catching it into hands;" the Commissioners
are to assess it.
[To proceed to-morrow.]
Saturday, January 21.
A Bill for encouragement of the trade of Merchant-Adventurers was read the first time.
Colonel Birch.] The world is vying with you for this
manufacture of cloth; he that sells cheapest will get
most money—An interloper exported 52,000l. worth of
woollen manufacture into Holland.—Now, if your trade
be worse, it is because the Merchant must have his London and Country house, and his wife must go as fine
as his neighbour John's.
Mr Spry.] Presents this Bill from the town Birch serves
for, and wonders he should speak against it. Here is no
putting out a 50,000l. trader, if he were a Merchant,
and for such this Bill prays. The Bill prays that no
Vintner may be a Merchant, for then he will make the
wine sell at what rate he pleases.—Linnen-drapers have
spoiled the trade of linnen, and the engrossers of oyls in
the town of Plymouth—Is not against the Hamburgh company, but would have Merchants trade only—The Tuckers and Weavers, to be made Factors in Holland, do the
business for Holland Merchants—One Tucker at Exeter
entered 10,000l. worth of goods in one day—The question is, Whether you will give the trade to Hollanders,
or keep it yourselves, which you will do, if you suffer
these mechanicks to trade.
[The question being put, that the Bill be read a second time,
it passed in the Negative.]
In a Grand Committee, on the Subsidy-Bill. [Offices.]
Colonel Birch.] Would have promotions added to offices, which will comprehend Canonries and Prebends,
&c. A poor man may pay for his 10l. per ann. and a
pay nothing for 100l. per ann.
Sir John Knight.] Since we have had Presbyterian and
Independent promotions, would have the one taxed, and
the other left out.
Sir John Birkenhead.] If you would have such promotions taxed, Birch about ten years since (fn. 2) might have
been taxed—You have taxed the Clergy in two or three
capacities; and this gentleman, because he could not
keep his Church lands then, would have them taxed
Colonel Birch.] Would have all the trees in the forest
cropped alike—They had nothing done upon them, but
had the fruits of twenty years.—The Promotions are envied enough already; would not have them more by being exempted.
Mr Crouch.] As the promotions have had twenty years
profits, so they have had twenty years sufferings.—They
pay as all the men in England pay.
Sir Thomas Clifford.] Thought it in jest, but now sees
it in earnest, and the Church has reason to take it in
earnest. It is God's inheritance—Many outlived the
rebellion and faction, which could not extinguish their
zeal—Is the Church under the envy of the nation? It
is one step to expose the Church lands to sale—These
evil communications corrupt good manners—But as to
the Bill, it may be some may escape by their fines, but
the tenants pay for it, and it does not escape your hands.
Mr Ford.] They are not envied by good men; and
they had better be envied than pitied by Birch.
Colonel Birch.] In land the promotions are not taxed,
and moved only that the burden might be equal.
Sir Tho. Lee.] It is the late times only that brought in
this way of taxes; but for profits and perquisites, would
have 3d. in 2s. allowed them for charge in executing
Sir Tho. Meres.] The Clergy that are newly come in
are scarce able to live, and one third part of them is
changed and dead, so you will hit but few.
Colonel Birch.] Would know where the Archdeacon
of Middlesex is taxed? No where.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Moves for a deduction of onethird part for mens expences, hospitality, and debts;
in this way it will have some latitude—Would not have
us give an errant Land-Tax, instead of a Subsidy.
Colonel Sandys.] Would know how this third part
can come up to answer our promises to his Majesty.
Sir Thomas Clifford.] It was once a Land-Tax in masquerade; so said by a gentleman; and it is now, by deduction, brought in masquerade—The House agreed to
the 12d.—Every man is sensible of the occasion—You
never knew that 70,000l. was voted, and you deducted
it to 50,000l.
Sir Thomas Meres.] In a Subsidy it was always abated;
he cannot say that more cannot be said, but less may (by
order)—The last question was about offices, the outworks;
this is our main fort—The gentleman is an officer, in
many things without a fee; so that a gentleman of 700l.
a year, by these chargeable offices, receives not 600l.
Mr Attorney Finch.] No man's land will be charged
till the clear value be deducted—A man may deduct
one shilling per pound for every charge of interest money; but to take away a third is the way to bring the
Bill to nothing. This gives the King one day 18d. and
another day 8d.—Whether this be suitable to the liberality of the House, and their engagement, leaves it to
Sir Richard Temple.] If any man be against this sum,
he ought to show you how the money can be supplied
another way—By Land-Tax, the House meant not a
monthly Tax—It will justify ourselves to our country,
that two millions here is but 12d. in the pound, to pay
those that would endeavour to bring you into the mist—
It will not be acceptable to the country, that you do not
let the burden be borne with an equal shoulder—No
Subsidy since the Conquest mentions any thing but
deductions of debts—All upon oath, in Queen Mary's
time—Henry VIII. and Edward IV. all upon oath.
Sir John Duncombe.] If this be less than what you first
proposed it would raise, there will be no end of giving.
Mr Garroway.] The Debate is, 12d. or 8d.—We are
at liberty to make alterations, by agreement, to any part,
and if so, then to the sum—"Supplying the King's occasions" was our vote—Foreign commodities, you know,
voted 400,000l. a year —If the debt be paid, the pressure is not great upon us—The vote was, present yearly
value—You cannot under eight months time set out a
navy—You cannot now, with all the hands you can get,
prepare a navy by April, and therefore the present necessity cannot be pleaded.
Sir Edw. Dering.] The reasons of abatements of offices
are not applicable to this question—The vote computed
this Bill at near 800,000l. the whole bulk of this must
lie upon your land; stock will not raise above 100,000l.
The product at 12d. will be 600,000l.—The present revenue of England is not above 12 millions per ann. 15 millions of acres, profitable at a noble an acre. Tanti est
quanti vendi potest—Knows of no man that will farm this
Mr Garroway.] We give this, not in consideration of
the Navy, but merely as a gift to the King—Desires still
that the Navy may not be named, for it cannot be provided at this time of the year.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Hopes he shall never hear it said
here, that the necessities of the King are above the abilities of the people; and therefore moves for the lesser
Mr Swynfin.] Lands will fare worse than any part of
the Bill; for in offices you have allowed a third part, and
in goods, but none for lands—Dares a man help himself
by discovering what debt is upon his lands, and having
it called in by his creditor?
Sir Fretchville Holles.] All that are to be set out now
are new ships; 14,000 men must man the fleet; there
are twenty sail now on the stocks, and at present the
ships want nothing but graiving and rigging, which will
be quickly done.
Sir John Monson.] Is glad to hear that all is provided
but victuals, there being but thirty ships wanting.—The
seamen are paid when they come home, therefore no such
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Never so bare in the stores, but
so many may be set out; but will you leave the stores
empty upon any emergency?—Half in half difference between a man of war and a merchantman, in all things
that belong to it.
Mr Boscawen.] There is nothing that you can depend
upon at any time more than the land, therefore would
have that favoured.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Upon another fund it will bring in
the money sooner—You shall at Midsummer have but a
bare 3d. but by the other way of but two payments,
you shall have 4d. and it is easier for the people. The
other way, whether you will or no, the gentlemen will
bate in the country. The two-thirds they will fairly raise.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Proposes to comprehend all.
They would have 12d. stand, but, sub modo—He would
have 12d. stand as it is in the Bill, without modification.
Mr Attorney Finch.] The matter is understood, and
whether by a paraphrase we should distinguish; it is not
fair to put a question, which all agree to—The fair question is, Whether there shall be an addition to the question?
[To proceed on Monday.]
Monday, January 23.
In a Grand Committee, [on the Subsidy-Bill.] Mines of Coal,
Lead, and Tin.
Mr Boscawen.] That of mines is a lottery, and the
profit but small, he thinks not above 50l. and the King
has a fifth part—Where one gets, a hundred lose, and if
they do but make wages, they think they do well; for
the people that work consume the provision of the country—How much tin you bring up, so much silver, and
so much addition to the stock of the whole nation—It
encourages iron, and smiths, and other manufactures—
They go forty or fifty fathom deep, and sometimes lose
all their work by starting aside—Seeing that they are so
many industrious bees that work not for themselves, so
much as for the nation, hopes you will favour them.
Serjeant Maynard.] Who shall pay this money? The
owner, it may be, is a poor man; that when men have
been at a great charge, if any thing retrospect to that
charge, the whole profit raises but 11,000l. a year.
Without regard to the charges, this will be a great discouragement to the country, and leaves it to you.
Colonel Birch.] Would have no persons escape in this
Bill, and none over pressed.—That I shall pay for
40l. a year, and another, with some thousands by him,
shall pay nothing, is unequal—Thinks to the plea, "that
it is a lottery, or an adventure;" then the merchant adventurers must pay nothing—Would not put it on the
day-labourer, but on the owner of the land, all charges
Sir Charles Harbord.] Tin mines are not farmed, most
cannot be farmed, and it will be a discouragement to the
Mr Clarke.] There are several instances of persons that
have laid out much money, 10 and 12,000l. and great
losers upon it.
Mr Attorney Finch.] It is said "he had no directions
for this clause, and that mines were not formerly charged;"
then they have the more reason to be charged now. It
is true there are great hazards, and it is as true there are
great gains. It may be he that has bought land, knows
not whether he has a good title; must he not pay?—
Much money comes from them, and he hopes some will
come to the King.
Sir Robert Howard.] The land is now fixed, and so
mines cannot be favoured in gross, as in the monthly
tax—1000l. is given for a supposed thing, and there is
no equality in a known and an unknown thing. Will
you say that the whole sum shall be considered from the
beginning, or that year? These are the most contingent
things in nature; tin and lead pay custom also, and
should the mines be laid down for one year, you raise a
mutiny, a little civil war. Some in ten years get nothing, others get into a vein the first. The Miners are
lusty bodied men, and by this discontent can do no good.
You cannot do much for the King—Would have the
Sir Edward Dering.] Rather they lose nineteen than
the King have one, by letting them go down, is not a
Sir Thomas Clifford.] Would have them left out of the
Bill; and it was never in any Land-Tax, and yet the
Commissioners did charge them with yearly value—Many
go in joint stocks, that know not their gains till they
have sold—All rents pay by the Bill—Your ancestors
have done this, that instead of charging them, exempt
them in the Bill of Militia—Tin is under the Warden of
the Stannaries, and they have Parliaments, which take off
the tedious suits at Westminster-ball.—No commodity is of
such consequence as tin, all over Europe, Asia, Africa,
&c. Many of the small vessels of Devon go to Alexandria—If the profit be certain, the King's may—The
yearly value may be rated.
Mr Gould.] Makes a narrative of the business of the
mines of Mendip Hills—Wishes those, who are for
charging of mines, may be Commissioners and Searchers.
Sir Robert Atkins.] Land is improved by great charge,
and you consider not any thing of that. We had need
of all mines to help us to raise this great sum, and would
have them taxed.
Mr Waller.] It is said the King has 10,000l. a year
Customs, together with what the nation spends; and the
places where mines are, the best returns of England for
money. As for the uncertainty, that of the farmer is
Mr Ford.] The trade has been held up for many ages,
and that is an argument for the certainty.
Mr Gould.] Waller argues from the Customs; but it is
affirmed that three-fourths is the labour of the men, and
but one-fourth a fund for you. If a real profit, that's
a rent; but if you will tax the mine barely, you must
direct your Commissioners how to do it.
Sir John Pettus.] 9997l. to the King, for Custom, the
Sir Nicholas Carew.] If you will exempt his land that
bears barley, you may exempt mines, parks, warrens,
Sir Thomas Clifford.] Wool is not taxed in the first
holder, only in the buyer; but this clause will make the
mines taxed with great inequality and partiality.
Mr Henry Coventry.] Serves for a country (fn. 3) where there
are both lead and coals, and would not have land pay all,
and mines none. If you take in every thing, will you
leave out a thing of so great consideration? Every thing
has accidents as well as this, as charge of improvement.
You tax according to the present value—In Sweden, the
main income is copper; the owners have but one part,
and the King three. This is another kind of tax than
ours; for wool is forbidden to be exported, lead is not—
The clear gains are what you intend by the Bill.
Sir Charles Harbord.] In Sweden the King has no other
ways of getting, and cannot hold comparison with us.
[To proceed to-morrow.]
Tuesday, January 24.
In a Grand Committee [on the Subsidy-Bill.] On the Paragraph of Commissioners.
Sir Thomas Lee.] A Commissioner created by Act of
Parliament, it is but reasonable, should be punished
for refusing to act, only by a clause in the Bill; else the
Attorney-General may exhibit an information, by another Law, for not acting in the King's Commission.
Wednesday, January 25.
The Lords Amendments to the Bill to prevent malicious
Maiming and Wounding were read the second time.
[The first Amendment was read and agreed to. This Debate
was on the second.]
Sir Wm. Coventry.] "From the time the King's royal
assent shall be recorded in the Lords Journal"—There
may be some criticising upon that at the tryal of the
Sir Charles Harbord.] The Judges have determined
that the Lords Journal is but a record ad hoc propositum
—Would have the thing so clear, that the persons may
not be capable of bail.
Col. Birch.] This "recording" is a new clause, never
heard of before in any Act of Parliament. What if they
never enter it?—It is usual that to our darling Bills the
Lords add some clogs—When they command any of
their paper Journal to be enrolled, then it is a record—
The old way and mode of the Lords Journal is, to appoint a Committee to order what part of their paper
Journal shall be enrolled—The Lords may urge this
against us, when we least suspect it.
Mr Garroway.] Would not have the overt reason expressed, because the Lords may contend it—Would have
it "fifteen days after Royal Assent."
Serjeant Maynard.] In all Acts, unless a certain time
be put, it is understood from the first day of Parliament.
In a legal sense the Lords Journal is no record, and
how shall the Judges take notice of it? Besides, it
lies in the power of their Clerk to enter or not, and so
make it, or not make it, an Act.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Our reason may be, "from time
of Royal Assent," for Journals may perish. The King's
assent is notorious, and always matter of record—Would
have the words as little offensive, and with as much reverence to the Lords Journal, as may be.
Mr Swynfin.] Possibly the Lords might foresee, that
Acts begin from the date of the Session, and therefore
they put in the clause of recording. The question is,
Whether legally you can take the entry in the Lords
Journal for record? How rationally can they take notice of Royal Assent, unless expressed in the Bill?
Sir Job Charlton.] If you disagree with the Lords,
you cannot qualify the disagreement, but you disagrce
with these amendments.—Knows not whether by this
consequence we shall have any Acts of Parliament at all
—Would agree with those additions.
Sir Robert Steward.] Actual Royal Assent is matter of
fact, and must have an averment. This Law, it may
be, two hundred years hence, may depend on the averment of the time of Royal Assent.
Mr Attorney Finch.] The fixing of the time may enforce the two Houses to apply to his Majesty to ascertain the time. An indorsement upon the Bill, of the time
of Royal Assent, may be a remedy.
The Speaker.] When a thing of this nature is, Mr
Hackwell, in his book, says, "That before any thing so
novel as this is, a conference be desired."
Serjeant Maynard.] In the Bill for taking away the
Star-Chamber, and the Habeas Corpus, the Lords were
convinced that their amendments were prejudicial; but
how to retract, the Lords knew not. We made amendments, and the Lords agreed to them—Would not go
upon new ways—It is clear that the date of all Acts
is from the beginning of the Parliament, and no averment can be against a record, therefore would have a day
Mr Attorney Montagu.] If we may believe what's
said without doors, the Lords intend this clause of recording, and the Royal Assent, to be synonymous.
Sir Thomas Lee.] This may have effect upon the persons, if any good estate descend upon these persons fifty
years hence; therefore would not have an Act of Parliament depend upon an averment, which, it may be,
cannot be obtained.
Mr Seymour.] In this question [there is] no such difficulty as is proposed; you seldom send a Bill to the Lords
without amendments; you are not so straitly bound up
to your amendments, but that upon conference you may
Sir Robert Atkins.] The substance we agree to; to the
circumstance, as to this or that day, we agree not—We
may agree, but with an addition—Moves for a conference, to acquaint them with the difficulties we are
under, and to tell them as to substance we agree, but
not to circumstance, which may beget a free conference.
[The second amendment was postponed, and a Committee
appointed to consider of it, and of some expedient thereupon.]
Reported from the Committee for Reasons against the Lords
"The uncertainty of the time in those who are parties in the
"Act, their not seeing the Journal."
"From particular occasions to make general remedies."
[A Conference was desired the next day.]
[Jan. 26, omitted.]
Friday, January 27.
In a Grand Committee, [on the Subsidy-Bill.] Oath of Assessors.
Mr Dowdeswell.] Is there a Judge, Justice, or Juror,
but upon oath? Can a way be found more safe? If two
sisters do not agree to a partition, nothing but a Jury
upon oath can do it; not cousins, nor brothers, though
ever so equal, can do it without an oath; but would
not have Assessors sworn in their own cases.
Mr Swynfin.] An Oath was to be taken, truly to swear
according to the grant, viz. considering his port, children, debts, and servants, to discover what above all this
his lands were worth; and there were Subsidy-books, to
find out men, and their land, and the persons; but in
this oath in the Bill, here is no consideration at all—
Would have the oath laid aside.
Sir Richard Temple.] In Henry VIII's time, it brought
the Subsidy from 16,000l. to 100,000l. All officers were
upon oath.—43 Eliz. "all levies for the poor shall be
upon the pound rate," and yet that not unequal. [He
was set right by Sir Thomas Lee, that the Overseers of
the Poor were not upon oath.]
Mr Milward.] "Taxed according to the sparable part;"
but they must know the intrinsic value, else how shall
they ever know the sparable part? If they were upon
their oaths, what was the sparable part, the same reason
holds now; whereas the Assessors are to be sworn.
That being omitted, neighbour will swear against neighbour.
Mr Dowdeswell.] Confesses that no Juryman shall stand,
if excepted against, when relations are concerned; but in
this case, being ad informandam conscientiam, sons, servants, and relations, may be admitted to swear.
Sir Thomas Meres.] They found the ill use of oaths in
former days, and they were never used since.
Sir John Duncombe.] Would have it in the power of
Commissioners to give an oath upon their discretion, but
would not have it general to all. It is possible they will
give it general, but would make that scruple himself,
that where he suspects a man would forswear himself, he
would rather pay his fine, than give him the oath.
[To proceed to-morrow.]
[Jan. 28, omitted.]
[Adjourned to Tuesday.]
Tuesday, January 31.
Mr Howe brought in a Bill of Registers, in the nature of a
Mount of Piety (fn. 4) , which he withdrew by leave of the House.
Sir Thomas Clifford.] The Bill is not coercive upon any
man. Why are Scotland's lands so dear, and England's so cheap, though but a hedge parts them, but because of Registers? The same of copyhold land, and
Colonel Birch.] You take away Bankers, and you set
up nothing in their place where men may take up money.
Suppose a man makes a lease, to commence six months
after his decease, and the next day mortgages it, how
can all the Law and skill in England avoid it?
Resolved, That the House will resume the Debate concerning
a public Registry and Perpetuities on Monday next.
[Feb. 1, and 3, omitted.]