Wednesday, October 20.
In a Grand Committee of Religion. Sir Charles Harbord in
Col. Birch complained of several books printed, containing
Sir Philip Warwick.] Pulpits speak to grave men,
but the playhouses to young men. Would have them
considered, as likewise erecting churches in the new
It was moved by Sir Thomas Littleton, and seconded by Mr
Powle, that a Bill be brought in for educating the children of
the Royal Family in the Religion established by law, and that no
Romish Priest may have access to them.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Would have no part of Religion
changed, but by Act of Parliament—Something of yesterday's Debate makes him a little jealous—Religion being
from the primitive times, but "confirmed by Law,"
the Brachium Seculare, would have it "established"
by Law, that the thing of dispensing may never be again
Mr Sawyer.] The motion is but for a declaratory Law,
as the Petition of Right, the thing being established by
the Statute of Hen. VIII.
Mr Sacheverell.] Would not have it so done, as not to
declare that 'tis your right now.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Not one Lawyer of the House
could say, that the Declaration was Law, when debated
here in the House; therefore would have this declaratory Law, to quiet our minds.
Mr Vaughan.] Would have it declaratory backwards,
that no such Law was ever dispensible.
Sir Charles Harbord left the Chair; and information was given
the House, that Lord Cavendish had caused a Paper to be
posted up at Whitehall-Gate, and Westminster-hall, by his sootman, to this effect, "That Thomas Howard, who subscribed the
Letter, was a coward."—'Twas said, that the occasion of this
was from some reports that Lord Cavendish had heard, that Mr
Howard should say, "That his Lordship knew of the Letter
some time before the Parliament met, and did not call Mr Howard to an account for it."
Mr Sacheverell complained on Lord Cavendish's behalf, but the
Compiler could not well hear him.
Mr Secretary Williamson gave this account—He was commanded by the King to cause the Earl Marshal to enquire into the
business. Mr Frowde, son to Sir Philip Frowde, was said to have
taken down the said posted-up Paper, who was not to be found.
He came to him, and he asked him, whether he had any quarrel
with Lord Cavendish? He confessed the taking down the Paper,
but denied the words he should say of Lord Cavendish, &c.—
Then Williamson told him, he was commanded by the King,
not to farther engage Lord Cavendish. Frowde said, "he had
no quarrel with Lord Cavendish, and what he did was out of
respect to him."
Sir Thomas Lee.] If this gentleman had no quarrel with
Lord Cavendish, perhaps that Lord may have with him.
In this kind of paper-war, he fears family quarrels;
therefore would have some gentlemen propose a way to
extricate you out of the thing.
Mr Swynfin.] The honour of the House is to be preferred before any particular Member—When quarrels
may arise from persons to families, knows no way to
prevent it, but by laying hands on them both. In the
mean time, would have an engagement of no farther
proceeding in the matter from this noble Lord.
Mr Vaughan.] In this case, 'tis regular to send to the
Lord Keeper, to take security of them both for quiet
Mr Garroway.] You have declared the Paper to be
scandalous, and fears it a little too hasty to put the thing
to another way of decision—He knows not what it may
farther come to. Moves, therefore, that, though you
have appointed a day for Mr Howard's appearance,
it may be a shorter day—left it should reflect, in consequence, on every individual man in the House, and the
whole House. If any gentleman can, let him find out a more
tender way, as sending for them both to compound the
business; and be both under your care, till it be done.
Mr Stockdale.] Moves to recommend it specially to the
King, that he would please to quiet the matter.
Sir Charles Harbord.] Thinks that what Frowde did
was a very safe thing, and he not to blame. Believes
that no man dares attack a Member—Frowde has engaged, and Howard also, who will be here to-morrow.
If you will have him come, he will, though he should
die at the door.
The Speaker.] All will bear him witness how tender
he is of the honour of the house. The best way to secure
your Members is, not to suffer them to do injuries; and
he must acquaint you with what he knows. He knows
that Lord Cavendish posted Mr Howard for a coward.
Col. Birch.] By how much the more Lord Cavendish
is esteemed here, you cannot do a better thing than
showing justice. To come rightly to the bottom, the
House must know what the Paper contains. Do right
within doors, and you will stop wrong the better without doors.
Sir Philip Warwick.] Notwithstanding his great respect to Lord Cavendish, yet would not have you adjourn, till some Order be taken in it.
Mr Devereux. (fn. 1) ] Gave an account of the Paper.
Mr Cheney.] Would confine Lord Cavendish, in the
Mr Bertue.] Would send for Frowde, to see the Paper, and then would know whether Lord Cavendish owns
it, before you proceed; as you did with Mr Howard.
Mr Stockdale.] Perhaps neither Howard nor Cavendish
owns the Papers.
Mr Swynfin.] 'Tis as plain as any thing can be; you
need not put the Question to Lord Cavendish; but the
matter is, what you should do for your own honour to
prevent quarrels. When this was first started about
Howard, heard it then said, "that whatever seemed
to provoke quarrels must be set down." Your meaning was, that Lord Cavendish should no farther proceed—Knows not what provocation Lord Cavendish
has had since—Knows not the laws of quarrels, as were
told you yesterday (by Wheeler). You may take such
an engagement from Lord Cavendish as may amount to
Sir Thomas Lee.] Confesses that he believes Lord Cavendish has, in some measure, broken your Privileges, and
would have the Serjeant take him into custody; neither
will it be by that remedied, but by an Address to the
King, after you have done your part, by confinement
of your Member.
Col. Birch.] Is of opinion that Lord Cavendish has done
a great fault, being enjoined by the House to do nothing
of tendency to farther quarrel—Unless better reasons be
given for this Paper than he hears already, would
have Lord Cavendish committed.
Sir Edward Baynton.] Lord Cavendish has been here,
and has heard the Debate. Would have the Speaker
ask him, whether he has any thing to say to it, and then
Mr Garroway.] Would preserve your Privilege to
the loss of his hand. Would have it understood that this
commitment is not in order to Lord Cavendish's coming
to the Bar on his knees.
Mr Powle.] The commitment of your Member is
not for his confinement, but security, therefore would
have him confined till farther Order.
Mr Vaughan.] Commitment is not for his security,
Mr Garroway.] His commitment then must be solely
for breach of Privilege, and on no other account.
Mr Boscawen.] You may proceed without asking
Lord Cavendish, whether he has any thing to say. He
may possibly say something to his own prejudice.
Col. Titus.] Any man that knows his conversation,
knows his obligations to Lord Cavendish's family. He
believes if Lord Cavendish had any thing to say, he would
have done it before now, being present at the Debate.
Having said nothing in his own justification, and having proceeded in what he did after your Order, therefore
would have him committed.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The foundations of the House you
are not masters of, to dispense with, as reading of a
Bill three times. You must ask Lord Cavendish, what
he has to say for himself.
Mr Garroway.] He is not obliged to make any answer, if you ask him—But, in voting him to commitment, without asking him, you take away the greatest
liberty you have.
Sir Robert Carr.] Since Lord Cavendish has been present at the Debate, you have broken your Order, as
much as you can already; therefore would not ask him
Mr Sawyer.] In all this Debate, you are upon matter of enquiry only, and then the Member may be present to give you information of fact, but when you give
an opinion, he must withdraw. Some Members have
told you of a Paper, but none that Lord Cavendish
Sir John Ernly.] Your Member is at liberty to answer, or not. Possibly his answer may be as much as
his life may be worth.
The Speaker then said to Lord Cavendish,] The House has
been informed that you have broken the Privilege of the House,
and would know what you have to say before you withdraw.
Lord Cavendish.] He shall ever have great respect to
the Privilege of this House, and shall be satisfied with
what the House shall determine concerning him. And
Col. Birch.] If any man has any thing to say, why
this Lord should not be secured, let him speak; and, in
the next place, Where? He moves for the Tower.
Mr Garroway.] In Howard's case you sent to him,
to know whether he owned the paper, or no; who returned you a dissatisfactory answer; in the mean time,
you obliged this Lord not to proceed in the business.
You are informed that he has set up a Paper; you
have asked him what he has to say; he has given
you no answer; therefore for that would send him to
Mr Sawyer.] Sir John Fagg was sent to the Tower,
for proceeding in the Lords House, after this House had
possessed themselves of his business (fn. 2) . And for Lord
Cavendish to proceed, whilst the matter was depending
in this House, is a breach of Privilege.
Sir Eliab Harvey.] Lord Cavendish has not broken
promise, for that lasted not till Monday, but the matter
being under the House's cognizance is the thing.
Sir Tho. Meres.] Breach of "Order" is of large sense
in Privilege, but it is a less word than breach of "Privilege," and would have it run so in the Commitment.
Mr Sacheverell.] Would have the Commitment "for
being charged with the Paper, and giving the House no
The Order was read, viz. That Lord Cavendish and Sir Thomas
Meres be enjoined not to prosecute any quarrel against Mr Howard, or to send, or accept, any challenge in order thereto, without acquainting the House.
Col. Titus.] Lord Cavendish, in having said nothing
for himself, satisfies him, that he put up the Paper, and in
that he has broken the Order of the House, and for that
would have him committed to the Tower.
Ordered, That Lord Cavendish be sent to the Tower, for his
breach of the Privilege [of this House] in prosecuting a quarrel against Mr Howard, whilst the matter was depending before the
House; and that the Speaker do issue out his Warrant to the
Serjeant to convey Lord Cavendish to the Tower, and deliver him
to the Lieutenant, there to remain till farther orders.
Thursday, October 21.
The Bill for appropriating the Customs [to the use of the
Navy was read the second time.]
Sir John Duncombe.] One half of the Revenues is engaged; the Excise anticipated, and becomes useless to
the Crown—It may so fall out that the new Duty may expire, and what will the Crown subsist upon, if you appropriate the Customs ? Though it be a good Act you
are doing, hopes you will find out some way to put the
Crown at more ease, before you pass this Bill.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] This appropriates 400,000l. per
ann. 150,000l. of it is little anticipated, and free, for the
King "to buy Bread" as is said, and whether that will
not do any extraordinary occasion, he leaves any man to
judge. The rest of the Revenue will be sufficient for
guards and garrisons.
Sir Charles Wheeler.] Is as much as any man for appropriating tonnage and poundage to the use of the Navy,
but whenever the King shall do it, 'tis a great grace and
favour. When the King departs from any of his trust
for our safety, 'tis a great consideration—We trust the King
with Peace and War, and when he advises with us, he
parts with his Prerogative. Therefore would consider
what will support the Crown with the rest of the Revenue.
As the King does this for our consideration, so would
have us do for him what shall preserve him.
Sir Thomas Meres.] As for necessity, you know who
creates it. A million, or two millions, the same argument, "for necessity." Though we may bear other necessities, without this appropriating the Customs to the
use of the Navy, the necessity of the Navy cannot be
Sir John Knight.] Instead of giving the King, you
take away from him by this Bill, for the Navy requires
sometimes a great sum, and sometimes a less, as War
and Peace happen to be. And you do by this Bill appropriate in all times alike. One said "that the expences of the Government are greater than the Nation can
bear"—Those great salaries, given to several Commissioners, are a great charge, and would have them
Sir Eliab Harvey.] The debt upon the Customs advanced but 350,000l. which will wear out.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Knight complains of "excessive
salaries;" he knows nothing of it, and can say little of
it, but since we see such malversations in the Customs, and
all put upon the King, we ought not to endure that. We
are told of 1,300,000l. Revenue in the Treasurer's account, and some say more—If that be so, there's
900,000l. to spare for the King's expences. We know
that all the world arm at sea more than heretofore—
When to morrow we come to enquire into the Fleet, hopes
we shall find the government better provided, than in
the anticipations of the Revenue. They have told us
they can do it, and will do it, but 'tis not done. Moves
that the Bill be committed.
Sir William Coventry.] Knows not why we should look
into accounts. Is sorry the King has told you so
much of "not so good Husbandry as might have been"
—Therefore would not meddle with accounts.
Mr Powle.] The accounts were justly refused yesterday, because offered to divert the Debate. 'Tis objected
"that the King wants bread"—Then appropriate another
part of the Revenue to the Houshold, which expence, he
believes, has not exceeded 150,000l. per ann. But it
seems a prodigy to him, that having no war, and such a
Revenue, there should be such debts. In H. VII. and
H. VIII's time there were more Acts of appropriations
made, than in any King's reign, and the prerogative
then at the highest. But great part of the Revenue now
runs beside the true channel, in pensions, and petty
farms. If there be any other unnecessary expences, as of
guards and garrisons, this House never countenanced
them, and he hopes never will. They may be retrenched.
Sir John Duncombe.] Appeals whether, when anticipations were debated, he did not first offer his accounts.
He would have brought the accounts to be fully and fairly examined.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The cause of refusal of Duncombe's
papers was, not to unravel all to lose time—Ever thought
that giving the King more than the nation could bear,
would ruin the nation. Has often taken the King's revenue to be 1,200,000l. and to make over measure
100,000l. 'Tis said, in pensions, 150,000l. Every LandTax you give, at this rate, will be called a Revenue, and
you must continue it. You had not been troubled with
this Bill now, but for the King's asking you money, the
last Session, for Ships, the kingdom being in danger,
and a thing not to be deferred. This Bill is therefore necessary, that you be not always asked for money to defend
yourselves, having given this money (the Customs)
for this purpose. And sees no danger the King should
"want bread" as is told you. We are told "that there's
always spent yearly, upon the Navy, 400,000l." and yet
here is no Navy. Therefore we would but appropriate
what they may say is spent yearly upon the Navy already.
Sir John Ernly.] He is unfit to speak against appropriations to the Navy, being a Commissioner of the
Navy. But fears that if the King be put to necessity—
You take away what is not anticipated, and leave the
King to live upon what is anticipated—The King may
"want bread" as the Navy biscuit.
Col. Birch.] This is but doing what the King most delights in, next "his bread," and what you do by this
Bill, is but in plainer English than before, when you
granted the Customs for the Navy, and guard of the seas.
'Tis but letting the pensions stay, which they ought to do,
and may well be. He asserts that four pounds a head, per
month, will do the business of the Navy, Ordnance and
all, and that it has cost the King seven pounds a
The Speaker.] Asserting, that when he declares, it
ought to be abided by,
Sir Tho. Lee.] Said there is no infallibility in your chair.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Has observed, in former Speakers
time, that, upon errors, they have retracted and mended;
has not known this Speaker do so.
Mr Garroway.] If you declare a thing positively, and it
must be abided by, you may give a Question as you please;
the Yea's and No's are at your disposal. The Orders, the
House are judges of, and you put the Question only, Yea,
Sir William Coventry.] Submits to any gentleman in
the Orders of the House. Remembers it frequently, in
the Lord Chief Baron Turner's time, (when Speaker) debated, who must go out, upon division of the House, the
Yeas or the No's, and whether the Speaker is in the
right, or not. 'Tis necessary that all doubts must be determined, but the Authority of deciding them is not
lodged in any one man, but the House only, and no
Authority is left in the Speaker. If a Debate arises, who
must go out, and the Speaker sees the sense of the
House against what he has declared, supposes such a modesty in him, and disposition as to pay deference to it.
Has heard say, that going out is a disadvantage, but
will not say the reason generally given for it. Some
imagine five or six difference in the number; you decide it, and the Vote is registered, and we complain to
you, and are not like to have redress. We may give
Millions by it. Is very unwilling to see you, Mr Speaker,
in the wrong, when we may pay so dear for it.
The Bill was ordered to be committed.
A Bill was read [the second time] to prevent the levying of
any Tax, Tillage, or Subsidy, but by Parliament (fn. 3) . It enacts,
"that the Subject is not compelled to any such charge, but by
Parliament, and in no other manner, nor for longer time.
Goods imported or exported not declared, illegal,—void and of
no effect—Lawful to refuse any such Duty—Not to be summoned
by the Privy Council for so refusing. And if by any Order such
money is levied, for any end whatsoever, and being thereof legally convicted, judged guilty of High Treason. If imprison
er compel, guilty of High Treason. The Act to be publickly
read at the Sessions and Assizes once a Year, and recorded in the
King's Bench and Court of Exchequer."
Serjeant Maynard.] Likes not these great penalties of
Treason. Many laws of that kind have not had so good
execution when penalties are so high.—Would have some
other penalty than that of Treason.
Sir John Duncombe.] "May refuse and withstand"—
Whether may he defend himself, as if one came to rob
him?—"May call the assistance of the Sheriff"—Consider whether 'tis not a great inconvenience to give such
a power. Thinks the laws already strong enough—
Would have the Committee consider of them.
Mr Vaughan.] Since the stop of the Exchequer, where
a man has as much right to make use of his money,
and call for it, 'tis no wonder, after so high a violation
of property, that such a penalty is put into this Bill—
Would commit it.
Mr Finch.] No point of our liberty is dearer to us than
that of our money; with it we lose our liberty—Inconveniences in relation to the assessment of it—"The
person guilty of Treason." The consequence is plain;
you appoint Sessors for the money you give here; if
they levy sixpence more then by Act, they are guilty
of High Treason. Next, he knows not how usual it
has been to call the Sheriff; which is, in effect, levying
of War—Would alter the crime. 'Tis very grievous
to make the penalty of High Treason extend not only
to the persons offending, but to their innocent posterity.
Lord Coke advises Parliaments, "That if they enact a
new felony, it should not extend to corruption of blood."
Has heard more instances of the King's mercy, than of
any since the foundation of the Government. Estates
have formerly made men criminal. If the fathers have
eaten four grapes, let not the childrens teeth be set on
edge. Clipping of money, and refusing the Oath of Supremacy—Excepts all manner of forfeitures, as well real
as personal, by the party offending. Would have the
Sir Harbottle Grimstone, Master of the Rolls.] None
are so little read that know not this of raising money,
without law, to be our right already—Laws have produced an equal balance between Sovereignty and Oppression, but what has been done may be done again—
Has heard some speak of free giving, but have not provided for well disposing of it. This that is to be our
great security, (our Ships) was the most malicious
Counsel ever given by man (he hopes by no Englishman; they might have sent to your house, or my house,
as well as the bankers.) Such invitations and proclamations to bring money into the Exchequer. We are
but the peoples Trustees—The Bill may be thought
out of the road—But for the punishment, would
have no man plead ignorance upon great breach of
laws. Pray God you be never put to it!—They do
the King best service, that resist and oppose these impositions. Sometimes penalties are not proportionable
to crimes, but knows not a penalty proportionable to
this offence. What is the difference betwixt breach of
property, and slavery? Would have the Bill committed.
Mr Garroway.] Was it ever known that you may
not defend your own houses, and castles, from violation?
In all the world this is the fashion, and hopes that we shall
not innovate here. If you may not hinder a few men
from coming to levy money, they will gather more,
and be too hard for the county magistrate, called to
your assistance. If yet there be any scruple, the Bill
may go to a Committee to be mended. There is no
snare laid for any man in the Bill; 'tis a protection to
all we have. The penalty, being to meet with great
persons, cannot be too big.
Sir Job Charlton.] Is glad to hear that no man opposes
the Bill. You cannot provide too great penalties for men
who maliciously do raise money. But as the Bill is penned, you will not get a sessor to raise the money you
give. The Bill is for what is passed—For fire-hearths,
there is a doubt amongst learned men, and would well
Mr Sawyer.] Takes the Bill to be but declaratory
of the Common Law, and only for fencing and bounding
that Law.—Would commit it.
Mr Sacheverell,] 'Tis not a bigger penalty than what
is given in several laws of Queen Elizabeth. Agree that
it is your right, and it cannot be bounded too hard.
The forfeitures arising limited to the use of the King's
Ships, and maintaining his forces. 'Tis fit that "the penalty, to an assessor, levying money, knowingly against
law," should be in; but it will not touch him, because
he has directions from the Commissioners.
The Bill was ordered to be committed.
Friday, October 22.
In a grand Committee on the building more ships. Sir Charles
Harbord in the Chair.
Sir John Cotton.] Princes may be mistaken, Councils
may err, but the King cannot do ill. Three things
hinder supply. 1st, "The fear that what they give may be
be spent in luxury." The character now of a brave
man is, that he eats well, which formerly was his courage and learning—From whence these misfortunes invade us. Anciently in Rome, it was reckoned how many
cooks there were, and so it may be here! 2dly, Hindrance of supply "The fear that Popery should be
brought in"—We see Papists placed in military employments. 3dly, "The fear of being governed, in an arbitrary way, by a standing army." But now he comes
to the great point—Is really of opinion, that, at this
time, we should give the King supply for the fleet.
Virgil calls us in scorn divisos orbe Britannos. Our ships
are our walls, to which the King has a natural affection,
and more employs his mind on, than any of his predecessors.—Would have us give him something now.
Moves for 500,000l.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Wonders that, hand over head,
before the matter be reasoned, you chop upon a sum—
All the gentleman said, bating some few words at the
last, was as worthily as can be. But we are always to
give our Votes out of the result of reason—Will go as
far as any man for what is fit. 'Tis said, forty ships
are requisite—Offers then that we may see what this
Navy wants—For "to the ships and navy" is the
Order from the House, which you are bound strictly up
to, and how to look any neighbour in the face. Courage is the gift of God, and his work, for the men—
Would see what hulls of ships are wanting.
Mr Garroway.] The Debate, by Order, ought to be
singly and solely upon account of building ships. Those
we were so tender of before, our friends the French,
are now become the object of our fears—Those now are
for general peace, to make these fears the greater. What
mischief the French can give us they will—But will not
desert the King's Honour, nor the defence of his Country—Debate the reasons and proportions. When the
money for ships shall so be declared, and so be applied, and
no other way—Let's not say we get Votes upon one
another—And hopes this naming of sums may be given
over, but only after the Debate—This naming a sum
will not fright us out of our wits; we may give or
not give, for all that—He has been employed in the
accounts of the Navy, where he found the Rupert given
in, as full victualled and manned, two months before
she was off the stocks. Hopes that things are now better
managed, then heretofore. Would have the Commissioners of the Navy make a proposition, what the Navy
wants, and what may supply it, and then debate it.
Sir Henry Puckering.] Moves that we may supply the
King with thirty sail of ships of the several rates.
Mr Vaughan.] Ships are called for, before we are
told for what use—You are put rather upon the money
than the ships. Is willing to go freely to what shall
be done, but to talk of the ships number, before we
know what is wanting, is extravagant. Would first
fairly see what ships are wanting, and then proceed.
Mr Pepys.] Is sorry that, at the beginning of the Debate, we should give suspicion of one another. He has
none, and will give none. With all honesty and understanding, will give you what light he has in the
Navy, and submit it to you. In April last, he told
you, there were one hundred and fifty one ships, great
and small; eight of the first rate, nine of the second rate,
twenty one of the third rate, and thirty six of the fourth
rate. The rest are attendants on the fleet. The last
account he gave was, by way of comparison with our
neighbours the Dutch; they had then forty four more
ships than we, built by France.
Col. Birch.] He thinks the thing well opened, and
with the least number—Thinks, the House will strain
hard for defence of the King and Kingdom, when a
necessity for it. Is glad that the House was offered the
sum so low, that they could not hear it. (Cotton speaking
softly) Time was when our neighbours the French were
sent to, to build no more ships, or we would burn
them—Hopes we may see that day again, but we shall
sweat for it first. But 'tis not his errand to tell you
what ships are most useful; he was never at those pushes
at sea but once, and he thought it a mad one—But
the nation can never be beaten at sea by the Dutch,
but may be by the French. The Dutch must draw less
water, by their building for their shallows, though they
make it up in breadth—The French can, and so run
better by the wind. The coasts of France are as deep
as ours, and they build as well and as strong as we—
But for money he has displeased many before, and fears
he shall now—Would build as many ships in a year's
time as can be, and now to mention no more than can
be built in that time, not knowing where the clouds
may break—And would have occasion to meet the
King here once a year, till things be better settled—
Would know how many ships may be built in a year—
He cannot find that, in one year, above twenty or twenty
one ships can be built, if our all lay at stake. Desires that, if twenty ships shall be resolved, whether ten
thousand pounds a piece would build these ships, one
with another—Would know that first.
Mr Wood.] What first and second rate ships may
cost a ton? Many second rates may be called first
rates, stout and brave ships. The London, a brave ship,
is 1200 and odd ton, which answers a second and third
rate ship. He computes first and second rates at 14 l.
per ton; third rates at 12 l. per ton—The sending twenty
or thirty men of war for winter convoys does unprovide
the summer service. When the ship is built, cables
and fails cost as much more as the ship.
Sir Tho. Meres.] His calculation goes by number of
guns, for rates may be uncertainly called. A ship of
eighty guns and upwards, bears the great weight of the
battle. Of these we have more than the Dutch; of
forty guns and upwards, to go into that line, there they
have more than we, about thirty in number—But what
we have lately built, may difference the matter a
little, two, or three. But though our men are better
than theirs, yet forty of ours cannot fight eighty of theirs.
Next, how many of this thirty spoken of, we shall provide for—We cannot, we are told, build above twenty in
one year. Let us go to the twenty, and once a year,
meet again, and then build more—Wood says, twenty
are not to be done, but to be in two years, and as
many provisions to be added as may be. For the purpose, if you will say 'tis the opinion of the Committee
to provide money for twenty ships, first, second, and third
rates, he is ready to give his Affirmative.
Sir Thomas Clarges.]—Stroud moved for forty ships,
but he thinks thirty too many. Eighty five capital ships
will make the best fleet in Europe. All the seamen in
France are not 14,000. Strength of sea is to be reckoned
by seamen. Has heard that we have 26,000 seamen,
and some of them must be for traffic of the nation;
and if you have eighty five capital ships, you have the
greatest fleet in Europe. The charge of the Navy
is 80,000 l. per. ann. if you set out but a cock boat.
But if you build more ships, the charge is vast, at 20 l.
per ton, all things belonging to them. The London cost
17,000 l. Would have the Question for twenty five
ships, and you will be at least three years in building
Sir Richard Temple.] Would be informed what necessity of the number, and then consider what you will
do. He has heard that twenty two ships may be built
in one year.
Mr Garroway.] You are upon the number. He takes
that measure given us of the King of France, and Holland, to be extravagant, and no rule to go by. Is not
for the reason, that because they have them, therefore
we must. If they have a thousand more ships than we,
what will they do with them when they cannot be manned? Let them keep them to lie by the walls. The
inconvenience is when we come in from fight, disabled, and have no recruits. Is sure we cannot want
seamen, if trade be supported. The French are setting
up fishing, and the East India trade, and they suffer
you to bring no beaver skins. In time your plantations
will be over run, and that trade will over run you in
seamen. We have had unlucky success by giving too
much for the fleet at a time; and we may give more,
when we see the success of this. This will be an act of
generosity and duty to the King. Has been informed
that the timber is yet unselled for these ships. Shipwrights have wanted timber, and the prices will be
enhanced, and if you will enhance all prices, the first
undertaker of these ships will be undone. To day they
tell you of 12 and 14l. per ton; you must give such
allowance that men may not break upon it. Therefore would have three years time for these ships—And
so come to a Vote.
Mr Pepys.] The number of the workmen, and scarcity
of places to build ships in, must be considered. In this
he is much more desirous to learn than he finds persons
capable to teach him. He offers no opinion, but measures only to go by. Will show, if to save, or not to
save the Kingdom, what places you have to build in.
They are either great docks, or slips, or launches, of
which there are not so many for first and second rates,
as thirds; in all, these are twenty seven. At Chatham,
Deptford, Portsmouth, and Woolwich, in all six. At
Portsmouth, for third rate ships, three docks. One at
Blackwall, and Deptford Pitch-house, in all fourteen. These
are places fit for building—Submits to any man's exceptions—For workmen, 305 shipwrights to build one of
each rate in a year. This is to make you judge, and
him not confident to propose any thing. There are three
things requisite to building ships; places, hands, and
materials. Places are manifest, and hands no less; but
he's to seek, for materials, what to say—'Tis not to be
imagined that for so unforeseen a work as this, timber
could be felled. In 1665, no man could have imagined
that such a stock of timber should be felled for building the London. At home and abroad there is a dearth
of plank—But hears it said, "Provide for twenty ships this
year." He will not dislike nor propound the number.
The first year, timber will be green, and would you
have it always green? Therefore would provide all
the timber presently. For what is said of the London, he
has the builder's account given to the Lord Mayor. The
sum is 12 l. per ton, the total 14,000 l. Believes it was
made good, to the utmost of the contract—Submits to
be informed any way besides. The London is not so well
built a ship. The King has paid dear for building by
contract—It has cost the King 1000 l. on the London's
hull, in three months being abroad. There's no inspecting by any eye, where 'tis for the interest of the
builder to build ill. For the number, he supposes you'll
stick to the first proposed. On this consideration what's
enough? No better way to consider the force of the
enemy you are to oppose. From forty guns and upwards,
the King has seventy seven ships. France has ninety
nine, which is twenty two difference. The Dutch have
one hundred and eight, which is thirty seven difference (fn. 4) .
More light he will give you as occasion shall be, and
you call for it.
Sir Eliab Harvey.] We have twenty seven docks,
slips, and launches. Would know whether, if all these
shall be employed, building merchant ships will not be
Mr Pepys.] Go to work as soon as you can, you
may command every dock, before you can get materials. Then you may have hands. As to that of the
merchants, they have not much work for ships of the
first rate. Their craft is much of a lower work. The
great trade is not carried on with that size. The number
is upwards of what you have heard of, of workmen
that may suffice to carry on the King's work—Would
not have the Question proposed by Meres, to be exclusive to the materials.
Sir John Duncombe.] 'Tis the interest of the House to
meet your neighbours with force of equal strength, as
well as courage. The consequence of green timber will
be money lost. As for things necessary, would have
you enquire of them who can inform you.
Mr Wright, a Shipwright.] Should be as forward as
any man for forty ships, but twenty are as many as can
be built in three years time; and twenty well manned,
will be as many as are necessary to fight with all the
Sir Thomas Lee.] 'Tis dangerous, in his opinion, to
go so far. Would have consideration had of what was
done, when we gave 2,500,000l. You were told it was
but a Vote of credit, to secure us from a war, but it
so alarmed, that you frightened your neighbours into a
war. What made the war with Holland, Spain, and
Germany? France armed so much that he frighted his
neighbours. As for England, 'twill be wondered you
have been asleep so long. You build now twenty ships,
and France will upon it build forty, and so you must
build more than you are able. In such a time of peace
as this, 'tis not a Vote of noise, but it will undo you.
Therefore vote cautiously and wisely, not to frighten
Sir Thomas Meres.] Will not provide here such a
number of ships, as not to come here again. Would
be here in a year and three quarters again.
Sir Wm Coventry.] It may be expected, because he has
had some experience in the Navy, that he should give
you some light; but has nothing singular to offer you,
but what already has been. As for being equal with
our neighbours—But since no body has showed it possible, that more than twenty ships can be built, without
stops to repairs of ships we have already, or the merchants affairs, which, if it does, your ships will be useless; therefore 'tis no advantage to talk of a greater
number—See this part well performed—Believes that our
neighbours will build more, and we must still give more
money to overtake them. It not appearing that any
more can be built, would have an unanimous Vote, rather than say thirty are requisite, and you say you are
not able to build twenty ships.
Sir Edward Baynton.] Hears several things in Debate.
Ships and their value. Twenty named—Consider affairs represented of Christendom. The French and
Dutch are at war by sea and land; the Spaniards revolting in Italy. Your intention will be looked upon
by the number of your ships. All our end now in
peace is but for our own defence. As soon as they
have a new coach, we must not put away our old one.
Would put the Question for twenty sail of ships.
Mr Waller.] Does not remember, in the quantum,
but that the Chairman collects what is unanimous. Rome
was not built in a day. Nor the Navy. Twenty ships
in a day is very fair. If we are well used on land, we
cannot fail at sea. Babel had not ceased building, but
for the several languages. We love the King, and the
honour of the nation, and 'tis for both to have an unanimous Vote. Put the Question for twenty ships.
Mr Powle.] Thinks that, by the revenue, as it is now,
by good husbandry and management, all these ships
might have been set out, without an aid. If admitted thirty ships, then whether you will vote them
all at this time; for if so, there can be no visible occasion for this Parliament to meet again, in seven years.
The prospect of the coming of a Parliament keeps
things in order. Your last Acts have much kept out
Popery, and is glad now of the occasion of this supply
to have some good effects of this Session, and hopes to
have so of another. The longest time and shortest
sum is usually put first. Twenty ships is your first
Question, because least charge to the Kingdom.
Sir John Duncombe.] Would not have the House led
into an error, which many men may be. He takes the
additional duty, and all the rest of the revenue to be
1,360,000 l. per ann. Twenty ships are agreed on all
sides. The rest lie upon the opinion of the House.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Rises, with some trouble, when he
thinks that the revenue sinks, like our rents, which was
agreed to be 1,100,000 l. and with the addition to be
so small, 'tis strange! Like cloth put into a tub of water,
that shrinks the cloth, and diminishes the water too.
Mr Finch.] The first thing moved was sums in general, and then thirty ships. That was not thought
enough, and then forty moved for. The reasons why
but twenty ships were rather negative then positive. If
more than twenty be granted, then 'tis said no need of
our meeting here again of a long time. Money is not
the only reason of Parliaments assembling. Thinks 'tis
fresh in memory that, in the last Session, not a penny
was asked you, but only for settling Peace and the
Kingdom, and for establishing a good understanding
between the King and his people. But there's no danger that the Parliament should not meet soon; the King
has great debts, and you voted him nothing—Heard
affirmed upon veracity and the order, which assures
him of the truth of it. The provocation of neighbours
began on the other side. They built ships first. If every
state be governed by their interest, hopes we shall be so.
A strange reverse since Queen Elizabeth's time, when the
French were sent to, to build no more ships, and now
we speak only of a defensive war—But plainly less than
thirty ships is not necessary for war. Suppose we could
build but twenty ships, shall we not provide for more?
What harm in stores for thirty? If thirty be necessary,
at least, as all agree, provision for them, what haste of
building them? Is it a time, now others grow gréat, to
neglect our own Salvation ? We at most give but part
for the whole; to protect all we have.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Wonders at the confusion of face
spoken of a war. We have sixty ships of fifty five guns,
and fifty of other rates, and, for necessity, the merchants.
We have as good a fleet as ever, or any neighbours
already; we have not need of thirty ships, twenty is
a very great proportion; and the King's revenue
1,300,000 l. per ann. will well build all these ships, and
support the Government.
Col. Birch.] As some are abler than others, so some
step faster than others; a man steps because he would
not jump into sums, and run into numbers, that the
reason of the thing should be debated. 'Tis a strange
thing what was said, "That we give never a penny of
this to the King." Strange thing ! Though the King
gets not by it, yet in such a habit of giving—Those
gentlemen run to the highest—The thing he supposed
was what rationally might be built, and the old ones
might be repaired, and the merchants business served.
The highest number we can build is not above twenty
two, employ all the ships and docks you can; and
unless we encourage seamen, all is to no purpose—Wonders at the man that moved this, and that as said,
when premised in the Debate. The reason of the
thing is very much against so many in two years—And
nothing but for argument that the money may be longer
paying.—And would not have the world believe but
twenty two ships in two years—Therefore would have
the Question, that they be forthwith built.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] Would be glad to compromise this point, and the word "forthwith," which
will do no more.
Mr Garroway.] Moves for the word "convenient
speed." "Forthwith" has another implication. It may
call for all the Money at once.
Resolved, That it is the opinion of the Committee, that twenty
ships of the first, second, and third, rate, shall be built with all
convenient speed, [which was agreed to by the House. To
proceed on Tuesday.]
[Lord Cavendish, having sent a petition to the House, acknowledging his breach of Privilege, and craving pardon, was
ordered to be discharged from his imprisonment in the Tower.]