Wednesday, November 10.
Upon a proffer to report the Bill of illegal Imprisonment, &c.
the Speaker jestingly said, "it should be reported next after Sir
William Killegrew's Bill."
Debate on the Conference sent to the Lords, about [their
changing the Vote for] recalling his Majesty's subjects out of
the service of the French King.
Sir Thomas Meres.] The Lords have given us no reasons why they join not with us in this Address. 'Tis but
actum agere, to do the same thing again by Proclamation—As we had not the libetty to tell our opinion,
believes it invalidates the Act, and will only produce a
Proclamation, which may be much more effectual than
this. But would reserve that claim to the House, that
we are not altogether without power of giving our opinion of things.
Sir John Duncombe.] The Lords have been cautious.
What they have said does not forestall your Bill—Would
agree with the Lords in another Proclamation, rather
than search too much into this. Would avoid all occasion of dispute with the Lords, and have two or three
days time to consider of this.
Mr Powle.] Would avoid all occasion of quarrelling
with the Lords. But he thinks, if you agree, you will
invalidate your Act. Why would you not stay to see
the effect of this, till you have passed your Bill? Would
have it put off till Tuesday, and prepare the Bill by that
time, which is still but an Address.
It was adjourned accordingly.
In a Grand Committee, on the state [and condition] of the
Sir Thomas Lee.] It is for all concerns that justice be
free. He finds in a Gazette, 1674, published to the
world, "Two Justices of the Peace, who, by Act of Parliament, are to hear and determine differences arising between the Excisemen and the Ale-Brewer, about the
quantum of money, to terrify their proceedings, as a
warning-piece to others, to deter all neighbours how they
do justice again;" and farther, that the King declares
the Law at the Council-Table. If so, he knows not
the use of the Statute of the 16th and 17th of the late King.
If this be done at the Council-Table, the next thing will
be to controul Westminster-Hall, and the Exchequer, and
why not against merchants for duties, and demand of
the King's Bench, why they grant Habeas Corpus's?
Would apply to the King, that these mischiefs may be
checked in time.
Mr Williams.] This thing has been long in his thoughts.
In the Act for the Excise there is an Appeal from the
particular Justices to the Sessions, and they are no farther troubled. He is a Justice, and instructions have
been brought him contrary to the Act, which is to take
the gauger's charge. They stopped not at these instructions—He has been cited for non-administration, that he
has not proceeded according to the instructions. He
and his neighbours have been troubled in it. But the
law has been his refuge.
Sir John Duncombe.] The proceedings may not have
that aspect they are said to have. He never yet sent for
any one man in his life. In two years time, he knows,
nothing occurs to him of this kind. It falls out in this
business of the Excise, where, in Corporations, the Justices are the judges of the cause. There is seldom any
dispute in the country, where gentlemen are the Justices.
In Corporations, there is a combination of kindred, very
partial to one another, and they are the sole judges, and
they, in time, will overthrow the Excise itself. He knows
not how that particular case came into the Gazette; but
the man confessed himself in the wrong, and said he
was sorry for it, and went away, and no farther proceedings were against him. Where is the hardness of all
this, so seldom and rarely done? Not in two years time
such another instance. He wonders how it came into
the Gazette—Though the Council-board declares not law
—Yet when the Council is in an extremity, by whom
shall they be informed? Shall a man not know his own
right? If the Judges give an opinion, that it is law, the
Council goes by it. He will not say, that Williams is in
the wrong, but is sure the Council is in the right, when
the King advises with the Judges, and his Judges—And
is sure 'tis such as they will answer. He thinks not
theirs the least failing in the King. If you knew but
the circumstances, they would reveal it—And he has
endeavoured to do his master right, and the people no
wrong, from the bottom of his heart.
Sir Thomas Meres.] He believes that the King had advice in doing this; but our complaint is of that advice.
He thinks that the instructions sent into the country are not
law, and he obeyed them not, and was not sent for up.
This is no new Question; it has been debated in his town
eight or nine years. The short of the Question is, whether the gauger's charge shall stand good to all quantity
of liquors. Show that in the Act of Parliament, and he
has done. The Act is plain in the directions of judgments, and Appeals to the Sessions. Proceeding by these
instructions, the poor Ale-brewer calls the Exciseman
forsworn wretch; and that's all his remedy. The Justices
are brought to the Council, as if it were before the Judges,
or the Exchequer-chamber. 'Tis of general concern, and
would take away a great deal of heart-burning, if these
instructions were taken away, that the gauger's charge
should not stand good. We had a clause here, and the
Lords sent one to this purpose, and 'twas reported. If it
be not Law, he knows not what power the Privy Council
have to declare it so
Mr Sawyer.] You have not yet examined this thing
thoroughly. To say, generally, that the King cannot
send for Justices of the Peace to the Council-Table, on
male-administration, no gentleman will say so—If the
cause be dismissed, the King and Council have done him
right. 'Tis not ripe at all to say it is a grievance, till
it be farther examined, as whether according to the opinion of all the Judges. A charge the gauger is, but not
such a one as to judge the parties by; 'tis only to put
proof on the parties on the other side. Therefore to address the King for remedy for we know not what, is
Mr Williams.] Moves to have it ordered to be referred to the Committee, to enquire by what Counsel
this was done. This power of the Justices of the Peace
has its creation from the Act, a negative part of it, and
a positive, excluding all other ways—If for turning the
Justice of Peace out for misdemeanor, the Council has
done it. But the Act is not pursued in punishing and reproaching men for not pursuing the instructions.
Mr Sacheverell.] Speaks not upon the circumstances, but
that the Council should persuade the King to over-rule a
judicial power, which, by Act of Parliament, has been
given to the Judges—And when the King takes upon him
the exposition of the law, against law itself, he must
call that an arbitrary power, when against the letter of
the law, and the opinion of the Judges. Twelve witnesses were examined in this matter, whether it was beer
or ale, and all agreed 'twas barely beer, and not ale; and
the Justices, parties unconcerned, gave judgment for
beer. The gaugers, by this way, are parties and judges
in their own case. The Act says, 32 ale, and 36 beer—
The Justices are sent for up to the Council, and the King
was pleased to give judgment, that the gauger's charge
was a sufficient judgment—Persuaded to have the King's
pardon—On this single charge of the gauger's, they all
paid it. He therefore seconds the motion for an Address to the King about it.
Mr Waller.] Has heard somewhat of Sir William
Wentworth's argument from him before. You are told
of the rebellion in the Long Parliament. Would let all
people know, that, if they have eaten sour grapes, our
teeth are not set on edge, and we have not forfeited our
rights for their ills. In the row of our Kings, there are
as few ill as in any kingdom. King John was a tyrant,
and killed his nephew, [Prince Arthur] and had a design to bring in foreigners. Shall we give the King less
loyalty, because he hath had an ill predecessor? We have
the same power as before the Act of Oblivion passed, for
particular men; and shall we not have the benefit of it
ourselves? As to that particular, said to be done by the
King's Counsel at law, they are not the surest Council.
They are, as good advocates for the King, but not as
Judges; but they are his Counsel, and have been asked,
as it may be again. Before Mr Hampden's case, the King
consulted the Judges; and he thinks 'tis part of their
oath, to give the King true counsel 'Tis said, that the
Judges counsel was, that ship-money was lawful; a Judge,
a friend of his, said, such counsel was given; and 'tis
said by all the Judges, who have a fashion, that the judgment of the major part is subscribed by all of them, not
saying whose advice it is in particular. 'Tis the natural
way for the King to consult his Counsel at Law; if he
has done so, then the Council-Table may be excused.
The Judges have judged wrong, and formerly it was
our way to complain of the Judges; and the Lords were
advised with, as in the case of Ship-money. If the
King's judgment be by the advice of the Judges, we are
not then to go to the King for redress, but to the Lords,
—If not, then to go to the King.
Mr Streete.] Knows not what end their judgment may
have, if not traversable—He must say, they do practise
such a judgment, and that now for the gaugers; but
he takes the Law to be otherwise. You'll have delay in
an Address to the Lords about it. But would have the
opinion of the House, by declaration, that it is against
Sir William Coventry.] Proposes, that we should declare the Law in this matter, and go to the Lords for
their concurrence. He easily imagines the success of
that. The Lords will tell us, we meddle with what belongs not to us. He is against ravelling into the matter, as who was the author of these instructions. But
hears a complaint, that judgment is given where the
Law has not lodged it—In the gauger; and it was
never intended that none should judge over him. When
there is a Question in doubt, the gaugers can find better
Counsel, to open the eyes of the Judges, than the poor
brewers. The Judges, if not supplied otherwise with
better information, make their judgments, as either party
can make their case out. When it is a grievance to the
subject, 'tis our part to remove it. This is excluded by
law from the Council-Table, to declare law, and would
have it represented to the King, that no new instructions
may be super-induced upon the Justices of the Peace,
but that they may be left to judge according to law.
Col. Birch.] Must needs say, that the honourable persons concerned in this matter, wherever they could, have
compounded these complaints, if possible. He believes,
that, by the countenance of these instructions, the gauger
leaves no return; and if the brewers enter one gallon
less, they take them on the forfeiture. The gauger will
do it, as soon as it is brewed, and will then say, it is
ale, whilst the strength is in it. 'Tis said, that the King
may send for a Justice of the Peace—But they are rather
Judges, than Justices, in the matter. Wentworth would
have no representation, because, in the Long Parliament,
they were numberless; but if we hope, in this, to have
remedy, and not the same thing again, would represent
the grievances, one by one; and this is the way to it.
Mr Sawyer.] Would see these Instructions, and what
the Council have done upon it; how they stand. It
may be legal, or illegal, according as the matter is.
The Justice may neglect his duty, and it is in the King's
power to remove him, if any man upon his cognizance
tells you the whole fact.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The Judges commissions are now
durante bene placito, and not quam diu, &c. as formerly
—He thinks this good evidence in the Gazette, and published by good authority; else the Council-Table would
have corrected it before now. (Reads the advertisement
in the Gazette) This is, as to the Excise and gauger,
a declaring the law, and as much a judgment as they
could give in it, to the intent that other men might
Sir John Duncombe.] Thinks the thing is of the first
edition, and hopes it will be of the last. Things are
not usually brought hither, but upon the last extremity—
Would remedy this—But he fears that the consequence of
this day's Debate will break the Excise in pieces. The
farmers will catch at your Debates, which you intend
well; and the King will suffer by it. This being but
one precedent, and unadvisedly brought to the Council,
he would have farther proceeding, &c. The law is good,
but hears the practice of the Justices. This thing had
not its steps as it ought to have; but to make a severe
judgment upon it may spoil the Excise itself.
Mr Vaughan.] The Instructions are either legal or illegal, which you have made by an Act, reversed by the
Privy Council; and their judgment is taken away, by
law, for explaining the law.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] The Question is not, what the
Instructions were, but that there were any. Put the case,
that they go for remedy to the Exchequer; it would be
strange, if from them, who are judges of the Revenue,
the matter should be heard over again at the Council Table, and be judged there a wrong judgment, and the
parties be forced to acknowledge their fault. He knows
no kind of difference. At the first 'twas thought a
light thing, but now sees it of great consequence.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Some Justices at Lincoln were
sent up prisoners, and paid sixty pound fees for a matter of this nature, and were glad they got off so—(He reads
the Proviso out of the Act.) "The differences, &c. to be
determined in the proper county, and not elsewhere."
The Excise so raises the Exciseman, and impoverishes
the people at this rate, that he moves that it may be stated,
and so done, and how to do it leaves it to you.
Mr Powle.] These instructions are of a dangerous
nature. He has seen many instructions under the name
of the Sollicitor and Attorney General, very prejudicial
to the people, and contrary to law, to raise the revenue,
and those printed and urged upon them.
Sir Thomas Meres.] The Gazette is published by authority, and may have the effect of a Proclamation in
Mr Secretary Williamson.] What is in the Gazette is
not schemes for the interest of the nation. The Gazette
is, in some measure, under the care of the Secretaries of
State, but not wholly of their penning. The Advertisements are the clerks. He sees there is great stress
laid upon it, in terms so high "as the King and Council
to have declared the law." But take the thing where
it is authentic. (It seems there are pains taken to have
the Gazette so ready.) He joins in the motion to have
the authentic pieces of the whole, and then judge of it
as you think material.
Sir Tho. Lee.] 'Twas not a particular advertisement,
but only news that week from Whitehall.
Sir Tho. Meres.] This is such a publication as edicts
in France have, and it terifies Justices like the effect of
It being moved, "That the illegal summoning," &c.
Sir John Birkenhead.] Is for the word, "illegal" to
Sir Edward Deering.] You have had a complaint this
day against a Sheriff (fn. 1) , and you summoned him before
you condemned him. Sure you will have more respect to
the Council Table than to the best Sheriff of England.
'Tis moved that part of your Address be, "That no instructions, declaratory of law, may be, for the future,
sent from the Council Table." Instructions for execution of the law are, and ever were, entrusted to the
Resolved, That the summoning of Justices of the peace to the
Council Board, for their proceedings in matters judicially before
them, relating to the Excise, is a grievance, and shall be one
part of the matter to be redressed in the state of the Kingdom.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] For point of carriages, as exercised by the King's Council, the law is perverted. Justices are summoned to the Council Board, and severely
handled, and he is one of them. The Justices draw
warrants for summoning the carriages, and if they do
not send them to the high constables themselves, they
are complained of. They suggest five or six, and send
for twenty, and have no occasion to use them, and
come fifteen miles, and they send them back again.
They allow six pence a mile from St. George's Church
home, not accounting from St George's to the place
where they receive loading.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] Tis not judged at the Council
table, but put only in a way to bring it to the law.
Sir Lionel Jenkins.]—Would not have it "judgments"
for this may be very extraordinary and arbitrary—Would
have it "judicially proceeding."
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Knows not why the Justices are
sent for to the Privy Council. If they do not their duty,
there lies an information against them in the King's
Mr Secretary Williamson.] There was a riot in Westminster, 1500 in a Commotion; the Justices would not
stir to prevent it, and were therefore sent for to the
Sir Thomas Clarges.] He thinks that the Lord Keeper
and the Secretaries of State are Justices as well as they, and
would know what they did in that riot. Why may
not we say, why not you brother justice? And why not
you? Let them give you an account of it.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The thing is, whether the Council
Table is a place for Justices of peace to answer their actions at; whether law is there to be declared. He
thinks that, for the riot at Westminster, an information in the King's Bench against the Justices was more
proper. All this summons is but to frighten people
from things they would not have done.
Sir John Duncombe.] 'Tis said, "summoning Justices
of the peace in matters judicially depending before
them"—If he should not open the matter, he should
be failing to the House, and to himself. If a corporation shall judge, and give a wrong judgment, what
shall the King do in this case, to do himself right,
and the public?—Is it not a reasonable thing that when
a wrong judgment is given, the Council can but
enquire to be informed, and all sides are heard. Is
this a grievance? You leave the King upon the hardest
terms—By charge in other Courts, you will make
men abandon Corporations, and ruin all trade.
Mr Sawyer.] Put the case that the King be injured by
a wrong judgment of the Justices—Better a mischief than
an inconvenience. The best law in the world has some
mischief to particular persons. The King has the placing and displacing of the Judge, so that the Judge is
in his choice. As to the Objection, that, in Corporations,
where, by ancient Charter, the Mayor is a Justice in
his year, and that year after also, and shall give a corrupt judgment—'Tis better such an information should
be against him in Westminster Hall, where the thing
would be infinitely more exemplary, than at the Council Table. If any thing in the Act, or if the Act of Excise be ill penned, what sits the Parliament for, but to
mend these inconveniences?
Sir William Coventry.] Our grievance is, that which
is our law goes not on as our law ought to do. The
other clauses perhaps were not given in the Act of
Excise, but for the sake that gentlemen should not
be drawn out of their country to answer the matter,
but in its proper place. He fears that these Debates
may prejudice the Excise, but the fault is in the farmers,
not here; had they gone on in the methods they ought
without vexing the people—But whilst 'tis our law,
let us enjoy it, and let not the people be drawn out of
their country; and, in the mean time, would have as little
noise of it as may be.
The Question mentioned passed.
Mr Powle.] In H. IV. H. VI. and somewhere in a Statute of H. VII. the Lords of the Council have some power
in case of riots. But 'tis sufficiently declared by these
Statutes, that the Privy Council is no Court of Justice—
Only for advice of foreign affairs, leagues, peace, and
Resolved, That a Committee be appointed to examine these
instructions that have been sent into the country, relating to the
Excise, and Hearth-money, and to report the same to the House.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] There is great complaint of the
poverty of the nation. He imputes it much to the
trade we have with the French nation, which out-balances
us. By the scheme given in, there is a million per ann.
difference, and 'tis one reason, among others, that was
given, why this 300,000l. would be so hardly collected,
That shortly the Kingdom would be in a condition to
give no more money. He moves that another general
head may be, "The neglect of a due treaty about
regulating the French trade, one of the great reasons of
the poverty of the nation."
Thursday, November 11.
The Bill for exportation of Wool [was read the third time (fn. 2) .]
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Many times, formerly, Charters were taken away, that were against trade—
Moves that this Bill may be withdrawn, and that a Committee do consider whether it is fit to bring in another
Sir Richard Temple] In Ed.III's time, this of wool was
a certain trade, and a merchant must have a certain
trade and host got, and then wools were transported
and manufactured abroad, but the trade was inconsiderable then in the nation.
Gustavus Adolphus, King of Sweden, being asked what place
he would most willingly be King of, said, "of Newcastle. Being master of that coal, he would quickly master England, by
straitening London." Applied to transporting wool (fn. 3) .
In a Grand Committee on the Supply. Sir John Trevor
in the Chair. The Clerk read the Order false, viz. "The
Committee to consider of a supply for building more ships."
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Was one of the voters for appropriating this money, this supply, for building ships
only. You have already given your negative for this
money to be placed in the Chamber of London; he proposes therefore that it may be paid into the Exchequer,
and be appropriated to the building ships, by penalties
to be inflicted on the officers of the Exchequer, if the
money shall be applied to any other purpose.
Sir George Downing.] If it be appropriated with penalties only, the thing will be done.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Shall have great confidence in
the thing, when 'tis done; a good execution of fact will
satisfy the thing—Howard affirmed it might be done
in the Exchequer, and so did Downing. He shall have
confidence when he finds the thing done, because he has
been deceived, and would not be so again.
Mr William Harbord.] Would have the money be
kept apart, and a distinct account kept of it from all
Mr Sacbeverell.] This is no new thing practised, but
done in the greatest Kings reigns, E. I. H. IV. H. VII.
H. VIII. The Exception made, "That it looks like distrust," is nothing. 6 H. IV. There was some occasion to raise money—Tonnage and Poundage were appropriated for uses—The way was this; they constituted two Treasurers, to whom the money was paid,
for those uses. Those two, and all the Officers of the
Exchequer, were accountable for it in the next Parliament; that if by any warrant, patent, or written order,
by Great or Privy Seal, this money should be paid to
any other use, than that it was granted for, as well
those who grant them, as pay the money by virtue
of them, should undergo the penalty of High Treason. After this, the Treasurers were sworn at the
Lords bar, for due execution of their office—One
year and a half afterwards, they accounted to the
Commons, and they had a discharge from the Lords and
every Commoner of England, who have an undeniable
right to the same, as they pay the money to have an
account of it.
Mr Waller.] Would send for the Record; the Clerk
of the Parliament has it. He was here in Parliament,
and saw the Treasurer account for the money given in
the Palatinate War, in King James's time, in the next
King's reign. He saw that Council of War here;
they had chairs set them, and their hats on; they were
some Scotch, some Irishmen. The thing is in minutes in
the Statute, but set at large in the Record—More care
must be taken in this than they did. 'Tis not strange
that the Commons should be more trusted than other
Courts. The King is so far from being deceived by us,
in Money, that we are they that give the Money—He
said privately, That the Fleet is but a lame arm to beg
Resolved, That the Supply for building the ships shall be made
payable into the Exchequer, and be kept separate, and distinct,
&c. That penalties shall be inflicted on all officers who shall
divert, or misapply it; and] that the account for the said Supply shall be transmitted to the Commons of England in Parliament
[which was agreed to by the House.]
The Speaker took the Chair.
Sir Thomas Meres.] If there be not an Appropriation
of the Customs, he believes we may be called upon again
Sir William Hickman.] Seconds the motion for a
Clause in this Bill of Money, "for appropriating the
Sir John Birkenhead.] It is not usual to put a perpetual Clause into a temporary Bill.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Before you appoint a Committee
for drawing this Bill of Money, would know what we
are to have drawn, by Order of the House. And the
next Question is, that you have such a Clause.
Sir Richard Temple.] 'Tis the constant Order of the
House, that you give no farther instructions to the Committee, till you have voted a Bill. 'Tis the work of a
Committee to make two Bills one.
The Speaker.] He is at the greatest loss in the world
how to serve the House, when a thing is Order one
day, and not another. If you'll make this clause part
of the Bill, it must be debated first in the House.
Sir Thomas Meres.] 'Tis good and safe what the Speaker
has said—But did not agree to go to a Grand Committee, because he was afraid the Speaker would be
against it. He likes so well what the Speaker has
propounded, that he would have him leave the Chair
Mr Vaughan.] If we make not the Clause of the
same nature, and in the same Bill, we are not like to
have our Bill.
Sir Thomas Lee.] 'Tis as natural that ships, when decayed, should be repaired, as that new ones should be
built, and therefore is for this Clause "of appropriation" to be in this Bill.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] This Clause "of appropriation," and the rest of the Bill, on the mother's side
are not a kin, though they are on the father's side—
You take away out of the King's Revenue, and yet he
is of opinion that what possibly can be done in the
matter, may be done. Would adjourn the Debate till
to morrow. But would not have a Committee sit this
afternoon now upon it.
Lord Cavendish.] Williamson argues right. In one
part, 'tis of a different nature. One is raising money
on the land, the other on the sea. He gave his consent that money should be raised on the land, for the
use of the sea, though 'tis extraordinary; therefore moves
for a Clause to be referred to a Committee, "for Appropriation," in this Bill.
Col. Birch.] Is loth to show you that these two Clauses
are too near a kin, for fear they should be too near to
marry. He cannot believe they are in danger not to
agree. The reason why this should be referred to a
Grand Committee is, because that is not so slippery to
go through as the House. This is a charge over, and
done but to secure it, in going to the Committee,
and you cannot do it now, it seems, without a dilatory
way of raising money. What business can this have
at the Committee? He lays this down as a maxim,
that if you take not away this course and practice of
borrowing at interest upon interest, what can the nation have to keep it from ever wanting? There was a
time once, when 2,500,000l. was given in yonder
corner, (where Paston moved it.) When given, it was
perfected in two days; and if you will devote this money to particular uses, you will go through the business. There was borrowed, upon the credit of that
great sum, so much upon interest, that 'tis not paid to
this day. 'Tis the interest of particular persons to put
the King upon borrowing. Gentlemen that take their
half-years rents before-hand, will eat both land and rent
before-hand—And what is the reason you press men for
the sea-service, but because you do not pay them? If
ever you intend to have men fight, 'tis interest must bring
men to you. If ever you intend to have a Navy, for the
honour of the King, to be master at sea, this Clause "of
appropriating the tonnage and poundage to the use of
the Navy only," must be inserted in this Bill.
The House divided upon the Question of adjourning, which
passed in the negative [146 to 117.]
Debate on the Clause concerning the bankers security for money
lent upon the Customs.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] Offers this, that nothing
can stand between this Appropriation and you, but the
impossibility of doing it—Would settle the nearest time
for this matter, and set out the true state of the Revenue,
and then you may judge whether it is capable to suffer
this Appropriation; and, if it be not, would have gentlemen consider what they are doing with that which is
for your greatest safety. Set therefore a short time to
examine the state of the Revenue, and the consequences
of this Appropriation, and go not now into it, when we
cannot come out of it with that reasonableness the thing
Sir George Downing.] He takes this Question to be of
great consequence; it may be, more than is apprehended. If you will have a Clause in this Bill, it must be at
a Grand Committee; but is utterly against giving a Committee such power; to make such a marriage. He says,
('till you vote it otherwise) it will be a detestable marriage. When you go in such an untrodden way, you
may repent when it is too late. Things of this kind are
altering the Government. The King's Answer to a Money Bill, is, le Roi remercie ses bons sujets; accepts leur
benevolence. To a public Bill he answers, when he passes
it, le Roi le veult; a distinct Answer for the MoneyBill. What Answer shall the King then make to this
Bill? The King must make two Answers to this one
Bill, being of two natures. If this way come to be
made a practice, what shall the Answer be? The King's
judgment in passing Bills ought to be as free as ours,
and it is for the kingdom's good it should be so. When
once this way is made use of in one Bill, why not in another? 'Tis for our good that the King should come as
free as we to passing Bills. The consequence else will
be, either the King must lose the money, or pass the
Bill. Therefore is against such a power to the Committee.
Mr Vaughan.] This very law of the Customs, given
upon trust and confidence, for guarding the sea, has been
broken. How was Magna Charta granted, and Money
was annexed to it? 'Tis not so strange a thing therefore
as Downing makes it. If the Customs will not renew
the old ships, you must relieve new ships out of some
new matter that you have not yet given.
Mr Powle.] Hears it said, "That, in giving this
supply, we give nothing to the King."—The Commons
have given nothing, or very little, to the King, for defence of the kingdom. If the Commons do give an aid
for the sea, they give for support of the Government.
This is giving to the King, and he is a gainer by it, by
taking undue pensions and farms upon it—and the
King thanks us for it. The Customs are at least 600,000l.
per ann. That aid is not for the splendor of the Court,
Sir Richard Temple.] Such a Clause as this might be,
when the King passed all the Acts together, and the King
refused or passed what he pleased; but since the King
must now accept, or refuse, all, and give one uniform
Answer, therefore the Bills must be so. The Clause of
Corn, in a Money-Bill, spoken of, was not remote to
the matter, as is said. This of Appropriation is, to another Bill not yet brought in, and you break Orders in
the method of it. If you will go on with it, would appoint to-morrow, ten of the clock, that you may be
acquainted with the state of the Revenue. It was never
the practice of this House to annex an impossible condition to an aid. You do by this Clause repeal your resolution, and overthrow what you have already done.
Mr Mallet.] There are instances, new and old, that
may be given, of this way of annexing Clauses to MoneyBills.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Temple has convinced him, in this
matter, more than he was before. He tells you, "that
this money must be otherwise employed, and yet, that it
is necessary the Fleet be preserved." He tells you ingenuously, that he would not adjourn the House, yet
would adjourn the Debate—He says, 'tis proper for the
Committee; but the House is not resolved of it—'Tis a
strange way of saving time. This Clause is but applying the money to the use it was first given.
Sir John Hotham.] If he was satisfied that Temple's
argument would convince any one man, he would hear
Sir Thomas Meres.] Desires Temple may speak again,
and believes he is so ingenuous, that he will not speak
the same thing again.
Sir Edward Dering.] 'Tis unavoidable, that, if a man
speaks to Order, he must speak to the merits too. He
has often heard of arguments of inconvenience—We are
all unanimous to apply the sum given to building ships
only—Believes we are all of a mind, as to that. You
are told, "'tis against Order—A thing of such weight,
at this time of the day, to go into a Grand Committee.
—And the King's giving an uncertain Answer to the Bill."
All which he has not yet heard answered. To which he
shall add, that it is not safe—And of great weight—The
Bankers must be heard; and if for these, the Lords
should refuse to pass this Appropriation, and the Bill of
300,000l. the account being to be made to the Commons, exclusive of the Lords, would you, for that,
lose the particular Bill for Appropriation? Would therefore have the Bill single.
Mr Waller.] Certainly one cannot speak to the Question, without speaking to the merits of the cause. The
confidence and trust of the Commons gave the King the
Customs, "for guard of the sea;" and so the Preamble
of the Act for the Customs runs. 'Tis a great error to
think that is not given to the King, which is for the common good, for our defence, and he is master of peace
and war. He thinks this Bill cannot be without this
Clause of Appropriation. It is thrown in our way, that
the Customs are the subsistence of the King; and where
is the money for ships? 'Tis said, "the King has subsisted on it," and so he may on this money we now
give. "The King subsists on the Customs." This is
plainly to tell us, we shall never have a Navy, but by a
Land Tax—But he thinks, that neither the King, nor the
nation, can subsist without this. As to subsistence for
the King, finds it a rock in the way, and it must be removed. The King had purveyance for his subsistence,
and pre-emption and composition; we found it of no use
to the King, and we give him more in lieu of that. Can
any man give such horrible advice? The most envious
of our neighbours could not give worse, than not to appropriate the Customs. We give him better advice;
to subsist upon what is given him to do it upon. But
'tis said, "'tis anticipated." 'Tis some private bargain
for private convenience—Put this into the scale against
the support of the nation. What is the duty of a loyal
Parliament, but to break these snares? We have it de
jure, but ex necessitate; all naval forces in the world are
maintained by the result of the trade of the sea. Holland,
the Venetians, the Carthaginians, are all so maintained.
To take this away, and put it upon Land-Tax!—Tonnage and Poundage are the straw for the fleet, and we are
sent to gather stubble to make those bricks.
Mr Vaughan.] No man will distrust the King; but we
find those that have violated laws. We find that, to our
smart, the King has been misguided by ill counsels; but
to have the King's name used in such raptures, he cannot endure it—Every thing is "appropriated;" and shall
other men interpret your laws to the King's ruin? This
squandering away will put the King so to it, that he cannot eat, but must come hither for it. The King ought
not to be named in matters of offence, and we cannot
bear it with patience.
Mr Pepys.] The King has rightly applied 350,000l.
per ann. in the Navy. He asserts, that there has not been
a year since the King came in, but there has been spent
400,000l. per ann. Would settle you in that for the
present, and shall apply it more hereafter. It had been
very well for the King, if the money long since had
been "appropriated." He believes every one is for a seasonable Appropriation of the Customs; but whether now?
He wonders it is so pressed, when most positively avowed, that the King cannot eat bread, if you do it; and
many persons will be undone by it. Take all the fair
means to be informed of it, before you pass this Vote.
Sir William Bucknall.] 'Tis a great mistake to say,
"The King cannot eat bread, if the Customs be anticipated." Suppose all the Revenue was anticipated. If he
apprehended this to be the case, would be as unwilling as
any man to do it. Proffered a paper.
Sir Edmund Wyndham, Knight Marshal.] Wonders that
the House is not so much swayed by reason as club-law,
Moves that the accounts of the Revenue may be laid
upon the Table.
Sir Thomas Meres.] 'Tis said, "that gentlemen have
not offered reason in this matter;" and the great point
of impossibility is urged upon us. When this comes to
a Committee of the whole House, then these papers of
accounts, and all things, may be exposed. 'Tis said,
"What shall the King have to maintain his House, but
the Customs?" By this Appropriation, the Navy-materials shall be 20 per cent. cheaper; and this Appropriation not to commence till Lady-day next.
Sir William Bucknall.] He believes, they that tell you
of this think it true; and they make the King believe
the same thing they would make us believe. To talk of
the Anticipation of the Revenue for three years, is no more
than he to have anticipated his own Revenue for seven
years to keep his wife and children! If he be rightly informed, this Anticipation is to pay pensions for two or
three years to come, whilst the just debts are not paid, but
the Pensions for two or three years to come. In rules of
good husbandry, it is usual to pay off what a man pays
most interest for. But the King pays the new debts, and
the old ones are forgot. Doubts not but, when we come
to a Committee, we shall find that the King is misled in
the manner of the Anticipations, and his House—And
that he may "eat bread," and support the Government,
and do what you desire, and a great overplus of the Revenue remain; would put the Question for the House to
go into a Committee, to make as much of this as we can.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] Should have been beholden
to Bucknal, if he would have given an account of this
sooner. Would have time given him, and the shortest,
that he may, in the House, or at a Committee of the
whole House, and believes we shall be all of a mind to
have what he proposes done.
Sir Henry Capel.] Is more concerned now than he was
before, since Bucknall spoke, that we are not ready for
a Vote. But since this Debate has been (which he thinks
irregular) would appoint this matter as a head to be part
of the Bill, and he will give his consent.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Differs from Capel. We are
ready for the main Question. Under a pretence of going
into a Committee, 'tis but to talk the same things over
again. Some gentlemen are against any Appropriation
(Was called to name them, and did.) Sir Charles Harbord, and Sir Winston Churchill.
Sir Winston Churchill.] Said, he is mistaken—He is
against it, till there is reason given that such a branch of
the Revenue is misapplied, as has been said. Till that
be, we ought not to appropriate.
Sir Tho. Littleton proceeds—As to arguments, that the
King could not "eat bread," he could name four or five
more that used them against the Appropriations. He
wonders that gentlemen are against it now, when we
heard not of them when the Bill of Appropriation passed.
But now they are to be annexed to this Bill, we hear of
them. The debts upon the Customs are made an argument also. When we were on the number of the ships,
the officers of the Exchequer desired time, and concluded
the Anticipation Money adjusted between seven and eight
hundred thousand pounds. Every one knows, that the
fine upon farming the Excise was 300,000l. Upon the
Chimney Farm, 100,000l. as a fore-rent; and he is informed, that the Excise may be let for double that fine.
So here is no hindrance from the King to take off these
Anticipations. And there remains 900,000l. per ann.
for the King to live on. Now, add the Wine-duty,
148,000l. or 150,000l. per ann. Chimney Money
150,000l. per ann. The Excise 550,000l. per ann.
The Law Bill 20,000 l. per ann. It may be a little
short. And the little branches of the Revenue make up
the rest 900,000l. per ann. Knows not what occasion
there is to have recourse to any farther examination.
Would conclude the matter, and spend no more time about
it—Afterwards we may come to a Committee of the
whole House; but why at the beginning of this business,
being not raising of money, but what was debated before, and so not necessary to spring from a Committee,
but from your Chair?
Sir Stephen Fox.] You are told, "That the Excise is
no otherwise anticipated than Bucknall's estate is for seven
years, for the maintenance of his wife and children."—
The Excise is anticipated to the end of the farm, for one
year. 'Tis said, there has been a great fine paid for it,
but that carries on the expence of the House, and the
forces. It was an advance, and no fine. A quarter, or
near half a year, 245,000l.—229,000l. paid at one slap
to the Navy; and 40,000l. to the Ordnance—Rises up
to tell gentlemen they are under a great mistake, the
tallies being only struck to January next—The Pensions
will not come to a quarter part of the expence of the House.
Sir Francis Drake.] Those that have eat out the Crown
Lands, he hopes, shall never eat out our Fleet too. He
hopes you will put the Question.
The Question for Candles passed in the affirmative, 147 to 131.
Mr Boscawen.] One candle may always be on the
table, when it grows dark, without a Question, and at
a division, that you may see who goes out, and who in.
Sir John Ernly.] Hears a great discourse "of Anticipations."—He knows not of some sorts, but possibly
they are not real. If you appropriate, before these Anticipations are discharged, you do nothing to the purpose.
Mr Sacheverell.] The last argument was, "That
something was charged on the Customs already; and,
therefore, not to appropriate all."—That may be some
reason why the Appropriation cannot commence so soon.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] All the argument that remains with him, is argument from fact, and he would
have that fact taken into consideration, relating to the
Sir John Duncombe.] The Question is now, of appropriating all the Customs. He did not expect this Debate; he did expect you would receive the state of the
Revenue, and he has it ready; and, when examined, you
will possibly be of another mind. Take the matter of
fact, and make yourselves judges of the subsistence and
Revenue of the Crown, laid before you, and you are
not till then ripe to judge. The Revenue itself is
1,300,000l. Then fee how much of the Revenue is
charged with Anticipations. There is between 7 and
800,000l. on the Customs. On the Excise alone there
is charged 590,000l. and odd money. On the Chimney
money 100,000l. and odd money. The Customs are
not charged in course and time, but are actually now
charged with 680,000l. With all this there is another
charge on the Excise, of the Queen's, and the Duke's,
This makes the Excise of no use, till the debt be eaten
out. The Customs, at a balance medium, are 600,000l.
per ann. The Chimney Money 151,000l. This makes,
with the Excise, about 1,300,000l. per ann. The Law
Bill is fallen to 20,000l. per ann. Some part of the
Revenue must be left for accidents of farming; and if
you take away the whole Customs, 150,000 l. out of
the Customs, and 100,000l. out of the Excise, all
that of the Customs is anticipated and received, and all
goes then away, and the King has not one shilling to live
on. To do so much, then, to him appears impossible.
Sir Courtney Poole.] Wonders that a gentleman of the
Long Parliament should interrupt Duncombe in his discourse, who knows Order so well.
Sir Edward Baynton.] Duncombe has been heard more
patiently to-day than any man, and wonders any man
should say he is interrupted. But will rather fit still,
than give the House an interruption—He came as fairly
into the Long Parliament, and went as fairly out, as any
Lord Cavendish.] He wonders that gentlemen should
speak of the Long Parliament, which was the author of
the most vexatious Tax upon the people that was ever
known. Reflecting upon the Chimney Money.
Mr Boscawen.] If he could know how the Fleet could
be maintained any way but by this Appropriation, unless
by Land Tax, he would not insist so much upon it.
Mr Powle.] This is no distrust of the King, but of
his Officers. 'Tis said, the King, by this Clause of Appropriation in the Money Bill, is not at liberty to receive the one, and reject the other. For that reason, he
is for it. To do more than we have, is but for so many
ships to lie by the walls.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Hears the Question asked, "How
the King shall be the better for this?"—This is a sure
way, that the Lords may come to a Conference—The
Lords may hinder the passing of the Bill—They are near
the King, and have Pensions—'Tis that the accounts of
this money may come hither, and that the money may
be for the King's use, and no reflection upon the King.
The Question being put, Whether the House would take the
state of the King's Revenue into consideration, it passed in the
negative, by 16 voices.
Mr Mallet.] The Parliament, in Edward the Third's
time, had a great kindness for him, and gave him money
with great caution, not that they mistrusted him, but a
woman, called Alice Pierce, whom they mistrusted.
Sir Lionel Jenkins.] If the King has a right, he has the
common right of all mankind, to be heard, before you
give any thing away from him; and they must answer
for what they do, as well as their meanest subjects—The
King may be satisfied of one Bill, and not of another,
and perhaps his Council is so too. If the Bills do not
agree, the King is under a dilemma of sin, as the casuists
say, of passing or refusing them.
Sir John Duncombe.] This will make a change of the
Government, and put men upon desperation—The King
may pay his debts by it, without being at the expence
of your charge. Wonders that this cloud, from the bigness of a man's hand, should thus cover the hemisphere.
He speaks this out of his faithfulness and zeal to the service of the nation. Would not have the Question put.
Col. Birch.] Says Duncombe, "This is a reflection
on the King, and a shaking the Government;" but finds
that all has been still supposition—He says, let him suppose too. Suppose there are Pensions upon the Customs,
and suppose petty farms, and let any body answer for
him, is it for the service or dis-service of the King? Or
is this distrust of him to set him at liberty from those
engagements, when he cannot in honour so well set his
own arms at liberty? Let any man show him a better
way to set the King at liberty, and he will hear him.
The Question being put, That the Bill for appropriating the
Customs to the use of the Navy shall be annexed to the Bill for
raising a Supply for the providing, equipping, and furnishing, the
twenty ships, it passed in the affirmative, 151 to 124. [And a
Committee was appointed to bring in the said Bills, so united and