Monday, February 19.
The Bill for regulating Elections, &c. brought in by Sir
George Reeves, February the 15th, was read a second time.
Mr Powle.] This Bill alters the constitution of the
House, and therefore is to be debated in a Committee
of the whole House. The penalties are strange in it,
Mr Sacheverell.] This Bill makes the Sheriff judge
of Elections, so as to return whom he pleases. The
person who stands not having the liberty to make use
of his own clerks to take the poll.
Sir Charles Harbord.] This Bill, instead of mending
the matter, turns us into slavery, so that no man can
know when he is safe.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Wishes that this Bill, or something of this nature, may pass. The last Session there
was read a clause in a paper against this excessive drinking
at Elections, and the Committee of Elections approved
of it. But we were prorogued, and nothing came of
it. Would have it read again, to be formed by the
Committee. The Lords expect their juries in a Bill
for their Tryals, and fears not to pass this Bill with
power to examine our witnesses upon oath. Till such
a Bill do pass, we have extraordinary trouble at the
Committee of Elections. Twenty Elections are now
depending, and he fears there will be thirty more vacant; twenty will be disputable. This evidence of
drinking fills most of his papers at that Committee, as
he is reporter, since he was in that service. The thing
looks not well abroad, and drinking men throw away
a child's portion at an Election, in the charge; and labourers, and good handicrafts-men, ruin their wives and
children by ill habits of drinking at those Elections.
Would read the last Vote of the Committee of Elections.
It was read accordingly, which see in this Volume page 4.
Mr Williams.] The abuse is so fatal, and so notorious at Elections, that to remedy it there is no method
so fair as a law. Would have the clause mentioned sent
to the Committee.
Col. Birch.] This paper comes now most seasonably in
thirty vacant Elections, and, he thinks, the nation would
have great satisfaction by printing and publishing it.
Else, if we stay for a Bill, all places will be filled up
before the Bill can pass. You are still masters of Elections, and may judge them accordingly. Corporations are ruined by this debauchery, and so ill habits
have been got, not else to be remedied. We must
either do it now, or never. Therefore would print it.
Lord Obrien.] Would have no man surprized by
the paper, &c. Would not have any man bound by
it, but from the time he receives it before the Election.
Sir Thomas Meres.] This instruction will not at all
reach the Elections now vacant, only that it shall be
hereafter so; and so there will be no surprize.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] You are masters of your own
Order. But 'tis hard that it should reach these Elections
in being. But 'twill be binding for the future, because
'tis in your power to judge, by that Order.
Mr Sacheverell.] Would now fill the blanks of the
sum which is not to be exceeded in entertainment before the Election, in this clause. Sometimes (he has
observed) drinking has been passed over at the Committee, and sometimes not. Therefore would fill up the
blanks with "five pounds."
Sir John Bramstone.] Essex is a great County, and the
Freeholders there come a great way to the Election.
Would have that considered in the Bill, that they may
not be debarred reasonable refreshment.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] The thing is done presently,
therefore would not have the House spend a whole day
in it. Moves therefore, that, at the Committee, all
that come may have voices, which is, in effect, a Committee of the whole House.
Col. Birch.] Is for referring it to the Committee,
but if we lose the season of doing it, we lose the thing
Would therefore have it to-morrow the first thing at the
Committee, and have it reported.
It was committed for Wednesday.
Heads of the Bill for recalling his Majesty's subjects in the
French service [which was read the first time.]
"That service is against the interest of the Kingdom—The
person remaining in that service after time shall not be capable of being an executor, nor have the benefit of any settlement of lands, and the next of kin shall enter—If he return not
by a day, he shall be proceeded against as a felon, in the King's
Bench, or in the County where he shall be apprehended, and
shall be tried as a felon—The King shall have no power to
pardon him, but by Act of Parliament, and, by name particularly inserted in that Act, with a saving of dower to his wife.
And the Act to continue for one year."
Sir Thomas Meres.] There is nothing more useful for
the nation, than that the person so offending should be a
felon. He started at it at first, but there is the same clause
in the last Bill the last Session. Now there is not time
to speak to the particulars of the Bill—It was our interest once to apprehend the growing greatness of Spain,
as 'tis now of France. Moves that the Bill may have
a second reading on Wednesday next.
It was ordered accordingly.
Col. Birch.] Presents a Petition, of Mr Bernard
Howard and Mr Edward Howard, wherein they intreat the House to consider their condition. Thomas
Duke of Norfolk [their brother] is detained at Padua
—Remembers the person by this token; that we formerly had it in consideration, that he was carried from
the North to the South to cure him of lunacy—Desires
that the Petition may be read.
Mr Garroway.] Would have the Petitioners called in
to see whether they will own the Petition.
They were called in and owned the Petition, subscribed Bernard Howard, Edward Howard, and Alexander Mackdonnell
(fn. 1) , who
married their sister.
The Petition was then read, setting forth "That the Duke
of Norfolk is confined to Padua by the Earl of Norwich, (his
next brother,) and the trustees for the Duke. In 1653, he
was found a lunatic with lucid intervals. The Earl of Norwich, Earl Marshal, is his next heir, who is barred by law from
his guardianship. He has had the custody of his person and estate,
and the Duke is detained in a hot country, in Italy—Waste is
made of his woods, and conveyances of his estate have been made
by him, and fines levied—The Earl wishes the Duke's death—A
great prejudice to the family !—The Earl is tenant in tail, and he
may settle the lands of the Earldom upon such issue as he pleases,
to the detriment of his lawful issue by the Lady Anne, sister to the
Marquess of Worcester. Their sister, Lady Elizabeth Mackdonnell's estate determines upon the Duke's death. The rest of the
Petitioners are not concerned, but only to prevent waste and destruction of the estate. From such guardians they hope not for any
redress, but by the desire of the House to the King for remedy.
They pray that the House will be a means to prevail with his Majesty, that the custody of the person of the Duke may be put
into such hands of the family, as may give security for his safety and estate, and that the person of the Duke may be brought
Col. Birch.] When he received and presented this
Petition, he thought it reasonable to take this Duke
from a place rather able to make him mad, than recover him. The reason of England, and (he thinks)
the law too, is, that the guardian who has the custody
of the person, should not be the nearest relation expectant. 'Twas thought reasonable here, three years
since, when this business was moved here before, and
moves it now, that he may be in the hands of persons, whose interest it is to preserve him.
Mr Onslow.] If the Lord Marshal were heard, he
would well acquit himself of this charge, as he has already done to the King, and Lords of the Council.
The Marquess of Worcester and himself (Onslow) are guardians to the Duke, and 'tis held by good opinions, that 'tis
to hazard his life to remove him from the place where
he is. There are several brothers concerned before
Bernard Howard, but Lady Elizabeth Mackdonnell
being persuaded that great matters may be done for
her, a suit has been in law, and her share of the estate
is good for her life, so that her husband may not have
it after her decease. And he will undertake, that, if
she will give the Lord Marshal a good acquittance for
the money she has already received, their annuities shall
be paid. The Trustees are ready to give an account,
when it shall be called for—The Duke lives in a palace at Padua, and he is well maintained, and in Protestant hands.
Sir William Coventry.] Is sorry for this difference
in a noble family. The House, he believes, will not
trouble themselves with law suits. He has heard that
by inquisition he has been found a lunatic, but the Duke
was abroad then, and he is now kept in a country not
very proper for his distemper. He was placed, 'tis
said, by his grandfather there, but that was in the time
of the troubles, and all that was dear to that family
they carried away beyond sea with them. The Petition informs you "that fines have been levied, since
he was found a lunatic, and said to be against law."
But he has sat here when fines have been questioned
and made void, (Bodvill's case) and nothing less than
a Parliament could undo it. If that appears to be so,
it has not been well done—But now this Duke's being
in the custody of those who have the Lord Marshal's
directions, (the heir expectant) is the case. He
apprehends no danger of that in a man of his honour;
but when things of this nature come before you,
he beseeches you to countenance the law of England,
and, for the sake of others, see how far the particulars
of the Petition can be made out. If the Duke be under a guardian, 'tis not against law, but for "levying of the fines" 'tis sit to enquire into, and whether
Lady Elizabeth Mackdonnell's estate depends upon
the Duke's life—And she implores your assistance, for
fear of being out of the reach of the law. He never
yet heard that the Duke had that imbecillity of body,
as not to endure a voyage, but, if it appears to you
impossible to bring him over without danger, then consider it. But put it in a way of examination and enquiry, and, when that shall be stated, then you are ripe
Mr Onslow.] As for the fines; all he knows of
the Duke's, levied as a lunatic, were destroyed, and what
the petitioners claim were under these fines.
Mr Powle.] Finds that the Duke has been a lunatic
ever since the 30th of July 1653. Several sines since that
were levied, as in Hilary term 1653, Trinity term 1654,
Easter 1654. There is sure some great defect, if
fines pass by infants, minors, and persons non sanæ mentis. There ought to be the greatest care of this imaginable. How are "wastes complained of" in the
Petition? If this Lord Marshal's children fail, the next
brothers are the heirs. He knows both the guardians, but believes them only titular, and nothing of
their consent has been in these things. But since it
is before you, would have the matter enquired into,
and the true state of it represented to you.
Mr Garroway.] 'Tis a strange thing that five sines
should have been levied, and the trustee, Onslow, know
nothing of it. Would appoint a Committee to enquire
into the matter of fact.
Mr Onslow.] All these sines were levied before he
was guardian to the Duke.
It was ordered to be referred to a Committee.
Mr Sacheverell brought in a Bill against illegal exaction of
money, &c. making it high treason, &c.
[It was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time.]
Leave was asked by Mr Wharton to go to the Lords for
permission to go to see his father [Lord Wharton] prisoner in
Lord Cavendish.] It is against our Privilege to be debarred access to those Lords; and there is a gentleman
(describing myself (fn. 2) ) who has business of consequence
with one of these Lords committed to the Tower.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Hears these Lords are in arctâ
custodiâ. He has heard of a Peer in custody in the
Tower, and his wife intra quatuor maria, and brought
to bed after her husband had been a year in custody.
Though the Lord was kept a close prisoner, the law
judged the child legitimate, because no arcta custodia
can exclude a wife from her husband.
The Speaker.] If Clarges speaks of the Lords commitment, 'tis not now before us. We know not the
warrants, nor cause of their commitment, and by this
Debate we may begin a new breach with the Lords,
Sir Thomas Lee.] Would have no Question upon our
books, whether Mr Wharton shall have leave, or not,
&c. to see his father. He believes that no body will
make scruple of asking the King leave, or the Lords;
but would have nothing of it upon our books.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] He speaks for the Lords
sake in the Tower. We know not what prejudice may
arise to the Lords, by such accesses as these.
It went off, without a Question.
The House having been informed of Sir Thomas Strickland's
conviction of recusancy (fn. 3) , and been moved for a writ to be issued out to chuse a Knight for Westmorland, in his stead, Ordered the record of his conviction to be brought in by the
Clerk of the Crown: And
The Speaker informed the House.] That, by the record, it appears that he stood convicted of recusancy, according to the form of the Statute, but whether he be
the same Sir Thomas Strickland, Member of the House;
appears hot. He is named in the record "Sir Thomas Strickland, of Bradford, in the County of York,
Sir William Coventry.] He has known this gentleman
many years before he sat here. For common respect,
especially for one who has sat so long amongst us, would
give him some time, though not by way of summons.
It may else possibly be an inconvenience to his fortune;
but if he come not, in some reasonable time, to give
an account of himself, would send out a new writ, to
chuse another Member in his stead; but would do it
without summons so him.
Mr Powle.] We cannot be too careful, when we
are about to expell a Member, especially when we remember that a minor part has once expelled a major
in the Long Parliament. This gentleman may be con
victed, and possibly know nothing of it. As for summoning of him, and that attested here at the Bar, there
can be no inconvenience; for he may absent himself,
and you may take it pro confesso; and go solemnly to
summoning him, and, if he appear not, then send
a new writ to elect a Member in his stead.
Sir Thomas Meres.] 'Tis properly no "summons,"
but "notice," to give the thing a more easy word.
Mr Whorwood.] Is as tender as any man for this
gentleman, but thinks such scruples strange. He is
fortunate that he has escaped this enquiry so long, and
sat here without expulsion—Would therefore have a
summons plainly sent to him, and if thereupon he comes
not, he wishes him gone.
Sir John Birkenhead.] He (Strickland) has taken the
Oath of Allegiance and Supremacy here, at his first
admission, and the former he will take, and the Lords
are not obliged to the other.
Sir Thomas Lee.] 'Tis strange that Birkenhead should
proffer you any thing against law. Both Oaths are to
be taken here.
The Speaker was ordered to give Sir Thomas Strickland notice
by letter accordingly.
Tuesday, February 20.
The King's Speech was read.
Mr Neale.] In such things as are grateful both to
King and people, our fault will be great, if we
neglect to do them. The King's Speech has several
parts. The King tells us, "That we may be secure
of Religion, and Property, and he will gratify us with
good laws for better security." What more can be expected from a most gracious King? Since we have his
royal word for it, we are bound in duty, before we
exact any farther promise from him, to gratify his Majesty, in avoiding all differences with the Lords; and
hopes we shall. The next is in building Ships, so absolutely necessary for the safety of the Kingdom, whilst
our neighbours are stronger in shipping than we are, if
we measure strength; and he would provide at least two
or three years store. The last Session, the twenty ships
you voted were valued at 300,000l. a competent sum,
'twas then believed, and we can do no otherwise now
than give 100,000l. stores and cordage considered. He is altogether unwilling to give more than
is necessary, but willing to do the work presently, and
moves for 600,000l. for a present Supply to the King
for building of Ships.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Speaks to Order. He will put you
in mind of the course and method of Parliament.
Neale has named a sum to grant the King, which is
irregularly done. You, by Order, must appoint a day
for the Committee of the whole House to consider the
King's Speech, which regularly cannot be to day—If
you can, defer your resolution, for the King and Kingdom's satisfaction, that we may go into the Country.
He speaks to method only. He would not lose the
method of Parliament.
Sir William Drake.] Seconds the motion for 600,000l.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] You cannot enter into a Grand
Committee to day. You must, by Order, appoint another day.
Sir Joseph Tredenham.] This motion is not so irregular as 'tis made to be. He differs from those who say
"that no sum to be granted, &c. ought to be mentioned in the House, but in a Grand Committee." We
have had reflections upon the power of France increased, and that of Spain decreased, and our alliances
broken. Thinks all these things of power sufficient
to persuade us, for our security, to assist the King in
strengthening himself; and moves for 600,000l.
Mr Waller.] He has known money given in the
House without going into a Grand Committee. The
strengthening the fleet is mentioned in two places of
the King's Speech, and in two places of the Lord Chancellor's. He would have a fleet; but would have the
strength of it to be measured by comparison with our
neighbours. They increase their ships, and we are at
a stand. We have formerly sent to our neighbours,
when we were uppermost, to build no more ships. They
may do so by us. Now he would provide against dangers nearest us. The Chancellor, in his Speech, says,
"we can have no peace without unity at home, and
let us take heed of jealousies and fears." But the Chancellor finds us sick, and bids us be well. He tells us
no causes of them, and no remedies for them. What
reason the Chancellor has for it he knows not, but
the greatest he knows is, that public money is not employed to public uses—Would make all the haste in
giving the King Ships, without the ceremony of going into a Grand Committee. He moves that the Bill
for the Customs, given for the maintenance of the Navy, may be employed for building Ships: Your honour is concerned in it, and the safety of the nation;
and moves for that Bill brought in the last Session to
Mr Leveson Gowèr.] The first thing recommended
to us in the King's Speech is Religion, but that without a Navy is not safe. He thinks the motion good
below, but would have 200,000l. more; it is the least
we can do, under the great difficulties we are in. The
motion is reasonable, and no man is a good patriot, a
good subject, or good Christian, that will be against
it. He does in this as he would be done by.
Mr Sacheverell.] Moves to Order. Proffers that the
Orders may be read, to see whether we can go into a
Debate, against a regular express Order.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Wonders where we are when we
are against this ancient Order. He hopes no man will
produce things done ten years ago—All was paid off,
and all was clear, but 600,000l. debt a gentleman
then told you of. Says another gentleman, "then
give 1,200,000l." with his hat on, irregularly. This
way of motion by those gentlemen is bidding at gleek.
In those days when this Order was broken, money was
plentiful, and the revenue was less, and much of that
money was for the King to build his Houses, and other
occasions, when he was but lately restored—But this
is bidding at gleek. Mr Prynne was once in the Chair,
for that purpose, and reported the forms and methods
our ancestors went by anciently, and by precedents,
constantly, "grievances" were considered before "giving of money." He sees it has been a rule, that no
sooner "money" has been got, but "grievances"
were set aside.
Mr Swynfin.] 'Tis a constant Order, that when the
gentleman (Sacheverell) desires an Order may be read,
(which is a continuation of what he intends to speak,
and apply himself to especially when in order to the
matter in Debate) when 'tis read, any man may speak
against it; but it must be read. A gentleman cannot
be denied the reading an Order, when he desires it to
be read, for the better making out his argument.
Sir George Downing.] This is a fundamental Order,
that when any man stands up to speak, the Clerk cannot read an Order out of the Journal.
Sir William Coventry.] If Tredenham speaks to Orders,
he would then be heard.
The Order was read, viz. "A charge upon the people being moved for in the House, 'twas adjourned to another day,
for the Committee of the whole House to consider of it, and
not presently to be entered upon, but a day was appointed for
it, and referred to the Committee."
Sir Joseph Tredenham.] He stood up in justification
of the movers of the sum, and so they and he are both
at your mercy. It has been the practice formerly, not
to go by these wary steps. This morning he looked
into the Journal, and finds a subsidy voluntarily embraced in the House, 1 Elizabeth, and a subsidy unasked by the Queen, April, 1571. Rolle and Newdigate, enquirers after divers other motions of Ecclesiastical matters, and concerning officers embezzling money, were appointed Commissioners for drawing a Bill
(which was granted) for the subsidy, and all the Privy
Counsellors of the House were of the Committee.
Mr Williams.] Newdigate then represented several
Grievances, and offered a Supply as an accommodation,
and therefore 'twas by way of commutation, and both
the Grievances; and the Subsidy were referred to Commissioners at the same time.
Sir Thomas Meres.] In order to this matter, you
must search higher in the Journal. But in this, and
all other matters, about Orders, there was a Report
made, when Mr Prynne was in the Chair. No less than
ten or twelve Journals were brought to the Committee,
in the Speaker's Chamber, and you will not find any
precedent, but for all the money the people gave
there was a retribution—It looks as if we were sent
here to make pacts. Aids and redress of Grievances
ever went together. Be this what it will, let this Order be revived. Your Clerk has not entered into the
Journal the grounds upon which your vote was made,
upon that Report. But, he believes, there are six instances for one to the contrary.
Sir Charles Harbord.] He comes not here to do the
French King's business—But would not have an Order
pressed too hard for our conservation.
The Speaker.] This very Order was gone against
the next Session after it was made.
Sir Thomas Lee.] That Session the Order was made
in, it was not read—'Twas three years after it was read,
and it was done upon precedents and view of the Journals. No man "presses," but to go on upon this business to-morrow—If building of Ships be of such necessity that we must break Order for it, he cannot
think keeping that Order can hinder it. The last Session,
we did not proceed so, and that method has been kept
ever since you, Mr Speaker, came into the Chair.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] In Queen Elizabeth's time
'twas not taken to be irregular, and 'tis plain that this
last Order that seems to propose a contrary method,
has been set aside, as not necessary, (as the Speaker
said.) The thing is entirely at the pleasure of the
House, to keep that Order, or not. He moves that
you may consider the whole motion, as Neale made
it, for a Supply for his Majesty, and the quantum according to that motion.
The Speaker reads the Order. "A motion being made for a
Supply for the King, and a motion, likewise for a Grand Committee to consider of it, according to Order, 1669. Resolved in
the affirmative against that order."
Sir Thomas Meres.] 'Twas an extraordinary time,
when this Order was not kept. But the next time 'twas
exactly obeyed. Lord Chief Justice Vaughan then
moved for a royal Navy, when the war was ended, and
we gave money for it; but had no Navy about the
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Since this Order was made,
money was given in another method. The party that
moved for it then was a man of great honour, and
much for the liberty of his country. Yesterday there
was a Bill read, (he believes that the intention of it
was good) for recalling the troops out of France—Long
since 'twas thought the balance was unequal, and would
have you have the honour of making it equal—Would
not have two or three high words to do it; and 'tis
but the recall of 1200 men, whereas the French have
eighty battallions of foot, 800 in a battallion. They will
have 40,000 men in a body, this campaign—Such a
neighbour is considerable when so nigh us—But would
not render the King contemptible, by a word, or
a vote, to greaten the French King. After a vote of
standing by your King, if you pass no vote to make
him considerable, you put him into great streights by
this Bill of recalling these men out of France, and
yet give him no strength by a Bill of Supply.
Mr Vaughan.] When we contend for money, it puts
him in mind of country fellows going to foot-ball
play, or any such country sport. They get up early,
though possibly all the sport may end in breaking their
shins, and tearing their cloaths. One gentleman moves
for one sum, another for another—But no man lays
out his money, before he has contrived a model for
his house. Therefore would resolve into a Grand Committee, and then 'tis proper to name a sum. These
early motions are as if these movers were the only
givers, and that others not so forward were the deniers. Therefore moves for a Grand Committee.
Sir Thomas Meres.] "November 3, 1669. Resolved,
That the House go into a Grand Committee to consider of the motion for the King's supply," and no sum
was then named. There is nothing in that Bill that can
give offence to the French King. 'Tis only that we
have people there whom we want here, and no provocation is given to any Prince by it.
Sir Henry Capel.] Here is Order produced in opposition to Order. If it be the opinion of every man that
we are strong enough, and unanimous enough, it is of
more consequence than all the money we can give;
but would not rise without some vote, nor without doing something in this business.
Mr Powle.] He sees we are pressed with great
haste to give a Supply. He wonders at the arguments
used for it. He hears urged, "the greatness of France,
and apprehensions of her making a peace with Holland."
But would see who labours for that peace. We are told
of "eighty battallions," and, for ought he knows, twenty
of them may be English. We are told now of "the
necessity of this Supply," and twelve months ago, we
were told so. Would know how the King and the
House are dealt with in it. You are told "that once
the first thing named was Supply," but 'twas contrary
to Order. One great reason is, that formerly Supply was
named, at a Grand Committee, and therefore it ought to
be so now. Formerly, giving of subsidy was the last thing
done in Parliament, and, in time of Popery, the Bill
was solemnly offered at the Altar, at high mass, at the
end of the Session. There is great reason for keeping
this Order. If the King has no supply till Grievances
are redressed, 'tis a reason why we may hope for no
Grievances in intermission of Parliament, and make the
King willing to redress them, if there be no way to
come to a Supply, till Grievances be redressed. If some
fears be, whether a supply will tend to the greatening
or lessening our great neighbour, it will make persons
cautious how they give—Moves for a Grand Committee, as before.
Mr Pepys.] If that Supply be given in exchange of
removal of Grievances, the consequence will be, that
the King that gives the first Grievances, shall have no
Supply. "Imminent dangers do grow daily," 'tis said.
But who contributed to them? He can answer for himself. Dangers are particularly from the marine part—
Therefore moves that you will not let this day pass
without supplying the King, for removal of such dangers.
Sir Robert Carr.] Since the House seems to incline
to go on to-morrow morning upon the Supply, understands not why we should spend more time in Debate.
He therefore moves that to-morrow morning, at ten of
the clock, the House may take into consideration the
Sir Harbottle Grimstone.] 'Tis dangerous to take away
that liberty of Debate at a Grand Committee about
Supply. To-morrow he shall agree to the consideration
of his Majesty's Speech, not consinedly to any particular branch of it, but at large. There is great doubt
concerning these precedents of giving "Supply" and
"Grievances." He craves leave to speak to the one as
well as to the other. He wishes he may have the skill
and luck to hit the matter, and doubts both, and will
try both. He is against giving either "Supply" or
"Grievances" the preference. He is for going the
old Parliamentary way, hand in hand. If Grievances
lie dozing upon the table, after Supply is given, it
may be we may stir and jog them, but to no effect.
He knows his own thoughts, that exitus acta probat,
and finis coronat opus—The result of this Parliament,
will either put us into an ecstacy of joy, or put us into
confusion; but he hopes all may be well at last. But
people's purses will not be opened without redress of
Grievances. He may say, that we have Grievances,
and heart-aching ones too. We are lost in the thick
mist of foreign counsels, and there is no ending in
error. He thinks fit to be plain, but would have the
Question to be this: "Whether we shall give money
for ships, till our home-bred, in-bred grievances be
redressed." Would have that to be the Question, to
know other mens minds—We must strengthen peoples
hearts, before we can lighten their purses, and if he
knew a better way to propose, you should have it.
Sir John Ernly.] No nation is without Grievances
—But we are at peace—And no man's property is attacked. He moves for "to-morrow at ten of the
clock to consider the King's Supply."
Sir Thomas Littleton.] He is for giving money for
Ships, and enough, but for Ships only, and for no
other purposes—This of recall of the English forces
out of France is no manner of breach with France—
Men going over to the Dutch service is not on the
same foot, for they go not in violation of any treaty
against any confederation. But that Papist officers
should be recommended from this place, put that into
the Bill, if you please. But we put no shock upon
France by having our forces in Holland, by any treaty
we have made with France—In giving money now, he
would put it into the power of those who have been
the authors of this counsel (of assisting France) to
save the nation, and pray God avert the dangers of
Sir William Coventry.] Moves to keep close to the
Order mentioned. He is sensible how France grows
great, and would have had that greatness stopped a year
ago. You are not now upon giving money, but only
upon method—Would therefore put the Question for
"to-morrow morning to consider the matter of the
King's Speech relating to Supply."
Mr Garroway.] He is no friend to King or king,
dom, that would stifle the motion about Grievances.
Let Supply and them go hand in hand, every other
day, and you will have reasons, by that, for and against
more or less Supply.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Temple put "Grievances and
Mon y"—As to "Money" he would not have too
much given, for fear of too many "Grievances"—As
you have been already told, he would have Thursday
for redress of those Grievances, and not to talk of them
Friday was voted for Grievances.