Monday, February 26.
Sir Lewis Palmer.] Complained, the other day, of a
bailiff who had arrested his servant, and having obtained an Order to bring the bailiff in custody to answer the breach of Privilege, he now desires the Order
may be recalled, having discharged the person from his
service, understanding he was not sit for him, being in
many incumbrances and debts.
Mr Powle.] 'Tis more for the honour of the House
to retract an Order, than to persist in doing injustice.
You sent for the Warden of the Fleet to bring Sir John
Prettyman to the Bar—Every man in bail, is in custody of the Law still. Every man that is a prisoner to
this House, is under protection of the House. Would
reverse your Order, and order the Keeper of the
Compter to keep this prisoner still.
Serjeant Maynard.] Would take off Privilege from
this man, and let him remain in prison where he is.
Sir Richard Temple.] Would punish the person for
taking this man against the Privilege of the House;
and then overthrow your Order, and he is where he
Mr Sawyer.] The Question is, "Whether you will
extend your Privilege to release this man in prison,"
now you are fully apprized, that this person has deluded your Member. Privilege will destroy all mankind, if made use of to take a man out, and put him
again into prison.
The Speaker.] Now the case is upon enquiry, Palmer has found himself circumvented in taking this servant. The House should have right in it, and the
first Order be preserved.
Sir Lewis Palmer said] He knew nothing of this
person's being either under bail or imprisonment; the
person pretending only some troubles, and craved his
protection, and had it; but when he was better informed, he discharged him his service.
Sir Harbottle Grimstone.] No Member's retaining a
person for his servant does discharge that person from
prison; and no Privilege was ever allowed for a
Member's retaining a servant in prison. Though he is
but upon bail, yet he is in custodiâ legis, and there is
no breach of Privilege in the first taking a man so bailed, or detaining him. He would have the man left
where he was.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Would not have a precedent for a
thing complained of formerly—The Order is, " A complaint being made for detaining a servant of Palmer's,
&c."—The Order was issued out to free him—But afterwards it appearing that the Member had discharged him
his service, and that he was no more his servant, the
House does discharge him.
Agreed to accordingly.
Tuesday, February 27.
A Bill for exportation of leather was read.
Serjeant Maynard brought in a Bill for making void the bonds
taken of the present incumbent by the patron, for resigning, after he has been settled a year.
Mr Boscawen.] The Law has declared this to be no
Simony. A bond is taken to resign. Possibly, one
may be presented very unfit—Yet it has been judged
no Simony to do it. He would prevent Simony really practised through the nation. If a man takes two
livings, or be non-resident, it is lawful to take a bond
for resigning. If you'll make a law against having two
benefices, or pluralities, he would be for such a Bill, otherwise would throw this out.
Sir Edward Dering.] Would have a Law not to sell
the next avoidance, and what else may be properly
added to this Bill, and retain it.
The Speaker.] The not reading a Bill a second time
is a rejection of it, without putting any farther Question.
The Bill was rejected, [147 to 62.]
In a Grand Committee on the Supply. Sir Richard Temple in
Sir Joseph Tredenham.] We are to consider the way
to raise this Supply. He cannot think himself so happy as to find a medium to show you the way, but it will
be most for your service to place it upon such happy
mediums as may be real, and not imaginary. He can
think of no other than a Land Tax. For this money is
for the defence of our land. We sit here not in our
own rights, but as trustees for the people, and for them
nothing can be better than providing capital ships.
He proposes that we give it by Land Tax, at the rate
of 35000l. per month, for eighteen months, to answer
Sir John Hanmer.] The last time 300,000l. was
proposed for building ships, &c. by a Land Tax, and
no other possible way could be found out. Moves,
that this sum may be raised so from three months to
three months, in eighteen months.
Col. Birch. The Order was read, "to proceed in
the farther consideration of his Majesty's Supply." The
Order leads you not into Tredenham's Debate. He
tells you of a way of raising it, which is a thing quite
of another nature. Would you go the nearest way to
your end? If you intend "to proceed farther," which
are the words of the Order, then you must go through
that, having the whole Supply before you; which if
we have not, we must go another way. If any thing
farther of Supply be offered, would hear it, and have
a clear resolution, whether you will consider only the
manner of raising this 600,000l. or go farther, "to
consider the King's Speech in what relates to Supply."
Sir Thomas Meres.] Would have the paragraph of
the King's Speech relating to an additional Supply of
his Revenue, and to make him more easy, read. There
are in it three expressions for money. " 1st, for ships;
2dly, for an additional Revenue, (it seems, that of
the Excise was given to pay debts, but whether paid,
or no, he knows not) and 3dly, for his ease, &c." Never was Revenue in this House asked and given for
payment of debts. The preamble of that Act for the
additional Excise will show you that that was given for
payment of debts; and 'twas then said, Trust the King.
But the thing was not done—No debts were paid.
Land Tax insensibly pulls down all rents. He knows
not the reason, but he affirms they do fall. He assigns one great cause (though one little help was in
the Corn clause, when we gave 1,250,000l. that helped a little) Wool gives nothing, sheep make no profit.
When you say that that is the Question, whether you
will give a tax upon this Excise for future years, he
will then give you his thoughts upon it. Before you
lay the pack on the horse, he would know what you'll
put in it. Would lay every thing before you. Land
Tax is a melancholy thought, and should be the last for
our consideration. He then offered words, but 'twas
late, and we were weary, and lest the weariness of
mankind should throw away the Question, he pressed
it not. If a gentleman do insist on the Excise, let us
reason it for the good of England.
The Speaker.] By the Order read, the Motion was
made for Supply for building ships, and by that Order the Motion was first made in the House, and then
the Committee was to consider of it, as you formerly
did. Till then, we were not warranted to proceed at
the Committee. So that now here's nothing to consider, but having resolved the sum, and the ships to be
built, you consider the method of raising it. If Meres
has any other method than Land Tax to raise this sum,
he would do good service in showing it.
Sir Thomas Meres.] The sum was not made in the
House, nor the manner of raising it, but at the Committee. The Motion was made formerly in the House,
and nothing was before us but Supply in general.
The Committee have showed you a disposition to supply, but "farther," is what the Committee may consider. 'Tis not in nature of the manner of burthening
the people, till you will say how much you will lay
Mr Secretary Coventry.] You have proceeded by paragraphs, and have voted one 600,000l. but not how
'tis to be raised. Therefore would be off from that,
before you go to another thing. The Question being
naturally "how you'll raise it, and how your Vote shall
be made effectual." As if a servant should be sent a
journey by his master, and asks him money for his
journey, and his master should answer him, "the Devil take me if I give you any money to buy cloaths!"
If this money come short, the ships cannot be built.
Chimney-money, by a great Member, was valued at
600,000l. per ann. and 'tis fallen to 140,000l. Would
have this money so surely laid, as to be raised, and he
knows no way to do it, but by Land Tax.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Temple (as Chairman) ought to
sit down when any gentleman speaks, and not to enter
into the Debate.
Sir Harbottle Grimstone.] Sees the intention of the
Debates in the precedency of the Question, which is
proper to take into consideration. 'Tis said, if this be
all the Tax to be given, there's no great difficulty—
But he would know all, because we are to dispose of
all. That of Secretary Coventry's "man to go a journey" may be answered with a Question—One borrows
money, not for cloaths, but asks money; says he, "if
you promise me you'll borrow no more, I'll lend you
some." Would know what is the need of more money?
They do you the best service that show you all the
ways for doing it, for the ease of the people, and
would know whether this be all that is demanded.
Sir Robert Carr.] That Question is proper for the
House. In the mean time would proceed by Land
Tax for this sum, 600,000l.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] The manner is always expressed
in the Orders. But to-day the Order is " for farther
consideration of the King's Supply." The last time,
we were told, we had 150 ships then all ready; and
300,000l. was granted for building twenty more,
and this sum will do for forty. Therefore would not
lose time, but proceed to the farther consideration of
the King's Speech.
Sir George Downing.] To Order only, a Question is
offered, Whether you'll give more than 600,000l. If
put, every man is free. If carried in the affirmative,
What Order have you to give more? Has any such
thing ever been propounded in the House? And 'tis
a fine way, by a side wind, to engage the House, to
give more money.
Mr Garroway.] Will you put us to it, that one sum
of money shall be raised here, and another in the
House? One sum for a Poll Bill, and another for Excise? Can we, at this rate, tell which way in the world
to give?—Here is a way wanting in the Order to raise
it. If your Orders are too short, let the Speaker take
the Chair, and enlarge them.
Sir John Ernly.] He doubts you cannot regularly
do it in a Committee, and would have every man have
his satisfaction, and the Speaker take the Chair.
Sir Thomas Meres.] You must know for what to go
to the House; whether for their leave for farther Proceedings.
The Speaker.] It seems, the Question at the Committee is, whether they shall consider of another Supply for the King. There is a difference betwixt the
King's Supply and a Supply for the King.
Mr Swynsin.] "To proceed to the farther consideration of the King's Supply," is the Order, and would
keep close to that—Would not enter into the merits,
but only consider the Order.—The matter of Supply.—
The Order is to govern the Committee in all things—
But there is no such Order from the House as to consider the manner of raising it. This still restrains it to
the matter of Supply, and we must follow the directions of the House.—We have considered so far as
600,000l or more, but not the manner of raising it. What
is more natural than to consider first of the matter, and
then a farther consideration of the manner? The only
reason why the Speaker should take the Chair is, to
shorten Debates concerning the Order.—Without any
manner of Question, would have the Speaker take
the Chair; else you will determine the thing by a Question here, before you come to the House.
Mr Sawyer.] Differs from Swynsin. He would have
no jealousies, &c.
Sir Thomas Meres.] He knows not where the jealousies are; there are more to be feared. If other men
are for the Excise, he is not.
Mr Garroway.] Is jealous there has been a design
two or three ways, to pass this off our hands, to give
more money—Would not be hobbled upon any account—Would at once see how much money we are
Sir Tho. Lee.] His jealousy is to continue such a revenue, to bring on such a war as the last, which was occasioned by such a sum. 'Tis proper to put the Question to this
effect; Whether the Committee think it fit to grant any
farther time, in the Excise of 9d. and 6d.? If so, to save
your lands thereby, and raise 600,000l. that way.
Mr Powle.] The Debate first entered into the manner of the Supply. Now the Question is before us—
The matter must be decided before the manner. The
Question is now, whether the Committee intend to
continue the Excise for a farther time, or not? It affected land more than direct Land Tax. If continued,
and Land Tax loaden too, the nation cannot bear it.
Sir John Ernly.] Would have directions, but the
Speaker to take the Chair. He thinks Powle's arguments very disproportionable; if it did affect, as he
says, he would not have laid out so much money in
a late purchase of lands he has made, as he has done.
Sir Adam Brown.] He believes the Excise does not
affect Land Tax. With him, in Surry, malt gives a
good price, because 'tis exported. He wonders how
so many alehouses should be, if they are so vexed and
grieved by the Excise, as is said. Men are grown
poorer rather by ill husbandry, than any thing else.
Mr Sacheverell.] He thinks, by the arguments he
has heard, that we shall enter into the Debate, Whether the Excise be a charge upon the people. He
takes the Excise to be a Land Tax already. 13d. on
every bushel is 6s. and 6d. on every hogshead of beer
or ale. An acre of corn of three quarters of barley,
is 20s. by the Excise, upon the acre. Would ask the
officers of the Excise a question; Whether, when corn
did rise, when so many thousands left brewing, if
the charge laid was so much less, the consumption being less? If so, the Tax upon corn and land would be
Sir Charles Harbord.] The Excise in Holland weakens
not the purses of the subjects.
Sir George Downing.] No man has propounded the
Excise for a way to build ships. If so, then Sacheverell spoke apropos.
Sir Thomas Lee.] This Question excludes nothing of
the raising the 600,000l. but hopes it will of the
The Speaker.] If any man proposes this sum to be
raised by Excise, then 'tis a proper Question.—But
'twas never known that a Committee rose without a
vote. When once you resolved to supply, no instance
can be given, that the manner was not proceeded in
—'Till you know by a Question—That should be all.
Sir Thomas Meres.] This is a new Question. 600,000l.
is a great Supply in time of peace; what then must it
be in war?—We are told how near we are to it.—
Take that Motion then, and go to the House for farther Supply. But why shall we not keep our Chairman, Temple? (jeeringly) We like him very well—'Tis
for no other end but to explain our Order, if we
change our Chairman—He would above-board know
whether this Excise be to be given, though he is not
for it—Yet when known how we shall proceed, he will
argue accordingly—He would fain be gone. He loves
not sitting long here, for fear of giving yet more.
Mr Sacheverell.] Is not for Temple's leaving the Chair,
but thinks the Committee has authority to put the
Question, whether this of the Excise is a revenue or
duty, (he thinks 'tis neither; he calls it rather an imposition) that shall be continued.
Col. Birch.] He did not believe this Debate would
have held you so long. You are moved to raise this
money by Land Tax. Says another gentleman, "No,
if you continue the Excise, you charge the Land
double." No Question can be put, but whether the
Question shall be put, or no.
Sir Edward Dering.] The Question is, Whether
'twas the sense of the House that we should proceed upon
the manner of raising this money, or whether proceed
farther upon the continuation of the Excise?
Sir Thomas Lee.] Every way was proposed and debated formerly, in the raising the 1,600,000l. The
Question is not now upon Supply, but the manner of
raising it. If you continue the Excise, 'tis another
manner of raising the money.
Mr Boscawen.] Some talk of Land Tax, and some
of Excise. Upon wool and corn is Land Tax, but
Excise more.—A multitude of officers attend the Excise, but would rather chuse the Excise, than both
Land Tax and Excise. If gentlemen will have but
one of them, let them chuse.—He believes them both
Mr Waller.] Here is a jealousy that the Excise should
be the Question, which is not to be removed but in the
House.—The same steps we were in the last Session—He
is for appropriating the 600,000l. given. We were no
more concluded by the former 300,000l. than we are
by this 600,000l. We then calculated the number
of ships, and the cost. Three subsidies, and three
fifteenths, is worth 100,000l.—When we had war with
Spain—Then for Ireland was the first leading case of
400,000l. raised by Land Tax. Then we were in
earnest, and think ourselves now in as much earnest.
It is now his opinion that this money be raised by
Land Tax; that you vote it, and appropriate it. Do
as you did last time, and as his votes went last time,
they shall do this.
Sir William Coventry.] Finds gentlemen entangled
in the Debate, because we know not whether the Excise will be continued. (The Excise of 3d. upon the
barrel is no revenue; 'twas granted towards the payment of the King's debt of 1,600,000l. given in by
Sir Robert Long.) If that be made revenue, Land
Tax may be so too, (would not have that swallowed.)
Lands are still charged by the Excise, if we give no
Tax—He thinks we are to resort to the House for direction, but so as to leave the House to one or the
other opinion; therefore would have no involving any
Question whatsoever, but would go only for farther
directions to the House for our proceedings.
Sir Richard Temple left the Chair; and reported, That the
Committee desires the directions of the House how to proceed in the business of the King's Supply.
Mr Powle.] The Committee, it seems, doubts in
their proceedings. He is of opinion, rather than Excise, to have your Land charged; because he would not
have it double charged; which in consequence is more
pernicious than Land Tax. Moves therefore, that the
Excise expiring Midsummer next, may not be farther
Sir Edmund Jennings.] You have passed the sum of
money you will give, and would not lose time in farther Debate, but consider the manner of raising it.
Sir EliabHarvey.] Complained, that the Speaker looks
not so easily this way as the other.—Would have the
Sir Thomas Littleton.] An improper Question! None
can, nor ought to be the Question, that is an intricate
and involved Question. But it is said, it may be proposed that part of this sum, or all, may be on the Excise; but if it pass in the negative, yet we are not secure, for it may be to another use, though not to this
—Would have therefore the previous Question.
Sir Thomas Meres.] He is not for continuing the
duty upon the Excise, but if it be carried in the affirmative, he may then tell you how to ease your land.
For he would ease land.
Col. Birch.] He has been studying the reason of this
nicety about the Question.—Now, he says, you cannot
put the Question by Order. You now put the Question, Whether to proceed, at the Committee, to the
manner of raising this money, or not. He cannot
vote for Land Tax till it be clear whether the duty
upon the Excise be not a concurrent Land Tax. If
the previous Question be put, and carried, then all the
Debates will be negative.
The Speaker.] He must always put affirmative
Questions. You may as well put a Question upon the
Law-Bill, or any thing else.—The affirmative concludes a negative; which is the reason of a previous
Mr Sacheverell.] All men understand the main Question, and he would have it.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Is content that the main Question should be put, though he moved for the previous
Serjeant Seys.] Matter of Supply goes to all the three
parts of the King's Speech. You are past the first part
of it, and you are properly upon the next, which is
the Excise; and so on to the third, which is the King's
debts; and so you go orderly upon them in their
Sir William Coventry.] Any involving Question is
purposely declined in the Committee, and therefore we
are free to propose any thing. The Question is not
for direction to the Committee to proceed on Land
Tax; but, whether you will go upon the consideration
of the manner of raising the money, or not. We are
now free to propose the Excise, and manner of levying
600,000l.—The least that can be said—Here are two
Questions striving for preference, and which must be
foremost is the Question—He hears much urged of the
necessity of the speed of levying this money; but will
ships be ever the sooner built by it? Let gentlemen
speak plainly, whether we shall have grievances redressed, or the Money Bill sent up before its fellows.
You shall not have an Act the sooner for it, nor ships.
To what use are these occasions of jealousies that money should so out-run grievances? Were it not a
strange proposition to raise money before we see our
work?—Would not have propositions to raise money,
before we know how much we shall raise. 'Tis no
contemptible thing to ease your land, by laying this
tax upon Excise, or any way—That must be resolved;
else it would be as preposterous a thing as to lay
out all the money for timber for ships, and leave none
for the rest of the materials. When you know what
you are to raise, then is the proper time to say on
what you will raise it; and the next Question is, Whether the Committee shall proceed on the next thing in
the King's Speech, viz. the Excise?
Mr Secretary Williamson.] A great many things, if
he knew the incidents of them, he might give a more
judicious opinion of, and nearer; but that takes not
totally away the liberty of judging, and in this matter, one way or other carried, he has that liberty.
Sir William Coventry.] The Speaker can as little collect from the Committee Supply, or Excise—Here are
two Questions contending in the House for precedency,
and what was first proposed, ought, by Order, to be
Sir Thomas Clarges.] The Committee reported matters of doubt that did there arise not in writing, and
so you are upon nothing but directions.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] There is no great difficulty in
this matter. Farther directions to the Committee, of
two forts, are moved for. First, the manner of raising the Supply; and, secondly, for the Excise.
These Questions were both stated.
Resolved, That directions be given to the Committee, [That
they do,] in the first place, proceed to consider the manner of raising [the Supply to his Majesty, not exceeding] 600,000l. for the
building of ships. On a division, 183 to 163.
[Adjourned to Thursday.]