Debates in 1677
March 7th-9th

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History of Parliament Trust

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Anchitell Grey

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1769

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'Debates in 1677: March 7th-9th', Grey's Debates of the House of Commons: volume 4 (1769), pp. 204-223. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=40394 Date accessed: 21 April 2014. Add to my bookshelf


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Wednesday, March 7.

In a Grand Committee. On Grievances.

Sir John Mallet.] Moved that, if there were any great man, though ever so great about the King, who might be suspected not to be a friend to our religion, he might have the tests offered him, whether he was a Privy Counsellor, or no; and might be removed from Court, if he refuses them.

Mr Sacheverell.] He is far from joining in Mallet's Motion. If any man's crimes be so great, and he be such a friend to Popery, he is rather for the King's pardon for him; and they do not discharge their duty to the King, if they show not the arts of those persons who have promoted the French interest, which you cannot omit without breach of duty to the King and Nation. Since we have made this strict Alliance with France, let us see what steps we have gone. He will begin with the Triple Alliance, the breaking of it. No man but is sensible that that was diametrically opposite to the interest of the Nation. Then consider the manner how we fell upon Holland by attacking the Smyrna fleet. Then what good the French fleet did us when we joined with them against Holland, and how our Council resented it, and how it was resented abroad, and how much we have withdrawn from them since, and how many have gone over to the French service. He would also consider the trade of France, and our merchants tortured and put to death there. He would have thought on farther, whether the Cambridge and the Bristol, two of the King's men of war, were not shot at by the French, and made no resistance, broadside to broadside, in the convoy of the Virginia fleet in our seas (fn. 1) ; and after all this, if the Council take no notice of this, whether it be not our duty to acquaint the King that these Counsels tend to gratify France, and to dishonour the Nation, and, these Counsels being so prevalent, that those who have opposed these acts, may have the honour of being known, and have the praise of this House, and that others may be enquired after.

Sir John Ernly.] The Cambridge that was shot at, gave the French ship her lesson, and made her forsake him. Sir John Berry, in the Bristol, would have buried himself a hundred times over rather than have suffered it; and would you have the King make War upon this, before the injury was known? He has sent his Ambassador into France, on purpose, about a Marine Treaty. The matter is consented unto now, for free ships, free goods, and, he believes, ratified. For some of our ships did really carry Dutch goods, contrary to Treaty, and could not justify it.

Mr Secretary Coventry.] The French Ambassador petitioned the King for his pardon in not paying respect to his ships, and the King of France has hanged two men for the injury offered in his ports to our merchants, and another in effigy for torturing our men, and it does appear that that very ship was a Dutch ship, and Dutch goods, and the man was hanged for torturing an Englishman aboard that ship. The Marine Treaty is signed by the two Kings, and 'tis more than ever yet any nation had of France.

Sir John Knight.] The French have seized our ships going from port to port in England, (without Passes) though not out of sight of land. At this time, this is so, which will, in time, destroy all our seamen. As for the Marine Treaty, 'tis well you have a Parliament in being that has made it so. Every petty man of war of the French will stop any ship in the King's seas to examine her. Formerly, they that shall have Passes from the Officers of the Custom-House, or Mayors, in their several ports was sufficient. But now ships are two, three, or four years abroad, they must take Passes from the Commissioners of the Navy, to be renewed every year, and bonds given to return that Pass, and oaths taken, and so the parties are undone by it. The best that can be said of the oaths and bonds is, that they shall not carry strangers goods; which if they do not perform, they are declared out of the King's protection. The Dutch and English are easily known asunder, and because the Dutch have abused them, shall such a general mischief be by it, that our ports shall be locked up? He desires, that, as trade by law is free, it may continue free. Moves, that a Committee may consider of an Address to the King for remedy of this.

Mr Pepys.] He knows not in his life any public thing that has gone through so many scruples as this of Passes has done. Every circumstance excepted against has been passed by the King, the Council-table, the Admiralty, the Custom House, and the Merchants; not one part of the thing but has had all these deliberations, and been refined from time to time, and 'twas nosudden deliberation. As for the limitation of goods, the King has had so many complaints of masters of ships selling their Passes, that, if no remedy be taken in the thing, the rest must starve at home. The thing is no new invention, but has been done formerly, and great benefit has been by it, and no complaint made of it. Formerly, a master of a ship might have three Passes in his hand, at several comings in and goings out; so that there was a necessity of limitations. Passes for ships to the Indies are not limited to a year, but for their voyage; and expresses are sent to Algiers of the Passes granted out. The Newfoundland Passes, or for the Streights, are but for a year: But at the same time, another Pass begins at the expiration of the former—There is but 100l. bond taken, and that only for the return of the Pass; only to prevent Passes being in hands for an unlimited state of time. The oath is, that the propriety of the goods carried are truly so. We have Dutch owners that will accept any oaths; so this is only to secure the propriety of the goods that they are English goods, and shipped upon Englishmens accounts. This is complained of only in little out-ports, where scores of Passes have been detected forged. He believes from his heart what he has delivered is not to be mended.

Mr Love.] Ships, after several months being in port, have been discharged, but after long attendance and expence. He heard of that of Algiers and Tunis, spoken of by Pepys. He must acknowledge the King's favour, and cannot conceal without ingratitude the King's favour for convoys, who have brought these places, Tripoly and the rest, to reason, which have been troublesome; but never was a greater honour to our nation than by Sir John Norbury, who rather brought them to submission than capitulation, And all now left to keep them in order is fear. Pepys said, "the most considerable merchants were consulted in this of Passes." He believes there is not one merchant will own it—No sooner was the Proclamation concerning the taking of Passes come out, but 'twas carried in an incredible short time to Algiers, and the Bashaw said, "he hoped never to see War, but, by this Proclamation about the Passes, when ships were brought in there without Passes, 'twas not in his power to keep the soldiers from seizing them." And by computation there has been 100,000l. loss sustained by the merchants that could not gain Passes within that short time limited by Proclamation, and ships were brought into Algiers, and they took the goods and left the ships—They went for Passes to Derby-house, the Custom House, and the Committee of Trade, and the same charge for the Pass was upon a vessel of 1000 tons burden, as of 500, and it lasts but a year's time, and then they must look for a new one, and 'tis impossible, out at sea, to have a new one, and, for want of it, ships are exposed to the Turks; and this is not the case of one ship but a great many; and for a new Pass they must still give more money. To the West and Southward of London there are above 3000 veffels small and great, and to the Northward no danger of the Turks—And possibly as many more vessels from the West part of England; so that by the best computation that can be made, there is 10 or 12,000l. in a year given for Passes, for the use of private persons; and he knows not the fruit of these Passes, but getting money—And the Dutch do as easily get Passes as the English. At the 'Change, merchants complaining of these Passes that the Dutch got them, a Dutchman said, "he came in a ship of 7 or 800 tons, and he called it the London, and was as good an Englishman as he." He asked him whether the Pass was not fraudulently got, or interlined? He said, "'twas as good as any"—And so our ships lie in Leghorn road starving, without freight. Merchants have had great sufferings by these things, and he hopes that they may have remedy, and that these small officers that have swallowed 12,000l. a year, may disgorge this money towards the sufferings of these poor men.

Mr Pepys.] "That the Dutch have Passes as well as the English" he hears said, but show one Dutchman that has had a Pass, and he will show you a merchant, or English owner, that has had eighty. English oaths they must take, and he can tell his name, reputation, and place of abode. He despises the thoughts of any undue profit, and of any man that thinks it. He challenges twenty-five shillings for this Pass, and he will tell you why he may. He whom he succeeds took thirty shillings a Pass, and his pains and diligence deserve as well, and are equal to any that have gone before him.—He has wrote himself blind in the King's service—He denies "that forty shillings a Pass have been taken," and "that 3000 vessels bound to the South and West of London have had them"—He denies both the one and the other. He values the reputation of a truth-speaker, above all his gains; and he appeals to the Council, and Admiralty, that merchants of as great estates as Love is, who have conversed with the Council and Admiralty, have proposed things more burthensome than this of the Passes in the practice.

Mr Love.] As he hears his name named, he must say, that he believes these Passes, &c. are not justifiable, and what they have done is willingly concealed —He does not say "that all those vessels took Passes," but if they did not, they must run the hazard of being taken by the Turks.—Their loss of time, and attendance for these Passes, is above fifty shillings. He can name men that will aver these things, and if all ships that run hazards must take these Passes, they will amount in value to what he has said.

Sir Samuel Barnardiston.] He has heard that the Turkey company have complained of these Passes, and have had losses by them. A broker told a person of good interest at Court, "Get me 100 Passes, and I will give you 1000l." And afterwards, he said, he went to Court, and paid 80l. a Pass.

Mr Pepys.] Find him tripping in any thing he has averred, and condemn him in every thing. If ever he took above 25 s. a Pass, he will give his whole estate, if proved. Name but one man, or one ship, and he will name an English merchant that is forsworn, as he said.

Sir Thomas Lee.] The foundation lies not whether Passes, &c. but the ground and reason of it. Pepys says, "he takes not above 25s. for every Pass." But he would know why the trade of England must pay 25 s. in his office for things unnecessary. He would know whether the Dutch are obliged to such Passes, who are our rivals for trade. He is not satisfied of the use of these Passes. You have been told, "that free ships make free goods," and "that English ships, and English men, are at all times known."—He has not heard of Passes till of late times, and would know why English ships, and English men, may not be known without Passes, as well as the Dutch.

Mr Secretary Coventry.] The treaties with Algiers and Tripoly were concluded in these Passes, and it is not in the Civil Law, "that free English ships make free goods," but by virtue of a treaty. In all treaties with Holland, and other nations, this of Passes was an article.—Scarce a ship but had Passes, and the Consul of Algiers represented it kindly done. But the Bashaw's soldiers think it not kindly done. This is not a condition; but the care the King takes of his subjects—But 'tis said the Tiffa, or Governor, of Algiers does not take it so—The Consul would know from what clause that inference could be made—Our merchants told them, that what ships had not these Passes might be taken. He believes from his soul, those Passes actually prevented a War with Algiers; but if English Passes must countenance all ships, 'twill not long be Peace.

Sir Eliab Harvey.] Every ship has the Custom House cockets, and Gravesend. These were formerly sufficient; and no need of new ones. The Proclamation about these Passes was whipped over to Algiers before any Passes could be sent to Leghorn; and the Mary and the Martha, had they not run into a creek, and been fetched off by a man of war of ours, had been lost for want of these Passes. If ships be confined to come home in a year, for want of these Passes, trade will ruined. He believes this granting Passes is to set up a particular office for particular men, and would address the King to take them away.

Mr Papillon.] He never heard of any considerable merchant advised with in these Passes. In his own case, Passes were evermore a destructive thing. The King sincerely intended the benefit of the merchants by them, though they that informed him have not taken their measures right. Formerly, an English ship and Englishmen was security, but now a Pass must be shown. Had the property of the goods only been the Pass, trade had been good; but now the Dutch get these Passes, and hinder our trade. He has been told, that the King would not own him in trade, if his ship had no Pass; if so, then he must submit to whatever is imposed, or sit down and not trade at all. This imposing money for these Passes, and Bonds, is contrary to Law in all its steps. In his own case, in the Spanish articles, Passes were to be had from the Commissioners of the Custom House, but they refused him Passes till they had advised above. A ship went for France; they told the master he must go for a new Pass; he went to the Commissioners of the Navy; they told him they would not give it, unless the owner was bound, who told them, none would do it for an action another was to do—He desired the Commissioners of the Custom House to take the master's bond, but none would do, but one of the owners bonds. He alleged that it was against Law, but was free —They told him he must not be under the King's protection, unless he did submit to this Order. The master, soon after, took his oath before the Lord Mayor, and had a Pass from him, and the Lord Mayor was chid by the Lords of the Council, and forbid to give these Passes—They may impose 20l. for 20 s. at this rate, or else the merchant must lose his trade. This is a particular matter, for the profit of particular men, and I hope you will take care to provide against it.

Mr Secretary Williamson.] This matter will end in the corrivalry between the proprietor of the goods, and the ship-owner, and that will be the issue, and will leave you to judge how they who have set these rules, have mistaken the matter. He hears it said, "Are not English ships and men known at sea?" Passes indeed are but modern, but when trade stands upon laws of nations—Then in Peace all things are free, but in war get what you can. He can name merchants who have desired that these Passes might be for the benefit and security of trade, viz. Page, the Hublands, and Hearne, by express letters come from them—Or they must break else.

Mr Powle.] Upon consultation of the convenience of these Passes, he finds they are not for the merchants, but for themselves. It seems some merchants of the Eastland company desired them, but not the body of the Turkey merchants, only some particular men were discoursed with in private rooms about the convenience of these Passes. There have been pains taken to make them necessary, and then they impose conditions on the subject. 1st, They must pay a fee for the Passes; then take an oath and enter into bond. By the same reason that they have 25 s. taken of them they may have 25l. and besides, the fees of doorkeepers and clerks, and two or three letters to be obtained at the Custom House, Whitehall, and the Secretary's Office. You are told, "here is no compulsion upon persons to take the Passes." But you are told, "that without them the ships are not under the King's protection." Suppose no man shall prosecute a thief at the King's suit unless he have a Pass—And not be under a general protection, unless under a particular one also. If such Passes are requisite and necessary, such fees are not, and should not be taken. Merchants clear their goods at the Custom House upon oath, and why should not Passes be there ready for them to save trouble? The foundation of these Passes is illegal, and exacting oaths and bonds for these Passes is illegal, and a Grievance to be redressed.

Mr Garroway.] He is sorry our condition is such as to be reduced to Passes. 'Tis come to it now, in plain English, that we are not in a condition to defend ourselves, as formerly. He has known that obedience has been paid to a letter, even in France, without Passes. But the King of France will have Passes now. He believes Passes are illegal, but fears there can be no cure, as matters are settled, without Passes, and with them, by our great neighbour, we shall have no farther impositions. He hopes the Address we voted yesterday may remedy it.

Sir William Coventry.] He stands not up to oppose the merchants, who say, they would have no Passes, but would have them farther advised of the advantage they have by it. If a man of war carry one of our ships into port, under pretence of examining, it is a great prejudice to him, though he lets him go again. He would have these Passes so, that ships may not go one league out of the way. Consider how 'tis now in the Treaties. Ships shall carry such Passes. They may be free without them, but not from being carried up into ports to be examined. He concludes, if the merchant have no loss for want of these Passes, 'tis a Grievance to impose them—Else merchants will be without them, and foreigners take them. He moves that merchants on the Exchange may be consulted with by the King's Ministers, and that a Committee be appointed to enquire and report the matter.

Mr Garroway.] 'Tis past remedy now to avoid these Passes, for the present; for the Virginia trade, and the whole wine trade, is as much the King's profit as the merchants, and he would have them cost nothing.

Mr Secretary Williamson.] The Pass is a great favour to those that have it, and is no illegal imposition.

The Speaker.] As to the money given for these Passes, he has nothing to say in justification of it. But had gentlemen complained of it in time to the Admiralty, these gentlemen had never come hither with it for a Grievance. He has the honour to serve the King in the Navy, and this complaint of the Passes is as if all the world would do as we would have them. If Treaties cannot be made but with these Passes, the Treaties must justify whether these Passes are good or bad. He would ask the merchants, whether they would have Passes, or War with Algiers; or whether they would let their ships be carried into ports without them. These Passes own the goods of Englishmen, and merchants forswear themselves daily, and these Passes are for security of trade, and there is a bond taken, that no ill use may be made of these Passes, that when the English merchant has served his turn with the Pass, foreigners shall not have the benefit of it; and when he returns, he has his bond again. If once you put a blemish upon these Passes, by a Vote, they will never be of any use. I would have you refer it to a Committee, and if it appears that they are for the benefit of trade, they deserve your countenance rather than censure. Before these Passes were issued out, methods and rules were given, subscribed by the Commissioners of the Custom House, particularly by Sir Richard Temple, and Mr Garroway, and were sent to the Lord Treasurer for his approbation.

Mr Love.] He knows not what any man can complain of when he knows not of what. He knows some of the gentlemen. He knows that some of the merchants who subscribed the paper, disowned it, and were ashamed of it, as contrary to all the opinions of the merchants upon the Exchange. Scarce a year is yet determined from the date of these bonds, and so they cannot be sued. There is great reason for these Passes for knowing English ships from others, but under this colour Dutch ships have had them. A Venetian ship was taken by the Algerines last year, and had got an English Pass and English colours at Leghorn, and no man has had the confidence to claim her as an English ship. He is not for recall of these Passes now; else all would be in confusion; but would have a time limited for these Passes to determine.

Sir Thomas Lee.] You were told that this of Passes was first begun in Spain and Holland in 1648—That is certainly not so ancient as the Law of England. But he censures not the thing now, but the manner of it. He thinks when these Treaties were made, &c. an Act of Parliament should have been to confirm them. If invasion be made on the Laws, and if time and practice make power of doing or not doing them, he knows not what the consequence may be. He would have them so that no man may have hurt, but good by them.

Mr Sollicitor Winnington.] He takes it to be his duty to speak in this matter, because it relates to his profession. As for the legality of these fees, if his opinion be asked, he will give the same in another place as he shall do here, that they are illegal. Where a charge is laid without act, &c. 'tis but where there is a convenience—A fair or a market is a profit to a town to enrich it. A toll is a charge out of a profit. If the Question be upon the fee for the Pass, the person that takes it is free to let it alone. No man can be compelled to enter into bond for what he may lawfully do. Not the Common Law, but the Civil Law, is under the Admiralty Jurisdiction—They take and impose bonds to submit to the Court, which, the Common Law says, is illegal, and prohibitions thereupon. But in this he craves the aid of the Civilians. Sir Edward Coke thought fit that there should be new Clauses the oath of Sheriff, because there were new Revenues, not coherent with the old Revenue. The Judges were of opinion, that, upon emergencies, a new oath might be required. But whether this bond or oath complained of be legal or illegal, is doubtful. Many things may not be lawful, though convenient, according to emergencies. He humbly proposes, that though this fee of the Passes, the bond, and the oath be illegal, yet since a man may lie under a Vote of the House of Commons for Grievance, when the principle is convenient, that you would take farther consideration of it. Where a man does a thing wilfully and maliciously, he will deliver him up, and expose him as much as any man here. He would refer the whole matter to a Committee, and, upon farther enquiry into it, you will have those helps, in order to establish them by Act of Parliament, if you see reason for it.

Mr Pepys.] He is much concerned in this matter, not for saving his fees, but for the opinion of this House. He has served the King almost these seventeen years in the Admiralty, and he appeals to any man, whether for the Commissioners yards or the whole Navy, he ever asked six-pence unusually taken; which not one man that preceded him can say. To show you with what simplicity he went on in the Proclamation about these Passes, he did examine what fees his predecessor duly took; he found it was thirty shillings, and he reduced it to twenty-five. He fell from what his predecessor had taken. He would have it referred to a Committee, & will rest content with whatever you will do.

It was referred to a Committee, &c.

Serjeant Maynard being gone out of town to the Western Circuit, without leave of the House, contrary to an Order, was complained of; and upon Debate (though not by Order) his son, Mr Joseph Maynard, was permitted to write to his father, to return to his attendance upon the House, which if he did not, the Serjeant of the House should be sent to bring him up in Custody.

A Motion being made, to give leave to some Members to go out of town to attend the assizes at Huntingdon, in order to give evidence (but in truth to plead Privilege) against being sued as part of that hundred, for the money taken from the person, &c. the Speaker admonished them to consider better of their Motion, and no Order was made in it.

March 8, omitted.

Friday, March 9.

Sir John Trevor reports, from the Committee to whom the Petition of Mr Bernard Howard was referred, the state of the case concerning the bringing into England the Duke of Norfolk, their brother, detained as a lunatic at Padua.

Resolved, by the Committee, That it is their opinion that the King be moved by an Address from this House, that the Duke of Norfolk may be brought home [into England] from his confinement beyond sea.

Mr Onslow.] The Committee have made this report without his being heard. The things alleged were done before his time; but they were done in his father's time, and for his honour he desires he may be heard in the behalf of the Duke and his father. Himself being absent from the House, upon the sickness of his mother, he desires he may be heard at the Bar, a favour never denied to a Member.

Sir John Knight.] The Duke is kept shackled, and from all his friends, and this makes him disordered. What would Onslow have to be heard to? Nothing but to keeping the Duke where he is. He would have the Duke brought over. It may be done, without danger of his life, to the next port, on ship-board —He would have the House consider his condition, that he may be brought over to be restored to his liberty as well as his estate.

Mr Dalmahoy.] If a man be not prepared to answer, he hopes you will not deny so reasonable a request from your Member as to be heard at the Bar. Onslow is a worthy person, and is in many trusts in his country.

The Speaker.] It appears to the Committee, that the Duke is not such a lunatic, but that he is fit to be removed, and have his estate; but 'tis a right to your Member concerned, that he should be heard at the Bar, if he desires it.

Mr Garroway.] As to matter of Law, your Member is to be heard. It is said, "that those gentlemen who petition for the Duke's coming over, have their whole dependence for livelyhood upon the life of this person, and they desire he should come home." Dr Smith, the doctor of Bedlam, and Dr Stockham, declare that he may be brought home without danger, and that a hot country is an ill place for the cure of madness.

Mr Onslow.] He is informed that the Duke cannot be brought over, and he should do ill not to inform you of the consultation of physicians at Padua, who declared he could not be brought over without danger of his life.

Sir Richard Temple.] The Duke is not manacled and fettered, as is said, but what was done of fines levied, &c. was done in the Duke's father's and grandfather's time. The prayer of the Petition is, "that the Duke should be restored to his estate, and brought back home," and your Member is charged with abusing his guardianship, and this concerns your Member. The whole Petition is reflective upon him, and you cannot do less than give your Member a hearing, to do him justice.

Col. Birch.] Here is a noble person who is desired to be brought home by those who have annuities depending on his life, and those that would not have him come home fear he will die by the way. Suppose the Petition were against himself, if he judges it an aspersion, he is heard; but never knew hearing at the Bar, when your Committee has nothing against your Member, and nothing is reported from the Committee, but desire, &c. to bring the Duke home; and was he his guardian, he would desire he might come home. As he understands the Law, there is no way but he must come home—He must be seen by my Lord Chancellor, and would you have my Lord Chancellor go to inspect him? We cannot spare him. Suppose the Duke were a fool, there are more fools in England besides him. But suppose he should die by the way—One would think the brother, and the rest who depend upon his life, would rather petition for him to stay than the guardians, whose interest it is to keep him alive. He sees no reason but that the Duke may be sent for, and 'tis agreeable to Order not to hear your Member, and he would have him sent for.

The Speaker.] 'Tis the first time a Member was denied hearing at the Bar. It is grounded on reason, because interest may sway at a Committee, and he would have an impartial hearing, and 'tis his right.

Sir Adam Brown.] Hears, in Mr Howard's, &c. Petition, waste alleged to be committed, and fines levied upon the Duke's lands, and Onslow, his guardian and your Member, is charged with it. You do him the greatest injury that can be, if you will not hear him.

Sir William Coventry.] He never knew a Member denied hearing at the Bar, if he desired it. But in this case of Mr Onslow, if he would tell you to what points he would be heard, it would save your time. One part is malversation of his guardianship, and the other is the bringing over the Duke. These, he conceives, are the two points. The doubts are, whether the Duke be mad. Not thus mad, or thus mad. He should have thought Onslow mad, if he suffered the Duke's being judged mad, to let him manage his estate—As to the person coming over, would have him heard if he pleases.

Mr Onslow.] The trustees for the Duke of Norfolk's estate are the Marquess of Dorchester, and Lord Peterborough. His guardians are the Marquess of Worcester, and himself. He desires to be heard, First, to the commitment of waste upon the Duke's lands. Secondly, to the levying of fines. Thirdly, whether the Duke be fit to come over without danger of his life. To these three things he would be heard.

Mr Secretary Williamson.] He supposes you entertain this detention as a guard upon him, that he should not come over; which the Commons are concerned at. If fines be levied, and other things done prejudicial to the family, your intention of calling him home will judge of all that. But if your Member, Onslow, desires to be heard first, 'tis but reasonable and consonant to honour and justice to hear your Member's reasons why he should not be brought over.

Mr Pepys.] Desires to interpose two words. First, what injury we ourselves are doing on ourselves, and putting your Member Onslow into a worse condition than other men! You will think fit to entertain and receive a charge against your Member, in company with noblemen, and will not let him defend himself, because noblemen are in his company. And 'twill be for ever on record on your books, because noblemen are concerned, who cannot be here. Secondly, there is so great a degree of difference between preservation of life and estate, that you think it no crime in a guardian to keep a man so many years, and though he with others conspired to the violent detention of the Duke (a man of his quality that has his senses) yet you deny him to be heard to justify himself. And for so many years detention, may he not be heard to speak for himself in his own justification?

Sir George Downing.] The natural Question is, to agree, or not agree, with the opinion of the Committee. The Guardian of the Duke, that is his legal father, you take him out of his hands, and will not hear him. The father dies, and leaves an heiress, and you take her away without hearing the Guardian. Can you judge this without hearing the person trusted? You address to remove the person from the Guardian. Will not the Lords concerned come in here, and take exceptions? 'Tis said, here is delay by this; but 'twill be your fault if your Member be not speedily heard at the Bar, and no delay, if he be heard within two or three days.

Mr Sacheverell.] We are drawing great injury on ourselves, and it will be always so, when we make illegal things necessary. The King, by Law, is this Duke's Guardian, and you will not let him come within the King's territories. The Committee wholly waved all reflection on your Member, and desire no more than the Law, for the Duke to be under the King's protection. He knows no Law for a Member to be heard here against Law, to keep the Duke out of England. What will you hear Counsel to? Only whether he must be kept where he is, against Law. For these reasons he would agree with the Committee, that the Duke may be sent for, and not be kept out of the King's dominions.

Mr Powle.] For what passed before the Committee (he was there) thinks they had reason to pass that Vote. Now your Member claims to be heard at the Bar, before you agree with the Committee, and he offers something against agreeing with the opinion of the Committee; which, he agrees, is proper, according to Order—But persons who desire the Duke should come over, will be losers by his miscarriage by the way. The first point Onslow desires to be heard to is, the discharge of the trust of himself, and his father. The second is to the guardianship of his person. That only is before you, whether the Duke be capable to be removed without hazard of his life, or may be better here than in remoter parts. If the Member desires to be heard to the vindication of himself and father, he may be heard. But to the resolution of the Committee the Member was heard.

Sir Thomas Meres.] This pupil, the Duke, is at a great distance, and he supposes that Onslow has the direction of him. Now the dispute is, that Onslow does not order him well, and that must concern your Member. At the Committee, the Counsel for Mr Onslow were heard, till they would speak no longer, and all this alleged by Onslow has been heard already, and will you hear it again, at the Bar? Has the House of Commons nothing else to do? Our Address concerns nothing but the Duke's coming over; and he would agree with the Committee.

The Speaker.] The report from Sir John Trevor has told you every particular, in matter of fact, and the reasons on which the Committee made their resolutions, having heard all parties.

Sir George Downing.] Will not here stand upon your book the highest imputation upon your Member, that can be? Therefore to whatever is imputed to your Member, as Guardian to this Duke, he ought to be heard.

Sir Charles Wheeler.] Levying of fines and committing waste are points of Law, and will you hear any points of Law at the Bar, and then pass no judgment upon it?

Sir John Trevor.] There remains a mistake, as to the levying the fines, by the Duke, and the recoveries 29th of August 1654. The 13th of July 1653, he continued a lunatic. The fines were taken before the inquisition, whereby he was found lunatic. One only was taken after he was found. These fines were taken in that interval of time.

Sir William Coventry.] The Counsel must know, before they come to the Bar, what points they have to speak to, that are in issue; and he thinks to these Onslow is to answer; the point of the Duke's coming over, and to his detainer beyond sea; but not as trustee. To answer for his father as trustee—There would be no end of that. If those that have been your Members, must be heard, you may as well hear all that hope to be your Members.

Sir Robert Howard.] This matter has slept in the family a long time, till some unfortunate difference happened in the family. This matter deserves the slowest pace your justice can give it. He sees no haste to pass a Vote. Necessity calls us not for it.

Sir Thomas Meres.] He has nothing to do with the estate; but 'tis for the dishonour of England, that one of the first noblemen of England should be detained beyond sea, to dishonour the nation.

Resolved, That Mr Onslow be heard by his Counsel, &c. [as Guardian to the Duke of Norfolk, on Wednesday next.]

Footnotes

1 This affair was as follows: Capt. Herbert, (probably the same who was afterwards Earl of Torrington) in the Cambridge man of war, off the Ness, came in fight of six ships, one of 60 guns, one of 50, one of 26, and three fire ships; five of them were under Dutch colours, and the sixth English; and when he came up with them, not one of them striking, he fired a gun, as usual, to put them in mind of the respect that was due to the flag of England; upon which they lowered their English and Dutch colours, and hoisted French. Herbert had fallen in with them to leeward, but, nevertheless, running up along side of the largest ship, he demanded the reason why they did not strike; and received for answer, "that they struck to nobody;" upon which he fired a shot, which was immediately returned by the French Commodore, and, by another of the party, with a whole broad side, Herbert then thought it high time to sheer off, as knowing a single ship would have made no figure against a squadron, but, instead of prosecuting his voyage, he put into the next port, and making the best of his way to Court, not only complained of the indignity, in very lively terms, to the King and Councii, but intreated to be sent out with a proper force to demand satisfaction. For this insult, however, satisfaction was obtained, Capt Pannetier, who had offered it, being sent into England to acknowledge his fault, and implore his majesty's pardon. Ralph.
This account, we may obferve, differs, in some measure, from that given in this Debate, nor is any mention here made of the Bristol.