Wednesday, March 7.
In a Grand Committee. On Grievances.
Sir John Mallet.] Moved that, if there were any great
man, though ever so great about the King, who might
be suspected not to be a friend to our religion, he
might have the tests offered him, whether he was a Privy Counsellor, or no; and might be removed from
Court, if he refuses them.
Mr Sacheverell.] He is far from joining in Mallet's
Motion. If any man's crimes be so great, and he be
such a friend to Popery, he is rather for the King's
pardon for him; and they do not discharge their duty to the King, if they show not the arts of those persons who have promoted the French interest, which you
cannot omit without breach of duty to the King and
Nation. Since we have made this strict Alliance with
France, let us see what steps we have gone. He will
begin with the Triple Alliance, the breaking of it.
No man but is sensible that that was diametrically opposite to the interest of the Nation. Then consider the
manner how we fell upon Holland by attacking the
Smyrna fleet. Then what good the French fleet did us
when we joined with them against Holland, and how
our Council resented it, and how it was resented abroad,
and how much we have withdrawn from them since, and
how many have gone over to the French service. He would
also consider the trade of France, and our merchants
tortured and put to death there. He would have
thought on farther, whether the Cambridge and the
Bristol, two of the King's men of war, were
not shot at by the French, and made no resistance,
broadside to broadside, in the convoy of the Virginia
fleet in our seas (fn. 1) ; and after all this, if the Council
take no notice of this, whether it be not our duty to
acquaint the King that these Counsels tend to gratify
France, and to dishonour the Nation, and, these Counsels being so prevalent, that those who have opposed
these acts, may have the honour of being known, and have
the praise of this House, and that others may be enquired after.
Sir John Ernly.] The Cambridge that was shot at,
gave the French ship her lesson, and made her forsake
him. Sir John Berry, in the Bristol, would have buried himself a hundred times over rather than have suffered it; and would you have the King make War
upon this, before the injury was known? He has sent
his Ambassador into France, on purpose, about a Marine Treaty. The matter is consented unto now, for
free ships, free goods, and, he believes, ratified. For
some of our ships did really carry Dutch goods, contrary to Treaty, and could not justify it.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] The French Ambassador petitioned the King for his pardon in not paying respect
to his ships, and the King of France has hanged two
men for the injury offered in his ports to our merchants, and another in effigy for torturing our men,
and it does appear that that very ship was a Dutch ship,
and Dutch goods, and the man was hanged for torturing an Englishman aboard that ship. The Marine
Treaty is signed by the two Kings, and 'tis more than
ever yet any nation had of France.
Sir John Knight.] The French have seized our ships
going from port to port in England, (without Passes)
though not out of sight of land. At this time, this is
so, which will, in time, destroy all our seamen. As for
the Marine Treaty, 'tis well you have a Parliament in
being that has made it so. Every petty man of war of
the French will stop any ship in the King's seas to examine her. Formerly, they that shall have Passes from
the Officers of the Custom-House, or Mayors, in their
several ports was sufficient. But now ships are two,
three, or four years abroad, they must take Passes from
the Commissioners of the Navy, to be renewed every
year, and bonds given to return that Pass, and oaths
taken, and so the parties are undone by it. The best
that can be said of the oaths and bonds is, that they shall
not carry strangers goods; which if they do not perform, they are declared out of the King's protection.
The Dutch and English are easily known asunder, and
because the Dutch have abused them, shall such a general mischief be by it, that our ports shall be locked
up? He desires, that, as trade by law is free, it may
continue free. Moves, that a Committee may consider of an Address to the King for remedy of this.
Mr Pepys.] He knows not in his life any public thing
that has gone through so many scruples as this of Passes
has done. Every circumstance excepted against has been
passed by the King, the Council-table, the Admiralty,
the Custom House, and the Merchants; not one part of
the thing but has had all these deliberations, and been refined from time to time, and 'twas nosudden deliberation.
As for the limitation of goods, the King has had so
many complaints of masters of ships selling their Passes, that, if no remedy be taken in the thing, the rest
must starve at home. The thing is no new invention,
but has been done formerly, and great benefit has
been by it, and no complaint made of it. Formerly,
a master of a ship might have three Passes in his hand,
at several comings in and goings out; so that there was
a necessity of limitations. Passes for ships to the Indies are not limited to a year, but for their voyage;
and expresses are sent to Algiers of the Passes granted
out. The Newfoundland Passes, or for the Streights,
are but for a year: But at the same time, another Pass
begins at the expiration of the former—There is but
100l. bond taken, and that only for the return of the
Pass; only to prevent Passes being in hands for an
unlimited state of time. The oath is, that the propriety of the goods carried are truly so. We have
Dutch owners that will accept any oaths; so this is only to secure the propriety of the goods that they are
English goods, and shipped upon Englishmens accounts.
This is complained of only in little out-ports, where
scores of Passes have been detected forged. He believes from his heart what he has delivered is not to be
Mr Love.] Ships, after several months being in port,
have been discharged, but after long attendance and
expence. He heard of that of Algiers and Tunis, spoken of by Pepys. He must acknowledge the King's
favour, and cannot conceal without ingratitude the
King's favour for convoys, who have brought these
places, Tripoly and the rest, to reason, which have been
troublesome; but never was a greater honour to our
nation than by Sir John Norbury, who rather brought
them to submission than capitulation, And all now
left to keep them in order is fear. Pepys said, "the
most considerable merchants were consulted in this of
Passes." He believes there is not one merchant will
own it—No sooner was the Proclamation concerning
the taking of Passes come out, but 'twas carried in an
incredible short time to Algiers, and the Bashaw said,
"he hoped never to see War, but, by this Proclamation
about the Passes, when ships were brought in there
without Passes, 'twas not in his power to keep the soldiers from seizing them." And by computation there
has been 100,000l. loss sustained by the merchants
that could not gain Passes within that short time limited by Proclamation, and ships were brought into Algiers, and they took the goods and left the ships—They
went for Passes to Derby-house, the Custom House,
and the Committee of Trade, and the same charge for
the Pass was upon a vessel of 1000 tons burden, as of
500, and it lasts but a year's time, and then they must
look for a new one, and 'tis impossible, out at sea, to
have a new one, and, for want of it, ships are exposed
to the Turks; and this is not the case of one ship
but a great many; and for a new Pass they must still
give more money. To the West and Southward of
London there are above 3000 veffels small and great,
and to the Northward no danger of the Turks—And
possibly as many more vessels from the West part of
England; so that by the best computation that can be
made, there is 10 or 12,000l. in a year given for Passes, for the use of private persons; and he knows
not the fruit of these Passes, but getting money—And
the Dutch do as easily get Passes as the English. At
the 'Change, merchants complaining of these Passes that
the Dutch got them, a Dutchman said, "he came in
a ship of 7 or 800 tons, and he called it the London,
and was as good an Englishman as he." He asked him
whether the Pass was not fraudulently got, or interlined? He said, "'twas as good as any"—And so our
ships lie in Leghorn road starving, without freight.
Merchants have had great sufferings by these things,
and he hopes that they may have remedy, and that
these small officers that have swallowed 12,000l. a year,
may disgorge this money towards the sufferings of
these poor men.
Mr Pepys.] "That the Dutch have Passes as well
as the English" he hears said, but show one Dutchman
that has had a Pass, and he will show you a merchant,
or English owner, that has had eighty. English oaths
they must take, and he can tell his name, reputation,
and place of abode. He despises the thoughts of any
undue profit, and of any man that thinks it. He
challenges twenty-five shillings for this Pass, and he
will tell you why he may. He whom he succeeds took
thirty shillings a Pass, and his pains and diligence deserve as well, and are equal to any that have gone before him.—He has wrote himself blind in the King's
service—He denies "that forty shillings a Pass have
been taken," and "that 3000 vessels bound to the
South and West of London have had them"—He denies
both the one and the other. He values the reputation
of a truth-speaker, above all his gains; and he appeals to the Council, and Admiralty, that merchants
of as great estates as Love is, who have conversed with
the Council and Admiralty, have proposed things more
burthensome than this of the Passes in the practice.
Mr Love.] As he hears his name named, he must
say, that he believes these Passes, &c. are not justifiable, and what they have done is willingly concealed
—He does not say "that all those vessels took Passes,"
but if they did not, they must run the hazard of being taken by the Turks.—Their loss of time, and attendance for these Passes, is above fifty shillings. He
can name men that will aver these things, and if all
ships that run hazards must take these Passes, they will
amount in value to what he has said.
Sir Samuel Barnardiston.] He has heard that the Turkey
company have complained of these Passes, and have
had losses by them. A broker told a person of good
interest at Court, "Get me 100 Passes, and I will give
you 1000l." And afterwards, he said, he went to Court,
and paid 80l. a Pass.
Mr Pepys.] Find him tripping in any thing he has
averred, and condemn him in every thing. If ever
he took above 25 s. a Pass, he will give his whole estate, if proved. Name but one man, or one ship,
and he will name an English merchant that is forsworn,
as he said.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The foundation lies not whether
Passes, &c. but the ground and reason of it. Pepys says,
"he takes not above 25s. for every Pass." But he would
know why the trade of England must pay 25 s. in his
office for things unnecessary. He would know whether the Dutch are obliged to such Passes, who are our
rivals for trade. He is not satisfied of the use of these
Passes. You have been told, "that free ships make
free goods," and "that English ships, and English
men, are at all times known."—He has not heard of
Passes till of late times, and would know why English
ships, and English men, may not be known without
Passes, as well as the Dutch.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] The treaties with Algiers
and Tripoly were concluded in these Passes, and it is
not in the Civil Law, "that free English ships make
free goods," but by virtue of a treaty. In all treaties
with Holland, and other nations, this of Passes was
an article.—Scarce a ship but had Passes, and the
Consul of Algiers represented it kindly done. But the
Bashaw's soldiers think it not kindly done. This is
not a condition; but the care the King takes of his
subjects—But 'tis said the Tiffa, or Governor, of Algiers does not take it so—The Consul would know from
what clause that inference could be made—Our merchants told them, that what ships had not these Passes
might be taken. He believes from his soul, those
Passes actually prevented a War with Algiers; but if
English Passes must countenance all ships, 'twill not
long be Peace.
Sir Eliab Harvey.] Every ship has the Custom House
cockets, and Gravesend. These were formerly sufficient; and no need of new ones. The Proclamation
about these Passes was whipped over to Algiers before any Passes could be sent to Leghorn; and the Mary and
the Martha, had they not run into a creek, and been
fetched off by a man of war of ours, had been lost
for want of these Passes. If ships be confined to come
home in a year, for want of these Passes, trade will
ruined. He believes this granting Passes is to set up
a particular office for particular men, and would address the King to take them away.
Mr Papillon.] He never heard of any considerable
merchant advised with in these Passes. In his own
case, Passes were evermore a destructive thing.
The King sincerely intended the benefit of the merchants by them, though they that informed him have
not taken their measures right. Formerly, an English ship and Englishmen was security, but now a Pass
must be shown. Had the property of the goods only
been the Pass, trade had been good; but now the Dutch
get these Passes, and hinder our trade. He has been
told, that the King would not own him in trade, if
his ship had no Pass; if so, then he must submit to
whatever is imposed, or sit down and not trade at all.
This imposing money for these Passes, and Bonds, is
contrary to Law in all its steps. In his own case, in
the Spanish articles, Passes were to be had from the
Commissioners of the Custom House, but they refused
him Passes till they had advised above. A ship went
for France; they told the master he must go for a
new Pass; he went to the Commissioners of the Navy; they told him they would not give it, unless the
owner was bound, who told them, none would do it
for an action another was to do—He desired the Commissioners of the Custom House to take the master's
bond, but none would do, but one of the owners
bonds. He alleged that it was against Law, but was free
—They told him he must not be under the King's
protection, unless he did submit to this Order. The
master, soon after, took his oath before the Lord
Mayor, and had a Pass from him, and the Lord Mayor
was chid by the Lords of the Council, and forbid
to give these Passes—They may impose 20l. for 20 s.
at this rate, or else the merchant must lose his trade.
This is a particular matter, for the profit of particular
men, and I hope you will take care to provide against
Mr Secretary Williamson.] This matter will end in
the corrivalry between the proprietor of the goods,
and the ship-owner, and that will be the issue, and
will leave you to judge how they who have set these
rules, have mistaken the matter. He hears it said,
"Are not English ships and men known at sea?" Passes indeed are but modern, but when trade stands upon laws of nations—Then in Peace all things are free,
but in war get what you can. He can name merchants who have desired that these Passes might be for
the benefit and security of trade, viz. Page, the Hublands,
and Hearne, by express letters come from them—Or
they must break else.
Mr Powle.] Upon consultation of the convenience
of these Passes, he finds they are not for the merchants, but for themselves. It seems some merchants
of the Eastland company desired them, but not the
body of the Turkey merchants, only some particular
men were discoursed with in private rooms about the
convenience of these Passes. There have been pains
taken to make them necessary, and then they impose
conditions on the subject. 1st, They must pay a fee
for the Passes; then take an oath and enter into bond.
By the same reason that they have 25 s. taken of them
they may have 25l. and besides, the fees of doorkeepers and clerks, and two or three letters to be obtained at the Custom House, Whitehall, and the Secretary's Office. You are told, "here is no compulsion upon persons to take the Passes." But you are
told, "that without them the ships are not under the
King's protection." Suppose no man shall prosecute a
thief at the King's suit unless he have a Pass—And not
be under a general protection, unless under a particular
one also. If such Passes are requisite and necessary,
such fees are not, and should not be taken. Merchants clear their goods at the Custom House upon
oath, and why should not Passes be there ready for
them to save trouble? The foundation of these Passes is illegal, and exacting oaths and bonds for these
Passes is illegal, and a Grievance to be redressed.
Mr Garroway.] He is sorry our condition is such
as to be reduced to Passes. 'Tis come to it now, in
plain English, that we are not in a condition to defend
ourselves, as formerly. He has known that obedience has been paid to a letter, even in France, without Passes. But the King of France will have Passes
now. He believes Passes are illegal, but fears there can
be no cure, as matters are settled, without Passes, and with
them, by our great neighbour, we shall have no farther impositions. He hopes the Address we voted
yesterday may remedy it.
Sir William Coventry.] He stands not up to oppose
the merchants, who say, they would have no Passes,
but would have them farther advised of the advantage they have by it. If a man of war carry one of
our ships into port, under pretence of examining, it is
a great prejudice to him, though he lets him go again.
He would have these Passes so, that ships may not go
one league out of the way. Consider how 'tis now in
the Treaties. Ships shall carry such Passes. They
may be free without them, but not from being carried
up into ports to be examined. He concludes, if the
merchant have no loss for want of these Passes, 'tis a
Grievance to impose them—Else merchants will be
without them, and foreigners take them. He moves
that merchants on the Exchange may be consulted with
by the King's Ministers, and that a Committee be appointed to enquire and report the matter.
Mr Garroway.] 'Tis past remedy now to avoid these
Passes, for the present; for the Virginia trade, and the
whole wine trade, is as much the King's profit as the
merchants, and he would have them cost nothing.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] The Pass is a great favour to those that have it, and is no illegal imposition.
The Speaker.] As to the money given for these Passes, he has nothing to say in justification of it. But
had gentlemen complained of it in time to the Admiralty, these gentlemen had never come hither with it
for a Grievance. He has the honour to serve the King
in the Navy, and this complaint of the Passes is as if
all the world would do as we would have them. If
Treaties cannot be made but with these Passes, the
Treaties must justify whether these Passes are good or
bad. He would ask the merchants, whether they
would have Passes, or War with Algiers; or whether
they would let their ships be carried into ports without them. These Passes own the goods of Englishmen,
and merchants forswear themselves daily, and these Passes are for security of trade, and there is a bond taken,
that no ill use may be made of these Passes, that when
the English merchant has served his turn with the Pass,
foreigners shall not have the benefit of it; and when he
returns, he has his bond again. If once you put a
blemish upon these Passes, by a Vote, they will never
be of any use. I would have you refer it to a Committee, and if it appears that they are for the benefit of
trade, they deserve your countenance rather than censure. Before these Passes were issued out, methods
and rules were given, subscribed by the Commissioners
of the Custom House, particularly by Sir Richard Temple, and Mr Garroway, and were sent to the Lord
Treasurer for his approbation.
Mr Love.] He knows not what any man can complain of when he knows not of what. He knows
some of the gentlemen. He knows that some of the merchants who subscribed the paper, disowned it, and
were ashamed of it, as contrary to all the opinions of
the merchants upon the Exchange. Scarce a year is
yet determined from the date of these bonds, and so
they cannot be sued. There is great reason for these
Passes for knowing English ships from others, but under this colour Dutch ships have had them. A Venetian ship was taken by the Algerines last year, and had
got an English Pass and English colours at Leghorn, and
no man has had the confidence to claim her as an English ship. He is not for recall of these Passes now;
else all would be in confusion; but would have a time
limited for these Passes to determine.
Sir Thomas Lee.] You were told that this of Passes
was first begun in Spain and Holland in 1648—That is
certainly not so ancient as the Law of England. But he
censures not the thing now, but the manner of it.
He thinks when these Treaties were made, &c. an
Act of Parliament should have been to confirm them.
If invasion be made on the Laws, and if time and practice make power of doing or not doing them, he
knows not what the consequence may be. He would
have them so that no man may have hurt, but good
Mr Sollicitor Winnington.] He takes it to be his duty to speak in this matter, because it relates to his
profession. As for the legality of these fees, if his opinion be asked, he will give the same in another
place as he shall do here, that they are illegal. Where
a charge is laid without act, &c. 'tis but where there
is a convenience—A fair or a market is a profit to a town
to enrich it. A toll is a charge out of a profit. If
the Question be upon the fee for the Pass, the person
that takes it is free to let it alone. No man can be
compelled to enter into bond for what he may lawfully do. Not the Common Law, but the Civil Law, is
under the Admiralty Jurisdiction—They take and impose bonds to submit to the Court, which, the Common Law says, is illegal, and prohibitions thereupon.
But in this he craves the aid of the Civilians. Sir Edward Coke thought fit that there should be new Clauses
the oath of Sheriff, because there were new Revenues, not coherent with the old Revenue. The Judges
were of opinion, that, upon emergencies, a new oath
might be required. But whether this bond or
oath complained of be legal or illegal, is doubtful.
Many things may not be lawful, though convenient,
according to emergencies. He humbly proposes, that
though this fee of the Passes, the bond, and the oath
be illegal, yet since a man may lie under a Vote of the
House of Commons for Grievance, when the principle
is convenient, that you would take farther consideration of it. Where a man does a thing wilfully and
maliciously, he will deliver him up, and expose him
as much as any man here. He would refer the whole
matter to a Committee, and, upon farther enquiry into it, you will have those helps, in order to establish
them by Act of Parliament, if you see reason for it.
Mr Pepys.] He is much concerned in this matter,
not for saving his fees, but for the opinion of this
House. He has served the King almost these seventeen years in the Admiralty, and he appeals to any
man, whether for the Commissioners yards or the whole
Navy, he ever asked six-pence unusually taken; which
not one man that preceded him can say. To show
you with what simplicity he went on in the Proclamation about these Passes, he did examine what fees his
predecessor duly took; he found it was thirty shillings,
and he reduced it to twenty-five. He fell from what his
predecessor had taken. He would have it referred to a
Committee, & will rest content with whatever you will do.
It was referred to a Committee, &c.
Serjeant Maynard being gone out of town to the Western
Circuit, without leave of the House, contrary to an Order, was
complained of; and upon Debate (though not by Order) his
son, Mr Joseph Maynard, was permitted to write to his father, to
return to his attendance upon the House, which if he did not, the
Serjeant of the House should be sent to bring him up in Custody.
A Motion being made, to give leave to some Members
to go out of town to attend the assizes at Huntingdon, in
order to give evidence (but in truth to plead Privilege) against
being sued as part of that hundred, for the money taken from
the person, &c. the Speaker admonished them to consider better of their Motion, and no Order was made in it.
March 8, omitted.
Friday, March 9.
Sir John Trevor reports, from the Committee to whom the
Petition of Mr Bernard Howard was referred, the state of the
case concerning the bringing into England the Duke of Norfolk,
their brother, detained as a lunatic at Padua.
Resolved, by the Committee, That it is their opinion that the
King be moved by an Address from this House, that the Duke
of Norfolk may be brought home [into England] from his confinement beyond sea.
Mr Onslow.] The Committee have made this report
without his being heard. The things alleged were
done before his time; but they were done in his father's time, and for his honour he desires he may be
heard in the behalf of the Duke and his father. Himself being absent from the House, upon the sickness of
his mother, he desires he may be heard at the
Bar, a favour never denied to a Member.
Sir John Knight.] The Duke is kept shackled, and
from all his friends, and this makes him disordered.
What would Onslow have to be heard to? Nothing
but to keeping the Duke where he is. He would
have the Duke brought over. It may be done, without danger of his life, to the next port, on ship-board
—He would have the House consider his condition,
that he may be brought over to be restored to his liberty as well as his estate.
Mr Dalmahoy.] If a man be not prepared to answer, he hopes you will not deny so reasonable a request from your Member as to be heard at the Bar.
Onslow is a worthy person, and is in many trusts in
The Speaker.] It appears to the Committee, that the
Duke is not such a lunatic, but that he is fit to be removed, and have his estate; but 'tis a right to your
Member concerned, that he should be heard at the
Bar, if he desires it.
Mr Garroway.] As to matter of Law, your Member
is to be heard. It is said, "that those gentlemen who
petition for the Duke's coming over, have their whole
dependence for livelyhood upon the life of this person, and they desire he should come home." Dr
Smith, the doctor of Bedlam, and Dr Stockham, declare that he may be brought home without danger,
and that a hot country is an ill place for the cure of
Mr Onslow.] He is informed that the Duke cannot
be brought over, and he should do ill not to inform
you of the consultation of physicians at Padua, who
declared he could not be brought over without danger of his life.
Sir Richard Temple.] The Duke is not manacled and
fettered, as is said, but what was done of fines levied, &c. was done in the Duke's father's and grandfather's time. The prayer of the Petition is, "that
the Duke should be restored to his estate, and brought
back home," and your Member is charged with abusing his guardianship, and this concerns your Member.
The whole Petition is reflective upon him, and you
cannot do less than give your Member a hearing, to
do him justice.
Col. Birch.] Here is a noble person who is desired to
be brought home by those who have annuities depending
on his life, and those that would not have him come
home fear he will die by the way. Suppose the Petition were against himself, if he judges it an aspersion,
he is heard; but never knew hearing at the Bar,
when your Committee has nothing against your Member, and nothing is reported from the Committee, but
desire, &c. to bring the Duke home; and was he his
guardian, he would desire he might come home. As
he understands the Law, there is no way but he must
come home—He must be seen by my Lord Chancellor, and would you have my Lord Chancellor go to
inspect him? We cannot spare him. Suppose the
Duke were a fool, there are more fools in England besides him. But suppose he should die by the way—One
would think the brother, and the rest who depend upon his life, would rather petition for him to stay than
the guardians, whose interest it is to keep him alive. He
sees no reason but that the Duke may be sent for, and
'tis agreeable to Order not to hear your Member, and
he would have him sent for.
The Speaker.] 'Tis the first time a Member was denied hearing at the Bar. It is grounded on reason,
because interest may sway at a Committee, and he
would have an impartial hearing, and 'tis his right.
Sir Adam Brown.] Hears, in Mr Howard's, &c. Petition, waste alleged to be committed, and fines levied
upon the Duke's lands, and Onslow, his guardian and
your Member, is charged with it. You do him the
greatest injury that can be, if you will not hear him.
Sir William Coventry.] He never knew a Member
denied hearing at the Bar, if he desired it. But in this
case of Mr Onslow, if he would tell you to what points
he would be heard, it would save your time. One
part is malversation of his guardianship, and the other
is the bringing over the Duke. These, he conceives,
are the two points. The doubts are, whether the
Duke be mad. Not thus mad, or thus mad. He
should have thought Onslow mad, if he suffered the
Duke's being judged mad, to let him manage his
estate—As to the person coming over, would have
him heard if he pleases.
Mr Onslow.] The trustees for the Duke of Norfolk's
estate are the Marquess of Dorchester, and Lord Peterborough. His guardians are the Marquess of Worcester, and himself. He desires to be heard, First, to
the commitment of waste upon the Duke's lands.
Secondly, to the levying of fines. Thirdly, whether the
Duke be fit to come over without danger of his life.
To these three things he would be heard.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] He supposes you entertain this detention as a guard upon him, that he should
not come over; which the Commons are concerned
at. If fines be levied, and other things done prejudicial to the family, your intention of calling him home
will judge of all that. But if your Member, Onslow,
desires to be heard first, 'tis but reasonable and consonant to honour and justice to hear your Member's
reasons why he should not be brought over.
Mr Pepys.] Desires to interpose two words. First,
what injury we ourselves are doing on ourselves, and
putting your Member Onslow into a worse condition
than other men! You will think fit to entertain and
receive a charge against your Member, in company
with noblemen, and will not let him defend himself,
because noblemen are in his company. And 'twill be
for ever on record on your books, because noblemen
are concerned, who cannot be here. Secondly, there is so
great a degree of difference between preservation of life
and estate, that you think it no crime in a guardian to
keep a man so many years, and though he with others
conspired to the violent detention of the Duke (a man of
his quality that has his senses) yet you deny him to be
heard to justify himself. And for so many years detention, may he not be heard to speak for himself in
his own justification?
Sir George Downing.] The natural Question is, to
agree, or not agree, with the opinion of the Committee. The Guardian of the Duke, that is his legal
father, you take him out of his hands, and will not hear
him. The father dies, and leaves an heiress, and you
take her away without hearing the Guardian. Can you
judge this without hearing the person trusted? You
address to remove the person from the Guardian. Will
not the Lords concerned come in here, and take exceptions? 'Tis said, here is delay by this; but 'twill
be your fault if your Member be not speedily heard
at the Bar, and no delay, if he be heard within two or
Mr Sacheverell.] We are drawing great injury on
ourselves, and it will be always so, when we make illegal things necessary. The King, by Law, is this
Duke's Guardian, and you will not let him come within
the King's territories. The Committee wholly waved
all reflection on your Member, and desire no more
than the Law, for the Duke to be under the King's
protection. He knows no Law for a Member to be
heard here against Law, to keep the Duke out of England. What will you hear Counsel to? Only whether he must be kept where he is, against Law. For
these reasons he would agree with the Committee, that
the Duke may be sent for, and not be kept out of the
Mr Powle.] For what passed before the Committee
(he was there) thinks they had reason to pass that Vote.
Now your Member claims to be heard at the Bar, before you agree with the Committee, and he offers
something against agreeing with the opinion of the
Committee; which, he agrees, is proper, according to
Order—But persons who desire the Duke should come
over, will be losers by his miscarriage by the way.
The first point Onslow desires to be heard to is, the
discharge of the trust of himself, and his father. The
second is to the guardianship of his person. That only
is before you, whether the Duke be capable to be
removed without hazard of his life, or may be better
here than in remoter parts. If the Member desires
to be heard to the vindication of himself and father,
he may be heard. But to the resolution of the
Committee the Member was heard.
Sir Thomas Meres.] This pupil, the Duke, is at a
great distance, and he supposes that Onslow has the
direction of him. Now the dispute is, that Onslow does
not order him well, and that must concern your Member. At the Committee, the Counsel for Mr Onslow
were heard, till they would speak no longer, and all
this alleged by Onslow has been heard already, and
will you hear it again, at the Bar? Has the House
of Commons nothing else to do? Our Address concerns nothing but the Duke's coming over; and he
would agree with the Committee.
The Speaker.] The report from Sir John Trevor has
told you every particular, in matter of fact, and the
reasons on which the Committee made their resolutions, having heard all parties.
Sir George Downing.] Will not here stand upon your
book the highest imputation upon your Member, that
can be? Therefore to whatever is imputed to your
Member, as Guardian to this Duke, he ought to be
Sir Charles Wheeler.] Levying of fines and committing waste are points of Law, and will you hear any
points of Law at the Bar, and then pass no judgment
Sir John Trevor.] There remains a mistake, as to the
levying the fines, by the Duke, and the recoveries
29th of August 1654. The 13th of July 1653, he continued a lunatic. The fines were taken before the
inquisition, whereby he was found lunatic. One only
was taken after he was found. These fines were taken
in that interval of time.
Sir William Coventry.] The Counsel must know, before they come to the Bar, what points they have to
speak to, that are in issue; and he thinks to these
Onslow is to answer; the point of the Duke's coming
over, and to his detainer beyond sea; but not as trustee.
To answer for his father as trustee—There would be
no end of that. If those that have been your Members, must be heard, you may as well hear all that
hope to be your Members.
Sir Robert Howard.] This matter has slept in the
family a long time, till some unfortunate difference
happened in the family. This matter deserves the
slowest pace your justice can give it. He sees no
haste to pass a Vote. Necessity calls us not for it.
Sir Thomas Meres.] He has nothing to do with the
estate; but 'tis for the dishonour of England, that one
of the first noblemen of England should be detained
beyond sea, to dishonour the nation.
Resolved, That Mr Onslow be heard by his Counsel, &c. [as
Guardian to the Duke of Norfolk, on Wednesday next.]