Monday, May 12.
Sir John Trevor reports from the Committee of Lords, &c.
That the Committee of Commons desired to see the Commission of
the Lord High Steward, and that the Lords would consider of a
longer time for Tryal of the Lords, till matters could be adjusted.
The Lords would make no Answer to that of the Bishops presence
at the Lords Tryals, "as they had no Commission to treat of
that matter;" so we know not what Resolution the Lords have
taken in it. The Lords said, "That it was impossible the Lords
could be tried to-morrow." That as to the Commission of the
Lord Steward, it was but ordinary, and that he had no power as
Steward, but as a Speaker, and pro hâc vice, for it was a Court of
Lords, and not a High Steward's Court, as in the Parliament-Roll,
10 Edw. I, concerning Indictments of a Peer. They said, "they
would make known the several Propositions to the Lords;" so the
Lords adjourned their Committee, and the Commons did the
same (fn. 1) .
Sir Thomas Littleton.] The Lords did declare, "That
the Tryals did not depend upon the King's nominating a
High Steward, for they had proceeded to try if the King
had not nominated a High Steward.
Sir Robert Carr.] When there is a Lord High Steward
nominated out of Parliament, he is Judge of the Court,
and does not vote; but in a Court of Lords he gives his
Vote as other Peers.
Mr Sacheverell.] There is another thing very material.
The Lord Chancellor, or the Lord President, declared,
"that, in several Tryals, as that of Lord Strafford's Tryal,
there was no special Commission to the Lord High
Steward; and the Lords apprehended that the Commons
meant no otherwise than to keep the Judicature as it was,
and they will show you the Commissions to-morrow."
Mr Powle.] The Lord Chancellor said, "The Lord
Steward of the King's Houshold, if present, ought to be,
(the Duke of Ormond,) but being absent, they appointed
a High Steward.
Mr Hampden.] The nature of the Court is not altered
if there be no High Steward appointed.
The Officers of the Ordnance attending (according to Order)
were called in. Then the Speaker addressed himself thus to Sir
Jonas More: "There is a great Train of Artillery shipped
from the Tower. The House would know upon what account,
and whether that Train was assigned the last year?"
Sir Jonas More.] The Store-keeper will inform you, that they
were for land service; twenty were provided, and eight more to
be sent, which are not ready. I am Surveyor of the Ordnance;
the Store-keeper will tell you farther.
Mr Sherborne, the Store-keeper.] They were designed for
Flanders, and the King ordered them to be sent to Portsmouth
for the better security of that Garrison; it is not all shipped, but
most are aboard; the equipage is not yet shipped, but all is by
the King's particular Warrant for this service upon small ships.
The King's Warrant was read, viz. "For the use of the Fort
(fn. 2) ."
Mr Garraway.] These are not pieces of battery, they
are small field-pieces. I would know what use there was
of that equipage for the Fort of Portsmouth?
Colonel Legge, Governor of Portsmouth.] These are
designed for breast-works to prevent any surprize, and
the harness is but what is absolutely necessary to the
pieces. You ought to have it for all the Ports opposite
to France, to prevent any landing, and it is necessary at
Plymouth also. An estimate is to be given in to the
Council of all the charges of pay, and what relates to
the Garrison, and for the Isle of Wight.
Mr Bennet.] If these things are useful for the security of
the Fort, &c. there is an end; if not, it is for some other
purpose. I would only be satisfied in that.
Mr Trenchard.] Before the Plot, there were 10,000
arms sent out of the Tower, without any account given,
of to what purpose they were sent.
Sir Gilbert Gerrard.] By Legge's advice to the Duke of
Monmouth, the Train of Artillery was sent to Portsmouth,
a Garrison of ancient standing, in case of landing; but has
the Militia been made any use of for the defence of the
Nation? Those little guns signify little for defence of
the place—I wish the great guns there are not out of order. Legge is a servant of the Duke of York, and he that
will hazard his Brother's life, and have a hand in such
things as were reported you yesterday, what will he do,
if he comes to the Crown? I have reason to be jealous;
and we having no Army in being, and a Train of Artillery,
I must suspect an Army to land to support Popery, &c.
Colonel Legge.] Ten times that proportion of Artillery
will not serve a land Army. But finding there were jealousies, &c. I desired an Order to send them to Plymouth. I am the Duke of York's servant, and I will serve
him affectionately, but I have been bred amongst them
that speak no language but my own, and I will live and
die a Protestant, and am as loyal as my family has always been.
Mr Papillon.] If there be no need of these arms at
Portsmouth, they might as well stay at London as be removed to Plymouth. The thing looks a little odd to me.
Sir Thomas Player.] If I have a master that betrays
his Country, and treats with foreign Princes to endanger
the life of my sovereign, I will not serve such a master—
(the Duke of York.) You are told, "these pieces, &c. were
for the benefit of the Country, in case of landing, &c."
But the Militia has not been useful, and is put into such
hands as are dangerous. The Officers of the Ordnance
contracted with the Gunsmiths for repairing arms, and
they owe them 10,000l. but never paid them. If you
examine the Tower, I believe there are not two thousand
good arms left. That there were within twelve months
great quantities carried out, is most true. Examine the
State of England, and look upon every thing that belongs
to your security, and you will find it weak and decayed.
It is not well to encourage trifling complaints; but I
would refer it to a Committee.
Colonel Legge.] I know not of above 20,000l. of the
Money for the French War, that came into the Office of
the Ordnance; all the rest has been diverted for the Gunsmiths—I believe that is true.
Mr Sacheverell.] I am for calling in the Officers, to ask
them some farther Questions that were proposed the last
Parllament. All the time we were at Peace with the Dutch,
there was Powder, Ammunition, and Ordnance sent to
the French King. It will be proved, that the Ordnance
that played before Valenciennes, and the Powder pretended to be sent to Jersey, was sent into France. I know not
why there should be a land Train of Artillery for a Garrison, unless it be to go against the Country. The Powder was pretended to be ill Powder here, and therefore
sold to the French; but it was good Powder there, and
they have left us no Ammunition nor Artillery.
Colonel Titus.] It is strange that such vast sums of
Money have been given, and the Nation never in a more
defenc-less condition. At this rate, every Garrison in England may want such a Train of Artillery. So many
thousand pounds for secret service! Surely that was not
for the Ordnance. Till you make enquiry into these
miscarriages, you will never be safe. As for this matter
of Portsmouth, I would refer it to a Committee, that the
several Officers may inform you in what conditions the
[Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to examine the account, this day delivered to this House, of the Train of Artillery
now shipping off for Portsmouth; and to examine what Arms have
been lately delivered out of the Tower; and what Guns, Mortarpieres, Powder, or other Ammunition, have been sold, or sent over
into France and Flanders, or any other foreign parts; and to
enquire of the state of all the Garrisons in England; and how
they are fortified and provided; and how the Money, by a late
Act designed to the Office of Ordnance, hath been employed;
as also the Money allowed for particular Garrisons and Fortifications; and report the same, with their opinion thereon, to the
[May 13, omitted.]
Wednesday, May 14.
Mr Powle delivered a Message from the King, and said, "It is
not my province to deliver a Message from his Majesty, but Mr
Secretary Coventry is gone sick into the Country."—He opened not the Message, but delivered it in writing to the Speaker,
to this effect:
"Though his Majesty hath already, at the first meeting in Parliament, and since, by a word or two, mentioned the necessity of
having a Fleet at sea this Summer, yet, the Season for preparing
it being far advanced, and our neighbours before us in their preparations, he cannot hold himself discharged towards his people,
if he do not now, with more earnestness, again recommend the
same to your present care and consideration; and the rather,
from the daily expectation of the return of the Fleet from the
Streights; to which a great arrear is due: And he must acquit
himself of the ill consequences, which the want of a Fleet in
such a juncture may produce; and he hath not done this without
considering, that the entering on this great work presently can
be no hindrance to the other great affairs upon your hands,
but rather a security in the dispatch thereof."
Mr Powle.] If the Secretary had delivered this Message,
he would have opened it better in some particulars. I
will crave leave to open it, in his place. The King says,
"It is absolutely necessary there should be a Fleet this
Summer against foreign attempts, &c." And there is
cause to apprehend danger; and at this time, his appearing with a Fleet will be of the greatest concern abroad, because all Alliances, since the Peace, are going upon a new
foot, and none will ally with us, and lose this opportunity
of a Peace, without a Guarantee; which will signify nothing if Princes see we have no Fleet nor Ports; and
they may possibly go to another Alliance. The Customs,
which the King desires should be appropriated for the future to the Navy, are so far engaged, and anticipated,
that it is impossible, for the present, they should do any
thing towards it. If the King could do it, he would not
have sent you this Message, but it is impossible for him
to do it out of his own Revenue. Sir John Narborough's
Fleet is in Arrear, and now coming home. And seamen,
without hopes of pay, will run into disorders, and so lose
the opportunity of manning out a Fleet this Summer; so
that the King desires you to take it into consideration, before it be too late.
Mr Sacheverell.] If the case be as Powle has opened it, its
prospect is much more melancholy than I apprehended it.
If now we have no Alliances, nor Guarantees for the Peace,
all this while; if they who have made this Peace have no
Guarantee, they have betrayed us all; and if so, they are
as criminal as the Lords in the Tower. Now we must
speak plain. The King has chosen a new Council, and
has told us, "That without them he will act nothing."
They are Gentlemen of ability, worth, and interest to
serve him; and in this first step they represent to the King,
that this House should be so like the last, that now we
are in the height of our affairs, and about to settle the condition of our being; to give Money to enable the doing
the same things again, now we are in the height of our
business!—This House is for the security of England, and
let us not put it out of our power to do it. This Money
demanded may serve them to spend till October; and when
you have given it, you may be sent home with a brand of
your folly into the Country. They ask you now, a Summer-guard, and yet were in sufficient security last Summer
and Winter. Are all the Ships we tricked out with Stores,
and all the Revenue brangled? I expected that the Duke
of Lauderdale would have been removed, &c. but we have
had no Answer to our Address. Once give your Money,
and fairly part, and the Lords in the Tower will not be
tryed, and nothing done. If you be not secure at home,
it is no end to think of abroad. If these men, that have
the eyes of the Nation, look no better to affairs abroad,
you are at an end. You are to do at home, rather
than make provision against we know not whom. Let
them take off Anticipations from the Customs—You are
told of "the Arrears of Sir John Narborough's Fleet"—
It is not above 200,000l. extraordinary, and that is all
the danger, but if you give Money, you are sent home
presently. Let us look to secure things at home, and
then it is time to talk of this.
Mr Garroway.] This is a great surprize to me, to ask
for Money now. The King recommended three things
to you in his Speech. The first of disbanding the Army.
You have done the other about prosecution of the Plot,
in which you have found all the obstruction in the world,
which makes people think you are not fairly dealt with.
—Somebody is in the Plot, whom we see not. As for
the Navy, &c. if the Revenue be anticipated, as we are
told, let us bring in a Bill to cut them off, and make
them refund. If the Money was not given where it
should be, we are unfortunate to give Money, and have
not that issue we hoped for, and to let that hold go. Till
we have some issue of our expectations, I would take
nothing into consideration about Money—Let them that
it belongs to look to it. When Narborough's Fleet
comes home, one month's assessment may do that. I
would not now charge the people, and put Money into
those hands who have so ill managed it, at this time.
Mr Powle.] It is not my intention to argue for miscarriage, which has been great, and intolerable. If it had
not been so, you had not had the great man (Danby) in
the Tower. It is not the King's intention to shelter the
faults of other men, and you may represent to him the
miscarriages, &c. But it is not your duty to leave the
Crown in this misfortune; and nothing can bring the
King out of it but the advice of this House, and the King
will take it. If this can be done without Money, I had
much rather concur with that. Consider the state of the Navy. There is a debt of 400,000l. Tallies upon the Customs; if this be fit to be thrown off, you may, without any
man's property being hurt. I am so far of opinion, that
it will never be well with the Nation, till the Customs are
appropriated to the use of the Navy, and not in the
power of the great Officers to anticipate, or pawn them,
and leave the Navy unprovided. I press you only to
consider to give the King true Advice what to do in this
matter, and of that you cannot longer defer the consideration. I declare my opinion. Consider what Advice you
will give the King; if there come any ill accident, I hope
it will never be said, "That the Kingdom shall suffer for
want of the Advice of this House."
Mr Whorwood.] I am much better satisfied with the
Motion, from the person that delivered it, (Powle,) and
that he might be of our opinion, if he were not in the
place he now is in, viz. a Privy Counsellor. It is my
opinion, he is the same man in his heart. But if any
man was in that station (or figure, as the new word is)
something of this nature must be done. But give Money, and enslave us again, and let the Navy go where it
will. It has been the design to expose us without a Navy. We have so sad an account of the Stores, that it
is a wonder who has governed the Nation all this while,
whether French men or women. These seven years,
there has been no person to blame but the King. "The
King's Warrant, the King's Command." I will obey my
King; but had I obeyed the King as some have done, I
had been fitter to have been sent for and hanged up, than
have been one minute in the House of Commons. Still
the same persons govern; though there are many worthy
persons of the Council, yet it is at the old pass. They
will get the Money, and then go hang yourselves. I
had the ill fortune to please so many in what I said the last
parliament, upon such an occasion as this, that I was
not sent to the Tower, as a Gentleman in my eye
would have had it. I heard two talking together last
Parliament; says one "What news?" "None that is
good for any thing; they talk in the Parliament, but
they give Money; and when that is done, they may go
home, and cool their toes." And give Money now, and
we shall be at the same pass. Now, when I see this
worthy person (Powle) of the Council, and things go on
at the same pass, I see that new men do not mend them,
but possibly they are worse. Pray, let us have some reason
why the Duke of Lauderdale is not removed, &c. It may
be said, "The King will not do it." Still so much is
laid upon the King, that I wonder how he can bear it. I
wish any body would tell him so. I have talked freely of
this to the King. I have had the honour to speak to
my Prince, as much as any Privy Counsellor of them all.
And I believe he would hear me now, if I went to him.
(Many cried out, "Go, go.") If the thing was represented to the King by such of the House of Commons as are
not afraid to lose their places, it would make impression
upon him. But we have no Answer about the Duke of
Lauderdale, Affirmative or Negative, and we know not
what to trust to. And as for the Tryal of Danby's Pardon,
&c. I hear the Bishops must sit. If they come to try life
and death, I fear few Traytors will go to pot. But let
us go on gradatim, step by step, till we satisfy the people of England; else it is not Money that will do it.
To give Money now, is so derogatory to your honour,
till the Lords in the Tower are tryed, that you cannot
answer it. For Mr Bertie, the other day, to tell you
"He obeyed the King's command," in so vile a thing as
the concealment of the Pensioners, to betray their fellow
subjects!—The King will never do it. Let us know
whether he have that Book or not. I insist upon that
Book. I dare say, they had as many at their beck, the
last Parliament, to go out, or stay in, on any occasion,
as there were true honest people. Let us now know
them: I pray God, there be not some amongst us still.
But pray let us have that Book. But we are told of
450,000l. Anticipations upon the Customs; if it be for
the good of the Nation, pay the debt; but if for Jack
Straw, and I know not what, does any man think you
will give Money to maintain such people? If it be not
reasonable to admit these things, let us have a Bill to
take off so much of these Anticipations, as will pay
the King's debt. Enter into the bottom of these things,
before we enter into one tittle of consideration of the Ships.
Mr Booth.] I do not wonder that Money is asked
of us to-day. I rather wonder it was not asked sooner. The last Parliament seemed, in what they did, to
be of the opinion of the Nation, but it was the treachery of a great many. Money is the worst thing at
this time to be granted; nothing can tend more to our
ruin; and if not so employed, I expect it will be to men
and women, as if it was intended to debase the Nobility
and Gentry of the Nation. Let us see them reassume the
Crown-lands that have been given away, and Pensions
taken off from the Revenue; let us see justice done upon
the Treasurer, the prisoners executed, Lauderdale removed, Religion secured, and the Fleet purged from Papists. I hope we shall not pay twice for one Fleet, as
we have done twice for disbanding one Army. I hope
you will not give any Money now.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] I will not rip up miscarriages, but
would have you think what is fit to be done. Here has
been an alteration of Privy Counsellors, but still here is the
same lump of leaven left; these may be turned out, and the
former may return, like the dog to his vomit. We know who
took in all the Officers, &c. which occasioned our Vote on
Sunday last. I would not let this matter die. sine die. But
there is a greater thing to be done first. The Lords in the
Tower are to be tryed, and we are to be secured against
Popery, not only for our lives but for poste ity. These
things clearly done, I would then consider of the Fleet,
and set the King at ease, and take it into consideration.
Mr Bennet] I would not discourage the King, as if
the House would not give Money; bnt not do it till
things are in better order. But I expected that Powle
would have told us, that Lauderdale was gone. They
say he is gone but to Ham
(fn. 3) . I hope he will remind the
King of it, by what he hears said here. But because the
King does anticipate the Revenue every six months, must
you pay it? Whoever trusts upon such ill bottoms as the
Customs, set apart by Act of Parliament for the Fleet,
I would void all their debts, and when the King pays
30 per Cent. we must pay it, and be absolute beggars. If
you pay 12d. for every 6d. we our spend our Money, and
shall be reduced to the condition of the Spanish Monarchy.
I differ from Booth, not to consider of it at all; but when
the condition of the Navy is reported, then I would consider of the Motion, if it be in order to consider that
the Customs are already given for the use of the Navy,
and how they are anticipated. But of this in due time.
Mr Boscawen.] This is a matter of great moment of
the Fleet. This House has not been wanting to supply
it, and will not be wanting for the time to come, if we
can have good assurance—But before you enter upon this
consideration, see that the Army be disbanded. The Motion was made moderately and with consideration. But I
believe the House is disposed to supply in due time, but
not now, till we see what the Lords will do, and have a
Report from the Committee; and there can be no umbrage, that the House will refuse the King Money for
the Fleet, when they are assured that it will be employed
the right way.
Sir Robert Howard.] Since the King has had a new
Council, you have had Messages from him of other stamps
and natures than before. I would not have that reflection
upon them; not only the Revenue is extremely anticipated.
In 1674, I gave you in a paper of the state of the Revenue.
In 1675, I charged the Treasurer, &c. before the Lords
of the Council. In 1676, he charged me; but the Exchequer has been managed in such an extravagant way, that
the Nation is at the mercy of the Money-lenders, what
to do with it. Had Common Law been observed in it,
things had not come to this pass. There is not a 12d.
due of the Revenue to find the King bread for a year (fn. 4) .
Anticipations and Patents are abroad, and 20 per Cent.
is a moderate thing for interest. This can never be well settled but by Parliament-bargain, and I believe the House
will receive satisfaction. No Fleet will gratify those that
have a mind to have us destroyed. I would adjourn the
Debate to a day certain; therefore I move it; and in the
mean time debate what observations have been before
this. Stat all, and then Money will come much better,
and more easily.
Colonel Birch.] The truth is, the consideration before
you is so amazing to me, in relation to circumstances, that
it looks too big to take hold of, for me to express myself
upon. There is from that Honourable Person (Powle) a
desire from the King of Money for fitting out the Fleet;
but particularly to pay off Sir John Narborough's men,
&c. I am amazed that this is our condition. Whoever
advised this did not think of the Act of Parliament last
year. There was Money, and what was that 200,000l.
but for Money the King had laid out before, for preparations for the War against France? the Navy, &c. next
the Princess of Orange's Portion, and for fitting out a
Fleet. The Customs, that year, were 600,000l. and
yet there wanted 200,000l. more for setting out the Fleet
for a War with France. The House had then an account,
that not a Ship but was ready, within some few of ninety,
and all in perfect order. It was said then, "That the
Customs might bear some part of the charge." But Money was requisite in satisfaction of them, and 200,000l.
was given to set all in order. And now I appeal to them
that gave us that account of the Ordnance. Their own
account was taken, and this Money was to do all the
work, pay the men, and 60,000l. over to spare for another time for stores. All this is entered into your Journal. I speak this only, that Gentlemen may see our
condition. And now we are told, "That the Navy is
twenty or twenty two months behind-hand, and thirty
due to Sir John Narborough." Still we see, the more
Money we give, the more streights we are in; had we
given none, we could not have been in worse condition
than now. This very Money was given for the Navy;
and there could not be any Warrant for any other use for
it by Act of Parliament. Having said this, if you cannot
mend the matter, it is strange. The Excise Office has a
Million of Money Anticipation. Let it come from what
hand it will, we are in such a condition, that we know
not how to secure ourseives. Now the Question is, what
is to be done? This year, no extraordinary Fleet can be
set out. The Customs do nothing at all, and for all this
we are farther behind-hand than ever. But with submission, I think it is not on the part of the House to come
to this, but on the King's part; but without adjourning the Debate, I would vote to supply the King with
such sums, as are for the safety of the Nation, &c. But I
shall tell you what to do next. But what will you do
with Narborough's Fleet? Suppose you suspend the Customs upon the Revenue, for some months; if 100, or
200,000l. Pensions may be stayed, for this purpose. But
I must not stay here; we are told of a general Peace, and
can have no Alliances without a Fleet. This has been
cried out upon, two or three years ago; and if there be
no Alliances made now, who will meddle with us? Though
we are under a Protestant Prince, yet, till the World
know, whether Protestant or Papist shall be uppermost
in England, nobody will meddle with us. If England
ever subsist, it must be under a Protestant interest, and
that will never be, till the King puts himself beyond retreat. If the King comes not up to Sunday's Vote, it is
not standing upon it whether they hang the Priests or
not. If there be Popish Officers in the Fleet, and till it
appear clearly to the World that the Government is against
all Papists, and you go through with it, till then, neither
King nor Kingdom can be safe, and this is for the King,
and not you, to do. And I would give no Money till
we know whether we shall be Papists or Protestants, whether live or die. After the House did signify what they
want, by what you did last Sunday, either it will extirpate
the Protestant Religion, or extirpate the old man you
talk of. My opinion is, the King knows where the sore
place is, and he will agree with you in Sunday's Vote, and
extirpate Popery; and I would say, I will supply the King,
and let the World see it, and those that trust you see it.
Mr Garroway.] I differ from Birch. I am not for
misleading the House, in a previous Vote. That is the
way to be catched by surprize. To break in now, when
the people have no satisfaction, and the Navy might
have supported itself by what you gave—Let it not be
construed here, but by a sober Debate, and not go off
without a Question; but such a Question as the King
may know where we are. I will offer you some words,
viz. "That this House will not enter upon consideration,
to charge the subjects, till effectual security be taken to
preserve the King's Protestant subjects, the Priests executed, and the Lords in the Tower tryed."
Colonel Birch.] I think that Garroway did reflect upon
me. I acknowleged, that, as long as we have hope left, I
never refused Money; but till we are satisfied of the abuses,
&c. I am resolved never to give a penny.
Mr Williams.] Did I think that giving Money would
secure you, I would give it; but I think this will have a
contrary effect. If you promise Money before you have redress, &c. you will do as the last Parliament did, and be
put off as the last Parliament was, when they would give no
more. That House promised in vain, and paid in vain,
and when men with bold faces could ask the same thing
again, they must have the same Answer. There was
Money given for the French War, and then to disband
the Army, and now to disband it again: Pray, let us
see that Army disbanded. Till that Army be disbanded, a Member ought to be questioned that asks Money.
Lord Cavendish.] I will venture to say something in
this matter; though I fear I shall please nobody. I was
ever of opinion, that he is not fit to serve the King in
Council, that has not the good opinion of those here.
Money is now asked for a Summer-guard of ships, and
paying off Narborough's men. You are told, "That all
the King's Revenue is anticipated, &c." but I see no Reason to abandon all thoughts of public safety, because all
things are not yet done. No man in this House can say
so much of ill management, &c. as I can think. The
Ministers, and those Pensioners, and whatever we groaned under, is from the ill maxims of Government that we
have groaned under. Those who gave Money, &c. and
had no account, &c. I thank God, we are delivered of that
Parliament, and one of those Ministers is laid aside. Some
remain still in the King's Council, that I have Reason
not to think well of, and it will become your wisdom to
press forward those Addresses you have sent. But because
you have not every thing done on a sudden, will you put a
Negative on the King's Message? There is no Reason for
that, or why we should be ruined whilst we consider to punish offenders. I have examined myself, and if I were
not in the state I am, I should be of the same opinion.
Sir Edward Dering.] No man has directly moved you
for a Supply. I except not against any one of the ways
proposed. When you enquire closely into Miscarriages, you
may see how you came into them, and how you may go
out, and I would adjourn the Debate to Monday.
Sir George Hungerford.] It is not seasonable to adjourn
the Debate. I think we had not sat here, but for payment off of the clamour of the Army and Fleet. We are
told, that the affairs of Christendom are now on foot,
since the general Peace, and therefore a Navy is necessary. The best way of treating, &c. is when they see a
good Union, that they may trust us. We have deceived the Dutch, in taking the Smyrna Fleet; and the King
owning my Lord Treasurer's Letters, that treated for a
Peace, for Money, with the French, when we were preparing for War, &c. When they see a confidence betwixt
the King and this House, they will trust us.
Sir Eliab Harvey.] If all our Grievances could be redressed by Monday next, then I am of opinion to adjourn
the Debate to Monday. We have new Counsellors, but
I fear we have so many old ones, that we are on the
same bottom still. Till we are on a steady bottom at
home, nobody will have to do with us. The French Ambassador is so much at Court, that the World thinks us
upon that bottom still—35,000l. will set out the Fleet in
good condition, with two suits of sails and rigging, and
what is become of all this Money we gave? We cannot set
out twenty ships, and so the Nation is ruined and undone.
All the Representation of the State of the Navy is entered
into the Journal, Stores and Ordnance. We have not
made one step towards the security of the Protestant Religion, nor is one Popish Priest hanged. Therefore I would
not adjourn the Debate.
Mr Vaughan.] The abuses of the Kingdom are put
upon the Parliament. It is now tottering, and if it hang
at this pass, it will fall. The King may say how sure he
is of Money, when there is a redress of Grievances. The
State of the Nation has been long talked of to be taken
into consideration. Had that been done, we had not
been about to ask what may possibly be now denied. I
would not have a Negative put upon Money; but if it
be not necessary, I would do as in Edw. III's time;
make up your Articles, and when those are redressed,
then I would give Money.
Lord Russel.] I have always been as backward in giving Money as any man; but, when necessity requires, as
forward. If now you put a Negative, &c. the consequence will be the clamours of thousands of Seamen. I
agree for a day to consider of the King's Message, and in
a little time you will see whether Grievances will be redressed, or not.
Sir William Hickman.] Money is not insisted on, but
a time set to consider of the Message, a week, or such a
time; and I believe the King will not so easily leap
out of the hands of his Parliament.
Sir Henry Capel.] I have but one Argument for setting
a day, and that is, common safety. Every man cries out,
"Let us have a Fleet." (Several cried out, "No, no.")
Colonel Titus.] No doubt, but a great many Gentlemen are for giving Money; and those that think that
there has not been Money enough given, are for giving
more. There was twice as much Money given, the last
Parliament, to bring us to this pass, as formerly was to
conquer France, Wales, and Scotland twice. All the Revenue of the Crown is disposed of for Spending-money,
and the Crown and the Government maintained out of
your Estates. Those that see no fault in the Government
already, do not enquire into things; and those too may
be for Money. But when I consider all those tragical
expressions which induced you to give Money, and that
squandered away, I must make a little stand at
Money. As for the time of giving Money, is it a time
that we have satisfaction in what we desired? Have we
satisfaction in any one thing that we desire? We have
no Answer to our Address for removal of the Duke
of Lauderdale. The greatest malversation is not only
defended, in the Pardon granted to Lord Danby, but
they encourage such for the future, and no punishment will be for any such rapine for the future; and it
may be, some will do yet worse, and so Parliaments
will be no farther useful, than to give Money: As if they
were called only for Money, and not Advice. In the
50th of Edw. III, the Crown was in wonderful necessities,
but such as the King's Ministers put him into: Money was demanded, and the Parliament answered, "Saving their Allegiance, if the Money they had given had
been well employed, the King had been the richest
Prince in Christendom, and the very Fines upon Offenders
would supply him." I move as before.
Mr Powle.] I have done nothing to deceive you in my
carriage here, I hope, heretofore; and I hope I shall not.
I can testify, that I have heard the King solemnly declare,
"That he will never have any person in his service, that
his people have just exceptions against; to satisfy his people." But I find there is a mistake in this Motion of
Supply; but it is not too early to consider what to do. A
great deal is expected from the King, and no man can
be secure, till a Vote from this House pass. I like the
Motion, and I would let the King know what you desire.
Whoever does desire to serve you, will do it with greater
ease. Let us know what is expected of the King. His
own Grace and Favour will give you satisfaction. Take
some short day to consider of it, and put not off giving
the King good Counsel when he is willing to receive it.
Appoint Monday next.
Mr Sacheverell.] All Persons seem to agree, not to give
Money, till that be done. Powle says, "You ought to
tell the King what you would have done." I am always
for plain English, and I would speak so to the King as he
may understand these are our Grievances. If he please to
remove them, we are free; till then, we cannot give Money, to be perverted as formerly. The execution of the
Priests, Justice against the Lords in the Tower, and Security of the King's Protestant Subjects; else it is in vain
to do any thing. In this you will acquit yourselves to
all the World; else you do not. I would have Gentlemen
consider, that, if you pay the Fleet before the Army be
disbanded, the Army may be recontinued, and I hope
the Privy Council will tell the King, "That the Nation is
not safe, as long as the Duke of Lauderdale is about the
King;" and a great many other matters; but it is not parliamentary to inform the King of any thing debated here.
It is impossible to have Grievances redressed by Monday
come seven-night, and then to consider this Message, as
is moved. I would adjourn it longer. The Lords Tryals
will last ten days. If you adjourn it to Monday, &c. you
will have another day lost in Debate of adjourning it farther. I would therefore adjourn it to Monday fortnight.
The Debate was adjourned to Monday seven-night.