Thursday, November 18.
The Speaker.] Turberville has received his Pardon for
Treason, in Answer to your Message to the King, but not
according to your desire. His Pardon is "for all Treasons," but not "for Misdemeanors," so that he may as
well lie in Prison and perish for "Misdemeanors" as be
hanged for "Treason." Your Address is for "Treasons,
Misdemeanors, and Felonies, &c."
Mr Fleetwood.] I move that Turberville may have
such a Pardon as Lord Danby has, and it will be full
Sir Henry Capel.] I move that the Pardon may be
openly read here, and that application may be made to
the King, to cause all Pardons of the Evidence to be made
Sir Nicholas Carew.] I would not only address, "That
the Pardon may be full," but I would take some notice
of the Attorney-General, and complain.
The Speaker.] If the Attorney-General draw a Pardon short of the Warrant he has from the Secretary, he
is to blame; but if you enquire into it, I believe the Warrant is short.
Sir Leoline Jenkins.] I had the Honour of your Commands to the King about this Pardon, and I had it in
writing, and the Warrant, by Order of Council, was,
"for Treasons and Felonies." The Warrant was from the
King in Council.
Colonel Titus.] Leaving "Misdemeanors" out of the
Warrant looks like a thing concerted, and not by
Sir Thomas Player.] The King would not do this, but
as he is persuaded by those about him. When we are dissolved (which I fear not) you shall have the Witnesses blasted in their Evidence, as they were formerly, and the Plot
stifled. I would address, that the Pardon may extend to all
Mr Harbord.] I would have a Committee of learned
men to take care to see that Dugdale's and Turberville's
Pardons be perfect, that so there may be no Exceptions
against them, when they come to give Evidence at the
Sir Edward Dering.] I would not only consider the
height of the Pardon, "for all Misdemeanors," but the
breadth too, to come down to this time, that that may not
be trumped up upon them.
Sir Leoline Jenkins.] Mrs Cellier is to be tried to-morrow, and the Pardon cannot be dispatched in a day. I desire the directions of the House, that it may not be straitened in time.
The Speaker.] The Arraignment of Mrs Cellier is not
to-morrow, for the Bill of Indictment must be found
[Ordered, That an humble Address be made to his Majesty, to
desire, that, in the several Pardons already granted upon the Addresses of this House, to such persons as have given Evidence to
this House relating to the Popish Plot, his Majesty's Grace and
Pardon may be extended to all Crimes and Misdemeanors whatsoever by them committed; and That to this time.]
Friday, November 19.
[Mr Serjeant Rigby makes a special Report, from the Committee, of the Presentment of the Grand Jury for the County of
Somerset] against the sitting of the Parliament, and their Thanks
to his Majesty for recalling the Duke of York, &c.
Colonel Titus.] These Gentlemen show their zeal for
Parliament by petitioning against the sitting of the Parliament, and their zeal against Popery by thanking his Majesty for recalling the Duke of York. We know an infected House by the red cross upon the door, and we may
know Papists by their inclinations to the Duke. I would
they would do as much for the Protestant Religion as
they have done for Popery, and I should forgive them.
Some of these Petitioners are leading men. I would have
the Foreman of the Jury sent for, to give an account of
what they have done, and then you may consider from
what great hand all this comes.
Sir William Jones.] I would have your Proceedings
neither too broad nor too narrow. In no sort can I agree
to send for all the Jury. In a few days you will have
occasions to send into other Counties to enquire into Petitions of this nature. I would not send for the Foreman, for you will find the worst men were set forward.
I wish you may have assistance from some of your Members; if not, you may do it at a venture, the Foreman
and some of the middle men. I believe this Address
was prepared by some of the Gentlemen. Somersetshire
is the place of my birth. I believe the Juries are men
that have it not in them to frame such an Address. I
believe it framed by others, and sent to them. I would
send for the Clerk of Assize. I am much misinformed
if there was not care taken to prepare a Grand Jury, by
the Under-Sheriff, for this purpose; and many of the
Grand Jury were excused for disability: But if the Clerk
of the Peace speak truth, more than ordinary care was
taken to have a Jury for this purpose; and he may inform you of the management of it, and how Justices
were taken off from the Bench for this purpose. I am
informed, that two of the Grand Jury of Somersetshire
are in town, Mr Thomas Ward and Mr Edward Strode;
they may give you great light, and I humbly desire they
may be sent for to the Committee.
Mr Powle.] I wish you would consider in this matter,
to send for as few men as possible in Custody. I would
enquire into the Officers that made the Returns of the
Juries, which were afterwards altered, it seems, till they
had men of a right completion. This the Clerk of
Assize, or Clerk of the Peace, may probably inform you
of, if in town; if not, they may be sent for. Get but
an end, and then you may the better unravel the bottom.
Colonel Birch.] This is not your common use, to run
to one or two of the Juries. Whom you do meddle
with, bite through and through. These are they that
are for the rising Sun. Single out a few by a Bill; declare the crime, and the punishment. Pray consider of
it, before you go to too great a number.
Mr Harbord.] I know not what he means by "the
rising Sun." I am sure, this is rising against Law. Either you must punish these men for what they have done,
as a Breach of Privilege, or else you have no other
power to do it. I think, sending for them is a better
remedy than by Bill. We know the effect of Bills. I
remember, in the last Parliament, Complaint was made
of the Proceedings of Sheriffs. It is one of the Rights
of the House to judge of false Returns of their Members. I have searched Precedents, and I find that the
House has inflicted punishment upon those that have
broken their Privilege. I find, that a Sheriff of London, a great City, was forced to ride with his face to the
horse's tail. Do something of this kind, and it will
have more effect than any thing else you can do. As for
the punishment of sending for persons in Custody by the
Serjeant, it signifies little; they find advocates to intercede for them in a thin House, early in the morning.
Pray send for a few, and those the most notorious offenders, and punish them accordingly.
Colonel Birch.] I shall explain myself, in what I said
of "the rising Sun." Popery never can nor will grow
but by absolute Government. And commonly people run
into these things before, and then a Proclamation comes
after. I move that you will send for a few of these men.
Mr Bennet.] I hope you will take notice of the Privy
Counsellor whose province this County was under. (Mr
[The Foreman, and some others, of the Grand Jury, were
sent for in Custody.]
Sir Robert Clayton reports, from the Committee, the Address
against Sir George Jeffreys
(fn. 1) .
Sir John Trevor.] I think, there is something in the
Address not agreeable to your Vote. In justice, the Address ought to consist of matter of fact, as proved di
rectly; next, the consequences of the fact; and last,
your prayer thereupon. It says, "The complaint is of
him as Chief Justice of Chester;" and you have not
heard him as Chief Justice of Chester. I move that you
would hear him.
Sir Robert Clayton.] The House ordered the Address
as to matters which he did in his Recorder's place. "Chief
Justice of Chester" is given him only as a Title, relating
to that man, and he is not charged with Crimes relating
to that Office.
[The Address was agreed to by the House, and was ordered to
be presented to his Majesty by the Privy Counsellors.]
Mr Vernon,] I have Articles of Accusation of Crimes
of a high nature against Mr Seymour. I think he is not
here. I shall undertake to prove them. I move that he
may be here to-morrow morning to answer, and his
Charge will be brought in. To charge him, and not
present, I know not the method of Parliament, but we
have Articles ready.
Mr Pilkington.] I desire that he may be here to-morrow to answer his Charge.
[Ordered, That Edward Seymour, Esquire, do attend the service
of this House, in his Place, to-morrow morning.]
Sir Richard Graham.] The Papists are enemies to all
mankind, but those of their own persuasion—In the
Courts of Judicature, they have made it their business to
decry the Plot; the next step you make, I hope, will be to
purge the Courts of Judicature, else neither our Religion
nor Property can be safe. They may wound us, and we
not know who strikes us, like the wounded way-faring
man in the Gospel betwixt Jerusalem and Jericho; the
Levite regarded him not, but the good Samaritan poured
oil into his wounds, and gave him money. We are
that good Samaritan—And I doubt not, if you represent it
to the King, he will be as ready to redress, as you to represent. I would address the King, "That Mr Zeile
(fn. 2) may have his Pardon, to quality him to be good Evidence
against Mrs Cellier, and that he may have some allowance."
[An Address was ordered accordingly.]
Sir Henry Capel.] I would not have Godolphin say,
"That you make too frequent Addresses to the King for
maintaining Witnesses, unless you will give him Money
to enable him." When Prorogations and Dissolutions have
been so often, his Majesty cannot be surprized if we make
more Addresses. I would address the King, to show him
the condition of the Kingdom, and when the disorders
are provided for, then it is a time to talk of Money. I
would adjourn now, that the Committee for drawing the
Address may sit, and by that time our Address is delivered, I have hopes of such a Bill as we have lost in the
Saturday, November 20.
[Mr Secretary Jenkins acquaints the House, That to the Address relating to Sir George Jeffreys his Majesty was pleased to
return Answer, "That he will consider of it;" and as to the
Address for a general Pardon to all that have given Information
relating to the Popish Plot, for all Crimes and Misdemeanors
whatsoever, his Majesty was pleased to answer, "That his
Majesty's Pardon should extend to all Crimes and Misdemeanors whatsoever by them committed to this time, Perjury
Sir William Jones.] This Pardon running in general
words, and then "Perjury" coming to be excepted in
particular, by this the credit of the person may be
suspected in Evidence, and it may be of consequence
in legal Proceedings, as an imputation upon him.
Sir Francis Winnington.] If the Ministers have power
whether to pardon any offence at all, I would know
whether those persons that were convicted of Perjury have
had Pardons, or whether any Pardons have passed for
Perjuries since this. The King, I am confident, will pardon upon this occasion. It may be, this Perjury was on
a mistake. There have been those arts and contrivances
by Papists—If a Witness speak point-blank, then he is not
to be believed—But in this Pardon to put in the exception of "Perjury" is a kind of imputation as if he were a
perjured man. Conspiracies of this nature are so obstructed, that you shall never know any thing—Whoever advised this has no great mind to discover the Plot. I do
desire that an Address be made to the King, "That as,
out of his great detestation of Perjury, he will not pardon
it, yet this reflecting upon his whole Evidence, if a particular case be assigned, we shall desist." But this exception is as much as an imputation upon the whole.
Sir William Temple.] I hope there may be some Expedient found out in this case. It is better for the Witnesses
to be pardoned all Offences but "Perjury," and I know
not whether it will be for the honour of this House to intercede for a Pardon of "Perjury," and that "Perjury"
should be excepted in the Pardon, and the House intercede that it should be granted. I move, "That the Witnesses may have a full and general Pardon for all Offences
to the time of making their discovery;" and this, I hope,
Sir Francis Winnington.] Some made discovery of the
Plot at first, and every new examination is a first discovery. All I aim at is, that the Witnesses be not taken off
from their Evidence by formality of Law. If a man
make a false Oath, and be not convicted of "Perjury,"
his Testimony is true: I would know how you will bound
Colonel Titus.] The Gentlemen seem jealous that this
is calculated for the Plot, and they have reason, if particularly applied to this business. Neither Oates nor Bedlow but took the Sacrament of Secrecy, and this may
be imputed to them as "Perjury," and so they can be no
Witnesses. This to be excepted in the Pardon is very infamous. Therefore I move, "That you will address for
a General Pardon."
Serjeant Maynard.] I am confident that what I shall
speak will not be interpreted to favour "Perjury." It is
certain, if it were upon fact overt, none would be so
foolish as to interpose. Now the Question is, Whether
this will be conducible to your end, or no? Your purpose is, that the Witnesses may be free from this danger.
If you refuse this Exception in the Pardon, does it not
imply to use them though perjured? But you have no
such intention, as if you apprehended that some of your
Witnesses were of that nature. If they took the Oath of
Secrecy not to discover the Plot, that is not Perjury in
our Law. Besides, no man that has taken a wicked Oath
commits "Perjury" in breaking it. The difficulty lies
here; if a Witness should say more at a Tryal than he hath
said already, Whether an Indictment may be against him,
for not saying the full truth at first, being sworn to the
[Resolved, That a farther Address be made to his Majesty, to
desire, That the Pardons granted to the several persons, for whom
application hath been already made to his Majesty from this
House, may extend to all Crimes and Misdemeanors whatsoever
by them committed, to the last time of their respective discoveries,
Sir Gilbert Gerrard
(fn. 3) [acquaints the House, That he had Articles of Impeachment of High Crimes, Misdemeanors, and
Offences, against Edward Seymour, Esquire, one of his Majesty's
most Honourable Privy Council, Treasurer of the Navy, and
a Member of this House; and then proceeded as follows:]
Whenever such Articles are brought to my hands, and
I am satisfied with the proof of them, I take it to be my
duty to exhibit them. I shall only say, I have known this
Gentleman a long while; his Fortune was raised in this
House, and how he comes now under suspicion of these
Articles, he can best answer. This Gentleman (if what
Fame says is true) has laboured with industry to prorogue or dissolve this Parliament, which all think will
ruin the King, Religion, and all we have. I make this use
of it, that the King knows whether Seymour has attempted
this, or not. I hope you will think that none guilty of
such Crimes, but fear a Parliament. One thing more;
with what imperiousness did he put the Commons in
contempt, and did talk of "Wind-guns!" I believe
you will find matter against him, to send him to the
Mr Seymour.] In order to methods of Parliament, the
reading of the Articles must have the Motion seconded,
and I do second it, that the Articles may be read.
[The Articles were then read, and are as follow:
"Articles of Impeachment, &c. against Edward Seymour,
"I. That, whereas the sum of 584,978l. 2s. 2d. was raised by
an Act of Parliament, for the speedy building of thirty ships of war,
and thereby appropriated to the said use, by which Act it was
particularly directed, "That the Treasurer of the Navy should
keep all Moneys paid to him by virtue of the said Act, distinct
and apart from all other Moneys, and should issue and pay the
same by Warrant of the principal Officers and Commissioners of
the Navy, or any three or more of them;" and mentioning and
expressing, "That it is for the building, for the guns, rigging,
and other furnishing of the said thirty ships of war, and to no other
use, intent, or purpose whatsoever;" he, the said Edward Seymour, on or about the year 1677, being then Treasurer of the
Navy, did, contrary to the said Act, and contrary to the duty of
his said Office, lend the sum of 90,000l. at 8 per Cent. parcel of
the said sum, raised by the said Act, being then in his hands, for
and towards the support and continuance of the Army then
raised, after such time as, by an Act of Parliament, the said
Army ought to have been disbanded; whereby the said two several Acts were eluded, and the said Army was continued, and
kept on foot, to the great disturbance, hazard, and danger of
the Peace and Safety of this Kingdom; and the Nation was
afterwards put to a new charge of raising and paying the sum
of 200,000l. for the disbanding of the said Army.
"II. That, whereas an Act of Parliament had passed for
raising of Money by a Poll, for enabling his Majesty to enter
into an actual War against the French King; and the Money
raised by virtue of the said Act was thereby appropriated to the
said use, and to the repayment of such persons as shall furnish
his Majesty with any sums of Money, or any Stores necessary
for the said service; and whereas certain Eastland Merchants
were desired by his Majesty's Officers to furnish and supply great
quantities of Stores for the Navy, and, as an encouragement
thereunto, were assured, that the sum of 40,000l. parcel of the
said Moneys raised by the said Act, was at that time actually
in the hands of the said Edward Seymour; which he did acknowlege so to be, and did promise that the said sum should be paid
to the said Merchants, in part of satisfaction for the said Stores,
which they did furnish upon the Credit of the same affirmation
and undertaking: He, the said Edward Seymour, did, on or
about the year 1678, issue out and pay the said sum to the
Victuallers of the Navy, by way of Advance, and for Provisions
not then brought in, contrary to the true intent and meaning
of the said Act; whereas the same, by the Provision of the said
Act, ought to have been paid to the Eastland Merchants, who
had furnished his Majesty with Flax, Hemp, and other necessaries for the said service: Of which said deceit and injustice
the said Merchants did complain in the last Parliament.
"III. That the said Edward Seymour, being Treasurer of the
Navy, and then and still having a Salary of 3000l. per annum clear
for the same, did, during the time he was Speaker of the late
Long Parliament, receive, out of the Moneys appropriated
for Secret Service, the yearly sum of 3000l. over and above
his said Salary; which was constantly paid to him, as well during the Intervals as the Sessions of Parliament; and particularly
during the Prorogation of fifteen months.
"IV. That, on or about the eighteenth year of his Majesty's
Reign, (1666,) and during a War with the States-General of
the United Netherlands, he, the said Edward Seymour, being
then one of the Commissioners for Prize-Goods, did fraudulently, unlawfully, and in deceit of his Majesty, unlade a certain Prize-Ship, taken from the subjects of the said States, without any Order or Authority for the same; and did house the
Lading and Goods of the said Ship, and lock up the same,
without the presence of any Store-keeper; and did afterwards
sell the same, pretending the same to have been only Muscovado
Sugars, and did account with his Majesty for the same as such;
whereas, in truth, the said Ship was laden with Cochineal and
Indigo, rich Merchandizes of a great value."]
Mr Fleetwood.] The first two Articles, I will undertake, shall be proved.
Mr Vernon.] As to the two last Articles, I have credible Witnesses that will prove them, to satisfy the
Mr Seymour.] When my Charge is presented you in
writing, I do not doubt but you will give me convenient time to answer it. It consists of several parts; as
Matter of Account, &c. and if I may have a copy of it,
I shall make such an Answer as will satisfy you, and, I
am confident, every Member.
Mr Vernon.] I suppose, the Articles ought to be read,
Paragraph by Paragraph, at the Table. (It dropped.)
Sir Francis Winnington.] If your meaning be, that he
shall answer in writing, I conceive, when a man is impeached, the matter is to be finally determined here. (But
time being given Mr Seymour to answer, till Thursday,
he went not on.) Mr Seymour desires "he may have the
Charge in writing." This is an Impeachment, and not
to have its determination here, but in the Lords House.
We are the great Court of Enquiry, and are to receive
any Information. This Impeachment being undertaken
to be proved, I would know, whether, if Articles are
exhibited, this House will admit, or allow, the Person
to give his Answer here?
The Speaker.] When Answer is made to the Articles,
then is the proper Question, Whether it shall be given
in writing. But your Order is, "That Mr Seymour shall
make Answer on Thursday, [and that he have a copy of
Monday, November 22.
[Mr Trenchard reports the Address, agreed on by the Committee,] for the Removal of the Earl of Halifax, &c.
Sir William Hickman.] It is not proper now to speak
against the Address, but I may speak to the penning of
it. "That you have Grounds and Reasons of your belief, that he was the occasion of the Prorogation and
Dissolution of the last Parliament"—I see no "Ground
nor Reason" for this, but Rumour only; not Vox Populi. Something has been offered from his Argument
against the Duke's Exclusion, &c. in another place, the
Lords House; but that is not so. That he was the occasion of the Prorogation and Dissolution, &c. from
whence the consequences were, the Sham-Plot—He was
sick most part of that time, and when, recovered, went
out of town. I know he was against the Prorogation
and Dissolution, &c. and came not back till all was over.
As for the Plot, he was one of the persons to be destroyed by the Papists. The Grounds of this Address
ought to be obvious to every man's apprehension; they
are not to mine, and therefore I cannot agree to it.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] It is not for the Honour and
Justice of the House to agree to this Address. I have
said formerly, "That by Law a man cannot be removed from the King's Presence;" the Liberty of the
Subject is invaded by it. When we come to ask any
thing of the King by Address, it is always what the
King can do without the Address.
Colonel Titus.] I speak to Order. The Address is
voted, and ought not to be generally spoken against.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I will open the Orders of the
House in that matter. Any thing that is subjected to
Debate you may throw out. Suppose a Grand Committee agree to Heads of a Bill; when read in the
House, they may throw it all out.
Sir Thomas Lee.] To the Orders of the House! Consider the difference betwixt Votes of the House, and a
Judgment: This is a Judgment of the House, and the
Address expresses only that Judgment.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] This is a general Proposition;
any thing that is debated may be thrown out; and I
have free liberty to exercise my reason against it. Consider, when things come to you upon any hasty Resolution, you are free to alter your Judgment. Consider,
whether all Subjects are not concerned in being admitted
to the King's Presence; you will put the King to exercise his Prerogative. By the Constitution of the Nation, a man cannot be forbid the King's Presence. By
Law, the King may appoint many Counsellors. The
Parliament is the Great Council. In the Scotch War,
the Earl of Bedford sat in the Privy Council, and a Lord
said, "he had no right to sit there." But he said, "he
would sit, for there was an Enemy upon the Borders of
the Land." Make such an Address as may be easy for
the King to grant, and give not the King a handle to
deny an Address for removing evil Counsellors. This
Address is to remove a worthy able man. If this Lord
be guilty of dissolving the Parliament, and giving the
King evil Counsel, some others are so too; let us not be
partial, but use all alike. I hear it said, "That he went
one way, and some another, in the Lords House." Is
not this to take notice of what the Lords do? The last
Parliament, we had quartering soldiers taken away by a
Clause in the Tax-Bill; and we had the Habeas Corpus
Bill passed, and both by this Lord's mediation; which
was worth forty Prorogations. They were exposed to
the Council, and had all the Forms observed; and it
was happy they passed; and I know that this Lord had
a great hand in it. If this, that he stands charged with, be
a crime, let us have Evidence of it. The King cannot
take this Lord's Right away, of coming to his Presence.
Colonel Titus.] Clarges has spoken irregularly against
the Address. You will never resolve on any thing, when
what you have passed Judgment upon, is debated over
and over again. The very same Address was against the
Duke of Lauderdale. How comes this to be such a fault
now, which was none in that case?
Lord Cavendish.] The Removal of ill Counsellors from
the King is a good and necessary work, and I would
have it carry all the weight possible. It is alleged,
"That Lord Halifax was the occasion of the Dissolution of the last Parliament." It is liable to this Question, how it will be proved, before you part with the
Address. I would have that answered. If he did advise the Dissolution of that Parliament, another was called upon it. The Counsels of the Prorogations of this
Parliament were much more pernicious. He was then
out of town, and how could he advise them at that distance? The Address against the Duke of Lauderdale
was much better grounded than this. You had it proved,
that he said at Council, "his Majesty's Edicts were to
be obeyed as much as his Laws, and had the Power of
Laws." I will not speak against the Address, but I desire that it may lie upon your Table, till you are fortified with better Reasons for it than any I have yet heard.
Sir Thomas Meres.] If I can give my Affirmative or
Negative to any thing, I may speak against it. That
which governed us, the other day, in this Address against
this Lord was, "Common Fame was a Ground of Impeachment, but not for Judgment;" therefore let us
execute it. "You have Reason (you say in your Paper)
to believe what is alleged against this Lord." Let me
see your Reason, and I will go along with it. I am not
bound to believe it, because another man says it. Let
him show it. Let the House go upon an Impeachment
by Common Fame; that way is regular; but to make
this a Judgment of the House for the King to confirm
it, I am against it.
Mr Powle.] What I have to say is not from any
particular obligation I have to this Lord, whom I have
not, for some time, conversed or spoken with. I have
two exceptions against this Address. First, I think it
does not well cohere together. In the Preamble, it recites "the great mischiefs to the Nation in dissolving
Parliaments, and the frequent Prorogations." No man
will deny that; I do not. Then is the Prayer of the Petition; "to remove this Person, as the author of them."
To make it cohere, you should mention only the mischiefs of dissolving the last Parliament. The other
looks like blackening a man. As for other things, I
know not; but as for the Prorogation, no man was
more against it than this Lord. I know not how to
justify that in the Address. I would have nothing in
the Address, but what is literally true. In the Address
against the Duke of Lauderdale there was not the least
question of matter of fact. Besides, I make a great
question, whether this Lord advised this Dissolution "in
a secret and clandestine manner," as is expressed in the
Address. I have no other end in what I have said, than
to set the House right.
Sir Francis Winnington.] I think those words "clandestine and private," are liable to objections. But I
am surprized that Gentlemen should be so rigorous to-day,
when the Address is resolved. I thank God, I have this
quality, and I hope I ever shall keep it, to speak my mind
plainly; and if we speak not now, we are all undone.
Though I have a great Honour for this Lord, to alter
our minds by the intermission of one Sunday, is a great
reflection upon us, to be unsettled in our mind. It was
the Defamation of the House of Commons the last twenty years, that they did neither consider the interest of
God, nor of their Country; but now to see a tenderness,
when a great Person is concerned! (Though he has many
good qualities, yet I am sorry to see so much cooling in
this, when all is at stake.) But this Address is not a
"Judgment" upon this Lord (as is said:) I say, it is no
Judgment at all; but the House, upon Common Fame,
believes that Lord Halifax did advise the Dissolution of
the last Parliament, though he said he was against the Prorogation. This is no judging him; he has given ill
Counsel to the King, and we are going to give him good.
As for Impeachment, though Common Fame is no
Ground to convict, yet it is to accuse. If you cannot relieve yourselves upon Common Fame, where you can
have no Witness, you will never remove any man. You
have a ground for this Address, though not for Judgment. We come from all parts of the Kingdom, and
must hear the opinion of the People. I am for leaving
out the words "clandestine and secret," because it
has been open. We are the great Council of the Kingdom: When we see ill Counsel given, and we give good!
—I am uneasy for a Friend, but easy for the Kingdom.
I would have the words "clandestine &c." left out, and
the words "of Dissolution of the last Parliament" in, and
I hope you will not reverse your Address.
Sir Leoline Jenkins.] Whenever you declare a Crime,
that, I conceive, is "a Judgment," though not in the
same manner as in other Courts: I must declare my
thoughts. I have no reason to believe this noble Lord
the occasion of the Dissolution of the last Parliament:
There must be a proof of it, else I cannot declare it
upon just reason; and you have none but Common
Fame. I therefore move, that the Address may lie
upon the Table.
Sir Robert Carr.] It is improper for me to speak to this
Address, being not here at your Vote. If this be the
same case with the Duke of Lauderdale's, it is free for the
House to be satisfied in the particulars this Lord is
charged with. One charge against that Duke was something hard upon us, viz. "That when Commissioner of
Scotland, he procured an Act of Militia to impower the
Council there, at their pleasure, to bring men into England, and several other particulars." I protest, I do not
speak in favour of this Lord; but you seem, at the
beginning of the Address, to lay more weight than in the
conclusion. Gentlemen, I suppose, have Reason for this
Address; I have none, and I have heard this Lord dislike
Prorogations, and his opinion has not been big enough to
do things that others have done. This Lord may have
several occasions of coming into the King's Presence, and,
I hope, this House will not deny that, which ought not
to be without a Law.
Mr Harbord.] I am but just come in, and was not here
at the beginning of the Debate, but find that the Debate is
grounded upon two points. Some are against the thing,
and others against the penning of it. If they argue
against the thing, it is irregular; if to the penning of
it, I am not against any Expedient proposed. Those
Gentlemen that vote against this Lord, would not change
the words without some very good Reason given for
it. That this Lord was much about the King, and
shut up with him, is most certain; and if so, by the
effects that have been of his Counsels, I have no Reason
in the least to change my mind. No doubt there are
endeavours abroad to bring this House from their zeal
to the Protestant Religion. Some are tampering still.
Had I seen any Amendment in Counsels, since this Vote
against this Lord—but not seeing that, I have no
ground to alter my opinion. If any thing be offered to
the penning of the Address, not to destroy the scope of
it, I shall agree; but pray keep us to the Debate of
the Address, but not of throwing it out.
The Speaker read the Address against the Duke of Lauderdale.
The House divided upon every Paragraph.
The Speaker.] You may dispose of your own Precedents as you please.
Sir William Temple.] I do not rise to speak as to the
Vote you have passed, but to the Address now before
you. The Grounds of your Proceedings to the Vote
was Common Fame, which I hear mentioned as a just
Reason to believe what you charge this Lord with.
That of "secret and clandestine Advice," how proper
that speech will be in relation to Common Fame, I humbly offer it. I farther offer to your consideration, whether this Address, as it is now penned, will be grounded
as to Reason, and how it does pursue the ends of it. It
becomes the House, in procuring right and reasonable
ends, to pursue the means of it. To "Common Fame,"
I will say something that has not been yet said. It is not
Rumour; but I have met with a definition: "Where men
believe a thing, because they have a moral certainty of
it, though not a legal proof." But whether Common
Fame, or Vulgar Talk, be the same? Not as the Spanish
Proverb, If all men say thou art an Ass, then bray.
The end of this Address is to punish this Lord two
several ways; one, by a Declaration of the Opinion of the
House; and that part is already done, for that is an ingenuous fort of Punishment, and it is Common Fame
now, for it is printed in the Journal of the House; and
the other, by removing him from the King's Presence and
Councils. Now, for the Union of the King and this
House; if I were confident the King would remove this
Lord, the House does proceed prudently; but in case
the King does not remove him, and the House have not
their end, consider, Whether that may not create an unkindness betwixt the King and this House; which, on all
occasions, I would avoid. If you can ground your Opinion of this Lord upon Common Fame, and that you
may have your end to remove this Lord—But if not, I
would consider farther of it, and recommit it.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] If I thought we should have no
better success with this Address than with that against the
Duke of Lauderdale, I would lay it aside. I have seen
him addressed against from a Lord to a Duke. I am sorry to see Popery hang thus over us, and when we enquire
into things, there is no fault. We have pitched upon
this man for the Adviser of the Dissolution of the last Parliament, and when we come to accuse him, and Gentlemen will speak thus for him, nothing can be done.
Pray mend what words you will at the Table, but withstand Popery; and Popish Counsellors, for God's sake!
Mr Paul Foley.] We are pressed, I find, for Reasons
in behalf of our Address. Our first Reason for it was
Common Fame, and I think always that Common Fame
is a ground for us to proceed upon. I have read some
Records, and I find that an Officer, the High Steward,
had power to commit any man upon Common Fame—
When the Parliament come together, they ought to take
notice of the Common Fame of Persons who have ill advised the King. But I have some better Reasons for this
now, for I have heard that this Lord has denied it; but
will any man stand up and deny it for him, that he was
not the Adviser of the last Dissolution? We have heard of
the merits of this Lord, and we have heard every thing
against him, but no Friend he has stands up and denies
that he was the Adviser of the Dissolution; therefore I am
confirmed in it. As for his punishment, I know no other
course we have to take than this; whoever is of opinion
that this Lord should be removed from the King, I think
they have grounds enough. Therefore I am against recommitting it, but you may mend the words at the
Mr Palmes.] I move that you will debate the Address
Paragraph by Paragraph, that the thing may not cool by
re-committing it, or letting it lie on the Table.
Then the Address was read again.
Sir Francis Winnington.] This Address is short; it has
but two bars, the Premises and the Conclusion. Put
out only the words "clandestine and secret," and pass
Colonel Birch.] I have heard Arguments to-day which
I am sorry for, "That persons not zealous enough for
this Address, are against the Protestant Religion." Notwithstanding all these Arguments, I would do as I would
be done by, and what you do, to be in order to your end,
with that little Reason I have. For the zeal I had for
the Address against the Duke of Lauderdale was not
upon Reports, but Certainty; there was Evidence of what
he said about Edicts; and next, about the Scotch Army to
be brought into England, or where they should be commanded; and what he got by that Address, you know.
He was made an Earl, and had three or four thousand
pounds Pension out of your sacred Money for the Navy.
When, by Act of Parliament, we were about to settle the
Trade of both Kingdoms, you know who broke that.
For this present Address, in order to your end, I spent
my powder the other day. I would lay before the King,
that his Counsels may be such as this, and many things
are better for the King to grant, than for you to ask.
In the eye of the World there is ground to believe that
you have Reason to represent to the King these things, &c.
and therefore it is your duty to lay them before him, that
he may redress them of himself; and certainly now it is
most seasonable. I would have a Return of the Address
you are about, before we go about to cure it ourselves.
I am against putting in that of the Dissolution and Prorogation, &c. that I, who am the weakest here, may give
a Reason for what I do, and I would not have one word
said against him about the Prorogations, &c. I would
have you recommit it.
Sir Christopher Musgrave.] It is well observed, "That
in the entrance, the preface does deserve consideration, and
cannot be mended at the Table." If there was but a
word or two amiss, I would do it at the Table; for you
lay the stress of all the Address upon that of the Dissolution of the Parliament. I can say the Dissolution was a
cause of the Papists carrying on their designs, but not the
only cause. Since the Amendments are like to be so
large, pray recommit it.
Sir John Knight.] I desire to consider how far you had
gone two or three days ago, and whether it will be for
your honour to have it said without doors, that you are
an uncertain and inconstant People. Some are for recommitting the Address, but that is to lay it aside. What
you have done in substance the Address contains; two
or three words may be mended at the Table, if thought
fit; and pray put the Question upon "secret and
Mr Garroway.] All this Debate has risen because a
false step was made at first. If things do not cohere, or
a word be left out, it may make it more sense. If you
read it Paragraph by Paragraph, you will see where
any incoherence is, and if it be so, then recommit it.
Mr Harbord.] If I was disposed to say what I can, it
might persuade more, it may be, than it has. But as to
the single cause of all your fears, that may be mended;
and read it Paragraph by Paragraph.
Sir Thomas Meres.] When several Amendments are
moved for, I never saw but it was recommitted; some
things may be left out, other things added; there are four
such exceptions, therefore recommit it.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Whoever is against the whole
thing will be for recommitting it, and who is for it will
be against recommitting it, and so put the Question.
On a Division, the Question for recommitting it passed in the
Negative, 213 to 101.
Sir Christopher Musgrave.] I desire you will leave out
"clandestine and secret."
Colonel Titus.] You cannot fairly leave out the words,
for I would have Gentlemen say in what manner it was
done, for it is a secret to us yet.
Sir Christopher Musgrave.] I am serious, though Titus
turns my words to ridicule. I said not "publickly;" that
goes against your Vote the other day. Pray put the
Question; only omit those words.
Sir Francis Winnington.] (Something he said before that
the Compiler did not hear.) I did not reflect upon Musgrave more than upon all persons that laughed. I
have no reflection upon those that speak their minds in
this House. But now we are not under that severity, as
in the Long Parliament, that we might not reflect upon
Colonel Titus.] I am not of opinion that this Lord
did it not "clandestinely," but am very confident of this,
that he did publickly own it.
"Secret and clandestine" was left out by Vote, [and the Address passed as follows:
"Most Gracious Sovereign,
"We your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal Subjects, the
Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, being deeply
sensible of the manifold dangers and mischiefs which have been
occasioned to this your Kingdom by the Dissolution of the last
Parliament, and by the frequent Prorogations of this present
Parliament, whereby the Papists have been greatly encouraged
to carry on their hellish and damnable Conspiracies against
your Royal Person and Government, and the Protestant Religion now established amongst us, and have had many opportunities to contrive false and malicious Plots against the
Lives and Honours of several of your loyal Protestant Subjects; and having just reason to believe, that the said Dissolution was promoted by the evil and pernicious Counsels of George
Earl of Halifax, do therefore most humbly pray your Majesty,
for the taking away of occasions of distrust and jealousy between
your Majesty and us your faithful Commons, and that we
may with greater chearfulness proceed to perfect those matters now before us, which tend to the Safety and Honour of
your sacred Person and Government, and to the preservation
of the true Protestant Religion, both to ourselves and our
Posterity, That you would be graciously pleased to remove the
said George Earl of Halifax from your Presence and Councils