Monday, March 17.
On the Proviso concerning the Covenant in the Bill for Ease of
"Renunciation of the Covenant for such only as have formerly
Sir John Bramstone.] No man can tell who has taken
it, and who has not, the Registers being lost.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Be it at their perils—If they do not
renounce it, their promotions are all void.
Colonel Birch.] As Mr Waller said, the other day,
"that the Act of Oblivion was not read, when confirmed
by this Parliament," so he may say now, that part of the
Act of Uniformity, which contains the Common Prayer,
was not read—The Act of Indemnity says, "the Covenant
shall never be spoken of more," and you repeal that Act
Mr. Vaughan.] Subscription is but a fallible sign; renouncing it by oath, a true one—The Act of Uniformity made great invasion on the Act of Indemnity; and
now, by this Proviso, you evidently do so, so that the
subject is in a worse estate as to oblivion yet, by
this—Though the Church did admit many that had
taken the Covenant, yet this Proviso does not—This is
to capacitate a man, by incapacitating him; your end is
great and noble, do then the just means to your end—This Law signifies nothing, but to reproach the persons
you would give Ease unto, and give yourselves a discredit.
Sir Robert Carr.] If this Clause will divide the party,
is for it—It is an Act for tender consciences, and can any
man be thought so that has destroyed the Government?
Mr. Waller.] The Act of Uniformity did not make
people confess the taking of the Covenant; this does, and
intrenches upon the Act of Indemnity; and therefore he is
Sir Richard Temple.] Would bring the Laity of the
party into the Church, and this Proviso will fright them
—To make something not in the Act of Indemnity nor
Uniformity, will be a greater breach of the Act of Indemnity.
Mr. Hale.] Mr. Sollicitor North would have it called
"detestable Covenant," but here is that word "unlawful," a greater word; many things are "detestable"
that are not "unlawful"—Would have the Proviso
Mr Powle.] The Committee left out the word "detestable" to avoid any reproach upon persons.
The Proviso passed.
Debate on ingrossing the Bill.
Sir John Duncombe.] Is against all the Bill—As far as
it is for Union, is for it, and the bringing men into the
Church—As to "assent and consent," would have it
taken away; but that will give men an impunity for
not coming to Church; they will never come to Church
—Offers it to consideration, whether mankind will not
generally live after this Law—The Parliament have overcome themselves, and they make this Law "for a year
and to the end of the next Session of Parliament"—If you
should read over and examine your reasons to the King
formerly, against Toleration, they would fly upon you
—You have provided against Popery, and this is a great
party; ambitious men will rise with them, and will support them to your posterity—What will the young men
say at the Universities? "Let us turn our parts to preach
sedition and new lights, and return to the Church, as to
an hospital, when we are old; which, by subscription,
they may get into. No preferment in dull logick."
This will be the effect; they will support one another by
marriages and interests; it will be past your power to
revoke it with all the interest you have—You are to have
an eye over them, and watch them—Dreads the consequence of this part of the Bill—It will work upon all
your concerns and interests—Leaves it to God and you.
Sir John Bramstone.] Supposes you would have every
man to be of some religion, and to be master of his servants; and have the Teacher and his congregation deliver their names to the Parson of the parish.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] You are not making a Bill to
destroy the Church, he hopes—You are not only doing
a new thing in the kingdom, but in all the world—Here
are no limitations in it to Churches, no limitations to
Congregations; it has been no where so, wherever he
has been—It is said, "they are the wiser and richer part
of the nation;" the more is the danger. You do a thing
never tried before, and you put it out of your power to
remedy the inconveniences of it—They, in intermission
of Parliament, may put the kingdom in an uproar, and
in great danger, before you can provide any remedy by
Sir Charles Harbord.] The severity of the Churchmen
has driven eighty families out of town; that has done
us irreparable hurt in our manufactures of wool—Since
the Declaration, they have met Pompi Gratia, and yet
reduced from two to one; restrain them and you increase them—A Bishop, in the northern parts, has told
him, that, since the Declaration, many have come into
the Church—This Bill is for that end.
[The Bill was ordered to be ingrossed.]
Several Grievances concerning the kingdom of Ireland being
in great danger were reported by Sir Trevor Williams.
Lord Fitzharding (fn. 1) .] Can testify many of these things
—Knows many Papists that are Justices of the Peace in
Ireland, and has sat upon the Bench with them—Colonel
Talbot has a troop of horse there, so has Lord Clanrickard.
Earl of Arran (fn. 2) .] Knows of a great many Popish Recusants that are Justices there—The Papists offered an
affront on the fifth of November, a solemn day, to the
Mayor of Clonmell—Colonel Richard Talbot has a troop
of horse there—So many Papists in command and trust
there, a great Grievance to that kingdom! Never a
parish of ours but has one or more Popish Priests in
it; and shall, as occasion serves, farther inform the
House—He has been told, that they have exercised Popish
jurisdiction, in an episcopal manner, in Ireland.
Sir Edward Massy.] The Oath of Supremacy has
been administered to some of them, and has had ill effect;
in Tipperary the Duke of Ormond suffers no Priests,
but there are in all other places—They said, they should
have their religion entire, and would have their lands
again—The King sent his letter to the Lord Lieutenant,
signifying, that it was never in his heart to alter either
the settlement or the government, and orders him to let
it be known in the kingdom; so he hopes that has been
pretty well allayed—For the business of Clonmell, the
Mayor did lay about him, and quieted the tumult—Produces a letter informing him, "That at * * * * there
was a great concourse of people; the Constables, when
the guards came, told them, "that Mass was said there,
and the people wondered they should be interrupted;" but
upon search, no indulgence was found from the King
to have public Popish meetings." You see, by this
letter, they are confident they may do any thing. The
fourteenth of June last, one hundred and fifty four Priests
met five or six thousand people, some well armed, and
shot at those that came to suppress the meeting—They
had Popish authority, and printed several things tending
to the Roman jurisdiction—Knows no body that is a
Popish officer, but Colonel Richard Talbot—Has seen
two or three thousand people at a time, besides the other
number spoken of.
Mr Cheney.] Lord Arran had an account by letter
from the Mayor of Clonmell, and desires it may be read.
Mr Powle.] By what he has already observed, Ireland
must be in a dangerous condition—We have that Kingdom by Conquest, and generally they are under Popish
jurisdiction, and not to be preserved but by the power
of the Conqueror—There has been a general design to
set up the Popish and Irish interest, to out the Protestant
and English—Knows that we are to present the grievances
of the King's meanest subjects, and that the King is
ready to redress them—Presents the Act of Cromwell,
wherein the Irish have free power to enter into all trade,
which gives them intercourse with foreign nations—If
the Irish are thus brought into garrisons (as all Corporations are) they may by this have the military power;
and by being of Corporations they will have the Magistracy, and the chusing Parliament-men, and so have
the Civil power too—An Order of Council also there is,
to forbear any prosecution of Civil actions against persons that have done wrongs in the Rebellion; all the
King's subjects are forbidden it, and a farther promise in
the next Parliament for a general oblivion—It seems, as
Declaration Law has been set up in England, so it has in
Ireland—The condition of the army in Ireland, ever
since the Conquest, has been Protestant—Some part of that
army has been disbanded, and reduced to be less—Whether the Irish have deserved that favour or no, he knows
not—Lord Pore's regiment, and part of the Duke of
Buckingham's regiment, drawn out of Ireland, and when
arrived here, known Popish officers—Talbot put into
command but to break the ice, for many others to follow—The army very much less, and yet the thirty thousand pounds deducted for saving charges, granted out
into Irish Pensions; how safe that is, leaves it to your
consideration—No Bishoprick of Ireland but has its Popish Vicar-General, and every parish has its Popish
Priest to officiate, like the Minister of the parish—They
durst not do this, but from great connivance somewhere
—Peter Talbot, the pretended Archbishop of Dublin,
has excommunicated several Papists for their allegiance.
He was, at the desire of the King, expelled the Jesuits
College in Brussels, for his undutifulness there to the
King— He was intimate with Sir Henry Vane in those
times—This is the best information of the Irish affairs he
can have, and thinks he could not do his duty without
informing the House; and presents the Papists printed
papers in Ireland to be read.
Lord Obrien.] Knows a great part of what has been
said to be true—Thinks that an Address to the King
may remedy the thing—These people do not only what
they do, as Papists, but they set up an authority there of
foreign Princes—As to Commanders in the army, knows
none but Colonel Richard Talbot—But, for other matters,
hopes you will redress them.
Sir Philip Monckton (fn. 3) .] The last Rebellion in Ireland
ended in the death of the late King; and, if a stop be
not put to this, it may be the ruin of this King—Would have
Ireland secured, for his and our safety—They had not the liberty, and knowledge, of arms, as
they now have, and they did great things then; there
was but O Neal, and a few others, but now they have
good Commanders—Talbot is like a General; and they
have fifty Bishops in Ireland—Moves to have him secured
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Here are brought in generally
grievances, by Authority, against Law; nothing is a
grievance till you declare it unlawful. The King's Proclamation, relating to Ireland, is for no other Privileges,
than what the Irish had in the late King's time, King
James's, and Queen Elizabeth's; the vent of their cattle
hither is taken from them; their trade is lost—The Declaration, about the Irish coming into Corporations, was
of force only till rules were made by the Lord Lieutenant, which have been made, and are very satisfactory to
the Protestants—He humbly represents, that that Proclamation from his Master is legal—The business of Clonmell he looks upon as a mad, foolish thing, but hears no
man say it is by order from the King; but if any one can
show that these are tolerated, they are but effects of it.
For what is against Peter Talbot, let him answer for it—What the grievance is does not know, till the illegality
of it be stated.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Is not well versed in the Law of
Ireland, but, if he be rightly informed, Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy ought to be taken, before a man
can be a Justice of the Peace in Ireland; if he do not, it is
contrary to Law—Coventry said, "that, in the Act of Settlement, there is a prohibition for the Papists to settle in
Corporations, till farther rules and directions made by the
Lord Lieutenant"—He concurs fully, that this may be in
an Address to the King, to prevent the growth of Popery there, as well as here—Would prevent their coming
into Corporations; but if he takes the rules right, they
must take Oaths, with a power to the Lord Lieutenant to
grant particular Dispensations, which he would have cautiously granted—Moves for an Address to the King,
things being much altered since Queen Elizabeth's time;
they are very different now, the jurisdiction of the See
of Rome being exercised by authority—Hopes, by this Address, to find that kingdom in a better condition at our next
Sir Robert Howard.] What you have before you is
sufficient to ground an Address upon to the King, for his
care of suppressing Popery—No doubt but that much
exorbitancy has been committed, by the ecclesiastical
part of Romish jurisdiction, much the more pleasant and
profitable—Would have Gentlemen so prepare the Address, either to the examination of the thing, or the Law.
Colonel Birch.] Would never have begun with this
business of England and Ireland, was not he resolved to
have gone through with it—The intercouse of Ireland
and England is lost; where they trade a penny here, they
trade a pound in France, and other foreign places—Does
not understand Latin very well, if he hears it read well—(Reflecting upon the Clerk's ill reading the papers, given in
by Mr. Powle, relating to Peter Talbot's ecclesiastical authority) That tells you of the Pope's authority on this
side the water—Those that are to draw up the Address,
he hopes, will take care to secure these active persons—We cannot believe but that the King will go with us in
this business; we need not doubt in the least, but that
the King will give us an Answer to our Address.
Sir Thomas Meres.] You have a complaint of an Archbishop Talbot, and a Soldier Talbot; you had complaint
of these persons the last Session—In all these points you
have agreed to go to the King before—We are every
Session troubled, and we trouble the King, with Addresses, and still the thing is not done; we must now see the
thing done—For the soldiers, would not have that to mix
Sir Thomas Clarges.] It is said "it is not a grievance
unless illegal;" but Empson and Dudley's case was a
grievance, and that was executing the penal Laws—To
say, "that in Queen Elizabeth's time, King James's, and
King Charles's time, some of the Romish Religion were
in command, and Justices of the Peace in Queen Elizabeth's time;" it must be considered, that when they were
so, there was no national Rebellion; the late general and
national Rebellion had scarce ten men involved in it—When the Rebellion began there, a Parliament was sitting, and, instead of suppressing it, they rather countenanced it—Considering that he, who is now Chancellor
of Ireland, is an Archbishop, believes some great surprizes there from hence, things else could not be as they
are—Consider the season these things are done in; now
thirteen companies of foot, and six troops of horse disbanded there, seventeen or eighteen companies drawn
out for Lord Pore's and the Duke of Buckingham's
regiments, and after such discouragement to Protestants,
thirty thousand pounds a year, saved by these mens remove, disposed of in Pensions to Rebels, or some of
them—The King is abused in it, and should be informed of it—Eight years ago an Archbishop has been met
there with twenty followers—In the late King's time,
no pretended Bishop could make Priests there; the Law
to Priests not so penal as here; but that they should have
such public jurisdiction, he scarce believed it, till he
heard it here—The Irish are the most priest-ridden
people that are; but if the Popish party come into the
Magistracy there, we must look to that—Peter Talbot
was once sent for by this House; he was degraded in
Flanders for abusing the King, and he is so insolent now,
that some great mark ought to be set on him—Would have
all dignified Clergy removed from thence, and the troops
ordered back for the peace of the kingdom—Would
have the business committed.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Finds every man for the Address; hopes it will be with that prudence that carries
duty with it—Sees little notice taken of the advantage
gained in Ireland by the Papists, five millions of acres
being gained by the Rebellion; no expedient ever found,
by either perjuries or forgeries, that the Papists have gained above one million and a half of acres—There is no Corporation upon which Popery can be planted, but with great
difficulty—After all this, believes not one Priest more in
Ireland than ever was, but thinks them more vain,
foolish, and pragmatical than ever before—Nothing
would gratify Ireland more than your Reformation, that
they might be rid of many of them—Ireland wants not
Laws, and if every little drunken quarrel betwixt Papist
and Protestant must be taken notice of here, you will have
work enough—Three hundred years ago, it was præmunire
to act under the Charter of the See of Rome; by the old
Laws, in Sir John Davis's reports, they were suppressed—They would now show themselves better Catholics than
their fathers—Advises that the Address to the King may
be, "that he would see himself obeyed, and that no
foreign power may be owned."—When we ask for too
much, we have the less hope of success—To send for
Talbot hither, would be to send for him to be hanged,
drawn, and quartered—The army is always sufficient to
keep them quiet; and as for the Pensions, no man will
think much of the King's rewarding a repenting sinner—There is but one Catholic Officer in the army—All agree
for an Address, but would have it with all modesty and
Mr Vaughan.] One Proclamation was in general
from hence, for persons to exercise their trade; the other
is to exempt them from suits—Has heard that Talbot has
but a troop, but those in it are able to raise twenty
thousand men—The Attorney has painted Peter Talbot's
doom, and he deserves it—Excommunicating the King's
subjects for their allegiance is unpardonable—If any
two Dissenters here had made such an insurrection, as is
complained of in Ireland, the whole party would have
had the blame and reflection.
Mr. Powle.] How many hundred times has it been
complained of in Parliament, that the King has pardoned offenders too frequently, thereby emboldening them,
though the King has power by law to pardon? The
power for Catholics to come into Corporations in Ireland is unlimited; whether that be lawful, by the Act of
Settlement, without special Dispensation from the Lord
Lieutenant, leaves it to your judgment; with a deterring
men from following their legal actions—Finds the diminishing the army to be very perilous—The Irish grow
insolent, and less English strength is not consonant with
good policy—The public treasure of the nation is not fit to
be employed to private uses—Though the Irish Clergy are
vain and foolish, yet their insolence is grounded upon
some countenance allowed—Would not diminish our complaints, so as not to have them understood by the King.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Every man would be hanged
in the Irish quarters, were the laws put in execution.
Mr Powle.] Criminal actions are not so much the Complaint, as forbidding Civil actions the Grievance.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Let this House judge, as wise
men, what would be done in this case—Our Act of Oblivion extends not to Ireland; but the English Act will not
exempt you in the quarters of the Rebels. Irish Rebels
may be sued; but the English Rebels, that have plundered,
may not. Where suits are stopped on one side for a party,
and let open for another, thinks the exemption from
being sued illegal; but then, how necessary, leaves it to
Mr Garroway.] Either the thing is not worth your
Address, you blowing cool in it, or to screen some persons—If you are not ready for a Question, he has something farther to say.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The House thought this exemption
fit for Ireland; but if not since thought so, it might have
been repealed by the same authority that made it.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Though not twenty Irish Papists
were in the rebellion, and not above a fourth part nocent, it is hard to prove; for it must be proved by persons present.
Mr Swynfin.] The exercise of this dangerous Popish
authority, and the lessening of the English interest, by
letting them into Corporations by a non obstante, are the
two heads comprehended in your Debate—People with
out doors know it; and would have the Address upon
particular Complaint, and Debate thereupon, to the
weakening the English interest there.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Now the House is in a good
disposition, desires the thing may be off our hands—Now
shortly will come down the Bill of Popery, and Friday
you have ordered for the Tax—The rest is a single point,
not breaking into particulars, as this has done.
Mr Garroway.] Thinks him in the right; you represent, only to lay these things before the King, not doubting of his redressing them—Desires to enumerate them
all now, and draw them all in one Address.
Sir Robert Thomas.] Moves to have "Colonel Richard
Talbot forbid employment in England and Ireland, and
forbid to come within five miles of the Court," part of
Sir Robert Carr.] You intend quieting of Ireland, but
you must consider your reputation in this House—Colonel Talbot has served the King in the rebellion in Ireland,
and has served the King in the rebellion here—It is said,
"he is Sollicitor for the Papists in Ireland, and it may be for
ill men;" but to ruin a man unproved, and a man of
reputation! Let us not make a precedent, to reach a man
you would not reach; upon common same to do this,
makes him think there is something more against him—Good fortune may sometimes be a crime.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Differs from Carr—The whole
Debate of the House is grounded upon the assertion of
some of the Members—There is no law against his troop
of horse, a man of no ill actions; and to forbid him the
kingdom for that, before you put a mark upon him!
Let it be asserted what he has done, in particular, illegally; the bare saying "he is a Sollicitor for the Catholics,"
is no ground, but what ill he has done for them—As he
may have done ill, so he has done good, in Ireland and
Sir Thomas Lee.] It is said, "there is nothing in particular against this person;" whether this person being now in
actual command, and the taking public notice of it, is a
thing insecure for that kingdom; by Law he takes it to
be so already—By Law, no convicted Recusant can come
within four miles of the Court, without the King's special command; and the notion is, for "Talbot's having
no access to his Royal Person," to which he is made incapable already by the Law of England.
Sir Trevor Williams.] Is informed that the Duke of
York has turned many Protestants out of his troops, and
taken in Talbot.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Assured the contrary, that
none were changed.
Lord Obrien.] There were but two people put into
Talbot's troop, and they were his relations, about a
Sir Thomas Higgins.] Is informed, that he has Protestants
in his troop, and is sure he has a Protestant in his bed;
and has heard he keeps a Protestant Chaplain in his family—Would not have you so severe as to brand a person,
when there is nothing against him but same, he having
served the King both abroad and at home.
Mr Garroway.] Looks upon him quasi Papist, and no
otherwise—Would not have the thing go to a Committee.
Sir John Duncombe.] Those that know Talbot, separate him from this notion now in Debate, and look upon
him as a gallant man—It is a severe thing to be named
in the House of Commons, and he may fall out to be
the single man named here—You have said enough to
give him caution how he carries himself.
Colonel Birch.] Desires that he, and all of the Popish
religion, may be removed out of command or trust in
Mr Harwood.] Would have it represented, that they
are more dangerous in Ireland than here; but would not
have him named in particular.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] When the House was so sensible
of this person the last Session, wonders why now he
should be exempted—He has been in Ireland, but will
not say what he has heard there; but would hear any
man tell him, in what regiment, and under whom he
served, against the rebels—He has heard that a Protestant
has been displaced to put him in, which discourages the
rest—It will be made out, that he procured a Commission under the Great Seal, to enquire into all the estates of
Ireland—Would have the thing committed at large.
Mr Waller.] Accusation ought to be free, and may
be allowed free and open; but to commit a man, and
not charge him, hard—Papist is a crime, that makes
him liable only to the laws in being against him; to
blemish and speak ill of a man, is dangerous.
Mr Powle.] Will not only be as tender of the lives of
men, but of their reputation, as he would be of his
own—Because there is but one Papist in command in
Ireland, would have him turned out, to be none there—To that of being "named in this House," would not
have him countenanced here; and after having him
"named here the last Session with so many marks upon
him," it is a strange boldness in him to take military
command since—Should you countenance people that
presume to send an Ambassador to their own Prince,
naming himself Agent for the Catholics of Ireland?—Appeals to the Privy Counsellors—If so, he hopes this
House will set a mark on him—Whoever desires you not
to impeach a man, desires you not to punish him—5 Hen. IV. Complaint was made to the King, in Parliament, of his Confessor; the King, though he said he
had nothing against him, yet, upon the desire of the
Commons, would put him out of his service, and removed him. 29 Hen. VI. Somerset and Dudley the same—Dr Turner impeached the Duke of Buckingham upon
Sir Charles Harbord.] Thinks it a wonderful thing that
this man should be put into command—This commission of his shakes the Protestant Interest in Ireland—Thinks him fit to be removed.
On other Grievances.
Colonel Birch.] Would have "pressing men" and
"the imposition on Coals" referred to the Committee
to bring them within this Address.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Delivers the Proclamation for the
imposition on Coals. (It was 12d. a chaldron, without
Act of Parliament.)
Mr Secretary Coventry.] It wants the Preamble of the
Council, and is not the same Petition mentioned.
Mr Garroway.] Hopes the Citizens will take warning,
and not make any more Addresses to the King of this
Sir William Thompson.] This Proclamation was for
the safety of Coals during the war; the city gave charge
to their Commanders not to take a penny; they had no
more than what was voluntarily given; the imposition
was never commanded.
Colonel Strangways.] The city says, no money was
taken; they may thank the Parliament for it; but hears
of bonds taken—Necessity for fire is a great matter; so
he hopes that necessity will be taken away.
Sir Thomas Lee.] This hereafter may be taken for
granted, upon the Council-books—Poor seamen are afraid to say any thing, for fear of being pressed, and so
will say no more of the bonds taken.
Mr Powle.] There is a Proclamation likewise "requiring all the King's subjects, upon any injury received
from the King's soldiers, to complain to the Officer for
justice; and if he does not do it, the next Justice of the
Peace to take the examination, and certify it to the Lords
of the Council, where the King will take care of the
thing"—He knows of no exemption any man has from the
course of the law; the law has not this course, but when
Hannibal ad portas, which, he thanks God, is not the case
now—This may introduce martial law; for the Lords
of the Council cannot hear every complaint, and will
refer it to the Court-martial. (The Proclamation was
Sir John Duncombe.] This often happens to what is
intended for the best, it has the worst construction.
Complaint upon the place first, and so to the Justice of
Peace, that the Officer may not abuse the King, the
King will hear the Officer—The Proclamation does not
say, "the Justice of Peace shall not do his duty," who
is as much at liberty as before—There is no ill intention
in it—By this, upon the quarters, speedy justice may
Mr. Vaughan.] We desire "speedy justice," but from
persons in Commission.
Sir Robert Carr.] This Proclamation is only that the
Officer may do his duty, if negligent; and stops nothing
of the Justice's authority.
Sir Thomas Meres.] A country fellow is cut on the
pate, and he must go to the Officer, who is, by this
Proclamation, the Justice of the Peace, and the Justice
the Officer's Clerk. Possibly the Officer may not write
well, though a good soldier, and may have need of a
Clerk—But would have this thing explained, for the
case of the people.
Sir Thomas Byde.] Informs the House, of a soldier
brought to Hertford Sessions, and forcibly taken out of
the Court by his Officer.
Mr Garroway.] Since Sir Richard Temple spoke in defence of the thing, he finds it worse. If the Officer has
power, so has the Justice of Peace, and they may fall
together by the ears—Would not mix power with the
Mr Vaughan.] Commends Sir John Talbot's zeal (who
gave an account of his proceedings in justice-affairs in his
company) but not his justice. Nulli negabimus, nulli differemus, &c.—This Proclamation is against Magna Charta;
here is great delay of justice; there may be ill consequences of it, though the King had no ill intention in it.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] You are at war, and let no
man say it is a sea war only; it is war, and the Hollanders
may land here. War cannot be maintained without soldiers;
and no Gentleman can say, that soldiers were ever managed with less trouble to the people.
Mr Powle.] Proclamations issue out usually with the
word "rogamus," which is not "to command"—Serjeants
have been sent for Justices, that have not obeyed the
Proclamation; the soldier is still a subject, and not exempt from the law—The Justice of Peace is made a
hackney (and you make him break his oath by suffering
this Proclamation) to the soldier—Put it all together, and
it is a direct prohibition and discountenancing of the law;
and hopes you will petition the King to recall it.
Lord St. John.] Complains that a regiment has been
quartered in Hampshire, at five-pence a meal, to the ruin
of the poor victuallers, who have not been paid any thing
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Lockhart, recommended by a
great Lord of Scotland, his character; he was son of a Lord
of Session, and raised himself under the Hamiltons; when the
Duke of Hamilton came into England, he was a Major in
that army; at that time he married Cromwell's niece, and
held intelligence with Cromwell—Was forbidden Sterling
when the King was there—There were but three false in
Scotland to the King, and he was one: He commanded
Dunkirk for the Usurpers, and was bitter enough before
the King's Declaration from Breda—When the Rump
was here, Lockhart was found so dextrous, that he prevailed with Mazarine that the King should not be looked
on at St John de Luz—Leaves the man to the consideration of the House how fit for employment.
Sir Robert Dillington.] He is informed in Hampshire,
that they must either allow that five-pence a day, or keep
the soldiers in their houses—He knows not this Lockhart.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Hopes the King will be moved to
disband these, when the war shall be ended; wishes the
Scots and Irish had been transported rather to Scotland and Ireland, than called here to burden us; they
would do better in their own country; and those raised
in England would do better for tillage, servants wages
rising every where.
Colonel Birch.] Would have it in the Address, "Pressing men from their wives and children."
[To proceed in the consideration of these, and other Grievances, to-morrow.]
Tuesday, March 18.
[After Debate, an Address was ordered to be prepared to be
presented to his Majesty, representing the danger of the English
Protestant Interest in Ireland, and directions were given to insert
several other Grievances in the said Address.]
Wednesday, March 19.
[The ingrossed Bill for the Ease of Dissenters was read the
Mr Waller.] Usury, during the time of Popery, was
unlawful, as supposed to be against the Law of God.
We know not the Will of God but by his two Books,
the Law of God and the Law of Nature—A man gives
away all he has, for his liberty, to summa potestas—He
may do and take what he will from his body, but his
mind cannot be given or taken; he may command me
not to speak my mind, and not to do my mind, and, in
a word, to be hypocritical: Though this be a violence
in general, it will be a violence but upon a few—In the Inquisition of Spain, a few shall suffer rather than many. Tacitus calls it "a good Government for a man to do what he
will, and speak what he thinks."—Restraint is against the
genius and whole complection of the nation—Let these
Dissenters alone, and people will despise them; punish
them, and the people [will] have compassion for them—The Quakers suffered bravely, and were the more esteemed; the persecuted party ever gets uppermost—In Queen
Mary's time those of the reformed religion were persecured, and they soon got uppermost. In Queen Elizabeth time, in our times, "Prelacy and Popery" were
coupled together, and people flocked to Mr Cunning's
congregation—Neither sons of Cavaliers nor Cavaliers
were admitted into the Convention, and yet they brought
in the King, because that was then the persecuted party
—If you believe the King, this liberty has kept Peace,
and you have had proof of it—This Bill is according to
the Law of God, Law of Nations, and Complection of
the Nation, and he would pass it.
Sir John Duncombe.] Appeals, if ever any thing in
England of persecution to Dissenters—Waller had liberty
in his own house, and his friends, by former Acts—Nothing now persecuted but Popery, and therefore, by his
argument, Popery must thrive and be uppermost—This
Bill is quite different from the Law of God—Where are
the persons that must visit these congregations, and examine and inspect what doctrine they teach? This is not
according to the Law of God; Smiths, Shoemakers, and
Coblers preach. If this be according to the Law of
God, he must read the Bible again—Would have Gentlemen tell him, that are so much for this Bill, in what
part of the world the Church has no power to enquire
what men preach? By this consequence, you will leave
them to say what they will—Law after Law, Reason
after Reason; has been against them these twelve years,
and is against the Bill now.
Sir Charles Harbord.] Josephus, notoriously known,
tells us, "that the two sects of the Jews, the Saducees and
the Pharisees, held, the one Spirits, and the other no Spirits, nothing more contrary; but they never divided,
they were all united as to the public Government"—A book,
lately published, "of the Rise and Progress of the Netherlands (fn. 4) ," tells you, that mighty things have been done there
by what you intend in this Act; the severity of Spain, and their
Plantations, have ruined them, and will us, if we look not
to it—In our maritime towns we have not the sixth part of
the people—The populous places of Brabant, by this persecution, have been dispeopled, and Holland has got sufficiently by it, and so did we—He confesses that he has communicated with them in Holland, and will do it again—He has had as good advice, and as learned upon it, as
any man can give him, which held it lawful—Hopes
this people that have Ease by the Bill will occasion you to
Sir Philip Warwick.] You have the Genius of the Nation, God, and the Complection of the People, spoken to—As to the Genius of the Nation, till Popery made us all
afraid, he has endeavoured to make the foundation of
the Church so full as to abide a good superstructure—Look upon the Jewish story of the sects, and they were never
[there] till the time of Captivity, and never [here] till our
Rebellion, till the Temple was shaken. Morality is not so
planted in man, but that Customs and Constitutions destroy all that; Cain and Abel owed duty to Adam—Libera mens overthrows all Christianity. Christians at first
were but a body of men, and they planted the Church,
and Excommunication in the Church; and he was no Christian that was out of it—Never were men, by nature, either Jews or Christians. By this liberty you will lose
all Registers, Marriages, and Genealogies. Let not great
words make a noise; you give them liberty, and not
barely indemnity—He is perfectly against the Bill.
Colonel Birch.] Doubts not but the people will be
sheep, quiet and peaceable; and had it been only to mark
them in the forehead, he is not against it—Doubts not but
in a short time we shall see that the enforcing Laws upon
these people, and crying out against the infallibility of
the Pope, are not consistent—You would not have the Papists govern you, and that is not a persecution of them.
Dr Burwell.] They grow numerous: If you pass this
Act, you give away the peace of the nation—A Puritan
was ever a rebel; begin with Calvin—These Dissenters
made up the whole army against the King; the destruction of the Church was then aimed at—Pray God it be
not so now!
Sir John Birkenhead.] There was not a Pharisee till the
fall of the Persian Monarchy; the Dispensations then
were to the Proselytes of the Gate, viz. Strangers; that
is the true case of the Jews—Subscription of the Clergy
is "omnibus his articulis;" by this Subscription in the Bill,
they will have twenty-six of the thirty-nine Articles left
out, subscribing only the doctrines; you have not in the
Creed ten articles of it, nor ever thought so. Had you
a list of these men you ease, the King might have apprized
[you of] some; now you will have Preachers that have had
their hands in his father's blood—Here are two thousand
of these Preachers already, and there may be ten thousand more—Shall the old officers of the army count
numbers and know persons? They may come like Venner, [the fifth Monarchy-man] with their arms.
Sir Robert Howard.] Will not trouble you with the
rabbinical law, nor history; but offers to consider, that one
time you were against this, and now are changed, thinking
it more fitted and calculated for the nation—The Parliament must do something at all times—They are not such
enemies as is said; the Act of Oblivion has made a
grave for that—Will you now crush the expectation of
the nation in this thing? Thoughts are active in mens
minds, when they have hope for something—Should
have thought of making the King's Declaration a Law
for a time; but that being not to be done, will you not
compose people's minds at home, when all abroad is in
distraction?—If this Bill be too much, or too little; if
matters be too short in it, you may lengthen them; if
inconvenient, you may alter them—You will leave, by
laying the Bill aside, as much disorder in the imaginations of the people, as in the thing itself; therefore
would pass the Bill.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] In the main, we may fling out
this Bill, or keep it, and not offend the Law of God—There
is some inconvenience as to Toleration; indifferent without limit—Does think the honour of the House engaged
by voting and acting; he hopes it may be mended in the
Lords House, and with that hope sends it up.
[The Bill passed.]
Thursday, March 20.
A Message from his Majesty was read by Mr. Secretary
Coventry, to this effect: "That the King intends a recess on
Thursday next [the 27th instant] and would have the House prepare such Bills [of importance] as are before them
(fn. 5) , against that
time, as well that of the Supply, as others."
A Bill for rebuilding the Navy-Office [was read the second
Mr Sacheverell.] This Bill seems to him, as if the
Surveyor-General had liberty, by this Bill, to take in
ground already built upon.
[It was ordered to be committed.]
A Bill for exempting the Freemen of London, from Butlerage
and Prizage, was read. (Imperfect.)
Mr Attorney Finch.] This Bill seems to him not good
for the King, Subject, nor Citizen; no Freeman can have
benefit of Prizage, if not resident within the city, by a
Statute of Henry VIII. If you carry it to foreigners,
out of London, their absence loses them their Prizes,
though Freemen—Let not the trade of wines be driven
all over England, by such as are not Freemen of London.
Mr Garroway.] The Freemen, if not burnt out of
London, would never have gone out of London; there
are no convenient houses for them, most of them being
small, and for shops; and they must trade only to
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Great complaint was made, when
the Tax-Bill passed, by the Citizens, for abatement;
and that persons living out of town had no chargeable
offices in the city, and paid little to the tax, and yet
traded—Three thousand houses empty; no want of
this; this will make some farther encouragement to dispeople London.
Sir William Thompson.] If Freemen of London have
Prizage, that wine pays no duty of Butlerage to the
King—People that go out of the kingdom have no Prizage—If you pass the Bill, the King will have the duty,
otherwise they will have it that have the patent of
[The Bill was rejected.]
Friday, March 21.
[The Bill for Supply was brought in, ingrossed, and laid on
Mr Garroway.] Desires that the Money-Bill may not be
read till Tuesday next, because you have the Bill of Popery, with (fn. 6) Amendments, returned from the Lords,
where he hears we have been strangely represented—We
are all concerned to see this Bill of Popery dispatched,
and to clear the reputation of this House—Therefore
would have the Money-Bill, for the present, laid aside.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] 'Tis very reasonable that the
fears and jealousies of Popery should be removed, but
would not defer the Tax-Bill so long—Would go upon
the Bill of Popery to-day, and would not have the King
think we take any thing ill from him, who has promoted
this Bill so much in the House of Lords, by his countenancing it.
Sir John Coventry.] Hopes in time we may make this
Bill of Popery a good one—This Bill has had hard passage hither again: If we believe common fame, it nearly miscarried in the Lords House—Many more Grievances may come betwixt this and Tuesday, and would have
that day for the Tax-Bill.
Sir Thomas Osborne.] "Common fame" came never
from nobody, but by somebody; the Gentleman ought
to tell you by whom it came—We cannot take notice of
what is done in the Lords House.
Mr Powle.] Hopes that our zeal for this Bill is not
looked upon as an offence to the King, but acceptable to
him—"Common fame!" No man can nominate on the
sudden, who—This discourse cannot be without some
fire; in time it may come out, and those Gentlemen will
tell you, when they can, where they had it—Moves for
Tuesday, and hopes no ill intentions can be made out of it.
Sir John Duncombe.] Would have you look at the end
you would be at—Go upon this Bill from the Lords;
you are masters of your Orders—Go and ask satisfaction
of the King for your Grievances, and he is sure you will
Sir Robert Carr.] Finds no difference among Gentlemen in the thing. 'Till we read the Amendments the
Lords have sent down, we cannot tell whether satisfactory
or not; we may possibly agree at a Conference. Why
will you do things that may look like dislike, when it is
not? Would not have a blemish on the Supply; do the
one and not the other.
Colonel Birch.] Hears much said of "common fame"
—It seems to be now the Lord Keeper, Bishop Williams's
case, in 1614, or 1616—"Common fame from the House
of Lords!"—Would go with safe steps for the King and
kingdom; one thing is before you, that the King may
not think we stop his business—Would have this Tax
Bill for Tuesday, and hopes by that time we shall give
such advice, as may secure the King and kingdom—Stands up to remind you that this is a parliamentary way
of "common fame."
Sir Courtney Poole.] Thinks we are upon such a point
that we have reason to think it will startle the King—"Common fame" is not a right way for the Lords or
the King, therefore would not insist upon it.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Tells the Speaker that he turns the
Question to another thing—He would have the Question
for the Bill of Popery, and the other Question, for
Tuesday, firsted and seconded—Demands whether he will
be pleased to own that to be the Question; and demands
whether he can deny that that Question was firsted,
seconded, and thirded?
Mr Cheney.] There has been something on your
hands these two or three days, which is to be ready with
the Tax, " the Grievances"—Would not put a certain
day for the Tax, and doubts not of redress of Grievances
in due time.
Mr Powle.] Gives an account of the " Address about
Grievances," which cannot be finished till the Committee can see the inspection into the affairs of Ireland, the
Secretary not having been attended, and could not be dispatched—This is not for the service of the King, his satisfaction, and good of the nation, and therefore we cannot
in conscience part with the Money-Bill, till that business
of Ireland be determined; but he has reason to take hold
of things of "common fame," when some great Officers
have told the King, "that, if the Money Bill passed not,
the King may be supplied otherwise."
Lord Cavendish.] Thinks those Bills now depending,
to quiet the minds of the King's subjects, as necessary as
any whatsoever—There are Grievances of an high nature,
besides what are already depending; some are the root
of all those Grievances, the authors of these disturbances,
and those are evil Counsellors—Because other Grievances
are not named, hopes people will not think there are not
more, therefore moves for Thursday for "Grievances."
Lord St. John.] Should "common fame" have
weight, you would have much to do; therefore would
lay it aside—As to the Bill of Popery before you, he
has so great love and tenderness for the King's person,
that, without this Bill, neither the King nor we can be
safe—Would have a little time to consider these things,
and would have Tuesday.
Sir Robert Howard.] Are you afraid of any trick being
put by the Money Bill? You are masters of every day,
and of what is fit to be done.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Does any body imagine no other
business but this Bill? If there was none, it could not be
before Monday—Would have this Debate on Monday.
[The Debate was adjourned to Monday by consent.]
On the Lords Amendments to the Bill of Popery: "The Proviso of Peerage: Office of Inheritance, or for Life, granted
by the King, or any of his Predecessors, to enjoy it, notwithstanding this Oath: Peers to take the Oaths the Parliament sitting
Sir Thomas Lee.] Knows not how these Amendments
may cohere; no man can carry the Bill in his memory.
Would adjourn the Debate till the afternoon.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] It is reasonable, that people
should look what coherence there is in the Bill, and
he is for adjourning.
Mr Vaughan.] It is fitter to be considered before dinner than after—Would not debate it in a thin House in
Sir Thomas Meres.] "Public office" must be the issue
upon tryal for the "petty offices"—He would please the
Lords in it.
Mr Powle.] He cannot agree with the Lords, because
it may make a Question, what a "public office" is—Takes not the King's and Queen's servants to be "public
"offices"—Knows not what rule of Law can determine
it—Would not agree to "public offices."
[It was rejected.]
On the Amendment of leaving out "the Queen's and Duke's
Mr Secretary Coventry.] The Queen has many Gentlemen that made no doubt of being with her; "the
Queen's servants," in rigour, are "the King's servants"
—It will be a mighty affliction to the Queen—Many
have been long with the King, and served him in great
dangers with great fidelity; the King would be loth to
have them taken from him.
Sir Jonathan Trelawney.] Would agree with the Lords
Amendments "to the Queen's and the Duke's family;"
to "the Test of the Doctrine of Transubstantiation;"
would also agree with the Lords Amendments—The Duke
has many Protestant servants, and most are so—Some
Papists have been long with him, and in great dangers
for him—The Duke has deserved well from this House and
Nation, has fought two of the greatest naval battles, and
exposed his person, and hopes you will not deprive him
of his servants.
Mr Attorney Mentagu.] The Queen, Consort to the
King, and an alien, may have several persons of that
religion, but the greatest number of them are Protestants.
Lord Cornbury.] Be pleased to remember, that the
Proviso he brought in for "the Queen's servants," was
not so happily worded as he could have wished the
thing; the thing desired is so reasonable. Certainly if
the Queen designed more Papists, she would have had them
before now; the number is few, and they are persons of
credit and merit; the King gives her liberty to chuse.
As far the greater numbers are Protestants, so she is as
kind to us Protestants, as to the Papists; therefore
would agree—Her servants are sworn to herself in the
Oath of Service; they also swear Allegiance to the King
—Consider, that she brought a portion of five hundred
thousand pounds into England, besides many other advantages.
Sir William Killegrew.] You will bring in more Portuguese, if the English Papists be turned out, and they will
never understand one another how to serve the Queen.
Sir John Birkenhead.] Almost admires that any man
would deny the Queen what he would not be denied himself—Should not we think it hard, if we should marry a
Princess abroad, of our kingdom, that she should be denied the choice of her servants? Put it into the scale;
it is the rule of the Gospel; make it any man's case—It
will be hard otherwise, therefore would agree with the
Sir Charles Harbord.] This Queen has brought more
to the Crown of England, than any six Queens before
ever brought in money—She is a person of the most inoffensive carriage that ever was—The principal person
about her is Lady Suffolk, and she is a Protestant—Knows not the rest.
Colonel Birch.] Is for the rule of "doing as we would
be done by," but would know what we do—It is said,
"most are women, therefore safe"—It is said, "that all
her servants are sworn." Would have the roll of them
brought, that those that are sworn, by such a day, may
Mr Attorney Finch.] Would agree, because it is a
degree of severity this House never insisted on.
This House never questioned how far Articles of State or
Marriage; never judged them—As your Address to the
King is about the Proclamation, &c. natural-born subjects cannot stay—It is a degree of severity that never
was before. She came over with expectation of other
usage than barely Articles, and having had more, it is
hard. The best part of her conversation being her Religion, this may put her upon a severity of giving no
quarter to her Protestant servants—If you be for a certain time, you must not look farther back than this day—You have advanced far to a suppressing of Popery,
when you have reduced people into a corner, where you
may find them, and have them.
Mr Vaughan.] It is said, "that this of the "Queen's servants" is a greater mark of severity than ever was before"—He thinks it one of the errors of the Long Parliament,
that they went no farther with the "then Queen's servants"—Our business is to add to the laws against Popery, and not to repeal them—If I come into France, I
have civil protection; those that came into England with
the Queen, under safe conduct, have so; but more English Priests than Foreigners, is against law—You do not
hear of Murderers or Felons in Newgate, but a Priest
is with them—Wishes the Duke had no Papists about
him, they do harm; and would have all men here leave
affections at the door.
Sir Robert Carr.] One has told you, how few Papists
the Queen has in her family, and what encouragement
Protestants about her have—The Queen desires not to
increase the number of them—Putting the Queen upon
this trouble may put her upon sending for Portugal servants, and put out the Protestant—Divers Papists have
served the Duke at sea, and beyond sea—It crosses not
your Bill; and other people cannot be encouraged to
crowd under them.
Sir Richard Temple.] Your "adhering" in this point
will cross your end for more Protestants—When the
Queen sees these few removed from her, he knows not the
consequence; Articles of Marriage are Law in all nations—If you agree not to this Proviso, she is put upon
greater hardships than any other subjects, not to have whom
she will about her—If you restrain it, would have it to
those in ordinary only, and from such a time.
Sir Thomas Higgins.] The "Duke's servants" you will
reach under the notion of the "King's servants;" they
are sworn to him; they have fought for the kingdom
with the Duke—We ought to pray God to inform the
Queen, but you go about to lay an affliction upon her.
Sir Robert Southwell.] Hears of the Treaty the King
has made with Portugal upon the Queen's marriage; she
has brought Tangier and Bombay in portion; she is successive, and her right entire to that Crown, in the East
and West-Indies, very considerable.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Wonders to hear the "Articles of
Marriage" called "Law," and "that become Law"—We could not find the Declaration to be so. 3 James, 4
chap. The Parliament, in that preamble, thought the
kingdom so unsafe by reason of the Papists, that they
were consined within four miles of their dwellings, without leave; not to come to Court, by that Statute, unless
commanded. And now you will let them, by this Proviso, reside in the Court, either of the King or Heir apparent—If once the hole be made, knows not how wide it
will grow—Would keep the cloth as whole as we can.
Sir Thomas Meres.] You cannot mend the thing, for it
is your own; no body has instanced but in the Queen;
the argument of "Law" is given up as to "Articles"
in that point; let us not, by Law of Courtesy, void another Law—We cannot give them greater encouragement.
Mr Waller.] "Do as you would be done by" is a current Law—A man may find fault with the equitableness
of a Law—Why will you geminate a thing? His Highness does as much by example as precept.
Mr Mallett, extravagantly interrupted him.] Who said
the Duke is under another notion than the Queen? He
is a subject, and hath nothing to do with foreign Articles
as the Queen has.
Earl of Ancram.] Would not make, nordestroy, Laws
by a side-wind. If you discourage the Queen, you will
make an exclusive Law, in effect, for the Crown never to
marry one of her religion (fn. 7) , unless we may marry at
home—The Queen's merit is so beyond his expression
that he shall say nothing of it—Queen Elizabeth was a Protestant, and, besides having no reason to leave that religion,
another title was set up against her by one of that religion;
Papists her only enemies—Our Queen is of that religion; her example great to our religion—There is more
a punctilio than danger in it, and he would agree with the
Colonel Birch.] If any Gentleman varies in his opinion, he tells you why—What he has heard now,
"that Popish Princes must [not] marry with us hereafter," must alter his opinion—England's ruin was dated
from the time of such marriages—Hopes, that seeing it
will have that good effect, that no Popish Prince will
marry with us, it will be better than he thought of, and
now he is more for it than before—Would not agree to
that part of it.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Thinks you may agree with the
Lords in toto, in the "Duke's Proviso;" he being a
subject, it causes no marks of singularity—You have
desired that some persons may be rewarded by the King;
"the Queen's servants" are the King's—This is not so—Would not have you receive a Law particularly for him,
and would not have any thing particular to him.
Sir Thomas Osborne.] There is no Law for a "subject's"
servants; the Duke is one, and moves that he may be in
no other condition.
[The Amendment was rejected.]
On the Amendment of reading "Allegiance," instead of "Obedience."
Sir Thomas Lee.] The Oath of "Allegiance," and
"Obedience," are two things; the Oath of "Allegiance"
is given at Leets.
Sir Anthony Cope.] Has heard of many Catholics that
would take the Oath of Allegiance, but not of Obedience. 3 James.
Colonel Birch.] You may amend the Lords with
an Amendment the statute mentioned, 3 James—Would
have the Amendment referred to that statute.
[Agreed to, with this addition, "which Oath of Allegiance
is contained in the Statute made in the third year of King
[On the other Amendment of leaving out the Clause against
a Non vult ulterius prosequi.]
Mr Attorney Finch.] If you hope it in any information at the King's suit, remembers not that the Attorney
ever did it, because no end of it; if he gives not the
noli prosequi, which is but two shillings and eight-pence,
there are thirteen pounds for a pardon.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The thing is not pardonable, and so
no charge of thirteen pounds for a pardon; takes the
thing, that the person is disabled, from the time of conviction, for that office, or any other.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Remembers the last Session upon
ulterius non vult, &c.—If an ulterius will void it, you
have more reason to stick to it.
Mr Vaughan.] If the Oath and the Tests are not taken,
the office becomes void for want of them, and entitles
another to them—Presumes that of indictments the
hardest part of the Bill, if upon information.
Mr Sollicitor North.] In all penal Laws some part goes
to the King, and the King cannot dispense with the Informer's part.
Mr Powle.] It is a mistake in the Sollicitor; many penalties, in Statutes relating to Popery, go not to the
King, but to the Informer and Poor; and yet the information is tam pro domino Rege, quam pro seipso—Would be
satisfied from the learned Gentlemen in this point.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Some little penalties, not worthy of observation, go from the King to the Informer
and Poor; but scarcely an Act of consequence with that
example—If Dominus Rex ulterius non vult prosequi, make
what information you will; if a pardon be precedent, the
whole is pardoned, because no conviction of the offence—As long as Supremacy is in being you cannot restrain,
though by the word Nusance.
Sir Thomas Meres.] No man thinks much of the King's
pardoning, but would hinder the King from importunities in pardons.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] In the Act of the eleven Months
Assessment there are penalties the King has no part of,
and five hundred pounds penalty for the receiver.
Serjeant Seys.] In Henry VI's time a great penalty about
exportation of wool, and the King no party, was in the
Informer only—A misreturn to this House, that the
King has no share.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Would not give encouragement to these men—Taking off the King's part of the
penalty will make them think it is no offence against the
King—Where the King and kingdom are concerned, it is
fit the King should have his share.
Mr Powle.] Those are to be punished that come into
places at Court without the Tests; and those may easily
obtain pardons—The Sheriff gives damages to the public
by a false return; and therefore it is a natural argument
that the King's pardon is not pleadable in an action of debt
brought against him for that false return, and he would
have this so.
[The amendment was rejected.]
Saturday, March 22.
A Bill for uniting parishes within the city of Exeter [was read the
Mr Swynfin.] "All present tithes and profits," not
mentioned in the Bill, what they are; besides the uniting
seventeen parishes into eight, and contracting the maintenance of the Ministers and laying a new charge on the
whole city—The great argument is, that so many agree
to it—Patrons have good reason to agree; the presentations before were small, and now they will be greater;
and the Mayor has reason, because the Corporation may
levy money at pleasure; but what the inhabitants will do he
cannot imagine—The Uniting concerns parishes, and that
will extremely alter the case for levies for the Poor and all
other parish concerns, especially considering that the Bishop's see being there, the learned Prebendaries may be
helpful to them without uniting them—Consider how many of the inhabitants are charged by chimney-money, trade,
and excise, and whether you will lay another tax now? Agree to commit it "to unite, but not to lay any charge upon
the inhabitants." It will be otherwise a dangerous Bill.
Colonel Strangways.] This is "a dangerous Bill" for
those that oppose the Church of England, that they may
preach placentia—As before the presentation was forty
pounds a year, by this Bill it will be a hundred pounds
a year—Would not have bonds taken for resignation; if
they do, would have them punished—The Churchmen,
it seems, by this Bill have care of souls as well as trade.
Dissenters would have inconsiderable men there that they
may baffle them—There is no Law for the Dean and
Chapter to officiate—Would commit it.
Sir Lancelot Lake.] You have taken off the imposition
of twelve-pence a Sunday for absence from church—That is a far greater Tax than this Bill will be for maintenance, therefore would commit it.
[The Bill was committed.]
On the Lords Proviso in the Popery Bill; "The hurt of
taking away any profit from a Peer in Parliament, or out of
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Our Bill does in nothing take
away Peerage, but upon such as are in any public offices;
they are safe as to the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy, as they are Peers.
Mr Vaughan.] 'Tis fit for a Committee of the whole
[This Proviso was rejected. The rest were committed.]
Mr Vaughan, to the other Proviso.] Some are excepted
by name in the Proviso; 'tis more for their honour to be
thrown out now in the House, than at a Committee,
with some reflection.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] There are many reasons why
you cannot, during the war; many of these Gentlemen,
named in the Lords Proviso, have been sent for from beyond sea, and have quitted good employments there—They are of great use here; good engineers and good officers; and some of these have been men sent for particularly for some uses—Sees not what end you can have in it.
Mr Powle.] Cannot agree with the Lords in this Proviso—Does not think it convenient to give allowance to
persons we know not, without knowing the service they
have done—They have openly boasted themselves the
King's best subjects—It would give them too great an
advantage—They are out of the Act, by this Proviso,
as well as all others; such persons are in better condition
than before, and they have given us the occasion of all
this trouble by their employment.
Mr Harwood.] Is Colonel Panton's (one of the persons
named) very good friend and old acquaintance. But
how many Protestants have served the King, without any
particular mark of your allowance, and will you give it
Mr Milward.] You make them in a worse condition
than those that have fought against the King, by not
passing this Proviso.
[It was agreed to, with some Amendments.]
On the Proviso of the Peerage.
Sir Richard Temple.] Every Baron, and so upwards,
has a salary or fee from the King, in his patent of creation, then this Act will reach them; this Proviso is
"singly quâ Peerage" to be exempted from the Tests,
and not to bring them under the notion of Commons.
Mr Vaughan.] The office of Great Chamberlain is now
annexed to the Earl of Lindsey's family (fn. 8) , as formerly to
the Earl of Oxford's.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Thinks that every man that takes
employment, or office, and lives in the country, must go
to the Quarter Sessions to take the Test; if our Session
happens not right with our sitting here, he must go down
into the country, unless you alter it to take the Test in
the Chancery, or at the House door—Consider that it is
not proper for both or either House of Parliament.
[The Proviso was agreed to.]
On the Proviso of "Grants for Life, Lives, or Years, on
Mr Powle.] "Pro servitio impenso, or impendendo," a
valuable consideration in Law.
Mr Milward.] Your care is for offices, and grants
by patent are so; as for offices, a man hath given the
King five thousand pounds for an annuity for life, or
years; you may as well take away a man's lands—Would
have it mended thus, "all grants that depend not upon
Mr Powle.] Is willing to comply with the Lords, as to
their "Peerage," but this comes to all persons whatsoever; your intention is to void all "Pensions"—Impenso et impendendo, was ever judged "a valuable consideration"—It destroys the Bill.
Mr Vaughan.] Any "Pension" that has quid pro quo,
is "valuable," which he would have allowed; but a
man may have one for going into France—As for the Pendrells, who were instrumental in the preservation of the
King after Worcester fight, would name them particularly, but would not comprehend all by a general word.
Sir Charles Harbord.] You must save the estate, that
is not the office, but not what is the office, plainly.
Sir John Birkenhead.] Moves for another person to be
exempted, besides the Pendrells, that helped the King's
escape at Worcester.
Colonel Birch.] Knows of no "Pension"—If other
persons had not served the King more effectually than
this person Birkenhead names, things had not been at this
pass—Let him give a list of names, and he will be for
Mr Secretary Coventry.] A man that has a title to an
estate, and has resigned it, will not you allow that?
Sir Thomas Osborne.] Lord Kinnoul had a right
in Barbadoes, and for his resignation the King has
given him one thousand pounds a year—Do you intend
that this Act shall deprive him of it, under the notion of a
"Pension?" It will not stand with your justice to do it.
Mr Garroway.] You have all things in prospect, not
in retrospect, but the scheme of your Bill is to take off
"Irish Pensions." That we may be rid of them, the
King may give them money instead, and be rid of them.
Mr Attorney Finch.] There are "Pensions" of several sorts; there may be for life on "consideration," and
some may be disabled from offices, where Pensions are
Salaries for executing of offices—Thinks that humanity
will be better for your reputation, than severity will be to
your wisdom, in annulling these Pensions.
It passed in the negative, and was thus amended; "other
than valuable and sufficient considerations."
On the Clause in the Proviso of "Offices of Inheritance."
Mr Powle.] Likes not the Clause of making a Deputy
ad libitum, to put out and in every week, if they please
them not—Would have the words, "at their will and
pleasure" left out, and have it, "as the King shall think
Colonel Birch.] A Deputy, the less dependence he
has, the better he does his duty—If beyond sea or sick,
it is fit the person should have his Deputy; but to do it
"at will and pleasure" makes it a more than ordinary
Sir John Duncombe.] A man may be ruined, and his
posterity, being an Office of Inheritance, since, by fault
of the Deputy, the office may be forfeited; therefore it is
reasonable he should appoint his Deputy himself.
[It was agreed to.]
The other part of the Proviso, "Untill such persons shall take
the Test, and subscribe in Chancery," &c. agreed to.
On the last part of the Proviso, "The Lords in Parliament
time, to take the Oaths and Subscription in the Lords House,
and out of Parliament, in the Court of Chancery."
Mr Powle.] The taking it "in the Lords House,"
knows not how proper that may be.
Sir Richard Temple.] "The Lords House" is a new
word; would have it, "Peers sitting in Parliament"—Would have "Lords House" out of the Question.
[It was amended accordingly.]
On the other part of the Proviso, "and those Subscriptions recorded," and on the Proviso "for persons beyond the Sea, or
non compos mentis, or any married woman, not till after the death
of her husband; persons at their return from beyond the Sea to
take the Oath, at or before Trinity Term, 1673."
Mr Attorney Montagu.] Would have it "four
months" after the said incapacity of taking the Tests.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] If they live always "beyond Sea"
will you not have them return? The Act may be too
[Proviso, the consequence of the last, agreed to.]
Proviso "For the Earl of Bristol, 16 July, 1669, a Pension
granted him in lieu of a Debt, expressed in his Patent."
Mr Powle.] In the former Proviso this is agreed to;
but is contented; Lord Bristol being none of those busy
men he hopes to meet with in this Act, and therefore
would agree to it.
It passed nemine contradicente; and the House would scarce
with patience let any man speak for it, but if against it, he
On the Proviso "of the office of Head Constable, Petty Constable, Headborough, &c. Steward of Court Leet and Baron,
County Court, or Law Court, &c. Forester, Keeper of a Park,
and Bailiff of a Manor."
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Would have them take it at the
next Quarter Sessions.
Sir Charles Harbord.] They may be so many thousand
people, and very inconvenient,
Mr Garroway.] Would have them take the Oath—If
people will refuse the Oath, let them forfeit a sum of
money, and not be wholly disburdened from Offices.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] About Westminster they will be
glad to have the Offices, that they may not make any
Presentment, and so have never any Presentments made.
Sir Richard Temple.] By "Bailiffs of Manors," not
meant that private men's Bailiffs should come to this
Colonel Birch.] "Bailiffs" may be Officers of Manors
to return Burgesses of Parliament.
Mr Powle.] Assures you he sits here by return of a
"Bailiff of a Manor."
["Bailiff of a Manor" passed in the negative in the afternoon.]
Lord Cavendish.] Much of this Session has been spent
to prevent the growth of Popery, and to take care that
money may be raised for the King's supply; therefore
would have his Majesty moved that it may not be disposed
of, nor managed by [the Lord Treasurer] a person* so
much suspected of Popery.
Mr Sacheverell.] You have been well moved—As the
case now stands, we have struggled whether Protestant
or Papist shall get uppermost—You are raising money,
and we know into whose hands it is to come; one whom
common fame renders one of the greatest favourers of
the Popish interest of any man, and how secure in his
hands we all know—Knows not how safe the King's person may be, when so considerable a sum of money shall
be in such a hand; and if neither the King nor kingdom
can be safe, we can do no less than move the King to remove such a person of danger from his presence, and such
a trust—Has no desire of ruining any man, but the thing
being of such importance, desires the King may be moved
Colonel Sandys.] "Common Fame" brought Lord
Strafford's fall—To the day of the death of the King,
the Martyr, he was troubled at it—Moves that we may
go off with all the calmness that can be, we being assured
of the King's goodness to us.
Sir John Birkenhead.] Consider this "fame"—The
person inclinable to Popish Faction—For that "fame"
the Archbishop of Canterbury [Laud] lost his life; but the
Papists rejoiced at it—This person can give you no more
assurance of his Religion than the Test—'Tis of dangerous
consequence to blast this person for rumour in the street,
and would have the motion go no farther.
Sir William D'Oyley.] Would have Reformation of
Manners, but no destruction of persons—You know his
behaviour here, and how bravely abroad; he need say
no more—The danger of him is not so considerable—The
King must know every minute sum; and the King concerns himself in all things of the Treasury—Let the Motion die here.
Sir Edmund Wyndham.] Justifies the Treasurer, as
to his religion; he has taken all the Tests in being; the
Sacrament he has taken with him.
Sir John Barnaby.] Hears only "common Fame"
that you are told of, and that is no ground—He sees him at
Chapel most Sundays; and would have the thing laid
aside and go to other business.
Mr Mallet.] This Motion proceeds from noble ends—He points not at the person, but the Motion—It is for
the disposing of money, and we are to see it well disposed
of; and now is the time to consider, whether you will
put this money into such hands—The person has not
been named, but described—"Common Fame" is infallible—(laughed at.) Consider, these jealousies cannot
arise out of nothing—Your money comes upon hard
terms now—No Parliament ever exceeded this in liberality—It is worth your enquiry how this money shall be
disposed of as you would have it—You do not act prudently if you put it into a person's hands that affects not
our religion—If there be violent presumption upon him,
you must secure your religion, and you will act as wise
men, and not furnish your enemies—For want of information he informs you, that the Treasurer said, in the
House of Lords, "that your Bill of Popery ought to be
spurned out of that House as a dirty Bill"—You ought
to look to your safety.
Sir Lancelot Lake.] "Common Fame" is a terrible
lie, you have given the King the money, and cannot alter any thing in it.
This Business passed no farther, than privately blaming and
reflecting on persons who engaged to second the Motion.