Tuesday, January 20.
Mr Sacheverell.] Complains of disorders in the Newark
Election, and has a Petition from the Freemen there, and
proper to be presented, when you come to the business
of the Election—By pretence of general words in the Act,
and by colour of some clauses, there is money raised on
the subjects, and not warrantable; the Justices would
not levy that money, and then to awe them, a printed
order was sent them, with pretence of the Judges opinion:
This done, they have gathered the money, to the great prejudice of the subject—Moves to have the Act explained,
in the point of recognizances for Alehouses, by a Bill.
Sir Robert Carr.] Some Members belonging to the
Treasury not being here, desires the business may be
waved till they come.
Sir Henry Puckering.] Moves that Smiths forges may
be considered in the same Bill.
Sir John Duncombe.] Would willingly have the clause,
for the recognizances for Licences of Alehouses, cleared. The Treasury has suspended several processes in Law; in
this business, in most countries, no scruple is made of it—As for that of Smiths, they are as able to pay for their
hearths, and they have as good a livelihood, as most persons in a town.
Mr Powle.] Judgment was given in Yorkshire against
the Smiths and other Forges, not upon the merits of the
cause, but for a defect in pleading.
A Bill was ordered for them both (fn. 1) .
[Debate on Lord Arlington resumed.]
Mr Hall.] It is now high time to come to a Question
about Lord Arlington; you have heard yesterday what
can be said in the business.
Mr Howe.] Is against the Question moved for—You
have the Articles of Treason against Lord Arlington, and
would proceed by way of "Impeachment."
Sir Francis Drake.] It is now the fifth day we have
been upon this business, and these Gentlemen will run
over all again, and make it the fifth hence; therefore
would proceed "to address the King for his removal."
Sir Nicholas Carew.] It is not for the honour of the
House to do what they cannot make good—The Witnesses are not ready, but in France—You may proceed to
the charge of Treason afterwards.
Colonel Strangeways.] "Impeachment" or "Address
to the King" is before you. Is glad to see the House so
tender of Religion (that includes property and all) and
obliged to part with goods and life for it, but would rather have ten nocents escape, than one innocent man
put out of the ways and means of justifying himself—The author of the Declaration, if known, deserves the
highest censure imaginable; for a few number of persons
to have extracted all the wisdom and power of the nation!
We entered into a war, but where was the advantage?
The French got towns, and prospered strangely, and what
got we? Neither port nor town. Would not charge any
man without probabilem causam litigandi. Arlington said,
"he concurred, but not to the Article of Popery"—That
Prince is unhappy that has Counsellors that do not oppose ill advice—Sir John Duncombe must be vindicated;
he had the courage to oppose the Declaration—Whether
read in Council, or his opinion called for—Arlington is
said only to be a Minister, and that he executed orders of
Council. In all this business, instead of others bearing the
blame, the fault is fixed on the King, and the King not
to blame. The King's Grants are many, and you ought to
punish the persons that pass the Seals—In all acts of honour, you reflect upon the King and he has the praise;
the faults are his Ministers, not his orders; but "the
Commissioners of the Admiralty shall not grant stores for
the French." Does the King understand all the navy-affairs? No one man can—He sat here when Lord Strafford was accused upon common fame, and believes
there was nothing—The House had leave to examine
Counsellors then, and all Strafford's friends; but at last
had recourse to Impeachment, which, though long, is the
surest way—Arlington's Articles may be taken pro confesso,
but for the main Articles of Treason, no Witnesses ready—If you go upon Impeachment, and the persons that
brought the Articles in have no evidence, the reflection is
upon the persons that brought them in—Suppose we
should desire his removal, and the Lords the contrary;
and then is the proper time to show reasons. And now
put what Question you please.
Lord Cornbury.] Proceedings would be unequal, if
not as with the other Lords. Here it is said, Should not
a man defend himself? Will any man tell him that Arlington does desire to be cleared that he was not in those
Counsels? Lauderdale was charged with such words,
and was the ground of your vote—Was any thing said
that Buckingham was guilty of that advice? Arlington
tells you, "he has met with a paper of Articles against
him, and from thence induced to believe a charge against
him," and appeals what any man means by doing his
country right? It is certain men's minds are uneasy,
and do expect redress in Parliament—Does believe it
the intent of some men to alter the Government—Appeals to you, what effect the Declaration had—Did not
that do it? Appeals to men's minds about Property;
the very ploughmen debated these things. Your discontents are still as great, and will you leave us in the hands
of those very men that have done these things? He is
one of those that are of opinion that you cannot do any
thing till these things are redressed—"Because Arlington
consesses these things, therefore it is the less evidence
against him," is very strange—Will not enlarge on his
Religion, but he might have made distinction betwixt
Protestants and Papists—He had so great a hand in all
these things, that there seems much more against him,
than either of the rest—Buckingham proposed the Alliance
with France, but Arlington promoted it—Six thousand
men were sent into France, and commanded by persons
obnoxious—Had there been money to have carried on the
war, Arlington would have done it without Parliament—Begs, that, if one be impeached, all may; and all things
to stop till finished, and though there are great affairs before you, yet all to stand still till these things be redressed.
Mr Boscawen.] Shall not extenuate, nor aggravate, the
charge against this Lord—Can any man show precedents
of impeaching a man in the House of Commons, out of
kindness? The regular way is for the Question "whether
to proceed upon these Articles as a ground of Impeachment." The summary way is the quickest way, but whether more honourable? One, that vindicated the Civil
Law, said, "it was much more summary than the Common Law. It would dispatch six causes in a morning."
The Common Law was tedious, but the safer way; white
powder kills and makes no report, and this is such a
way—He would keep up the dignity of Parliament, as
well as serve our present turn—Should the king ever take
into his Counsels any of those persons you have desired
should be removed, would not that make great discontent
in the nation?
Sir Robert Southwell.] Is of opinion to wave this way
of proceeding. Is for committing the Articles, in order
to an Impeachment—Thinks this House persuaded of
his Religion by his passing all the Tests; many conclude
a suspicion upon what fell from him here—Arlington told
you, "he was borne down in the Declaration by the
authority of a great person, whose judgment he had a
great value for, but, when otherwise convinced, was the
earliest man that persuaded the recall of it." Has heard
that thing imputed to Lord Clifford, who declared himself
the Author of it, and the sole Author, and did declare
he could maintain every word, syllable, and letter of it,
to be Law; but was of a better mind, he hopes, before
he died—It is hard that the living must answer for the
dead!—The entertaining Father Patrick in his house
was a demonstration of his disrespect and aversion to the
Church of Rome. Had any man of learning been with
him of that Church, it had been something; but
Patrick was a man of levity, that followed him merely for his hospitality, and much wine, and, it may be,
had not legs sometimes to go away—These are articles of
faith, as things unseen, rather than evidence—Would
have the Articles committed.
Sir Robert Howard.] Moves for a previous Question.
Sir William Coventry.] Has sat still these four days,
and not without reason—Thinks the King and Nation
concerned—Thinks it the greatest of the fears of the
nation, not without reason—Is it intended to leave these
miscarriages at the King's door? No; leave all things
clear there—The Lord Keeper said, in his Speech, "that
the greatest thing upon us, was to set the King right
with his people;" and he thinks it of greater concern
than haply Lord Arlington's being nocent or innocent—"Impeachment" is a perfect mistake, and no way with
your Honour; no end should be without fruit: What will
you impeach upon?—For having proposed the Alliance
and the War, and that done before the Act of Grace?—It was never a good time when the subject has been for
breaking and infringing Pardons, and therefore would
not do it now—It is but a reasonable and just thing for
men of business to be composed, in their minds, by general Pardons. It may be, witnesses, to clear such a one,
are absent or dead—Put the case, that those things concerning the war, &c. are pardoned (which he would not have
you infringe) consider that it is an Act of Grace, and not
of Oblivion; and whether those men are like to produce
better times, if still continued, leaves it to consideration—These are matters of charge, not Articles, till your
House has made them so. Though in Scriveners shops
called and writ so, they are no Articles—They are capital, and not capital; they are relating to "the embezzling the Treasury; revealing the King's secrets, &c.
and subornation of perjury"—Distinguish between crimes
pardoned and not pardoned; "subornation" is not pardoned—The Act of Grace says, "all treasons are pardoned, but such as are against the King's person;" but
nothing is said in this matter—A Gentleman said "it was
before the last Dutch war, and so pardoned;" but "subornation" is the only thing we can go to the Lords with, by
way of impeachment: The consequence, if impeached,
is, the Lords can proceed on nothing else; and then, Arlington being not found guilty of that, and no prosecution
any other way, (the Act of Grace excluding all this,)
you will lose the advantage of Arlington's own confession—Wonders to hear the advice of "impeachment;" the
evidence seeming to shrink, is to bring dishonour to the
House—Will it not be a great oversight for us to bring
matters to the Lords that we cannot proceed upon? The
Commons expect to be secured only for the future from
such counsels—Will you proceed on the charge of
"subornation of witnesses?" No; it is on things this
Lord has confessed—Shall we punish nobody here, but
such as have first invented treason and felonies? It may
be answered, "in another world they may be punished"—Upon the whole matter, would have your Question
put for "an Address to the King."
Sir Robert Howard.] Taking exception at being misrecited by Coventry—
Sir William Coventry.] Would not fail, in matter of
candour, to any man, especially to Howard—Asks his
pardon if he misplaced his words.
Mr Swynfin.] Will not speak to the Articles, nor merit
of the case; but what Question will you put? Would
not have a Question foreign to the Articles, but cl se to
them. The Question offered is perfectly foreign; the
Arguments, offered by Coventry, suppose a Bill; and
you consider whether you will go to the Lords: But determine what you will do with the Articles; first clear
your hands some way of them—"No fruit of impeachment, because the crimes are pardoned." He fully
agrees in the conclusion on these premises; but to say,
you would have persons impeached that have the benefit of
pardons,—as men of great employments will have pardons, that their hearts may be at rest. If you bring "the
war," &c. bring that as an allegation—Then it will be
known what opinion you have of the war—They that
manage the war, will help to make an end of it—As for
the King, it is thought this summary way is best for him;
the more public way of proceeding is best for the King;
you go to the King with nothing but a bare desire; if
the King removes him not, it tends not to your end; if
he does, upon bare desire, without cause shown, it is
hard; therefore would avoid all this—It would be a
Question, upon what Article? There are a great many.
The King then would see your reasons, and all people
Mr Powle.] Whatever you do against Arlington, would
have you just and regular—How to dispose of the Articles,
or whether to lay them aside or no, is not free, till determined—It is to prejudge a man before tryal; to whip a man,
and then try him for murder—Many Gentlemen conclude
Arlington by his confession here; it is hard to turn the
ingenuity of a man upon him. It consists not with the
honour of the House; but if you will make use of his
confession, his words ought to be taken and stated, to
avoid wresting them to another sense—"That he deserved
a statue." He said, "he thought he might deserve a
statue for preserving of Flanders." [That of the statue
mistaken] If you impeach, it is in his choice; he may
wave the Act of Grace, if he pleases. If he pleads the
Act, it will confirm you in your judgments to proceed
Sir Henry Capel.] Has known Arlington long, but
could never find his way of living other than with prudence, decency, and sobriety; this got the belief he has
of him. Those that know him, say, he does things freely, and like a Gentleman—He is no way obliged to
him—If he has been at the head of these things, let him
go, let him fall; "but if not at the first formation of these
monsters, still the executive part was put upon Arlington"—Why? "The Ambassadors were at his house." But he has
reason to know he was not at the head of these things.
Arlington was the first comer into the Triple Alliance; he
will not take one grain from Buckingham in it, but Arlington was instrumental; but yet, if you think fit to
have this person punished, then consider to square his
crimes with the Lords that went before him—Buckingham a Counsellor, Arlington a Ministerial Officer—Consider him, when concurring only with the Declaration—Consider his morals, and how he has behaved himself for
his parts and courage, and here, in the House, in an undisturbed motion—Some say his own consession is his condemnation; but as a Gentleman should speak the whole
truth, hopes we shall not make this use of it—The
Judges have a rule to go by; we have none; we may
mould and shape things according to reason; he will
never judge this man for any word he has said here—Says
it before God and you, proceed by Impeachment, and he
will give his affirmative; but upon the other Question,
his negative—If this be the way of your proceeding,
consider the consequence.
Sir John Holland.] Must bear witness for Arlington
in what he knows. August was twelvemonth he visited
Arlington. Being come to his house in the country, about seven miles from him, he thought himself obliged,
in good manners, to visit him; and did then crave leave to
ask his Lordship a question; we being engaged in a war, he
desired to know the reason of the prorogation of the Parliament. Arlington made answer, "That we were engaged
in a Treaty of peace, and hoped then for an issue of it;
should the Parliament meet in October, in case the
House should have resused or hesitated in it, the hopes
of the Treaty would have been lost. Betwixt that and
February, doubted not but peace or war would be; he
hoped, if peace, the House of Commons would be
gratified; if war, money, he hoped, would be granted
to support it." He then told Arlington, "He feared
he took not a good measure of the House, and these
arguments of war would fail, especially in his own
county (Norfolk) that is so poor. The Duke of Buckingham and Lord Clifford looked guilty, as the Promoters
of the war, and if ill consequences did arise, accounts
might be called for." He (Arlington) replied, "I thank
you for it, and do take it as an evidence of your kindness. I will promote peace all I can"—He heard from
London, soon after, that the Cabal was divided, whether the Parliament should meet, be dissolved, or prorogued. The Chancellor's, Arlington's, and Ormond's
counsels prevailed for sitting. He told Arlington, "He
was glad to know that he was for continuation of the Parliament." Arlington replied, "He wondered how his advice in Council should be made public;" but said, "he
ever was, and ever should be, of opinion, that we are
never happy but when the King and Parliament agree."
A person, that has these things planted in him, cannot
be dangerous—He thought it his duty to acquaint the
House with this.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Our country looks not after
"suborning of Witnesses," but things of greater moment—In the Impeachment, he will be proved to have
suborned two Witnesses against a Peer—Will you ever
think such a man fit to be near the King? And so you
may have the thing done by a Court of Justice. If the
Lords tell you, "he is pardoned," there is an end—Upon the total, here are Articles, and they are named
Articles, and the House is possessed of them; therefore
would proceed by "Impeachment."
Colonel Birch.] He has abundance of kindness for this
noble person; he sat yesterday striving betwixt his duty
and his kindness—If we must answer for any thing (as
some think we shall not) we must answer for a kingdom
that we are entrusted with—Gerrard, who delivered the Articles, told you, "his memory was short and the evidence
not ready," and removal is the Question, but other uses
are made of it—Some are against this way of Address;
and why? Three hundred years ago, in Henry VIth's
time, there was removal, and we were never willing to part
with this till now, and not excepted against—The effects of the Cabal these ten years are now manifest—If
imagined a weak man, haply (Arlington) would have
done these things harmlessly—He ever said, the Declaration would lull all the fanatics of England asleep, and
Popery would wake with them—As for favour to the fanatics, he wonders as it; they outwent him—Had he
thought Lord Clifford a Papist, or a favourer of them,
would not have had a hand in saving him—For one
thong he cut for the Presbyterians, he cut ten for the
Papists, and long ones too—Is at a stand at one thing,
we have had bad luck for some years; looks upon squanderers of money as the greatest enemies of the nation; and
whoever makes government heavy to the people, is neither a friend to the King nor them—We have spent, in
these seven years, more than two hundred years before—Twenty thousand pounds is now a minute thing, now in
a few years. In those times money was in people's purses,
and consequently in the King's—The course we are in has
wearied the kingdom of all ordinary ways of raising money—We were in a tale of a Triple League (which we paid
for dear) but in the middle of it was the French Alliance;
and "be sure effectually to break the King's credit, and he
shall be forced to do the thing designed"—The Exchequer
credit must be broken, and now our Government is
looked upon to signify little; whilst this was doing the
Parliament must be prorogued—God delivered you, not
the wisdom of this House—Had France seized Amsterdam, you had not been debating here now—He never
heard a reason why the French King went not on then,
unless the greatness of his neighbourhood might be apprehended, &c. The French then, at the Treaty with the
Dutch, were against us, and yet not one word proved,
some say; but he can say, that when the French were in
Treaty, before our Ambassador came over, we must not
take that advantage to treat by ourselves—The main
design is broken, but, by means of the war and alliance,
France has more tonnage and guns than we have, which
before they had not, nor skill nor strength to use them—Queen Elizabeth was great by being head of the Protestants, but we must join with the King of France, after his
breaking down churches; and above all, we must join in
an Article of "Popish Religion in every conquered town"—All these things went through Lord Arlington's hands;
and shall we continue the game in the same hands? Can any
man think that you intend to go through with your first
vote, if you "address not the King for his removal?"
Mr Garroway.] It is his duty to clear Clifford, his dead
friend, of what has been said against him—True, something will remain upon your books—Gentlemen despond
as to the Articles, and so no Impeachment; but is certain, when things come to be proved, the King will not
keep such a person about him—Would have the first
Question put, "Whether there be matter in the Articles
to ground an Impeachment upon?"
Sir Charles Harbord.] Is of Garroway's mind, that it is
unbecoming to speak ill of the dead—The paper brought in
has on the top of it, "Articles of Impeachment;" he
thinks it brought in as a charge. If such things are brought
against a Peer, you must debate "Whether to retain the
Articles, or no, as an Impeachment?"
Sir William Hickman.] Will you leave the thing, and
not say from whom the advice came?—There has
not only been a rumour, but vox populi, that this Lord
was of the Cabal—Rather opposition than concurrence
should have been in these Counsels—Is for seldom using
this power of common fame, but is for using it now, and
would have the same Question put as was for the other
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Conceives that "removal" ought
not to be the Question; the rule is, what is natural to the
Debate to be the Question; but when foreign to the
matter, out of doors—The Articles were read, head by
head, and this Question is quite wide from the mark—The Question is proper, some way or other, how to dispose of these Articles, whether they contain matter of
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Littleton moves a Question out
of all question, about the "Articles." The other of "removal" is of four days Debate; so long that Question has
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Does acknowledge he found the
Articles entered into your Book, and has heard, by a Question from you, that you would proceed, head by head.
Now he understands the Articles are laid aside, acknowledges he spoke wrong before.
Sir John Monson.] No man is questioned for these things,
if pardoned; he would not give example to break the
pardon—This is the easiest way of redress—Arlington
monopolizes all; this man is of the King's Council—This
Standing Army begot all our Grievances—This, not a
single act but a habit; it makes a man remarkable; the
Triple League, &c. and England but accessary, not
principal—Believes Arlington not a Papist, because a Papist would not do so weak a thing as to go by himself in
their business—Moves for "Address."
Mr Sacheverell.] The main Article ready for proof
will be only "subornation of perjury," and, by 5 of
Elizabeth, it is but forty shillings fine, half to the informer;
and may not the Lords say, "what have you to do to proceed upon differences betwixt our Members?" Moves for
"an Address for removal," there being no matter of
weight yet for "an Impeachment."
The Question being put, That an Address be presented to
his Majesty to remove the Earl of Arlington from all his Employments that are held during his Majesty's pleasure, and from his
Majesty's Presence and Councils for ever; it passed in the negative, 166 to 127.
Resolved, That the Articles be referred to a Committee, and
that they report what matter is therein contained, and can be
proved, that is fit for an Impeachment.
Wednesday, January 21.
[A Bill to prevent unjust Vexations by suits of Law, was read
the second time.]
Sir Thomas Lee.] This Bill is of damages; its purport
is, that when the damage is but forty shillings, Counsel
and Attorney it may be get twenty shillings; now it is
provided, that poor men shall not be vexatious, neither
would he have poor men undone and put upon the parish
by new charges—This of Certiorari is for tryal of causes;
Habeas Corpus for commitments.
[The Bill was ordered to be committed.]
Sir William Coventry: Upon a Motion for a Bill for the
more speedy conviction of Papists, and a farther Test for
officers, &c.] Some parts of this Bill will stick with the
Lords, in matters of privilege betwixt them and you—Would have a general Test, in one Bill by itself, betwixt
Papist and Protestant—In many places, the Justices of
Peace dispute how often they are to take it on renewing
their commissions, and doubts of the Members and
Commissioners for the tax—When once you have made
the Test, then in another Bill you may declare who are
obliged to take it, and the penalties.
Sir Thomas Meres.] The Parliament is the legislative
power and fountain of the Law; the Courts of Westminster are the executive powers—Would have those fountains purged.
[A Committee was ordered to be appointed to prepare a Bill.]
Lord Cavendish delivers a Petition from several masters of
ships, who were pressed and their seamen, contrary to Law, to
the great hindrance of their voyages. The Petition was read as
follows: "That the Petitioners have been ready to serve the
King, but Officers and Gunners have been pressed from their
respective charges as well as common men; and lately the persons of your Petitioners have been pressed as common men, and
some taken from their ships and charges—Praying a remedy."
Mr Wright.] Knows several that have been so dealt
with at Wapping, &c.
The Petitioners were called in and avowed their Petition, and
one showed a ticket whereby he was pressed.
Sir John Ernly.] When the Duke was last going out,
complaint was made of concealments; the press-masters
were sent for, and unless they brought in their number,
they were to be pressed themselves.
Mr Pepys, a Commissioner of the Navy.] If it is proved that one Master, one Boatswain, one Gunner, &c. that
made it appear he was a man chargeable with stores, or
accounts, [has been pressed,] he will be answerable for it
Mr Sacheverell.] Pressing is not, by Law, "taking
by force," but "upon hire."
Mr Pepys.] If the course be altered that has been,
time out of mind, in pressing, no fleet can be set out.
Sir William Thompson.] This is of great concernment to
Liberty and Commerce—But in such a violent manner
to take men from their occasions, murders and tumults
do follow, and it reflects on the King, that no persons will
serve him without being pulled and hauled by compulsion—Merchant ships are ready for their voyage, and their
men are pressed from them, and they lie two months for
want of men!—In foreign parts, though they press none,
yet they want no men, because they are well paid and
well used, with some advance money.
Mr Attorney North
(fn. 2) .] The abuse is fit to be examined;
he will only speak to the glance given at the Law. It
was never doubtful but that the King, upon an actual
Invasion, might press, but there is a discretion in all
things. Though the King may compell people, yet when
they take Press-money, they are within a capital law for
Sir Thomas Lee.] The Attorney tells you, "that
it is for the "defence" of the kingdom, not for "offence" to our neighbours." As for the abuse, it ought to
be enquired into; but for Pepys's telling you, "that they
were discharged, if appeared to be charged with stores,
or accounts, and not willing to serve," that is not all:
They have been pressed by land, and hopes that the Laws
concerning pressing may be stated, and then you may
declare your opinion; but is sorry that the King's name
is always used in these things.
Mr Love.] Has known Captain Morgan, in the Mediterranean, long: He and others were pressed, till they
could find two men a-piece, and were not discharged
Mr Child.] Is glad to hear that so few have been oppressed. He has conversed all his time with seafaring men;
knows of hundreds of masters of ships, &c. that have
been pressed, and desired to come up to adjust matters
with their Owners, and were not permitted by Sir Thomas
Allen, but under a hundred pound bond, to return. They
said, "being made Press-masters, they wore swords to
defend themselves from the Rabble"—Agrees for referring it to a Committee.
Mr Pepys.] Whatever the consequence be, will ever
bear about him speaking of Truth—Says it still, and
will be accountable, if any master of a ship, &c. ever
made complaint to the Navy-Board or Admiralty-Board,
wherever complaint has been made of pressing, that man
has been discharged—Press-masters and Captains themselves have been cashiered for irregularities in pressing—It cost the King twenty thousand pounds in mere advance-money, before the men went to sea—The Victualmasters have been constrained to press to carry victuals
to the Buoy of the Nore, though a harmless and blowless
Sir Eliab Harvey.] Merchants trust Masters of ships
with sometimes forty thousand pounds value, and they are
pressed, and not suffered to come upto complain, but clapped aboard, and carried away, and so they must hire strangers
ships to carry their goods, to the value of two hundred and
sixty thousand pounds in freight, and your ships lie by
the walls—Desires remedy in this.
Sir Thomas Meres.] There is great backwardness in
this sea-service, and all faults are laid upon the King—Observes these things by the way.
Sir Richard Temple.] Ships stay sometimes several
months for want of men, being pressed after their
voyage is finished, and sometimes are scarce able to bring
their ships into port, and all is laid upon the King's
Mr Sawyer.] Will say nothing to the "necessity" of
pressing men; the "legality is only within his sphere; unless in peine forte et dure, knows no other sense in which the
law uses the word "pressed;" but all statutes call it Prestmoney, and "Imprest" is an Exchequer term: Imprest
account of money delivered out to any particular use; a
soldier or Captain that took such money is said to be pressed, and soldiers either for sea or land, the law distinguishes not—"Tenure" extends only to land services,
as the marches of Wales, or the borders of Scotland—Whenever the King made war, he agreed with certain
Captains, by Indenture, for so many men; in the Exchequer there are multitudes of them, betwixt the King and
the Captains, the Captains and particular men. In the
Exchequer Register Book, Register 91—"Certificate, being contracted in commitiva with the Admiral." It appears,
the sea affairs were under the same contract with the
land—18 Henry VI. cap. 18 Penalty there, after contract,
if the soldier shall leave the Captain, or the soldier be not
paid by the Captain, severely punished—Then in Henry
VII's time, where they contracted with the King's Commissioners, not the Captain, there is the penalty if they
shall depart; but now that the Captain should pay them
is a mistake; they are not obliged to pay them, unless
in case of invasion, as in 1588—The necessity of the
time may justify it—In a war, "without advice of Parliament," it is a voluntary thing, and that voluntary
way of going to war the law prescribes—They extend
the Statute of Henry VI. to the marches of Wales,
and borders of Scotland—If the party will refuse his
"pressed money," he is not liable to any of those Statutes—The power of the Militia alters not the manner of
doing it; that is no consequence to press and carry men
beyond the seas. If an action be brought against a man
about pressing, the necessity excuses it in point of law;
but who must be judge of that necessity? Thinks some
course necessary to be taken in it, for the good of the
Mr Sacheverell.] The Statute of Charles I. for pressing
men for Ireland, plainly tells you, the King has no such
power, by the passing that Statute, but as specially given
[The Petition was referred to a Committee.]
Thursday, January 22.
Upon the first reading the Bill for uniting several Parishes in
Exeter, that Bill importing an imposition upon the subject, and in
effect repealing a Law in being, and leave having not been asked
to bring it in, it was withdrawn; and leave asked and obtained
to bring in another Bill.
Debate on the regulating the Elections of Members of Parliament.
Sir Robert Howard.] The expences of Elections are
grown so vast, that it goes beyond all bounds, the charges
considered in the country and here.
Mr Garroway.] It is dangerous for a man to be thrown
out for his hospitality in the country—These charges
arise commonly from Competitors that live in another
country—They must be undone by out-doing him that
comes from another country, with indirect intentions.
Mr Swynfin.] Some carry Elections by awe and force,
and some by ability to expend. Unless you do it to some effect, it takes up your time, and the thing will never be practicable—By the effect he observes of sumptuary Laws, he
believes you will have the same effect of this,—none at all,
but for an Informer to get by it, and no man else. The
examples of the King and Court would have more effect
than any Law you can make, and when you find Elections carried thus, and quash them here, that may remedy something. You having as good a Law now, which
does no good, therefore would forbear a helpless Law
as this is.
Serjeant Seys.] The penalty of a Sheriff, for a false
Return, is but one hundred pound; and in the spending
one thousand five hundred pound, the Sheriff may be
well gratified, by the party returned, for his fine.
Mr Boscawen.] The person elected ought to be resident in the borough or county for which he is chosen,
by the statute, but that is antiquated and out of practice;
but if you restrain it to persons resident in the country, to
be chosen in boroughs, or that have estates in that country, you may do well; though the old statute is really a
law, but out of practice—And this may cure all the evils.
Mr Waller.] Let us mend our proceedings here, and
we shall mend Elections—Times are much changed now.
Formerly the neighbourhood desired him to serve; there
was a dinner, and so an end; but now it is a kind of
an empire. Some hundred years ago some boroughs sent
not; they could get none to serve; but, now it is in fashion and a fine thing, they are revived. Some Bishops
and Lords for their poverty have been excused—It comes
by custom; there is no appeal from us, and we judge
Elections with impunity, and what we should take most
care of we take least.
A Bill was ordered in for regulating Elections.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Now the business of regulating
Elections is over, methinks it is like a man very sick
that makes new cloaths, or furbishes old ones; therefore, in the next place, would have you consider the
present state of the nation, &c.
Mr Powle.] Amongst the rest, would consider the
business of the foreign war, that hangs over our heads,
like a comet, threatening destruction; therefore would
have the present state of the kingdom, relating to the
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Would not have it confined to
the "war;" it may introduce "money;" would have
that as the Extreme Unction, and have Saturday for our
Sir Thomas Lee.] Is not afraid to talk of the "war,"
for that is the bottom of all our "Grievances;" all these
thoughts and talks of Popery are from it, and would
have the "Grievances" considered that we lie under by
reason of the "war."
Resolved, That the House will, on Saturday next, consider the
state and condition of the nation, and the Grievances occasioned
by reason of the war.
Colonel Birch.] The danger is not of jumping into
"money" so soon—Is not afraid of that, because we were
prorogued, and no need, he thinks, of "money." To
the end we may have field-room enough, consider the
"state of the nation by reason of the war," that we may
not be told of it, and bear the blame, if we should be assaulted by the Dutch.
Friday, January 23.
Leave was asked for bringing in a Bill for an imposition upon
coals for the better paving of the streets.
Sir Adam Brown.] The neighbouring counties of Hertford and Surry would not have it extend to such coals as
shall be spent in those counties who are to subsist by that
coal, those counties being serviceable to the city in bringing them provisions.
Mr Jones.] The city desires no more than such an imposition as may enable them to go on with the great
work of building the Churches, and the wharfs, and
pavements, now undertaken.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] The ornaments of the city
are unnecessary; he would not have either painting of
the faces or painting of the city, but would have the
tradesmen enjoined to return again into the city who are
planted in this part of the town.
Sir Charles Harbord.] Would raise a tax for this purpose, but never lay it upon Coals.
Sir Nicholas Ford.] Assures you, he was present in Common Council when the Sheriffs were ordered to attend
the Speaker. In answer to Carew's objection, that act of
Common Council is the act of the city only.
[A Committee was ordered to bring in a Bill, for paving and
maintaining the streets of the city of London, and enabling the
city to perfect and go through with the rebuilding of the Churches,
and other public works.]
Sir William Coventry.] Likes not a tax nine years
hence. Moves, that hearing that trade comes hither, and
that houses stand empty in the city (believes them empty,
and will be more) that there may be a restraint of buildings here; it will better the houses in the city, and those
here—Would have a Committee appointed to consider
what is fit to be done in this business.
Serjeant Maynard.] This building is the ruin of the
Gentry, and ruin of Religion, having so many thousand
people without Churches to go to—This enlarging of
London makes it filled with lacqueys and pages; therefore
in the Bill would prevent the design of enlarging either
the city or places adjacent, which else will ruin the
Sir William Coventry.] Would not have a beauty and
uniformity in the city, and a deformity in the King's
Court. He has no houses, nor intends to build any; (it is
not his interest:) He finds that parenthesis sometimes very
necessary in this House. The great houses of the Bishops
and Nobility, and all are put into small tenements. That
which is your aim is, to suppress the great number of small
houses for private profit, there being scarce any new built
for a Nobleman's or Ambassador's use. Such a thing may
be by restraining the roofs to so many feet high, which will
not turn to account for tradesmen to inhabit, and may
be useful for the Nobility and Ambassadors.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] An Address to the King, "That
no Licences be granted," may comprehend all Gentlemens opinions.
Sir John Duncombe.] At this end of the town whole
fields go into buildings, and are turned into alehouses
filled with necessitous people; and should a sickness come,
all the Gentry would go away and they would be left a
burden to the parish—The Council sends forbiddances,
and the man has laid his foundation, and where is the
Law to restrain it? The Lords of the Council cannot
remedy it. To stop this, confine them to build such an
height, twelve feet high, and four rooms on a floor—Refer it to a Committee, and let them judge what places
are fit to build in, and so proportioned, and that will
stop the increase of buildings.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] They may build in ancient boroughs, by the Law.—27 Elizabeth it is prohibited "within ten miles of the city of London, and not converting
great houses into tenements, and for building of great
houses;" but that Act was to last but seven years—An
Alderman showed him a Bill to this purpose, which
would provide against these Grievances.
Mr Garroway.] It is worth the honour of the House to
have these immense buildings suppressed. The country
wants tenants, and here are four hundred soldiers that
keep alehouses, and take them of the Brewers, and now
they are come to be Prætorian guards—That Churches
have not been proportionable to houses, has occasioned
the growth of Popery and Atheism, and put true Religion out of the land—The city of London would not admit rare artists, as Painters and Carvers, into freedom; and it is their own fault that they have driven
trade out of London into this end of the town, and filled
the great houses with shops.
Mr Sawyer.] Recommend these buildings to the Committee, and you must make it a nuisance.
[It was referred to the same Committee to bring in a Bill for
restraining any farther new buildings in all places within the
Bills of Mortality, except the city of London and liberties thereof.]
A Bill for relief of persons imprisoned by writs of Habeas Corpus
was read the second time.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Would have men committed to
legal prisons, and the Statute of 37 Edward III, "of
suggestions," revived. The suggestion must be signed by
the accuser, and left with the Secretary of State; and if
the suggestion be not proved, to undergo the penalties that
the person accused might, &c. that so a man may know
his accuser—It has been often complained, of late, that
Ministers of State impose upon his Majesty to sign Warrants of Commitment, and the subject can have no remedy, and the Ministers say, "it is his Majesty's Warrant;" a thing very indecent, and unfit to be done!
Mr Garroway.] Men to be carried prisoners out of the
land, is illegal—Would not have so many things in the
Bill, to overload and sink the ship.
Colonel Birch.] The manner of commitment must be
subsigned by somebody. Unless that be provided for, the
main scope of the Bill is voided.
[The Bill was ordered to be committed.]
Saturday, January 24.
The King in a Speech informed the Houses, "That the
States-General had sent him a letter by the Spanish Ambassador,
offering him some terms of Peace, upon conditions formerly
drawn up, and in a more decent style than before. Upon this
he desired their speedy advice and assistance, and doubted not
but they would take care of his honour, and the honour and safety
of the nation."
Sir Eliab Harvey.] This is a thing of great consequence,
and he would adjourn the consideration of it till Monday
Sir Henry Capel.] As most things are to be considered
comparatively, so this with the war.—Moves for Monday.
Colonel Birch.] If not for the King's honour and
safety, would advise; but to adjourn till Monday, upon
we know not what—He cannot imagine any advice that
we can give on Monday morning more than now, having
nothing to advise upon; and would know what these
proposals are, before we adjourn.
Sir Robert Carr.] Secretary Coventry is not come, and
had he been well, you would have been acquainted with
the particulars the King mentions.
Mr Secretary Coventry at last came, and said,] The
propositions from the States of Holland to the King were
accompanied with a Memorial from the King of Spain,
(which he presents to be read.)
The Speaker.] Says, he will read the States letter to
the King, if the House please; though it is not usual for
him to do so, but proper for the Clerk.
[The Speaker read it accordingly, as also the Spanish Ambassador's Memorial.]
Mr Secretary Coventry.] The case now is altered
from the Treaty of the French camp; no cautionary
towns, and as high a breach as ever we were—They tell
you of "pressing the men from Surinam with good
freight;" but who shall be judge of what is good freight?
They tell you not. It would be worth your thoughts in
it—"Money for Licences." When Lord Northumberland was Admiral, the Articles were as these now before
you—They must be otherwise worded, or you cannot
ground upon them.
Colonel Birch.] Would know something more before
we adjourn till Monday—From Edward the IIId's time,
"freedom of fishing by Law." Desires, that the "Licences for fishing" may be known, whether for the States
General or for particular persons uses?
Mr Garroway.] Hopes Gentlemen will consider what
they do. Here are copies of the Articles to advise upon,
and we had no hand in advising the war; (we allow the
power of Peace and War always in the King.) Desires, at
present, that we may not enter into the Debate before we
have transcripts of them, some of them relating to other
Treaties, in the dark as much as any thing else, (Country Gentlemen knowing nothing of them.) Then we may
come to the determination of this matter—Moves to adjourn till Monday—Is right in the King's power of Peace
and War, and the King, by this communicating, does
not resign that authority—Licences in 1 Charles, when
Lord Northumberland was Admiral. We never did as the
King of Denmark does in the Sound, when under a contribution to Holland—Amsterdam gave Licences; Holland
could not give Licences to their subjects to fish here.
Sir George Carteret.] Has seen Trump in Dunkirk, who
always struck his flag. Has been in the narrow seas alone,
and met two States men of war, that struck—When he
transported Lord Doncaster into Germany he had no flag,
only on the main-top-sail: Trump struck then. Lord
Northumberland made every buss pay so much, the States
men of war present, several years, and believes the money was returned into the Exchequer (fn. 3) .
Colonel Birch.] Some have kept correspondence
with the Dutch, and having heard Secretary Coventry say he was wersed in the Dutch paper, as others have
been, he went to good honest counsel, who informed him
of what he knows of the fishing, and other things.
Sir William Coventry.] If we should not be for Peace,
we should not please the persons we represent. Wishes
nothing may come to us about it. It is proper for the
Dutch to seek for it, and not we; and, for the fishing,
would avoid any disquisitions about it—Touches this by
the way to consider the nicety and importance of the
thing, that we may consider of it till Monday.
Sir Robert Howard.] Knows not what they mean by
the "British seas;" it is a doubtful interpretation, as
they make it, and he would adjourn.
Mr Garroway.] Would have no Order as to the papers,
but let them tacitly lie upon your table, and those that
will may take copies.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Rare example of entering any letters
into your Journal, but the King's! The Journals are as
public to every comer as to your Members—Let it be
on your table, for the present, and afterwards resolve
what you will do with it.
Mr Powle.] 2 Henry V. the league betwixt us and the
King of the Romans was entered on the Rolls; but
though that was, every thing is not to be entered. Letters and Petitions are not entered—Would not do any
thing to preclude our right to the fishing—Would leave
the consideration of it till Monday.
Sir Thomas Meres.] This is not the first time the House
of Commons has been consulted about Peace and War;
but would not have these entered till farther consideration, and is for Monday.
[The Debate was adjourned accordingly.]
Monday, January 26.
Mr Sacheverell presents a Petition from Mr Charles Muddiford
(fn. 4) . In May 1671 he was sent prisoner to the Tower, for
crimes done by his father; on condition of fifty guineas promised
he was delivered, and the next day set at liberty by Sir John Robinson, [Lieutenant of the Tower.]
The Speaker.] It is an Order, and the right of a Member, not to have a Petition presented against him, unless
he be here to answer for himself.
Sir Thomas Lee.] If the Member be not here, then the
Petition can never be presented against him, but he
ought to acquaint the Member.
Mr Sacheverell.] He has acquainted the Member with
the Petition; and now do with it as you see cause—Upon
your Member's invitation to drink a glass of wine with
him, he detained him prisoner.
Sir John Robinson.] Has been almost fourteen years
Lieutenant of the Tower, and this is the first Petition
against him—Muddiford has used malice as well as ingratitude towards him—Will give the House a true account of the business. Charles Muddiford pretended that
he had a grandmother lay dying at Chiswick, and his going to her might be three hundred pounds in his way.
Robinson told him he had not yet paid his fees, and would
not give him a discharge—He went to Lord Arlington,
who said he durst not go to the King about it; but the
King said, "Let him go for three or four days." When
he came home, he found him at an officer's of his, and
said, he would not be without leave for five hundred
pounds. Robinson told him he had no discharge, but
he might stay till sent for again. The King told Robinson he should be discharged when a new Governor was
sent to Jamaica—Robinson has seven witnesses to prove
that Muddiford said, he would return whenever sent for by
Robinson; but though he sent several letters to him to return, he answered none of them, and he could never see him;
but Muddiford went to sollicit his own discharge. Arlington reproved Robinson for enlarging him. Robinson said,
he was not discharged, and desired a warrant to take him
again. Soon after, Muddiford came to the Tower, and
some company being with Robinson in the hall, Muddiford sat some time and drank with them, but suddenly
slipped out and went away. Another time he came into
the Tower, and then Robinson apprehended him, and kept
him till he got his warrant for discharge. 'Tis two years
and two months since he was out, and, upon the whole,
he did not expect such a Petition against him; and will
make good all this he has said, and more.
Col. Strangways.] Sir Thomas Muddiford told him,
when he went to see him in the Tower, "That he was
much troubled that his son had broken his parole with
Robinson, having been very civilly used."
Mr Sacheverell.] Thinks it hard, when Muddiford has
undertaken to prove the Petition, not to appoint him a
day, as well as for the reputation of your Member,
Sir John Robinson.] Moves to have the privilege of a
Member to have his hearing in the House.
Sir Thomas Lee.] If the money was for a fee, lawful;
but if as to obtain his liberty, not justifiable. Would
hear it in the House.
Sir Thomas Meres.] What rate will the business of
the nation be at, if postponed to hear this in the House?
Would have it committed.
Col. Strangways.] It is not a long business, but of
short issue, and will quickly be ended—Would have it
heard at the Bar.
Resolved, That this business be heard on Saturday next in the
[Debate on the King's Speech resumed.]
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Consider, before you leave
the Chair, what you will proceed upon to make Debate
of. There must come objections, as well as answers, and
of great prejudice to the Crown. Whether, whatever
right the King has to what he claims of the Dutch, the
Articles are to be accepted at this time?
Mr Garroway.] The reason for going into a Grand
Committee, is the darkness of the thing, for more free
Debate. Coventry said, the last day, we must not go
hastily into things. If this be not before us, knows not
what is before us—If free and no restrictions, would
know the bottom. If any new instructions in the thing
to Coventry, would know only whether it be Coventry's
private opinion or instructions.
Earl of Ogle.] We are obliged to consider it, not
turned into a Committee, but in the House, as more reverent to the King.
Mr Sacheverell.] Since Coventry's Motion, is in more
doubt than before—It is not clearly before the House to
give advice whether to make Peace with the Dutch, or no;
not clear, whether the King craves advice in a joint, or
separate Peace, and so opinion not the same—If fairly to
consider the King's Speech, and what offered by the
Dutch, that states the case one way; the fishery not in
them: But if by the Spanish Ambassador's Memorial,
that states the case another way—Can say nothing till we
know whether the King means a "joint," or "separate
Peace." Cannot proceed, unless we know which.
Sir John Coventry.] The French League is so infamous,
that we cannot name it without odium; therefore seconds
Sir Thomas Clarges.] It is clear that the King intends a
"separate Peace"—"Has received something more suitable to him than before." The King shews mutual confidence. He says not, he has sent to Cologn, but he will
advise with the Parliament—It is clear to him, that there is
nothing before us but treating at home with you, therefore
would have no more sending to the King, but would
Sir Thomas Lee.] It is no hard thing, when the King
asks your advice, that you know what you advise him.
This treaty is but a project, and must be sent to Cologn to
be confirmed there, and then it must be a joint Peace.
As soon as it is concluded that the Parliament of England
hath consented to them as terms, it may be some help to
the Ministers that made the war, but none at all to you,
nor the King, and would have the thing cleared.
Sir William Coventry.] Would not perplex the hopes
of Peace for new objections. If so uncertain, it is proper
to send to the Dutch—The King cannot satisfy you; it
may be as large against the French King as any man, but
what have you to lead you to believe so? These proposals are handed to you by the Spanish Ambassador, and can
any man believe that the Spanish Ambassador would make
a good and advantageous Peace for France? Enough to
imply what the King's intention is of complying—The
King's disadvantage will be yours—Would you have the
King declare, that he has abandoned and actually resolved
to break the French League, before he is certainly fixed in
another? The consequence will be, the Dutch know your
aversion to France, and if any advantage in a syllable
can be taken by any Amendments, they have the
King at a good lock, and France will be absolved from
what they have done, and you show they have them more
at mercy than we have them—The opinion of the
French Alliance will seem for their sakes, not ours—If the
King stick by way of Amendment, the French will run
to them with all offers of Peace—The farther this is
opened, the worse it is, and sees not the advantage—He thinks it can be no other than a "separate" Treaty,
and would proceed to the rest of the King's Speech.
Mr Stockdale.] We are not now about Articles of
Peace—It is not proper for us to meddle with it.
Mr Garroway.] If we have Peace, hopes it will be a
sudden Peace—If we come to declare it here, we shall
never have opportunity to mend it—In answer to that,
if the Dutch could make Peace with France, you ought
never to have taken notice of it—There will not want
Agents for France in our Court—All the danger is from
thence—No man loves Holland, but for interest, nor
hates France, but as contrary to the English genius—If that
shall endanger our liberties and laws, if France be at liberty, and not engaged, what good will the Peace do?
France has armies and ships, and no place to vent their
malice upon but England.
Sir Robert Howard.] The arguments we contend upon
are suppositions, and not grounds—The King recommends
to you not the negotiation in general, but the Articles
for your advice; and we say, "What is your meaning,
Sir, separate Peace, or no?" When there is not a word
of the French in them, and handed to you by the Spanish
Ambassador—The King farther tells you particulars,
and "desires speedy advice, whether they be terms fit to
be embraced, or deficient"—Was ever a plainer question?
The Spanish Ambassador to be one of the Guarantees—The King believes nothing in them against his honour,
nor the preservation of the nation—The King tells you,
"he will embrace your advice." You are not confined
to any thing but "speedy advice"—Therefore lay no
obstacle, but go on.
Mr Waller.] The business of the day is the King's
Speech—Some Gentlemen have touched upon papers.
"The separate Peace." He shall confine himself to that—Plenus rimarum—Our sense will come out from us, as
well as the Lord Keeper's Speech—We spoke of France
as our enemy, and Holland as one with us, and the same
religion—We may easily have Peace of those men, and
wonders the Articles are so well—The King has done
what he never saw before; he has communicated Articles,
asked your advice, and made you, in effect, judges of
them—Amongst the Romans, Manlius Capitolinus's heart
was too great for his brain, and he would be King above
all the Senate—"Why do you make the people parties?
Make them judges!" and they followed him—See what
it is to make the people judges, and not parties—We
shall remember our honour and interest. Their labours
and their Alliances have made Holland and France rich
and great—If thieves are robbing your house, and you call
up your neighbours, and go to bed yourself, will they help
you again? Never to stand to our Allies, nor think of
them, is not for the honour of the nation.
Sir Thomas Meres.] The French did neither perform
their part at sea nor land, and lastly an Article, "the
French not to break with Spain;" they have broken that
Article with us and Spain, so that altogether, Alliance is to
be with the interest of the nation—They are offered to
us here as terms of "separate" Peace; you debate and
intend them as a "separate" Peace, he hopes.
Sir Charles Harbord.] Is not for sending to the King;
and the Peace is of great use as proffered—Moves for a
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Before the Speaker leaves the
Chair, would have some previous considerations—Here is
vast difference, when he considers—No aversion now to a
Frenchman, more than formerly to a Spaniard, on account of their greatness—By this separate Peace you secure all those fears; and should all these armies of France
be at leisure, we should be in more apprehensions than
ever—Considering the French infractions of Treaties,
there is no danger now of speaking out—Desires so far
to clear himself, as not to go upon presumptions, but to
know the whole matter.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] A strange message as ever
was heard! The King desires your opinion, and instead
of sending yours, you ask his—It becomes the King to
hear your advice, and then to declare his own—Had the
King taken any resolution, he had never sent to you for
your's—The King leaves the whole affair "separate,"
or "not separate," to you, and desires only your opinion.
Col. Strangways.] Would be sorry to make a false
step in so great a thing. You were angry, at first, that
you were not advised with, and now that you are advised
with—The French Alliance was of no advantage to us.
They looked on at sea, when they had the wind fair to have
engaged. An Ally, that banished the King his territories,
by Cromwell's desire! He made you raise an army, and
keep it here, to no purpose—It seems that the sense of the
House is for a separate Peace, but cannot go upon conjectures. It was once said, "give your money before
the Dutch post goes, and you have Peace." Desires no
more of that again. Two millions five hundred thousand
pounds were then given—He believes, the French have not
lost all their good friends about the King. Let us proceed
to give the King such advice as we never may be ashamed
to own—Desires to proceed barefaced, let what nation
soever be displeased at it—Would know upon what
terms; not what we imagine and suspect, but certainly
to know whether upon a "separate Peace," at a Committee.
Sir Henry Capel.] Would be sorry to differ for a
"Peace" or "separate Peace"—Would come to it, with
asking the King as few Questions as we can.
Colonel Birch.] Cannot believe that any line in this
paper tends to any thing but a "separate" Peace—We
think that the King has been drawn into this League
much to his disadvantage; but if this League has been so
destructive to us, is it not better to answer it here,
than to put the King to answer it? Would make it sure
before we leave it—To give your advice that a "separate" Peace is your opinion.
Sir George Downing.] Would not make intricate what is
plain—Nodum quærere in junco. As for the fishery, would
have no Debate about that: Next, if the King had said,
"here are terms," and nothing of the French Alliance—Therefore let us not start it: Many things are fit for the
King to say, when the Peace is done, which he cannot
Mr Swynfin.] Knows there is very great difficulty upon
us; your advice is desired; before you give any, you
must know what to give. He can tell you what he desires, but cannot tell you what he does not desire—Whether you advise for Peace, or no Peace, you engage the
kingdom deeply; thinks you should know our Allies,
and the Dutch Allies—It is necessary for you to know
how the Mediation stands; believes the King and Council know, but you do not. If upon a partial knowledge,
you may give a positive advice, so as to engage you, as
those in a ship are engaged, in every point of the compass. All he knows is, that he does not know how we entered into the War, and that you know the sad effects of
it; blood, and treasure, and loss of trade—Thinks, you
know a Peace grateful, but to give advice upon propositions and circumstances we know not, would leave it to
the King and Council, who correspond all the world
Mr Powle.] Thinks it dangerous to expose ourselves
to the good-nature of our enemies, and breaking with
our allies—By this advice, the King will know how
the nation is affected, and when that is stated, those that
manage the thing will inform you how things stand, at
a Grand Committee.
Mr Harwood.] Wishes that the King's prerogative
of making War and Peace had engaged him in a good
Peace, as well as an ill War, without the advice of Parliament—Powle said, "Not part with this Alliance though
ever so bad"—Differs from him in that, though he does
not usually do so.
Lord Cornbury.] The Debate is, "Whether we should
send to the King, or not." He is satisfied "not to send
to the King." Thinks it a disadvantage to the King,
for this reason, that such persons are near the King that
wish well to the French alliance. Would not send to the
King, as they may persuade him—Would only consider,
whether these proposals before you are not a ground
Sir John Monson.] Shall say nothing of the consequence of the War, or the Alliance, that we may give
such advice as may be for the honour and safety of the
nation—"A separate Peace!" Change of words does
often change substance. We may be drawn into the
War by them, and, by consequence, a vote of lives and
fortunes to maintain it.
Sir Charles Wheeler.] If we like not the terms proposed, the King hopes we will get him better, and that
is no other way but by war. It is the intention of the
King to leave it absolutely to you, and would therefore
have the Speaker leave the chair.
Sir William Bucknall.] Knows, that, as the case stands,
the King is not satisfied with the War from the beginning, and the unprosperousness of it—We must know
how all things stand with us as to our Alliances—By the
Committee, what has not come out may come out.
[The Question being put, Whether this House, before they
proceed in the farther consideration of his Majesty's Speech, will
make an Address to his Majesty to be informed, whether the
advice that is expected, is to relate to a separate or a joint Peace;
the Question being put, that this Question be now put, it passed in the Negative.]