House of Commons Journal Volume 2
27 October 1641

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1802

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'House of Commons Journal Volume 2: 27 October 1641', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 2: 1640-1643 (1802), pp. 295-297. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=5320 Date accessed: 26 July 2014.


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Die Mercurii, 27 Oct. 1641.

PRAYERS.

Bailing a Prisoner.

ORDERED, That Tho. Bough, now a Prisoner in the Serjeant's Custody, by an Order of the One-and-twentieth of this Instant, shall be bailed forthwith.

Wool, &c. Trade.

The Order for resolving the House into a Committee, made the Two-and-twentieth of this Instant, to debate the Particulars of the Trade of Wool and Currans, was this Day read.

And accordingly, after some Debate of the Particular of Currans, in the House, it was resolved into a Committee: And

Mr. Speaker left the Chair: And

Mr. Hide was called to the Chair.

Mr. Speaker reassumed the Chair.

Mr. Hide reports from the Committee appointed to consider of the Two Particulars, concerning the Trade of Wool and Currans, that the Committee thought fit, that the Importation of Currans should be inhibited; and have appointed a Sub-committee to that Purpose, to draw a Bill: And they likewise thought fit, that the Committee appointed for the Examination of the Petitions and Complaints against the Merchant Adventurers should be revived.

Resolved, upon the Question, That Mr. Glyn, Mr. Serjeant Wilde, Mr. Whitlocke, Sir Jo. Harrison, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Rolles, Mr. Vassall, Captain Rainesbroughe, and Mr. Spurstoe, shall draw a Bill to inhibit the Importation of Currans into this Kingdom: And to present the same unto the House.

Wool Trade, &c.

Ordered, That the Committee appointed to consider the several Patents granted to Merchant Adventurers, shall be revived, to sit on Friday at Eight of Clock, in the inner Star-chamber: And they are likewise to consider of the Condition of Wools, either growing, or imported; or any thing else that may be inconvenient or prejudicial to the Advancement of the Prices of Wools.

Ordered, That Mr. Lisle shall report the Bill of Wools and Wool-fells on Monday Morning next.

Bishops Votes.

Ordered, That the Committee appointed to prepare Reasons for the Bishops to have no Votes, &c. do presently withdraw, to perfect those Reasons: And Mr. Wheeler is added to that Committee.

Committee to meet.

Ordered, That the Committee for Repeal of a Branch of a Statute of 3° Jac. do meet To-morrow at Eight of Clock, in the Treasury-chamber.

Committees.

Ordered, That no Committee whatsoever shall be revived to sit, without a new Order from the House: And that no Parties or Witnesses shall attend without new Summons.

Mr. Palmer, Mr. Whitlock, are to draw up an Order, according to the Sense of the Order above; and to present it to the House.

Business to be considered.

Ordered, That the Impeachment of Justice Bartlett shall be read To-morrow Morning; and the House enter into Consideration in what manner .. proceed in that Business: And the State of the Money to be taken into Consideration on Friday Morning.

Parliamentary Protections, &c.

Mr. Reynolds reports the Business concerning Protections, Privileges, and privileged Places, &c.:

"That the City of London did heretofore present a Petition, in the Name of the whole City, complaining of Protections and Privileges claimed by Members of both Houses, and by the King's and Queen's Servants; and, having no Redress of their Petitions, they called a Common-council; and, upon a long Debate among themselves, they did agree unanimously that this Grievance was greater and more prejudicial to the City, and the whole Kingdom, than that of Salt, Soap, Leather, and Ship-money: Thereupon they did agree to address themselves, by way of a Second Petition to this House; and That Petition was referred to a Committee, to regulate Protections; this was 6° Julii last: And during the sitting of that Committee, they attended there Two or Three Times a Week, and presented a Book in Folio of the Members of this House that have granted Protections; and did present the Names of those of the King's, Queen's, and Prince's Servants, that are protected; upon all which they grounded their Complaint: Which Complaint was there presented in Writing, and it was the Opinion of the Committee, that it should be read in the House, at the Time of the Report; being Reasons tendered by the Committee appointed by the Common Council of the City of London, against Protections, Privileges, and privileged Places, &c. Upon the Reasons mentioned in that Paper, and upon other Considerations; and after long Debate, and being a tender Point to trench upon the Privilege of Parliament, they proceeded unto these Two Votes, which they commanded me to report."

"1. That all the Members of this House should be pleased, during the Pleasure of this House, to wave all Protections for their menial Servants, or others."

"2. That, during the Pleasure of this House, all the Lands, Estates, and Goods of every Member of this House, should be liable for the Payment of just Debts."

The Reasons tendered by the City against Protections, Privileges, and privileged Places for Debtors, were read.

Ordered, That the Committee for Protections shall draw up a Bill, concerning the Privilege of Parliament in Point of Protections, according to the Debate of the House this Day in that Point; and present it to the House.

Mr. Lisle, Mr. Whitlock, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Hide, Mr. Glyn, are desired especially attend that Service this Afternoon, at Four of Clock, in the inner Court of Wards.

Bishops Votes in Parliament.

Mr. Pimme reports the Heads of the Conference to be desired with the Lords, concerning the Suspending of the Bishops in general, from giving Votes in the Bill, intituled, An Act for disenabling all Persons, in Holy Orders, to exercise any Temporal Jurisdiction or Authority; and from suspending the Thirteen Bishops from giving any Votes in Parliament.

The Heads, as he reported them, were put to the Question; and assented unto.

Mr. Pimme and Mr. Solicitor are appointed to manage this Conference.

Sir H. Vane is appointed to go up to the Lords with this Message;

To desire a Conference, by a Committee of Both Houses, so soon as may stand with their Lordships Conveniency, concerning the Bishops.

Mr. Pym reports the Heads for a Conference to be had with the Lords, concerning the Excluding of the Thirteen Bishops, formerly accused by this House, concerning the new Canons, from their Votes in Parliament; and for excluding all the other Bishops from their Votes, in the Bill to take away Bishops Votes in Parliament.

1. That they stand charged with a Breach of Trust, of the highest Trust, against the Prerogative of the King, against the Privilege of Parliament, against the Propriety and Liberty of the Subject, and the Peace of the Kingdom; which are the Jewels deposited under the Trust and Safeguard of Parliaments. And that all these have been broken by them, is voted by the Lords, in their Votes concerning the Canons; wherein they have concurred with this House. That these Persons have been Parties to the Breach of this Trust, will appear by the Journal of the Convocation, which is now in the Country, and may be sent for: and the Entry of the Book is, that these Thirteen Bishops were Parties, and did confirm and subscribe these Canons: That therefore it is hoped by the Commons, that those, who have assumed unto themselves a Legislative Power, whereby they have, as much as in them lay, rooted out the Foundation of Parliaments, that they should have no Interest in the Legislative Power at all for the future: Which is the First Reason that they should be suspended from their Votes in Parliament.

2. It is very fit they should be innocent Men, and faithful Men, that should have so great a Trust; much less, Delinquents of so high a Nature; the Heinousness of whose Offence tends to the Subverting of the Laws of the Realm: And therefore not to continue their Votes in Parliament: And to present to the Lords a Copy of the Votes of both Houses concerning the Canons.

In the next Place, to present unto the Lords, Re/?/ for the Suspending of the rest of the Bishops Votes, in the Bill to take away their Votes in Parliament.

1. Because they have no such inherent Vote, Right, nor Liberty of being there, as the Lords Temporal, and Peers of the Realm have; for they are not Representative of any body else, not of the Clergy; for then they were twice represented, by Them in the Lords House, and by Those in the Convocation House. The Writ is to elect Two Clerks, ad Consentiendum, &c.: Besides, none are there Representative of others, but those that have their Suffrages from others: and therefore the Clerks in the Convocation do represent the Clergy.

Next, they have not the inherent Rights of Peerage, as the Lords have; because, in some Things, they cannot do that there which the Lords may do. In Matter of Blood they have not Liberty to be there; which could not be taken, by any Canon, if their Rights were inherent.

Next, if they were Representative of the Clergy, as a Third Estate and Degree, which is thus, no Acts of Parliament could be good if they did wholly disassent; and it appears they have disassented, as in the Act for the Book of Common Prayer, in Queen Elizabeth's Time; and yet the Act is good; which could not be, if they were a Third Estate.

Next, that the King may hold his Parliament without calling the Bishops at all; which hath been adjudged by all the Judges of England, 7° H. VIII. occasioned by the Convocation citing of one Dr. Standish for Words: And all the Judges of England did then declare, the King may hold his Parliament without calling them at all.

25° E. I. In respect the Prelacy would not agree with the rest of the Kingdom, in granting a reasonable and necessary Aid and Supply, they were excluded their Votes.

35° E. I. In the Parliament at Carlile, for it will be brought to this, that when themselves were concerned, they were excluded their Votes, for, before that Parliament, an Act passed concerning several Oppressions done by the Abbots and Bishops, upon the interior Clergy of the Kingdom, by Purveyance and Prices upon Wheat, &c. who collected Six or Seven Acts more, all to this Purpose, concerning the Carriage of the Prelates to the inferior Clergy. This Act was long in Debate; but, 25° E. I. at Carlisle, it is thus; "that the King Habito tractat, &c. with the Earls, the Barons, and others the Nobles,&c. have agreed to this Act of Parliament:" Now the Bishops did not consent unto this; for, if they had, they should have been named before the Earls and Barons; for the Degree of Nobility, in all ancient Records, is Prelates, Earls and Barons, &c.

The next Record was in E. III. Time, something in Treaty concerning the Cardinal and the Clergy; and those Acts are expressed to be, with the Consent of the Earls and Barons, and others of the Laity; and that doth exclude them (Memorandum, Here to desire the Three Records themselves to be read; which Three Records do all concern the Clergy, partly for Provision of Livings, and other Expences to Rome, and beyond the Seas): And to all these Three Acts the Assent is in these Words, "by the Earls, Barons, and the other Lay-people." So none did assent but those that were Lay-people; and, in the several Orders and Degrees of naming them, they are omitted, being always in the First Order: For, if they had voted, then the Rule should have been entered, that it was agreed by the Prelates, Earls, and Barons.

R. II. cap... There being Provision the Pope should not make Presentation, and that other men should not present alone to their own Livings; then, the Petition of the Commons was assented unto by the King, and other Lords Temporal. Then afterwards 7° R. II. (a printed Case there) the same Question comes again, concerning the Clergy; and it is recited, it was assented unto by the King and Lay Lords.

Bailing a Prisoner.

Ordered, That Timothy Hutton, Curate of the Parish of St. Giles without Cripplegate, now a Prisoner in the Serjeant's Custody, by Order of this House of the 26th of this Instant, shall be forthwith bailed, upon Security given to attend the Pleasure of the House, at such Times as they shall require.

Answer from Lords.

Sir H. Vane brings Answer, that the Lords have taken the Message into Consideration; and will give a present Meeting, as is desired.